The Power of YES! - How Others Helped Identify True Passions | Marisa Eikenberry

[Matt Gilhooly]
Maybe you can kind of set the scene of like, how you were living and what you were doing to get to that point of that shift that's put you in this new direction, new industry.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes. I fell into podcasting by accident, but I love it. Everything kind of have led up to me doing it. So originally I went to Ball State University for a telecommunications degree. I'm pretty sure they call it a media degree now. They just changed it recently. But essentially I was going I wanted to be a sound engineer, which is funny now because I do podcasting and stuff. Yeah.

[Matt Gilhooly]
What area do you want to do?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I wanted to do music. So, fun fact that you do not know about me, I used to be an independent country music artist.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Oh, that's amazing.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah. So I was out of music by the time I was graduating high school. And it was like, you know what, I still want to work with music. I'd love to work with sound. Like, that would be super cool. And so it's like, I'm going to go to Ball State University because I live in Indiana, the best Tedom school in the nation and definitely the best one in our state. So I went there. And the way that the Tecom program works at Ball State, I presume it still works this way, you have a production degree and you go into intro audio classes and intro video classes, and then you kind of decide what you're going to specialize in. So for me, I started off thinking that I was going to go into audio. In my very first Teecom 101 class, I had Dr. Joe, who I'm still connected with and still talk with, and he had all of us make a website, just something really basic that we could showcase and show for internships and eventually jobs and all that kind of thing. So, first semester, freshman. Okay, let's do it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
How long ago was that? Just so I can get an idea of what that website might have looked like.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So I use Wix, if that helps. Yes, I think it was Wix. It may have been weebly. It's been a while. So I wasn't even quoting yet. And this would have been probably September, October of 2010.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Okay.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So I made this website and he had all of us in that class schedule a oneonone meeting with him just to say, OK, what do you want to do in the Teecom program? How can I help you? Like, that kind of stuff. And while we were talking, he was like, okay, so you want to do sound? And I said, yeah, I really think that would be cool. He goes, what's your experience with sound like? Have you been behind a board before? And I said, no, I've been the one in front of the mic. I've been in the sound studio, not, you know, behind the glass. And he was like, OK, like that's not that it's impossible, but he was like, there are a lot of students in here that have had a lot more experience. But he was like, but your website, you know what you're doing here? I was like, okay, what do you mean? And, you know, and I've been a techie for a long time. I'm a bona fide geek. Like, I'll admit it. And I actually did an internship with the information technology department at the school that I graduated from the semester before I worked with Drupal at that time. So I kind of understood a lot of the different stuff with websites without even knowing how to code yet. And I'm not sure I really realized how much I had learned. So he said, you should go into web development, forget sound, go into our emerging media program instead. And because I was like, you know, people already know how to code websites and stuff, he goes, we will teach you. You already know the basics. We will teach you.

[Matt Gilhooly]
That's so interesting.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So I actually graduated with a web development degree. Well, still TCOM, but inside of the emerging media platform and thought that that's what I was going to do. OK, great. I had some intro video experience, I had some intro audio experience, but I figured I'm never going to work with that again. And lo and behold, I use everything in my degree now. That's amazing.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Before you go there, it's so interesting to me that your instructor okay, so you make this website, right? I'm sure it was amazing, right? But it was okay. It's interesting to me that he was like, to your point of not being able to code yet or not having those skills. And he's like, we'll teach you yet. When you said you wanted to do sound and you didn't have those skills, he was like, no, leave it.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I think what it may have been was that I had some instinctual stuff with the web development that I would not have had inside of an audio degree. And I think that's what made it a little different because you're right. Like, it does seem really weird. Like, you know, you're far behind here, but we'll teach you this. But I really think that that's part of what it was. And admittedly, as a woman in tech, there was this whole idea of I can't learn how to code. I'm a girl. I mean, it's stupid. Like, now I look back at it, I'm like, why did I ever think that?

[Matt Gilhooly]
Because you were there.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
But there was a little bit of that. Yeah, but you know, when you're 18, that's terrifying. And I felt like the curve to learn was actually so much steeper to do web development than it was to do audio. And it turns out for me, like, it wouldn't have been and learned HTML and CSS and PHP and did all that kind of stuff. And so it wasn't as hard of a leap as I thought it was going to be.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I think the connotation with coding in general can seem scary to a lot of people. Whether I mean, some of it, it's very difficult. Right. I'm sure there's a lot of intricacies that you need to know when you're coding, but just the idea of it without any conception is like, that's so scary. I don't think I could ever do that. Did you focus more on the development side or the design side, or was it kind of a mixture of both?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, so I focused more on the development side. That's where my classes tend to be anyway, so it worked out really well. I can do some design stuff and depending on the website that we were working on, like, yeah, you're technically doing both at the same time, but really it was about the code for me more than it was anything else.

[Matt Gilhooly]
So it's like a usability focus. A little bit more than aesthetics.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, a little bit. It was more like, let's find out how CSS, which helps to style a website, let's see more how this works in general. Rather than necessarily being like, let's create the best looking website ever, like, it was really more about functionality.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Very interesting. And you enjoyed it as you got further into it, were you just like, this is the right path? Did it feel right?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, actually, the very first class that I ever sat in, I was like, this is it. Why did I ever think that I couldn't do this? Speaking of CSS earlier, so for your listeners that don't know a styling sheet inside of a website, it's usually one sheet, and you basically make all the style decisions. So what font is going to be on the website? What's the background look like? What color are all the headlines? You're going to make that instead of one file? Well, our teacher that year, that semester rather, he was talking to us about, okay, you're going to make a one page website. I am an overachiever by nature. I'm a self proclaimed geek. Like, I just I went all in, man. And so I was like, one page website? I'll show you. I'm going to do the whole thing. And I made a CSS page for every single page of my website because I didn't know we had not been taught that lesson yet, that it is cascading across all of the websites right. Or all of the web pages. And so, yes, I was a little extra already. And I think too, part of it was a lot of the other people in my classes, they weren't there to be web developers. They were there to learn how to make a portfolio website for their film career or their audio career or something like that. These were film and audio students, whereas I was like, no, this is what I want to do. And I think for some of my other classmates, it became very apparent that there was that distinction. And admittedly, it was really fun as a sorority woman to walk in with my letters and a bow in my hair and have some of these guys in the classroom be like, oh, great. Like, we have a girl in our coding class. And next thing you know, like, teachers asking questions and I'm the only one that can answer them. So, admittedly, that was a little fun, too.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. And you know what's interesting to me, too, is when I was 18, I had zero idea of what I wanted to do when I walked into college. I had zero idea when I left college, to be frank. So it's really interesting to me that you went in, you know, having a passion for something or thinking you had a passion for that direction that you wanted, but then also having the wherewithal to understand what your instructor did you say Doctor Joe?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, his last name is Polish, so we just called him Dr. Joe.

[Matt Gilhooly]
But having the wherewithal to take what he said and then accept it and kind of move forward with it, which kind of, you know, has dictated the rest of your career thus far. Right?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah. I think for me, I never thought about the idea of anything tech related as a career. I've always been very techoriented. I've always been good with computers. I was that weird kid in my second grade class that had an email address at seven. This was not normal, especially in the late nineties or late 2000s. Right. And so I've always been a little tech oriented. And I think him seeing that, recognizing that, and seeing a talent that I didn't realize I had was really motivational for me. And I worked with him a lot through different projects and stuff at my time at Ball State, and he still teaches at Ball State. He left for a little while while I was still there. I think he saw something that I didn't even see in myself, and that's what made it motivating for me.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And so here's the point in my podcast where I tell you that's probably one of your life shifts is that this person that stepped in and was like, hey, look at this road. Here's your opportunity to change your life. And so you went through school and you graduated with Web Development Focus.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes. So I did that, and immediately after school, I started working for the Kevin I. Canary Group, which I still work for now. And I was hired to be a web developer, specifically in WordPress. And I knew how to do it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
People getting hired for the things that they went to school for.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Right. And right out of school.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yes. You're checking all the boxes overachiever, I.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Hope, you know, so that's what I went in for. And pretty early on, I work for a small business, and so we all have to wear a lot of hats. No big deal. Totally fine. So pretty soon it was like, okay, since you're in the office, can you help record some of our YouTube videos and stuff? Okay, no problem. Turn on the camera. Go. Laughed a little bit because it was like, oh, you know, I was in an intro video class and now I'm using video now and thought that would really be the end of it. So I graduated in 2014, started my job the Monday after I graduated.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Wow.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, I wasted. Probably not the best plan, but it's what I did. And in 2016, well, actually, let me back up. I had never heard of a podcast. When I first graduated college, I didn't have a smartphone, so it wasn't like a thing that I had easy access to. And my now husband but boyfriend at the time, he lives 3 hours from me and so obviously I want to go visit him as much as I could and vice versa. But I had this moment of, man, I can't just listen to music for 3 hours every time. Right. There has to be something else. And some time between the time I graduated and the time that I started driving up there, I had heard about podcasts and it was like, okay, early on you hear people talk about podcasts and it seems almost pretentious in a way while I listen to a podcast but you don't kind of thing. And I hated that.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I felt the same way.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, okay. So it stopped just me. So I was like, well, I had a smartphone then, so it's like, let me open it up, let me check out this app, let me see what's available, and this podcast doesn't exist anymore. But I started off with a podcast called Getting There. The whole idea was they were in their early twenty s and they were like, you know, we haven't figured things out yet, but we're getting there. And I loved it. And I was listening to that on my way up to go see him. And so I already started getting this idea of, hey, podcasts are really cool, and found some others that I listen to, some of them I still listen to today, and just really enjoying the medium as a listener and telling everybody I could good about them.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And did you start to feel less pretentious about it?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Oh, yeah. Well, because once I realized that okay, there's a lot more than just true crime and cereal out there.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Cereal was definitely the first one that I binged, I think like the first type of podcast that I heard and stuck with. Which as we're recording this, there's a.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Lot of news about that.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, they just released another episode talking about the person that they were covering getting out or having their conviction taken away. Dedicated podcast can change the world.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
And yes, there's definitely a lot about that. And I think I'd heard of Serial, but I didn't actually listen to it until much later in 2016. My boss, Marisa Eikenberry had decided if we're going to do this leadership thing, which he's been doing leadership development, leadership training for, well, we're coming up on 29 years now. The big thing was about thought leadership. He's written books, he's written blog posts. And Podcasts are really starting to kind of come up a little bit for some of these smaller companies, or smaller names, as it were. And so he's like, what do we need to do to start one? And I think I was one of the only people on the team that even listened to Podcasts and knew what they were. So I was already part of that discussion about, okay, what do we need to think about? The more that we did it, it was like, well, you're the only one that has audio editing experience, so I had to remember what I had learned.

[Matt Gilhooly]
In 2011 in your one class.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Exactly. Yeah. And I was using Pro Tools then and I'm using Adobe Audition now, so there was already a difference. Right. So I was like, okay, quick and dirty, how can I figure out how to do this? So that way we can produce a podcast and started it, then we launched it in July of 2016, I believe, two weeks before I married my husband overachiever right. And moved to a new city and then started working remotely full time, all within the span of like three weeks.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Perfect.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So that already started it. And at the time, we were releasing that podcast once a week, and all I was doing, I say all I was doing as if it was nothing, but I was editing it, I was putting it on Lipson. I made the website. I post the show notes to the website as well, and that's still something I do. Now, the addition that we have is we've added a video component, which is not something we originally had. We also do a lot of remarketing clips, that kind of thing, or trying to anyway. And then in 2019, my other coworker, Guy Harris, who is a communications expert, said, okay, I'm going to try to start a podcast about communication and leadership. And let's see how this goes. And the difference between Kevin's Podcast and Guys Podcast is kevin's is a guest centered podcast, just like this one. And Guys is really more him speaking about a particular leadership communication topic. So he records his on Audacity and then sends it to me and I edit it and all that kind of stuff there too. So we started that in March of 2019. So I was already now doing two at the same time.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I can imagine.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
And still a web developer, by the way, and I still do tech support, right?

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. You're doing your regular job.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes. I admit that I've been very lucky in this industry and that I'm paid to do the podcasting. Like, maybe I realize that that's very abnormal, especially in the indie podcasting field. And then one of the other things that we do too, is we teach people how to work and lead remotely. We've been doing that for over ten years. Kevin has had a team like that for over 20 years. And back in, I want to say December of 2021, I was talking to Wayne Termel and said, okay, you used to have a podcast. You're about to come out with another remote leadership book. When are we starting a podcast? Not necessarily we, but when are you starting a podcast?

[Matt Gilhooly]
Because you're an overachiever and you wanted more to do at work.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Bingo. And as if I didn't have enough to do right. And at first he was like, you're not serious. And I'm like, I'm literally volunteering for more work.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, sign me up.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I'm serious about this because I believed in it. I believed in the way that Wayne could give out information and I believe in our mission and what we're trying to do. And I know how powerful podcasts can be, even just with the two that we were already doing.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And the topic was super relevant.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, it was super relevant. And their first book came out in 2019 before the big remote work boom happened. And as we both know, like, remote work didn't start in 2020. But I know that Wayne had all of this knowledge that he could bring to the table and it was just a matter of figuring out how to do that in a podcast form. And then somewhere around January or so, we already worked out, okay, what would the name be, what would the music be, that kind of thing. And as he was talking, he goes, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to be like guy, and I'm not going to just rant about remote work for ten minutes because no one wants to hear that. And I was like, well, you might be surprised, but okay. And he said, I need a co host. OK, fair. And for some reason I naturally assumed he was going to pick somebody else on the team. And he had said, okay, well, do you want to do it? And I was like, I'm not a remote work expert. Like, I've worked remotely, but I'm not an expert and I just edit everything, right? And he was like, you know, but I think you being a younger voice and somebody who you aren't a trainer, but you have experience. And us being, as I just said, like, he and I are different generations, that it could bring a different voice into the, into the conversation. And we didn't I get along really well. So we knew the rapport was already there and it was like, you know what, let's do it. Like, why not? And so terrified to say yes, but it was like but what could this lead to? I don't know. And so, like, you we started our podcast in March and I think we're up to like 30 episodes now. I don't know. We're getting close and it's been so much fun.

[Matt Gilhooly]
It's a totally different experience, right. Because, you know, for this one, I do this conversation, but then I get to do all the other pieces that you do as well. So it's fun to be on this side as well.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Absolutely. And I think that's been part of the shift for me. And I've spoken about this on Polar Ortiz podcast. Adventures and podcasting. But I've been in the podcasting world for six years and that's a long time. Up until recently, I didn't feel like I belonged there. I felt like I felt like everybody was in the expo hall and I'm outside with a ticket. And, you know, even though I'm still involved and I'm still doing stuff and I'm still playing a really important piece in all of those podcasts, it didn't feel like I had really earned my spot in the expo halt because I wasn't behind a microphone, which is sad. It shouldn't be like that. And for anybody who's listening right now, who you're not behind a microphone, but you do something important in podcasting, like you matter and it's a big deal.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, I mean, let's stop there. The editing is key.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Absolutely.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Right. It's a big reason why people enjoy listening to some episodes of some podcast. If some people heard the raw footage of some of these podcasts, they might not listen. So, I mean, editing is a big deal. And then I'll tell you, the hardest part is not the behind the mic of podcasts.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Right.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And I don't even know if the hardest part is the editing. It's like the whole marketing piece, taking the clips and promoting. And I feel like that's the hardest part for me, editing is fun because I get to hear the conversations again and I like doing that and I like taking out people's filler words, as you know very well.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes, I'm sure you'll take out some of mine as well.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Nobody will even know that you said them perfect. But I think it's important to note that I almost feel like your shift of feeling like an expert in the space happen since I've known you. You're absolutely right, because we are having these conversations and maybe the fact that I kept coming to you with questions and you were so generous and so nice and so kind to actually respond to someone that was also feeling like I was faking it or doing something that am I allowed in this space, you know, kind of feeling right. So I look to you as a podcasting expert, especially the fact that you have is that three we've counted? Yes, there are three and there are probably I mean, you mentioned in your little guest form to me that those add up to how many listens or downloads or something.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I believe we just crossed over 400,000 downloads.

[Matt Gilhooly]
That's a lot. That's a lot of lives changed by remote work. Conversation, communication, conversation leadership. Yeah, those are what people are searching for. And that's what I love about the podcasting space and what I think of when we talk about this. And I know we went way off topic here, but when you were talking about that first podcast that you listened to and the effect that it had on you and the fact that you found the right one that was speaking to you where you needed, you know, like, it was 20 somethings that were just trying to figure it out and getting where they wanted to go. That's what's so great about podcasting. There's like, literally a podcast for everyone. Like something that will stick with them or hit them in the right way.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
You're absolutely right. It's definitely something I love about the medium. If you want to learn about anything, look it up. There's probably a podcast about it. And I know that I've done that in times of okay, in this period of my life for a little bit. I'm really interested in marketing. I'll find a few different marketing podcasts to listen to, and I may go through and be like, okay, I don't need six. I could really deal with like two, and I might weave those down a little bit, but anything that you're interested in, even just for a little bit, I had a true crime binge that I did for a bit. It's just it's so amazing to me how many different shows that there are out there for people as long as they know where to look.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And I think to bring it back to where we were is that the editors matter and the people behind the scenes behind not even on the mic, that you don't even know their name, that are mentioned after the episode ends, way at the end, you know, the producers and those kind of things, those people are really crafting these stories as well. It's not just those of us talking into this microphone.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Absolutely. Yeah. Because in a way, not just the editors, but even people who are doing the content repurposing, if maybe that's a different person. We're carrying that voice to the people. We're making sure that that podcast host is heard. And that's something that I'm not really sure I had taken ownership of until I got behind a mic. And I'm almost kind of sad for past me for not taking ownership of that. I know that I've spoken a bit before and I've mentioned this on LinkedIn for people who follow me there that for a long time, if I talk about podcasting, oh, I'm just an editor, I just do this. I would diminutize myself and not realize it. That's a really important piece. And like you said, I haven't really felt like I've taken ownership until this last six months, and it's been a really wild ride.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. You're guessing on other podcasts now. You're cohosting one you're on every couple of weeks, right? On that one, yeah.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So I'm on every other week. So, yeah, like, twice a month or so. And basically, we shift off and have a guest episode on. It will just be Wayne and that guest. And then the next episode will be me asking Wayne a question about remote work.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And for those of you listening to this podcast, if you listen to that, what's the name of it again?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Long distance work life.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Long distance work life. The episodes with Marissa are super fun because they just have this lovely banter because you can tell that they're coworkers that actually enjoy each other, and they have, like, this nice conversation. But also, Marissa is bringing in these questions that she's researched that people are talking about in the industry related to remote work and long distance teams and whatnot. So definitely check that out. I love the episodes that you're on. Not that I don't like the other episodes, but the ones that you're on. There's a levity to it that I really enjoy. So I'm happy that you're behind the mic and maybe you'll do your own someday.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
There are times I'm thinking about it, I don't know what I would do, and there's a little bit of me that goes, oh, my God, I don't have time.

[Matt Gilhooly]
That's true.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
One more thing, right? I do consider it sometimes. I know Palar had said something to me when I was on her podcast about, there's a podcasting bug, and once it's bitten you, who knows? And at that point, she was the only podcast I'd ever guessed it on, and I think I had only been a cohost for maybe a month and a half.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, you're doing the thing. So your official title, or you are officially hired as a web developer. Right. What percentage of your job is, like, web development versus podcasting stuff?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I want to say probably right now, it might be 25% web development, 75% podcasting media production, that kind of thing. Websites are still a huge portion of what I do. I'm the one that works on all of our websites. There are a couple now that we've been able to train one of our other team members to help fill in some gaps or do some other stuff and connect to our customer relationship management software. So that's helped a lot, too. We actually had a conversation about that today. She's like, hey, I'm learning about this stuff. I'm getting a little dangerous. I was like, no, please, because I have no time.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Would you love to be just 100% podcasting, or do you want to keep your toe dipped in that web development?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I do really like still doing the web development stuff, especially because web development is still a big part of. Podcasting. Having a website for your podcast is a big deal, so I don't think I could ever just completely get rid of it. And something we didn't talk about was that I do website development, I do podcasting, I do video, as I mentioned earlier. But I'm also tech support for our team. I'm tech support for our disk personality testing website. There's so many things that I do that it can't even be summed up in one title for being honest about it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. Selfishly, I'd love to work in the podcasting space 100% of the time, so that's kind of like where I was going with that. It sounds like when we talk, that's what you're doing and you're repurposing and you're editing and you're running out of time to do the things that you really want to do. Marissa and I talk on LinkedIn here and there, and we're like our list is just getting really long of the things we quote, unquote, should be doing or want to do with our podcast, to grow it or to just kind of be present right. And learn new things. What's the newest thing you've learned how to do related to podcasting?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I've been really trying to focus on Twitter lately, so I know that I did that Twitter spaces a few weeks ago now. And one of the things that I think was Pixie was talking about was that Twitter is huge for podcasting. I'm not really sure that I had realized that I use Twitter a little bit for personal stuff, and I volunteer with an organization that I help out with their Twitter. But it's been lately that I'm trying to follow more people on there. I'm taking some of my LinkedIn content, posting it over there, and I haven't done a whole lot. I've only been doing it for like, a couple of weeks. But it's been really interesting to see some of the conversations there and some of the things that people are talking about. I'm no different than LinkedIn, really, but it's just really interesting to see, like, what's really important in the podcasting space right now and the fact that I'm able to be on the ground floor and some of those conversations, even if it's just a fly on the wall.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, well, you're the expert now. You should be coming in with those hot tips. I have not ventured into I have Twitter. That's about it for me.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Come play with me.

[Matt Gilhooly]
The problem with Twitter for me, and I don't know if this is true for other people, it's just so fast I can't keep up everything. Just like I refresh the window and everything is different, and you're like, oh, no, did I miss something?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Biggest tip, tweet deck.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Okay. And then follow hashtag is huge.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes, follow hashtags. I'm actually creating a list of just the podcasting community. So some people I follow, some people that I'm not necessarily going to follow, but I want to know what you say, and it helps me kind of curate everything because, like I've said a couple of times, I'm a bona fide geek, I'm a video gamer, that kind of thing. So it's a way for me to kind of keep my geek stuff and my podcasting stuff separate, but still be involved in some of those conversations and see them all in one place. And it tends not to move quite as fast.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, because you're curating it a little bit more. Yeah. My list just keeps getting longer and longer, and as my listeners know, I do this all myself. So it's just like trying to find what's the most important and how do I get these stories to the ears that need to hear it. All along, my mission has been that the right person hears the story that they need to hear that day. So someone listening now that is going into college or trying to figure that find their way. Maybe your story of kind of listening to that instructor and jumping in the other direction because innately you were good at it and they saw that in you, maybe that's going to inspire them to do something or take a leap. Right. I mean, you leaped into podcasting, too.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Absolutely.

[Matt Gilhooly]
But it's a product of doing the web development. Like, you had to get into this job, and then maybe when Kevin asked you that, you could have said no.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Right. And I'm so glad I said yes. Even saying yes to Wayne was a shift. Like I said, I now feel like I've taken ownership of my place in the podcasting community. And hearing people call me a podcasting expert is wild. I'm not sure I will ever get over that. But when I've been on some other podcasts and I've said something about, oh, yeah, well, I've been in the industry six years and I can't remember who it was at the top of my head right now, but somebody was like, oh my gosh, you're an OG. And I was like, yeah, no, it was 2016. But it's really wild to think of myself that way. Full disclosure, I'm 30. I still have imposter syndrome all the time. I feel like I haven't made my place in the world yet.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I'm in my forty s, and I haven't either.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
So I'm in good company, right. And I just feel like I haven't done those steps yet. I haven't earned those titles yet. And even though I'm hearing from other people, I have. And one of the things that I've been wrestling with and trying to tell myself a lot lately is I may not feel like an expert, but to somebody I am. And even if I may not necessarily want to call myself an expert, because I don't feel like I've earned that title, it doesn't mean that the information that I have isn't valuable. So I think I heard this from Gary Vee. He said something about if you don't feel like you're an expert, call yourself an enthusiast. I'm a podcast enthusiast.

[Matt Gilhooly]
There you are.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I'll take that title all day long because I don't necessarily need the credibility for that.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Well, and I think that's a good quality to have to not necessarily have a little bit of that doubt, right? Because it's going to continue pushing you to learn more and to get better and to still look up to other people and to not feel like your way is the only way.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes, very humbling.

[Matt Gilhooly]
We've learned from each other. Like, there are things that I love to do that maybe you would never do with your podcast. Right. Or we have this argument not an argument. We have this conversation about filler words. Right. And that's a very particular thing. Some podcasters hate them, some podcasters don't care. Yeah, right.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I am definitely at the don't care camp, but as we've already discussed, I don't have time.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Right, but if you have time, you.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Wouldn'T maybe if I had time, I would. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, it's too much. I can't do it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I think that's what's nice. I don't know that we're successful yet, but we've tried to kind of curate a group of podcasters on LinkedIn where we try to learn from each other and it's hard. You're in a different space than me, right? So you're in more of a business to business type podcasting space. So some of the things that you do are not necessarily what I would do with my particular show, but I can still learn from the things that you're doing or when we share the mistakes that we made or, you know so I love that the community of podcasters is probably the most collaborative of like, professionals.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, I've noticed that a lot to coming from the web development side. Sometimes it can be really hard. Just some developers are really harsh if you don't know something. Like, it's like, oh my God, you're so stupid. How do you not know that? Like I hate that. I hate that mentality.

[Matt Gilhooly]
That sounds terrible.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
It is terrible. And especially as a woman like that just yeah, anyway. But you're right. Like, the podcasting community, especially the last six months, I've seen people, they just want to help out. They want to give advice and give tips and talk about podcasts that they love. That's something I've really enjoyed too. And I'm a huge book reader too, so I'm used to that from a book perspective. Oh, have you read this book yet? And here's the other five that are on my five star reads and seeing that within the podcast community too. It's been really fun. I know Good Pods has been a hot topic here lately about they're trying to help people discover those other podcasts. If I follow you, Matt, on Good Pods, and I see that you listen to my favorite Murder well, now I know which podcast episode you listen to, and if you rated it a five star, then I know, oh, that's a really good episode. I'm going to go listen to it because my friend Matt really liked it, so I'll probably like it too.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. You know, what I'm finding now is that, well, two things I'm finding I don't have enough time to listen to all the podcasts that I want to listen to amen. But also and maybe you feel the same way now that you are more aware of your influence in the podcasting space, do you find yourself listening to podcasts differently than you used to?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
There are times that I do. I think it depends. For me, I usually am listening to podcasts while I'm doing administrative kind of stuff. And so one of my favorite podcasts is what's good games? I'm a huge video game nerd, and so when I'm listening to that one, I don't necessarily listen as intently as far as for filler words or things of that nature. But there are other podcasts. You and I had a conversation about microphones several weeks ago and afterwards I was like, wait, I know that this podcaster uses a sure mic. I need to hear and see how does it sound, what does it sound like, what are the things that shouldn't be there or should? There have definitely been times that I have to stop and relisten to something in that mindset, but thankfully I am able to still enjoy the medium as just a listener too.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. Do you think it makes you a better co host? Do you think there's any podcast that you listen to that you try to emulate or I don't know that there's.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
One in particular that I try to emulate. I do know that in general, I do listen to a lot of shows that have multiple hosts on them. Usually it's multiple hosts instead of like a person and a guest. So there are certain things that when I started a co host, it's like, okay, an intro is really important and a good outro is really important. And I'm not great at extemporaneous speaking, despite what this podcast may sound like. Right. So when we were doing the intros, and especially still now, I'm almost at a point that I've memorized it, but I wrote myself a script and said, okay, I need to hit this point. At this point, I'm just going to write myself a script and go. That was one of the things that I definitely took from so many other podcasts I listened to was having this thing that you say every time and it's something that you almost expect every time. And one of the things that I had to get coaching from Wayne on pretty early was I speak too fast, especially if I have a script, we would record an episode and at the end he goes, okay, kid, I need you to like, take your speedometer and dial it down. And part of it was just it's a script. And as you get going, you're going to speed up a little bit more. And so the feedback that he gave to me and I'll give to your listeners too, if they're thinking about starting a podcast and they also struggle with that, write in your breath sounds. Put them in all caps. If you look at my script, I say, welcome to the long distance work life. Breathe.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Have you said it yet?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
No. That one I figured out. I did do Drama Club a long time ago, so I know if it's in parentheses, I'm not reading it. And so thankfully, that has not happened yet. But having those breast sounds, it gave me just enough of, okay, I need to pause for a second. And it helped me to slow down a lot, and I'm still learning a lot about co hosting. One of the other things I learned pretty early on was something called double barrel questions. If you listen to early episodes, I do that to Wayne all the time. And so a double barrel question is, where did you come from and how did that impact you? I've asked you two questions at the same time, and really I should have just focused on one because what ends up happening is that that guest or that other person that you're talking to, they'll answer one of the questions and they might hit the other one, but they may forget it entirely. They're really just going to focus on one question. And once I learned about that concept, it's like, oh, no, I need to fix how I'm doing things. So I'm still definitely learning a lot of things as a cohost as well, and learning how to not be so nervous when I'm bantering with Wayne and also even learning how to do guest spots. This is only the third one I've ever done. And that's been really interesting, too, because, you know, some podcast you come in and you don't know what the questions are, and some podcasts you do, and figuring out the differences and how other shows do things has also been really enlightening.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah, I think that's interesting. Just so everyone knows here, we don't have questions. So I had questions for my first two episodes, and what I found actually, and that's something that I learned from listening to others and kind of listening to myself back, is that when I had questions, I wasn't actually listening to what the guest was saying. Right. And so I was just waiting for the next pause to ask the next question, which really doesn't give an authentic conversation. And my goal here is to really try to make the conversation as candid as possible. So whoever's listening, we come in with, would you write, like, two sentences for me that we were going to talk about today? And that's what I love about these conversations, is because sometimes they go in directions that we're not quite sure that they were going to go there in the first place. And I'm okay with that. But that's the difference, I think, between something like the Life Shift podcast and something like the ones that you work on for an organization that needs to be have a little bit more structure. Although I will say the one that you are on feels very conversational. So you guys are doing a good job.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, we definitely do try to do that and I think it's gotten more conversational as we go along. One of the things, like I said, I'm not a remote work expert, but because of doing this podcast, I've done a lot of research about that subject and learned about a lot of things that I didn't know before. And it's really helped me to come into the podcast with specific questions or little tidbits about the conversation that we're talking about because. Okay. I may not know the answer to the main question. But oh. Hey. I saw this study that Harvard Business Review did about this particular thing that we're talking about and I wouldn't have been able to do that back in March. But I can do that now. And I think that's also helped a lot. And I have definitely noticed that some of the beginning episodes is really just me asking Wayne questions and getting the answer and then asking another one. And now I've been able to add some follow up questions and like you there were episodes in the very beginning that I'm trying to hit these specific points and sometimes I try to force a point in when it didn't really make sense. And later I'm like, oh my gosh, why did I do that? Like, I was so silly. So we're getting better all the time and I think that that's true for everybody in this space. You're never going to be perfect.

[Matt Gilhooly]
And I think we said it before the collaboration. I mean, even if you're a podcast or you're looking to start a podcast, jump on LinkedIn and connect with people that are in the space, sure, there are a lot of people going to tell you exactly what you should be doing and they might be right or wrong and you can take what you want. But there are a lot of people that are willing to answer questions. Like today I asked a question about editing audio. We both commented on the same person's post, but I don't necessarily know all the hotkeys when it comes to I use Logic Pro for my audio editing and I didn't know hotkey, so I was like, what's the easiest way to do what you're saying? I already do half of it. I don't necessarily do that other part. And so it's just like simple things that people are willing to and maybe they don't do that in the web development space, as you were saying, they're like, you don't know how to do that. You should go back to school.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, it really depends. There's a name for it and I can't think of what it is right now where if you go on to stack overflow and you ask a coding question because you just don't know the answer. The quickest way to get an answer is to go back into your question with a different account and answer wrong. Because people are more likely to come in and correct you than they are to answer the question in the first place.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Crazy. Yeah. No, this space is wonderful, and I love that we've made this connection, and I do see you as a podcasting expert and whether you want to take that or as an enthusiast or an influencer or whatever you want to title it, whatever is most comfortable for you, you are leading the way in what you're doing. You've probably learned a lot more than most of us have through the last six years of your broadcasting journey. You said you still talk to Dr. Joe?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yes.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Does he know that you've kind of shifted a little into this space?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
He does. I actually gave a shout out to him in a LinkedIn post a couple of months ago or so, partially because it was in his class that we started our LinkedIn profiles. It was an assignment that we had. And so I was that weird freshman kid that had a LinkedIn account, like, that was unheard of, and I had tagged him in it and he had sent me a message and he was like, hey, you've had a really cool career. And it's weird for me to think of it that way because I work for a small business and so compared to some of my other classmates that they went off to La. And now they're working on movie studios or something. Like, it doesn't feel the same, but at the same time, it is important. And I know that he still teaches at Ball State, like I said, and works with senior classes right now and actually asked me to come and speak about podcasting or communication in the workspace and why that's important. So I might be talking about the disk model we'll see, and I haven't officially said that I'm going to do that yet, but that's also been really interesting too, just this idea of, oh, my gosh, I also have wisdom that I can come in and teach people that were just like me.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Do you ever think back to that conversation? Is he that conversation is kind of why you're in the podcasting space now.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I think about that conversation all the time. It was huge for me. Like I said, he had noticed something that I didn't notice in myself. I didn't realize that I had a talent for any sort of tech related stuff. And now, like, if you talk to my coworkers are like, duh, I'm a techie, it's fine. There's a bunch of stuff that I don't know and I don't claim to know, and that's okay. But like you said, that truly was a life shift for me, and I thank him for that all the time and credit him for getting me into that because there are so many opportunities and so many experiences that I've had, including right now doing this with you that I would not have had had I not done that.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Yeah. It's so interesting how one conversation can change the trajectory. Because. I mean. Say you had been sick that day and you didn't go in. Or you didn't turn in that assignment or whatever it was. Or you just were sick doing it and you didn't do a great job. And then you didn't have that conversation. Then you would have been in sound like who knows where your life would be. And so I think what I love about the life shift podcast is, like, thinking about these little seemingly insignificant moments, right? That conversation put you into web development, which puts you into this job, which then introduced you to podcasting, and now people are coming to you for advice on podcasts. That's so cool.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Yeah, it's wild. And not just podcasts, but I'm having people come up to me and ask me about remote work. I had somebody sent me a message last week and said, hey, I'm asking remote work experts these questions. I was like, Whoa, whoa, time out. I'm specifically the amateur on our show and connected her. I suggested that she talked to Wayne, and she said, oh, I already sent him questions. I'm asking you to own it. Okay. And so I sent my responses back yesterday. But that's also been wild. Just this idea of subject matter expert. And at what point do you really become that? Because I'm not sure there's really a level for it, and it's weird to think that I have that for either topic.

[Matt Gilhooly]
No, you do own it.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Thank you.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I like to end these conversations with a question, and I think yours is going to be a little bit different. I think what I'd like to ask you is if there is another Marissa out there, maybe a Martha, maybe a Marcia, perhaps a Mariah or a Melissa, and they're thinking about going into a space that they know they're somewhat interested in, but they have this doubt in them because, like you said, women in tech or women in coding. What would you say to someone that's in that position right now, based on what you know of your journey?

[Marisa Eikenberry]
I would essentially say when the opportunity comes up, say yes. I think that's been the biggest lesson for me lately. You know, saying yes to web development, saying yes to well, saying yes to going to Ball State, first of all, saying yes to web development, saying yes to editing podcasts, and now saying yes to co hosting. It's been an incredible journey, and if I had said no, like, you and I would have never met. I would not have done the guests that I've done in the last couple of months. I wouldn't have done the Twitter space that I did a couple of months ago. Like, there are so many people and opportunities that I wouldn't have without it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I love that advice. Something that I would add to it and I've tried to practice more recently, is if something scares you, that's probably the place where you should say yes. If it's like an opportunity that someone's given to you, and if you have fear that you're not going to do it perfectly or you're not going to, you know, do I know enough? Can I do it? It's probably a good idea to say yes.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Absolutely. I mean, like I said, Wayne asking me to do the co hosting, I was terrified. I thought I was just going to totally beef it on the first episode, and I didn't. And here we are. I guess if we've done 30 episodes, I've done 15 of them and no beefing. Right? Or if there was, you didn't know.

[Matt Gilhooly]
Because you're the editor.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Thank God for editing, right? So it's been really incredible to do, and I can't imagine what things would have looked like if I hadn't said yes to that, even though it did scare me. And now seeing how much that it has really paid off, I'm definitely a very risk averse kind of person. I'm like, oh, you want me to do what? Yes. No. But I think if you have enough psychological safety and you have people around you that you can talk to about when things suck or whatever, in this case, Wayne believed I could do it.

[Matt Gilhooly]
So I did it and you did it well and you didn't beef it.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
Not this time, anyway.

[Matt Gilhooly]
There's always a chance you didn't beef it on the Night Shift, and so I don't need to edit that. I appreciate you sharing your story. I think it's so great to have these conversations about how, like, just one yes can change everything and it can lead you to something that you're super passionate about. It's clear that you love podcasting and you love the space, and I think that's inspiring in itself. You've helped me and you've helped this podcast just by answering some of my silly little questions or telling me what something sounds like so that I can tweak things. So I appreciate you and thank you for being a part of this.

[Marisa Eikenberry]
No problem. Thank you so much. I've been so honored to even just be a small part in your journey. You asking me questions and us talking about all this. It's been really incredible to see over the last six months.

[Matt Gilhooly]
I appreciate that and I appreciate all of you listening to the Life Shift podcast. If you are enjoying these episodes, I know people say it doesn't matter, but we love seeing those reviews. Marissa actually just wrote about reviews on LinkedIn and talking about how that gives us fuel to keep going. So if you are liking these episodes, I would appreciate five star review on Apple podcast, maybe a couple words about what you're enjoying about the show, and maybe maybe it doesn't. And if you're listening on Spotify, you're able to right there as well. Just no reviews just yet. So we wi