The Power of Kindness: Lessons from Robert Peterpaul

Hello my friends.

I just wanted to drop some special bonus episodes into the feed that you probably have not heard unless you are a part or an early part of the Patreon for the Life Shift podcast.

If you don't know, I do have a Patreon.

It currently only has two tiers.

One is a three dollar a month tier just to support what I'm doing, helps cover production costs.

And then there's a five dollar tier which will get you episodes early and just the, I guess, warm fuzzies for help out with the Life Shift podcast.

But I used to have other tiers where people were so generous and were offering additional money each month to get bonus episodes and possible winnings of T shirts and all sorts of things.

And then I realized a couple months ago that I wasn't able to deliver what I wanted to, especially for those of you that were giving me the extra money.

So right now we're just kind of doing the early episodes.

You'll always get those.

So if you want to support the Life Shift podcast, please jump over to patreon.com forward/thelifeshiftpod podcast and you can find that information there.

But I come on here because I want to share a series of these bonus episodes that I did early on in the Patreon journey.

There are like 20 plus episodes in which I had bonus recordings with previous guests.

So I would go back and we would have a conversation about the experience of sharing their story on the Life Shift podcast.

Catch up on anything.

And I think these are super important and I know most of them did not see the light of day from outside of the Patreon.

So I'm going to be dropping these episodes.

Whatever you're listening to now is another episode.

So I'm going to use the same intro for all of them.

But here is one of the bonus episodes with a former guest from the Life Shift podcast.

And if you like this, let me know because I'm thinking of bringing some of this back and talking to previous guests as I go into year four.

So enjoy this bonus episode that was once released on the Patreon feed.

I'm Matt Gilhooley and this is the Life Shift Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

I am here with my friend Rob or Robert or which one do you like?

Peter Paul.

Francis is my middle name.

Rob is great.

Rob works.

Is Francis your middle name?

It is.

I also have a confirmation name if you want to really get into it.

So I have.

I'd like that quite a few Robert Francis Thomas Peter Paul.

Okay, so like all of the.

I would.

I can say this because my name is Matthew John.

It's very like these generic boy names that you got.

All of them.

Yes.

All the saints were very holy.

I tell people sometimes that my parents maybe had like this like a Bible dartboard, which sounds really blasphemous, but in which they were just like picking names.

So anyway, Robert Peter Paul, thank you for being back.

We recorded your episode in May of 2023 and then it was released on 7 11, 2023.

And that was like a happenstance event falling on the 11th, which an 11 is a special number for you and your family.

Yeah, that was wild that that happened that way.

I was obviously so honored that you asked me the first time.

I'm honored to be back and reflecting on it has been interesting.

You know, the number 11 means a lot to my family and I think many others because it is technically some kind of angelic number when you do research on it.

But don't fact check me.

It means a lot to my family because my brother Thomas was diagnosed with cancer when he was 9 and then he passed away at the age of 11 on 911 at 9 11pm and I actually looked at the clock unknowingly as a child at 911 when we were all in the hotel room and he was at the hospital with my parents and the adults, not knowingly, I looked exactly at that time.

And I'm not joking, Matt.

I kind of forget this happens.

But at least every week, at least once, I will look at the clock randomly at 9:11.

It used to happen more frequently.

It's interesting that it doesn't as much anymore or maybe I'm just not as aware of it.

But yeah, the number 11's sort of like a wink from him now.

So when I see that and when I saw that on your episode, it just felt like, oh, wow, he tuned in.

You know, it was meant to be.

And something recently happened.

I can't remember what it is, but there was another 11 in which some.

I don't know, I posted something.

It was related to you and it was an 11.

And I can't remember what it was, but I think there is something about those numbers.

I have something very similar and one time I got the nerve, or I don't know if it's nerve, but I went to see a medium and they were like, your mom, like, is communicating with you every time.

Do you see a number all the time basically?

And I was like, yeah.

And they're like, well, that's how your mom is like letting you know that she's there.

And I was like, wow, okay, so maybe, maybe you have something to add.

So interesting.

Did you enjoy your experience with the medium?

I'm fascinated by this.

Yeah, I think it was.

It's hard because sometimes, like, I think there's a lot of skepticism in my brain.

I'm not someone that's super spiritual or I don't know if I believe all that stuff and I don't know if that's informed by just losing someone so early in my life, but I went into it kind of open minded and what I liked about it was that this particular person, she didn't.

She asked you to like create a fake email address to sign up for it because she didn't want you to think that she was gonna like google you or figure out information about your life.

And so.

And I didn't have the podcast yet, so nobody knew that my mom was dead.

Now everyone knows because I talk about it every single week.

But it was really interesting.

And you know, some of it was like, oh yeah, that might resonate and others were, I don't know.

So I'm still on the fence.

But it was interesting.

And some of the stuff that did connect, maybe I just need to hear, you know, and maybe it's true, maybe it's not true, but it kind of was this nice little, little part of a healing journey.

So that's the great part about it.

If it brings you some kind of joy, to quote Marie Kondo, I guess, or peace, you know, it was worth it.

And I encourage everybody out there who's grieving or has lost someone to look for these signs and celebrate when see them because I don't know, I don't think you have to believe in them, although it's nice to.

I think it's just something that can bring you comfort.

I mean, even if you attach that, that is your brother sending you a signal.

Yeah.

That can bring you peace or joy or bring good memories to you.

So.

Yeah, I agree, I agree.

Yeah, it's a guide and it actually has helped me over the years, believe it or not, the number seeing it with things that have sort of been meant to be.

I think we recently went on a delayed honeymoon.

I think our room number was 11 or had 11 in it.

There's a lot of things like that that are, that will happen to us and it's sort of.

Yeah, it's a nice thing to see on the journey.

That's kind of fun.

Yeah, you know, you have a podcast, the Art of Kindness, and you just hit 100 episodes and.

Or 102 now, maybe.

I think we're like 106 today, which is.

Oh, funny.

Well, then I got lost.

Yeah, you did some replays and things like that.

But in any case, your 100th episode, you talked to Carol Burnett.

And I know this is not about your story, but hello.

That's so cool.

What was your life like on that moment?

It was such an honor, you know, I thought 100.

I'm always looking for reasons to celebrate, and I thought the 100th was a really big, exciting thing.

As, you know, since you've just experienced it, it's an accomplishment.

And I think when you're a podcaster and you're sort of doing all this on your own and it's a lot of work, it's nice to just stop and really think about all the time you've put into this and what you've put out into the world.

So suffice to say, I wanted to celebrate it in a big way.

I was looking for a really exciting guest, although all of them are exciting to me.

My network especially was like, try and find somebody, you know, that maybe you normally wouldn't try and ask.

So I.

I went wild.

I was putting all these pitches out there.

I had secured on the down low.

I've actually haven't told people this, but I had Sara Barilles for a long time, which would have been wonderful.

And hopefully, fingers crossed, it will work out.

I also have a weird mouth injury going on, people, so if I stumble over, it's my giant Lisa Rinna lip.

I will say that.

Yeah, I had all these things out and lovely feedback from people.

People were in, then they were out because of the strike going on.

And so I had almost given up hope.

And then at 9:11pm I received an email.

Stop it.

It might have actually been no.

But I got an email from Carol's team saying she would love to, and she's very passionate about kindness and, you know, listened and loved it.

And so it happened.

I still can't believe it happened.

I tried my best not to black out during it.

I did a little bit, but she was everything you could hope for.

I feel like talking to her was a warm hug and I could just sit back and I felt like I was in the presence of a family member.

And listeners have said that they said they felt like they were dropping in on a phone call with their.

Their grandma or something like that.

You know, she's so beloved and I said this to her.

I'm like, you're universally loved.

She was like, no, I'm not.

No one is.

And, you know, that was a blanket statement, but I think she's pretty darn close, so it was an honor.

Next time, for your 200th, it will be Dolly Parton, because I know that that's your ultimate.

Put that out there, my friend.

We gotta make that happen.

And with that, if you do end up talking to Sara Bareilles, tell her that I am her favorite or she's my favorite, and both we're gonna be best friends at some point in this.

I remember that about you.

That's why I felt like letting the cat out of the bag there.

And if it works out, I'm definitely gonna send the team your show and just be.

Thank you.

If you're interested, I would.

I'm gonna hold you to that.

But.

Well, it's recorded now, so.

Yeah, exactly.

Gotta do it.

So with the Art of Kindness, though, you're talking to these people in the entertainment industry.

You're talking to them about, you know, like, what they think kindness is and what kind of experiences in their lives have they kind of seen kindness extended to them and.

And kind of given them a leg up.

And then when you came on my show, you told something maybe a little bit more personal that you don't necessarily share too many details on in your own, you know, on your own podcast.

What was that like for you?

I know you've told your story before, you've told it in front of Congress and those kind of things.

Was there anything that, after our conversation, made you think anything different than you've told it before?

A couple things.

You know, I gotta give it to you.

You are a fantastic interviewer, which I've said before.

And I think one of the great qualities you possess is listening, and you throw out sort of questions or statements that elicit really wonderful answers in your guests.

And, you know, just as a listener, I say that.

So then to be in the seat and experience it, I did find myself saying things and sort of thinking of things, even semi poetically, with.

I said something about a window with.

That was cracked with the sun coming through.

I don't even know.

But, yeah, there was.

There was a lot that came up for me that by the end of it, I had that feeling that you feel after sort of expelling a lot of energy in a good way.

And it felt like a very safe place to be.

And so, I guess reflecting on that time, one of the things that I really Took away was.

And I feel like, helps me actually grow as a person.

Was.

Maybe I don't remember if it was the middle of the conversation, but I think multiple times.

And you've said this on your show, you were saying how you closed the door on grief.

And usually I'm just a very.

I guess I try and.

Yes.

And.

And always agree with people, even if I don't.

And it's not that I didn't agree with you, but I just, in that moment was like, I don't know if I have closed the door in grief.

Yeah, I feel like it was an awesome moment.

Like I felt weird sort of saying something different, but I felt it led the conversation into an interesting place and.

And reflecting on that today, I actually, I don't really subscribe necessarily to saying people are right.

Right or wrong.

But you're wrong.

No, I'm just kidding.

I think that we're both quote, unquote, right because we both have our own experiences.

But I was also really reflecting on what you said and how powerful it was in the fact that you can close the door on grief, but behind the door, it's still there.

There's still sort of a house there.

So I sort of have combined our two thoughts now.

And looking back on it, I guess that's how I.

I feel and what I took away.

You know, I'm able to share my story without sort of falling back into it and sort of falling back in love with my trauma and my grief.

I think that's something that happens to people.

People are in love with their trauma whether they know it or not, and they can't get out of the, you know, merry go round they're in, which I certainly have experienced with people.

And so to be able to say you've closed the door on grief is an interesting sentiment and something I think I reflected on a lot after our conversation.

Among other things, I will say that.

You pushing back on that, not pushing back.

But you've also said that that's not what I meant, you know, in a way that you say not saying.

Yes.

And for me, since then, I'm like, well, maybe I didn't mean.

Maybe I was telling myself that.

But I think what you just said, that we're both kind of right in.

In our own ways because grief is different for everyone.

My grief journey feels so different or feels so separate from so many times that I've talked to other people about their journey because I don't remember my mom.

And so it's hard to like, it's Almost like I grieve what I didn't have.

More so than.

Than her loss.

Because at this point in 35 years later, 34 years later, it's more of like, this figment, because there's not like you don't.

I don't know, it just feels different for me.

And so.

But every time I go to say it, when I'm having a conversation with someone else, I always think of you because I think it's important.

I think there is something nice about podcasting where we don't have to be like, yes, and where we can just be like, no, I don't really agree with that, or no, I didn't feel that way.

And that's such a beauty of, like, storytelling and having this space.

And I think you probably feel this too.

When people define kindness in a way that's like, oh, I never thought of that before.

When you ask them to define kindness.

Yeah, I love it.

I actually.

I've started to really embrace and love differing opinions as a people pleaser.

It's interesting, but it's hard.

Well, as we grow older, don't you feel like you want to surround yourself with people that challenge you and maybe give you a new idea?

And I really think it's cool that we are both sort of thinking about the same little moment where it's not like we.

We quote, unquote, disagree.

There's not like a word for it, I guess.

It's so ambiguous and personal.

But it stuck with us, it affected us, and it kind of shifted our view.

And I think that's something we all need more of in this world, is just to listen to each other and maybe not take on someone's view, but sort of let it life shift your own, sort of mold your own along the way.

So it's kind of cool.

Have you read this Is Random, where the Crawdads Sing?

I haven't read this yet.

Just closed it last night.

And there's a big through line with the loss of a mother that I think you might find interesting.

It is a work of fiction.

It's beautifully written.

I'm sure the author maybe experienced something like it in real life, but something you just said made me think.

I don't want to spoil it.

That you might all right things away from that.

Yeah.

And if we're talking about books, have you read Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow?

Oh, you know, I have.

God, I can't stop thinking about it.

I read it this year.

The Patreon people are like, why are they talking about books?

This is not a book podcast.

But seriously, if you're listening, read that book.

It's tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.

I can't think of the author.

Is it Levin or something like that?

Oh, Gabrielle Zevin, I believe, With a Z.

Yes.

Who's a fantastic author.

Also wrote a great book called the storied life of Ag.

A.J.

fickery, I believe.

Which if you're a book lover out there, and you probably are, if you're still tuned into this, because we're going off on books, I recommend it.

It's got everything, you know, romance, mystery.

Awesome.

She's a great author.

Yeah.

But I love that book too.

It was so good.

And I will read the other one.

I think I didn't read it yet because I had a friend that said this is not possible, whatever happens in the book.

So, in any case, you know, we're talking about the power of storytelling.

And for me, having told my story in so many different ways now, over 100 plus episodes, I'm recording 117 later today.

So, like, it's just like there's a lot.

And I say my story a lot, and I think every time I say it, there's some kind of healing in it because other people are listening.

They'll reach out to me, like, hey, Matt, you said this this time, you know, like, let's talk about that.

I know you shared your episode.

You were apprehensive a little bit at first to share your episode with some of your family members, but some of your family members listened and you had one reaction that I thought maybe we could chat about.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Well, what's interesting, too, about what you just said is it reminds me, I think, of.

I think it's Jack Nicholson or Anthony Hopkins.

Oh, gosh, why am I meshing them together?

But there's an actor who said they don't need to do any analysis or work, which I don't know if I believe that all they do is read the script at least 200 times, and then they know everything they need to know about the story.

So I think as you continue to tell your story hundreds of times, that's you getting to know it.

Like, the more you tell it, the more you know it and the more you understand something, the less power, I guess it can have over you in a negative way.

So that's interesting.

I think I saw that on Instagram.

But scrolling down to your actual question, when you.

Yes, when.

When you shared the episode, you had said to me too.

I.

I think you'll find that People have surprising reactions to this and I was nervous to share it with some folks.

One person I wasn't necessarily nervous to share it with, who would have listened to it either way because she has been just one of my greatest champions in life.

And I know you have a similar relationship with your grandmother.

Is my nanny, who I told Carol Burnett about as well because she also did.

She's in the grandma club with us and I just love her so much.

And I pulled up.

Actually, that's why I'm pausing.

I'm pulling it up right now.

I found her initial text that she sent me after she listened to the episode and I'll read it to you.

We certainly had a much longer phone call after this, but she said this was in July.

I finally listened to your interview on Life Shift.

Oh, Robert, your words put a dent in my heart.

I learned so much more about your quote unquote story.

So much I didn't know about your experience.

Hope we can talk about this if you feel comfortable doing so.

Brave, brilliant man you are.

What a gift to listeners, which is such a grandma thing to say.

And she's so sweet.

But then we had this lovely phone call where I feel like we're so close and have always shared everything, but because I sat down with you and took the time to I guess just start talking about it and things came up I hadn't maybe processed or talk talked about before.

She had questions and more things to discuss.

And it was such a gift.

I mean, it was.

Thank you for opening the door for that conversation.

There were certainly follow ups with even my parents who listened that I didn't expect.

And I think because of the way you helped me tell it in such a respectful setting, it allowed for that nobody was upset.

Yeah.

You know what's really cool too about your podcast is that while it's inspiring to listen to, it's also sort of a reminder on a simple level that this is something free everybody can do.

If you just take the time.

You don't need to have a podcast mic to sit down for a half hour or an hour with somebody and have this conversation and maybe prepare questions.

That's kind of fun.

My grandma always does that when I see her.

She always has a.

You said that somewhere recently.

A list.

I think I made it a kindness tip.

I'm getting really low on those.

I gotta figure out creative ones.

But yeah, she would always have sort of a cue card of things to ask me about, which I thought was so wonderful.

So just being curious about people and doing that is a gift, so thank you for that.

And I encourage people out there to have these conversations with their loved ones, whether they're on a podcast or not.

Yeah, I think.

You know what?

I had a very similar experience.

I recorded my story with.

I had my first episode, guest kind of flip roles with me, and I got to tell my story.

And I think, what's the reason, you know, like, my dad listened to that, and my dad and I lived that same experience, but he saw it from his lens.

He saw it from what he was, you know, seeing and experiencing.

And anytime you have these conversations, like, maybe even the conversations that you had with your grandmother since your.

Your brother passed, there's always interruptions, right?

Because you're like, oh, no, I didn't see it that way.

And.

And this allowed you to tell someone that didn't know your story that full story, beginning to end, without getting that, oh, no, that's not how it happened.

And.

And it kind of.

So when, like, my dad heard my episode, he's like, oh, I, like, totally didn't mean for that experience to be that way.

And I was like, I know.

It was just how I experienced it, not how you experienced it.

And so maybe that was also kind of.

Even though you've had these conversations with your grandmother, she heard you tell it in a way that was uninterrupted and, you know, in a way that was.

You were telling it to a different person, you know, So I think there's always such value in that, too, that we never really think of as storytellers or as people that like to kind of share their story.

So, yeah, I think it's wonderful that.

You have security, and I would love to see sort of.

Well, hopefully you never stop, but down the line at the.

Toward the end of the podcast journey or just a later episode, you with maybe that same person or someone else.

I'm around if you want to tell that story again.

Because it's interesting to sort of have this time capsule now where it's like, well, at that moment, that's what I reflected on.

That's how I felt about it.

That's kind of what I took away from the experience.

But, you know, when I was younger, I probably would have said the same truth but had a different feeling on it.

So you're right to have sort of the purity of speech, to just let everything out there, let it flow without any giant boulders in the river is a.

Is a true gift.

And I do think that's something we can all do for people still, you know, like practice the art of listening and really listening and not listening, because you are waiting for your chance to speak, which a lot of us get caught up in.

Hey, we're podcasters.

We do that too.

It's fine.

But.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, I would say that this podcasting journey has taught me how to listen, and maybe it's the direction that my podcast goes and my goals with it, but I used to be so much that person, like, at work meetings that was just waiting for the next silence so I could say something super impressive or ask a really profound question that didn't really matter.

Meanwhile, I wasn't listening to what was happening before, and now I found the freedom.

And it sounds like you have kind of a structure.

You do a lot of research on your guests, but you still have the freedom to let things go and move on with wherever your guest is going.

And that was like, the biggest thing I learned, that I might have had this great question while this person was talking, but yet they took a sharp left, and that question no longer matters.

And to have the ability to throw that question away and go wherever this conversation is going was such a learning experience for me, and I'm just so grateful for it.

So, yes, listen.

Listen to everyone.

You're so right.

Active listening is one of the greatest lessons from podcasting.

And I think our shows are similar in the sense that we have the boundaries and the topic and the general gist and feeling of the show because it's us.

We're there every time, but we are able to kind of go with the flow.

And you can really only do that if you listen.

There was a guest on once.

I think it was Mike Cabellon.

I want to quote the right person who said something really great.

I think one of his kindness.

Jack Nicholson was.

It was Jack Nicholson.

It was Sara Barilla's.

And it was, you guys pick my grandma.

And he said something along the lines of his kindness tip was staying curious.

But he gave sort of an actionable tip, which I, you know, I love.

And it was when someone's talking to you and you ask, you know, how their day was, and they say, oh, you know, I took my dog for a walk, and I went to the supermarket, and, you know, then I stopped by my grandma's.

It's sort of like if you're listening for something out of the ordinary or weird or specific, and that example I gave isn't necessarily something along those lines, but then you can have something to ask about next.

And so that's kind of a nice way to practice active listening, especially as we go to parties this season and all that kind of stuff.

It's like if you're just kind of saying the hi, how are you?

And going through the motions and then waiting to talk about how this year you did X, Y, and Z, well, you're not really listening, but if you hear someone says, oh, before this, I was at, you know, our uncle's house.

Oh, well, how was that party?

Oh, who was there?

You kind of.

It leads to more of an interesting conversation.

So I found that to be a great way to practice active listening, being.

Genuinely curious about people that you're interested in knowing better.

And I think there's such value.

And I've learned this.

And this is.

I mean, something you were just saying triggered it, but.

Oh, having a.

Like, redoing this episode, or not redoing it, but like, revisiting telling my story.

Even in this journey of the life shift, I challenge my guests, and it's really hard because I think we don't have one pivotal moment in our lives.

We have many.

Right.

And so I.

I asked the guests to get as specific as possible about one that we feel kind of changed us the most or pushed us in a different direction.

And when I started that, and I think even in that episode, it was like, oh, well, my mom died when I was 8.

And as I reflect more, even the way that I tell that story, my life shift is not necessarily when she died.

It was when, five hours later, when my dad had to sit me down and tell me that she died.

And so that conversation with my father was really what changed my life.

And it's interesting to think back at that.

Whereas, like, the 10 years ago, Matt would never have even considered that as to be kind of that shifting moment.

And so, yeah, it might be interesting to revisit that.

And if you want to do it, you are welcome to do that.

I would love to.

I'd be honored.

That's very interesting.

And it's.

It's almost like multiple things.

Have you found this, I guess, are a part of a shift?

There's sort of a formula to a shift because you were raised a certain way.

So all those moments leading up to your dad sitting you down, although that was the shift, it's how you responded to it and reacted that I guess put you in that next direction.

And that was because of X, Y, and Z.

So it's such a complicated thing, which is what makes your episode so interesting.

Yeah.

And then, I mean, it's been a journey that I never could have imagined for myself, and I hope the same for your own podcasting journey and the things that you're accomplishing with that.

Your.

You have a.

You're part of a network.

You get to do all these red carpets.

And you were doing that before, maybe, but now it's part of the podcast.

Yeah, it's so much fun.

Oh, thank you.

I was doing it a bit before, but then the Broadway Podcast network kindly asked me to do it with them, and it kind of snowballed, and now I do it without them with them, and I have such a fun time.

You know, it's unhinged.

It's just fun.

I'm someone similar to you.

I want to ask sort of really, maybe deep questions sometimes and interesting questions, but a red carpet's not the place for that, so you got to ask a lot of silly things.

The one I can squeeze in is a kindness tip that's been fun or.

Or a dad joke, something specific.

We got that.

This most recently.

The dad joke.

Yes.

The cheesy thing that was at the opening night of Harmony, because there were some sort of clear instructions about what to get into, what not to get into.

And, yeah, I found that to be fun.

So it's interesting because you get to talk to people maybe that you wouldn't get to have on your show, but you do have to ask them kind of like three snappy questions.

So.

I enjoy it.

You know, I like to feed off that crazy energy.

Yeah, you have a lot of it, and I think that's what I.

You know, even if I.

It's not.

That's a compliment, by the way.

No, I dig it there.

Even if I don't know who you're talking to for, like.

Because I think the original appeal to your podcast for me was, like, the people you were talking to.

And the more that I listen, the energy that you bring to those conversations and the genuine curiosity and the kindness that you show them in that space is what keeps me listen.

I mean, I know you now, but.

But it keeps me listening.

I think that that is just like, it doesn't matter who's on now.

Right.

It's just like, you bring such great energy, and I can imagine those red carpets are a blast for you.

Probably exhausting, but also a blast for you.

What's.

Like.

You've been doing those a lot more recently.

What's changed since July in.

In your world?

You got to do your honeymoon.

Congratulations on that.

Oh, yeah, just.

Oh, thank you.

Delayed honeymoon was a good time in the Bahamas.

Hey, Shout out.

Swam with pigs.

Changed my life.

That was a life shift.

We'll have to have you back on about the pigs.

Yeah, different episode.

Sorry, I elevated an oink, actually.

Yeah, a lot's been going on since July, I guess.

Wow.

So much.

I mean, the honeymoon, the podcast stuff.

What show did you do?

You did something?

Oh, I did.

So I did Beauty and the Beast again, which was fun.

And then I did Jersey Boys.

Jersey Boys.

Really fun.

Such a fast paced show.

And I think both of them were great experiences because of the people.

You know, even sometimes in a show, if you sort of have, I hate to say it, one rotten egg, someone who's keeping the drama backstage instead of on stage, then it can drag down the experience.

But they both had such wonderful folks that I now consider part of my little theater families.

You know, you make these little families every time you do a show, so that's why those two experiences were great.

But, yeah, I've just been hanging.

Going along.

What's new with you?

Well, this is not about me.

Since July, you work with kindness.org too, so.

I do.

I have an episode coming up with.

With one of your bosses.

I know.

It's so funny to hear her called a boss because she certainly is a boss.

An impressive powerhouse of a person.

And instead of.

But I'll say.

And at the same time, I do social media for them.

They're one of the rare clients where I just feel like I can talk to anybody in the organization.

You know, the first meeting I had with them initially was just because of my podcast.

I was interested in learning more and it sort of organically snowballed into me taking them on as a client.

And I've just really been blown away at the culture over there.

They really try not to just talk the talk of kindness, but walk the walk.

So meetings, even for really technical stuff will start with sort of an opening question of how did kindness show up for you this week?

Or what's something that made you smile this morning?

I mean, just like things like that where it.

It sort of brings the human to the forefront, especially in a remote setting.

You know, we can all just become little typing bots.

And that's been really nice.

But yes, Jacqueline Lindsay believes she'll be your guest.

I know she had a very profound time and, you know, she was saying it was a challenge in a good way and it really pushed her.

So I can't wait to hear that episode.

I'm sure it's gonna be an amazing one.

I know a bit about her story and she's an incredible person.

You know, I don't go into these episodes different from you.

I don't go into these episodes with a lot of research.

I don't want to know a ton about my guests and their backstory, I think, because for me, I start to make assumptions or I kind of.

Kind of put out the path that I think we're going to go on.

That conversation and Jacqueline's conversation, I knew just a very little bit about it.

I was 100% unexpected conversation and journey that she went on, and it was just a lovely conversation.

A very true, honest, open.

I'm not hiding anything.

And I loved it, you know, because as humans, like, we're not perfect, and there's so many parts of our lives that are messy and.

And not pretty, if you will.

And, you know, those are the parts that I think make us the most interesting, and I think they bring us to different points.

And I was just so honored that you made that connection and that she wanted to do it.

And it'll be out in January, so.

I can't wait to listen.

I'm so glad.

And she's such a wonderful listener, too, as well as someone who speaks in such an eloquent way.

So it'll be an interesting mix to hear her have to do most of the talking, because although she's a great speaker, you know, I just find she's so such a curious person.

I would be surprised if she didn't try and ask you questions, too.

You know, I've recorded so many since, so I can't tell you if she did.

I can't remember.

But we'll all have to tune in.

To find out, most definitely.

And so kind of to wrap this up, I appreciate your time, and I love that the Patreon members get to hear a little bit more about your experiences and all of your misnamed celebrities and their quotes that you've given us today.

I'm usually pretty good, but you got.

Your Lisa Rinna lip, so we're just gonna.

Oh, did you catch that?

I feel bad.

No.

Shame.

But she's always talking about, you know, owning the.

The lips.

They're pretty iconic.

And so I.

She's known for that.

Yeah.

And every time I see her with long hair, I'm like, I don't.

This doesn't.

Because I used to watch with my grandmother.

I used to watch Days of Our Lives, and she was on it, and she always had short hair.

Oh, wow.

So, yeah.

Anyway, fun fact for people listening, I'd love to kind of End these with, like, a question about storytelling and the power of storytelling.

Is there anything that you found in your journey through acting and having your podcasts and talking to other people?

What would you say is the.

The best part about telling your own story?

Ooh, this is a good question.

You know, while you were talking, and I thought the question was going to go one way, but then I kept following you, so I paid attention.

I fought my add.

I was thinking how shifts and the theme of your podcast are such a huge part of storytelling, obviously, but for an actor, that's something you identify.

And, you know, some might call it the inciting incident and then the climax in every scene.

The shifts are the beats.

They're what make a scene a scene.

They give the conflict.

They're interesting.

And so I guess in telling my story.

So whether the theme of the podcast was the shift or not, I would have talked about this story and shared a bit about my brother, because that is my story.

That is sort of the majority thing in my life.

I think I wrote my college essay on it, you know, so, yeah, it's.

It's part of who I am.

And I think.

I guess.

I don't know if I'm really answering your question, but I think it helped.

Form in a positive way your identity and your connection to kindness because of the things that you experienced around your brother's illness and then his passing, and the things that you saw other people doing for you, for your family, the people around you.

I think it just, you know, like, if we ignore certain parts of our story and we only tell the bright, shiny, beautiful pieces, we're missing the point.

I think we wouldn't understand why you do.

The art of kindness.

Yes.

And I will say, too, it's all about the different ingredients that make up sort of the pie we're serving to keep with the Sara Burles theme later in life.

Because my brother's story, which is, again, a part of mine, and what happened to him and his passing and going through cancer and how the community rallied around us, and we saw so much kindness, from nurses and doctors to neighbors who would, you know, set up a meal train for us, that was something that informed me as a person, taught me so much about kindness, you know?

Cause growing up in a small town in New Jersey that was very preppy and had a lot of bullying and sort of quote, unquote, I hate to say, I guess, snobby people, maybe to survive, people weren't always leading with kindness, myself included.

I was always cracking jokes.

I was always Trying to be very inclusive and friends with everybody.

But that didn't mean I was maybe using kindness in the way I should.

And so to have this happen changed me as a person.

And then later in life, it really hit home during the pandemic with my other experiences of entertainment and sort of the other side of kindness and seeing the lack of it maybe sometimes.

And so those ingredients sort of what were made the art of kindness.

So I think you're right.

It's like you can't have one without the other.

And it's also just really important on a level of human connection.

Because if you want to genuinely connect with someone, nobody likes small talk, right?

I mean, it's really nice to ask someone questions about how they are in the weather and all that, just to say hi and have that little moment.

But what really connects us is, I guess, the tears we have.

You know, it's kind of an interesting thing.

It's almost a paradox, too, in today's world, where it's like you have to disconnect to connect, like, shut the phone off to actually connect with a human.

And I think it's a similar thing.

It's like we all go through our own journeys and we have these little tears that happen, but you sort of need the tear to tie together with someone else.

So I don't know why I always try and get so poetic with you.

And the plane doesn't always land.

But I think you're right.

It's sort of what you said very succinctly in that you gotta share, you know, the messiness of human is.

It's what makes us human.

And I found too, when you don't have the answer in life and you're going through a lot, sometimes it's okay to just say, I'm human.

Well, I think I'll wrap this piece up.

Is, I think, the power of storytelling and what you do and the way that you approach, like, your guests.

A lot of your guests, like, are.

Are big names, right?

Like, people will look at them, they'll stand at the stage door and want their signature, and they'll want those things.

But the conversations that you have make us realize that we're all very similar, that everyone is just living their life.

And someone might be at a different.

You might see them in brighter lights or whatever that may be.

But that doesn't mean you can't connect with their human experience.

And I think the more that we can share our stories, the more that we'll be connected and realize that we don't have that many differences that we try to claim that we do.

Yeah.

And I'll say, too, there comes a point where.

And I think you're obviously there on your journey, and I.

I think I'm there on mine where it's like you just don't want to take everything so seriously.

You know, there comes a point where it's like there is a lot of laughter and grief.

You had an episode where someone was talking about the power of laughter.

I think her name was Debbie.

Deborah.

Yeah.

Did I make that up?

Debbie didn't make it up.

That was a great one.

Go listen, everybody.

And I think there's a lot of light you can lean into too.

And sometimes over analysis is paralysis.

And so it's just such a fine line.

Right.

Like you don't ever want to lean too far in one direction.

And I do find that that sort of human connection is what keeps us balanced.

You know, if you're having a rough day, what helps you?

Maybe going out to see a friend and sort of taking you out of your little microcosm of your bedroom or.

I always find.

Speaking of the honeymoon, when I'm up in a plane and I look down on the world and I see all the little ants and the cars moving, that's very centering for me.

It reminds me that whatever I'm going through was just a tiny dot over there.

And there's a lot, lot going on.

Doesn't mean my tiny dot's not important, but it does mean that there are other important stories being told as well.

And sometimes focusing on others and feeding into others is.

Is important, if that makes sense.

I think it's also healing.

I think that, you know, thank you for doing what you do.

Thank you for being a part of this.

Thank you for coming back and just having a chat.

Whoops, I forgot to record.

No, I'm just kidding.

Everything is good and probably for the best.

No.

Yeah.

No.

Those of you listening, I appreciate, as an indie podcaster, who does it all myself, Robert understands that.

I know you've offloaded a couple things, but it's still a heavy lift.

So thank you guys for supporting.

We're gonna have Robert back to interview me when we do a follow up of Matt's story at some point.

So we'll be old.

Thank you for doing this.

Yeah, well, too late.

I'm already old and gray, so you'll be old and gray and I'll just be.

I mean, I just fell the other day, so I'm.

I'm getting there.

Thank you for having me yeah.

Thank you for doing this.

And I'll be back next month with another bonus episode.

Thank you.

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.