The Illusion of Love: Seeking Validation in a Relationship | Jenny Dreizen

00:00

I think it was a starvation thing. I think I was starved of love and affection. And I felt like if I could just get him to admit, to propose to me, I would get the dopamine hit of, oh yes, he does love me. Today's guest is my friend Jenny Dreizen. Hello to Jenny's friends and her sister Olivia. Jenny is the co-founder of Fresh Starts Registry and she's the co-host of a Fresh Story podcast.

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And as you'll hear in this episode, Jenny's always been someone that marched to the beat of her own drum. She never quite fit in with a specific group of people and really was pretty independent. But when it came to her heart, she ended up in a relationship that challenged her in ways that she could never have expected. She was committed to her partner, but she soon found out that he couldn't quite reciprocate that love and affection that she needed. Of course, we'll talk about the pressure that society puts on us to follow this particular path. And.

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how that can actually impact our relationships. We also talk about the challenges of being in a relationship with someone who just doesn't express love in the same way that we do. And then we talk about how we can navigate that. You'll see that Jenny's journey is not just about love, but it's also about taking control of your own life and making the tough decisions that are necessary for your own happiness. Through her story, we learn about the importance of self-worth and the courage it takes to make a change. But before we get into the episode, I wanna thank my Patreon members for supporting this episode.

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If you want to join our community and get involved in the t-shirt giveaway, check out thelifeshiftpodcast.com forward slash join for more information on all the different tiers that are there. It would mean a ton. This is a powerful episode that I know will resonate with many listeners. So I hope you enjoy this week's episode with my friend Jenny Dreizen. I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:06

Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I have been sitting here for about five minutes now chatting with my friend, Jenny. Hey, Jenny. How are you today, Matt? I'm so good. Jenny is a co-host of A Fresh Story, which is a podcast that I had the pleasure of recording an episode and making Jenny and her sister Olivia cry. Which my every man I've ever dated would tell you is not that hard, but it is significant.

02:36

It was an honor to have a conversation with you guys and share a little bit about a fresh start that I had. But then somehow we went into a different part of my life and we talked a lot about my grandmother and you and your sister have a very similar relationship or had a very similar relationship with your grandmother that I did. And so we kind of bonded over that moment. Yeah, I wonder if you feel the same way that we feel. Like we have these podcasts that are super intimate.

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And so sometimes when we do them with people, we're like, well, I guess we're just best friends now after that, because you have these incredibly intimate, like, eye-to-eye conversations for an hour. And you and I had tweeted a little bit before that, but then after that, I was like, well, I guess this person's part of my family now, so moving forward. Isn't it crazy? And I don't think that regular, maybe regular.

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podcast listeners that aren't in the podcasting community, but listen to podcasts, I think they might feel something a little bit similar in that they know the host or they understand it or they talk back when they're having the conversations. But you're right, when you have deep conversations like you guys do on your show and like I have here. And like you do, yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it's like, well, I won't talk to you again technically about this episode unless

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You initiate it, but also like, let's talk some more because we're friends now or we're part of, we're in a circle, so you're right. Yeah, it feels immediate and it feels very exciting. It feels like this beautiful way of community growth that I've really been enjoying. Yeah, and so on your show, you talk to people about fresh starts, whatever they determine their fresh start is too, which is super cool and refreshing. You've had a lot of great conversations. And so we'll share a little bit about that in the show notes too.

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I recorded with your sister as well, so we'll get a couple different stories and later, well, I guess this is coming out when it comes out. So you're listening to it live and nobody's going to hear this part early. But I appreciate you coming on the show because I think your story is very relatable for a lot of people. But people that are going through a similar situation, which we won't divulge just yet, sometimes I feel like it's super isolating. It feels very...

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very much like, I'm the only one that's going through this. No one else will understand. And so by you sharing your story, I hope someone listening is like, oh, I mean, I hope they're not going through that situation, but I hope if they are, they're listening. I think a lot of people are. I think we can hope all we want, but I think a lot of people are. When I listen to you, you always talk about the checklist lifestyle. And I think that I thought because I...

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my list was in a different font. It wasn't like a funky font that I wasn't doing the checklist lifestyle. And I think that there's a lot of us out there that are like, no, I'm totally living alternatively and I'm not following the rules. And then you're like, oh, I was following the rules. They just kind of, you know, we're in wingdings. Way to call me out. But I do. I feel like so many of us and I think it's our generation ish. We're in a similar generation.

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I think it's the time period. I think it was society. I think it was just like these unwritten expectations of the path that everyone was supposed to take. And I have hope now though, when I see people that are of age now, 2022, 2023, I feel like they have a little bit more freedom or the autonomy to make these choices that may be truly off the beaten path and not just in a different font. Exactly.

06:17

Exactly. Well, to set up the story, maybe you can kind of give us paint a picture of what your life was like leading up to this life shift moment that we're going to talk about today. OK, so the couple of things that I want to like base, like set up our foundation of the story. I have always been a little bit off the beaten path. I never really had a group of people that I was friends with. I had one off friends.

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Schools didn't really know what to do with me. I was like always at the top of my class, but I never really found my people. I would show up to school and like we had a dress code and by my senior year I was wearing like high heels and like very French. Like I just always had to be a little bit different. And one of those things that was different about me was that I was sure that I was never going to get legally married. I was like, this is not something I stand for. I went to college. I was a religious studies major because I was like, how can people like follow religion? What is this? You know, sort of like very like

07:12

I wanted to go to 1964 Manhattan and hang out with Bob Dylan. That's what I wanted. So I went to NYU and I was sure that I was never going to get legally married. My mom and my stepdad are not legally married. My grandmother, my beloved grandmother and my grandfather were not legally married. It was just like, why would you do that? Why would you need to do that? So I'm 22, just turned 23 and had just gotten out of a relationship. I'd reconnected with a high school.

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A guy dated in high school, we were together for a year, it was a terrible relationship. This guy that I met at a party in college, one night at a party, he was a friend of a friend, asked me out on Facebook. I said yes and we went out together. This was my ex, my major ex. We had a really nice start. It was very clear what was going on. It was never vague.

08:06

He got down on one knee like on our third date in a Starbucks and asked me to be his girlfriend. I mean we're 23 and 25 like we're such nerds. That was how it started these big expressions of love. Very clear that he how he felt about me. One of the things that he said to me I just now what 12 years later realized was a line from a song like he was like using things on me you know I had no idea but it started off and it was very the first year we didn't have an argument you know very much like that and

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There were ways that he was young, but I thought, we're young, we're immature. So the relationship progressed, and after that first year, I would say things shifted significantly, and it became very, well, he was from a culture that doesn't express love in a way that I express love, in a way that my family expresses love. They didn't say, I love you a lot, I got him to say that.

09:03

The first time he said, I love you, he said, I love you, and I said, I love you too. And then about five minutes later, he said, I don't know if I actually do love you though. Well, I mean, there's honesty. And I was like, well, this is good. And you'll see, this is like sets us up. I was like, well, do you like being around me? And do you wanna talk? I explained to him. Qualifying it. Yeah, well, love was like, he was a five-year-old. This man was 18 months older than me.

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You know, and I had been in love before and he hadn't, and I explained that away to myself. The relationship progressed, and suddenly I found myself really wanting to get married. After all these years, I'm never gonna get married. I'm never gonna get married. It's not important. You just wanna be with that person. Why would you need to get married? And I really needed to get married. And I really needed to move in with him, which makes sense. I mean, I always wanted to live with somebody. And so, felt like everything that we were doing

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was always an uphill battle. So I'd be like, do you want to move in together? First, when we met, we had no money. The two of us had no money. And so then I got a job at a tech company in the city. And then he ended up getting a job at the same place. And so he was like, we can move in together. But the years previous, he'd be like, well, he was living at home with his parents. And he was like, I really should live with my guy friends first. And I'm thinking to myself, you're 26 years old. Like that's-

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opportunity, that ship has sailed, you know? And also I'm thinking to myself, you are so particular as a person, you would not want to live with guys. Like this is a man like wake up every morning, have a cup of tea, have eggs, everything was very particular and you shower, tea, eggs, news, like scheduled. Yeah, you're not going to enjoy living with other dudes. And so we get an apartment in Queens together and then it really starts where I and I

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I couldn't even understand it until I was out of it. I was like, when are we gonna get married? You know, that conversation. And it felt like everybody around me was just having these men get down on one knee with no problems. And I, for some reason, was here trying to convince someone to get down on one knee and trying to make it so easy for him. I went ring shopping with a girlfriend of mine. Like...

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And it's so sad, right? Because I am deserving of love, I am deserving of excitement, I am deserving of all of those things. And I could not get this guy to do that. And he would be like, well, and I'd be like, I wanna start our life together. And he would say, well, our lives are started together. And I would say, well, and I would say, if it's not that important, then why don't you just do it? And he would say, if it's not that important, then why do you need it? I mean, it was just, we couldn't find a common ground. And, you know.

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I always laugh because Olivia, my sister came to me once and she was like, oh, I found this quote from Cheryl Strayed where Cheryl Strayed says that her kink is men that are completely obsessed with her. And she was like, that's like your kink. And I was like, yes, that's my kink. And then I'm thinking to myself how my boyfriend at the time doesn't wanna hang out with me. If I said, let's just go out to dinner, he'd be like, well, what are we gonna talk about?

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And at this point, we've been together for, let's say, six, seven years. Before you go farther down that it's, you know, you, you built this foundation of your story telling me that you kind of didn't fit in the way, not that you didn't fit in. You didn't gravitate towards a particular group. Yeah. It sounded like you were very, I have my own thoughts. I rule my own world. I make my own decisions.

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And now what you're describing is almost like, this is the one thing you can't control and that's all you want to control. Is that, am I reading that right? Like, if you look back on it. That's a very interesting take. I have a piece, I have a foundational piece to add to this as well, which is that I had, my best, best, best friend in the world from the end of high school through college was this guy who I was, we were completely crazy about each other. He's just not into women.

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and he loved me in the way that felt very fulfilling, but I associated that kind of love with, you don't have sex with that person, right? So this incredibly romantic love that is so kind and loving and aggressive and all those things and not sex, right? So this is the connection that I make. So when I'm sleeping with somebody and they're not that to me, I'm like, well, I guess it's...

13:54

You know, it kind of has to balance out. And then to what you're saying about the control, I think it was a starvation thing. I think I was starved of love and affection. And I felt like if I could just get him to admit, to propose to me, I would get the dopamine hit of, oh yes, he does love me. Right, but also, you know, like you also mentioned, you know, like you were a good student. You have, you know, you're smart.

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Part of it is I think we get wrapped up in our situations and when you put that much time into something. Oh, 100%. Right. 100%. You gotta fight for that when logically, smart, those of us that have the ability to be smart, we know we could probably do it somewhere else, but we've invested all this time, all this energy. It's like going to college for...

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You're like, I went to college for something that doesn't even exist anymore. And it was like, I don't like this to begin with, but I started it. I'm not gonna waste all those classes that I took. May as well finish. Yes, and so there was a lot of that. There was a lot of, there was like, there was such a, and I wasn't conscious, right? You're not consciously doing that, but when... Was anyone else around you telling you that or were you painting a picture that everything was beautiful? I was painting that picture. I mean, my sister knew what was going on. And...

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But he was really integrated into the family. You know, I come from a very traditional, culturally Jewish family. And you don't do things on your own. You do things with everybody. So when I first started dating him, I was living at my parents' house. So he came, would stay at my parents' house, and he really got to know them. And he was integrated in that. He was outside doing housework, and my stepfather, when my sister went into labor, I had a conversation with him, and I said,

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you know, if you're not this kid's nephew, this kid's uncle now, you're never really going to be uncle Andre, right? You're always just going to be Andre. And he was like, I want to be uncle Andre. And so he was invested in that. And all of these things, you know, I knew everything about his finances. I knew everything about his parents, I knew everything about their finances, I talked to his mom about if she should retire or not, our parents knew each other.

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I knew his fail, you know, I was there at his aunt's funeral. He was there at my grandmother's funeral. I mean, you build this life together and he was never mean. That was a big part of it too. He was not a mean. Well, I, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But he never scared me is what I should say. He was, he is not, was not.

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will never be a scary person. I have never, he's never been angry at me to this day. If you might be angry at me after this podcast, but I don't know, but he was never angry at me. He never scared me. We always fought really well. We were really like, we didn't call names. We, you know, he just turned everything back on you and you turned everything back on him. Well, he also never knew how to make me feel better. He also needed, you know, after an argument, he needed space, which I still think

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meant he hoped I would forget about it if he walked away. I needed comfort and connection and reassurance. He needed distance. He never knew how to make me feel better about anything. Like he just had, you know, was incapable of understanding me emotionally. Did you see him provide the love or the ability to love with anyone else around you? I saw him care take more with other people.

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So you knew it was kind of possible? Yeah. Especially towards the end, I noticed it more. If I was going, I would leave places alone a lot when we were out together because I was done. And so I would go home and he wouldn't text me to make sure I was home. He wouldn't say, text me and make sure you're home. There was no concern about that. But when we would leave places and drop a friend off or a friend was leaving, he'd be like...

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Can you really, you have to text us and make sure that you're, you know, and I was like, oh, so you can do it to her, you know, or you can't do it to me, that's interesting. And that's sad for me. He didn't have much concern about that. So yes, we are very invested in each other's lives. And it was, I don't, you know, it's so funny because I look back and it's like, why him? Right, why was I so attached to this guy? And he's funny and smart and all these things, but we didn't really have common interests. We didn't really have.

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common musical taste. He would get hyper fixated on things and I would sort of go along with that, burgers or ramen or something like that. We didn't really have anything to talk about. I remember sitting there talking to him and thinking to myself, fuck, I am so bored. Because he wanted to talk about technology and the new iPhone and things like that. And I wanna talk about connection and people and relationships. And I wanna talk about what we've done together and what we're going to do together. And he thought that was really...

18:58

saccharine and sentimental and didn't want to talk about our past. Like a waste of time. Yeah, which is crazy to me because I'm like, well, that's, we're just going to keep building things we can't talk about then. Right. He wanted to hike and he wanted to, you know, when we were together about two years in, he went and did a quarter of the Appalachian Trail. He want I, you know, I hate camping, you know, we were and so I'm like, why? So you had so much in common. We had, I mean, why this guy? I don't, I really couldn't tell you except for the fact that.

19:28

We built a life together. And speaking of this group of friends, right? I got my job through his friend group, and then he came to work for the company too. And we built this massive group. I mean, we had a wedding planned. We had a hundred friends on the guest list, right? That was our group of friends, of people that loved us. And I never had that before. And that was intoxicating. That was intoxicating. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's...

19:56

I guess you're going to fill in some of the blanks. Because it does. It feels like this was so against the earlier version that you described of yourself. And it was like you were hanging on for something. And I think, let me just read you. I mean, I can relate to this. You feel like you have to see it through to completion. It's a project, not him as a.

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But like, your life experience is like, we're in it. We're building, it's building, it's building. It's gotta be finished at some point, like in a positive way. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple, obviously a couple reasons. I definitely think that I didn't realize how much I worried about what the world thought of me. And if I'm gonna be in a relationship with this guy, I want the world to believe that he is desperately, madly in love with me.

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because that makes me worthy, right, in the world. And I didn't think that the, I couldn't make the world believe that because I didn't believe that. And I had, I talked about, I've talked about this with my therapist, this sort of perfect imperfect thing. I was like, of course we fight, you know, that kind of thing. Like we're not perfect, we're just damn near close, you know? And that was really hard for me. So I needed, it was that worthiness thing. Everybody else.

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all these other girls are worthy. I've been told I'm smart. I've been told I'm beautiful my whole life. Why am I not getting it? Where's mine? Right? And that was a big part of it. And the other big piece of it was I wanted to have kids and he felt safe. Now, domestic equity wise, I mean, that's a whole other conversation. He was doing 5% of the domestic equity. I knew going into having kids with him.

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that I was going to be responsible. And I had a feeling that it would be thrown in my face of like, well, you wanted this. You know, you wanted this, which is crazy because I always, I asked him on the second date if he wanted kids, 23. Crazy. And we do dumb things when we're 20 something. We do. And so I just, and I knew that he would be again, not a scary person. And I had this dream right before we broke up.

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that I had had a baby with somebody who wasn't him. And in the dream I was like, but I don't know this person's values. I don't know if they're going to hit the kid. Like, you know, all these things, because there was, we were aligned, you know, on generally like how we would, you know, approach parenthood. Some major points we were aligned on, the important stuff. You felt physically safe and maybe financially safe. You know, it's funny, I felt physically safe and I felt financially not.

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negotiated by him. I wasn't financially not compromised by him because it's funny, you know, he made a lot more money as we were together. But it never served me. And I always just think that's funny because not that it should serve me, but he never wanted to take care of me with that money. And I knew that if we had kids, I would still have to pull my weight, you know? And because I was already doing so much more domestic labor,

23:20

When we moved in together, we were making down to the cent the same amount of money. And so we split everything 50 50. And we would, I would tell him how much money to put into our joint bank account. It was like $1,200 each a month or something that covered, you know, rent and groceries and things like that. And eventually I made probably 50 grand less than him because my salary went down and his went up and I was like, okay, we really need to renegotiate this. Cause it's not fair.

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And I think it ended up being that he put in $100 a month more because I was like, if I give up my financial equity, he's going to expect me to do more domestic labor. And honestly, I don't know what I was worried about. I couldn't do more domestic labor. There was nothing else for me to do. I mean, I was already doing everything. So there was a lot, a 10 year relationship. I mean, there was a lot going on. I also felt part of the unworthiness was around my weight, around my body, which...

24:17

I was proven right after we broke up and I'll get to that. But I felt that if I was thinner, he would have proposed. And I'm not, I mean, not that it matters, but I'm like an 8'10", you know? Like, and when he met me, I was about the same size, but I felt, and I actually do believe that to be true. And so there was like a lot of worthiness stuff around that. Is that, was that a lifetime thing that you felt that way? Or was this mostly- No, he brought that on for me. He brought that on. Mm-hmm.

24:45

Was it just like side comments and things? Yeah, like if I was wearing all black, I'd be like, are you going out for a run? You know, that kind of thing. I mean, he was the one that got me into running, which I don't think was about that. I think it was more of activity to do together. But then it became kind of like I could just I don't know. Like there was a lot of little comments about stuff like that. And then later after we broke up, he mentioned that it was an issue for him. And I was like, you got to deal with that on your own. That's not that's not on me, my friend. Like that's your own internalized fat phobia.

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I don't know what to tell you. Or go find somebody who's built differently because this is how I'm built. And so I knew that. So we would have these big arguments around moving forward together. Because I felt really unloved. And so I always say like the thing that you fight, you only fight about one thing as a couple, right? So I felt that every time anything came up,

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It was really about that. So I was doing so much domestic labor because I wanted him to see, like, aren't I so good? How can you deny this woman? She's going to be the best wife and mother and everything. So then it would come out. That's what would come up. Like if he was like, oh, you know, you put a lot of pepper on this. I'd be like, you know, it would go and we would have these arguments. But good fighters, we name call, you know, whatever. So perfectly imperfect piece. Perfectly imperfect. Exactly.

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so unconcerned about what the world thinks of me, right? So then we go to the islands. My dad used to go to this island every year. We didn't go this year. That's why I say used to. And he comes and it's his, Andre's first year coming to the island. And about two years previous, I had sent him an engagement ring and I knew that he bought it because I accidentally found it in the house.

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And I told him immediately after, perfectly imperfect. And so I knew he'd had it for two years, which by the way, caused a lot of arguments in those two years of what's wrong with me that you won't give me this ring that you have in your bedside table, right? So we go to the islands and we're walking on this, you know, one day he's like, oh, do you wanna go on a hike? I'm like, no, I don't wanna do that. He's like, well, let's go down to the beach. And we go down to the beach and he gets on one knee and he says, do you want this ring?

27:04

Not, do you want to marry me? Not, will you be my wife? Not whatever. Not, I love you so much, we've been together for X amount of years. And I've been building this moment up in my head of I'm finally gonna feel what I need to feel. I'm finally gonna get a shot of dopamine, whatever it is that adrenaline's gonna hit. And I'm gonna feel loved. Like if you picture one of those thermometers that you like, you know, like you know, thermometer, but the thing that you hit at the fair and it goes up all the way, like it's finally gonna hit the top.

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And I'm like, and I laughed, it was very funny the way he did it, and I laughed, and then we walked up the beach, and I was like, ask me the question, and he said something like, do you wanna be my wife? And I said, maybe, which I thought was very cute, you know? We go and we tell my dad, and whatever. We planned the wedding, and the argument stopped, right, after a while, for a while, and then May.

28:01

Our wedding was scheduled for May 2020. What happened that year? Exactly, not a big year. So my bridal shower was March 8th, 2020, March 9th or something like that. Right before. And he lost his job the next Wednesday because he got laid off because of COVID stuff. And my sister called me maybe two weeks after COVID hit and she was like, hey, maybe you want to call the wedding venue.

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and see if they can reschedule you so that you're the first bride to reschedule. And I lost it. I was like, this was my moment. This was my time. I was supposed, I'm a middle child, you know? So there's also that going on. And I was like, this is supposed to be my time. And I'm hysterically crying. And it is like, it is happening to me and only me. And this guy, did he know we had a wedding planned? But like, he is unbothered, completely unbothered. And so we...

28:58

For the next year, we go back and forth between, well, so that's March, let's say. In October, I don't even know what happened. I can't even tell you what happened. He and I had the biggest fight we'd ever had to the point where he said, I'm not sure I'm still in love with you. And I was like, okay, we gotta, I can't, we gotta go, we gotta pause. And I called my brother, whose girlfriend lived at the time in Astoria, and we both lived there, so.

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my brother came and met me and I'd never done this before. We solved things together, we solved things together, he and I, what I mean is he got tired of arguing and walked away and I got tired of feeling unloved and relented so going to my brother was a huge, I'd never done anything like that before. He's my little brother by four years and very wise and we walked around and.

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I got back to the apartment. My brother was like, people say things and they get upset, blah, blah, blah. I got back to the apartment and I just remember thinking, I can't let this go. Not the argument. I can't let the relationship go. I was not ready. We got back and I got back and he was- Not ready to stop it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You got to save this. Yes. This is it. I can't- I got to make him love me again. Yes.

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And he got back and I remember standing across the kitchen from him and I was like, I don't know what I said to him, but I was like, I, I know you love me or something like that. Again, convincing him that he loves me. I mean, like literally they love you. No, you do. Seriously. You do. Yeah. Yeah, you do. Yeah. And I said something like, I, you know, I'm not ready or I don't want, Oh, let's fight with something. And I remember thinking his face with

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light up or that he would rush at me and kiss me and he didn't. You know, so we keep living life. March 20, 20, we we've clicked, cancel the wedding, reschedule the way. And we finally like maybe around February 20, 21. I was like, I'm done doing this cancel reschedule thing. We're canceling for now. Like we still didn't feel safe having a wedding. We're just going to call it for now and we'll move on with our lives. I don't need to get married.

31:21

Right. I never wanted to anyway. Exactly. I'm turning 33 around this point. My birthday is in July. So it's let's say it's March now. It's our 10 year anniversary. And there's a video of us toasting on our 10 year anniversary. And I say, I love you. And he toasts. He just clinks my glass and doesn't say it back. It's so sad and.

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On top of that, also his birthday was in February, I had scheduled, planned all of our friends to do like one of those videos where like everybody records a little piece. And he's sitting there watching, we had a projector, so it was a whole wall of TV. He's going to nobody, because our friends aren't actually there, just me in the room. I love you guys, oh my God, I love Elena, I love Greg, I love Amelia. And I'm thinking to myself, he never once said, thank you for doing this, I love you so much, you really get me, nothing.

32:16

Never, never. Didn't say anything to him. And I was like, I think I finally was like, can you say thank you to me? And he got pissed, of course. So March comes, our anniversary. And then I'm like, let's just have a baby. Let's just have a baby. So. That's the solution. Things are working great. Things are happening great. I'm like, let's just have a baby. It's not uncommon though. No, it's not. I don't think, I think that's a very common feeling when everything feels out of control. It feels like.

32:46

Well, that's something that I can do and it would be good. I believed that it was something that I needed in my life and that was a complete non-negotiable for me at that point. And I would be fucking damned if that man took away my choice to do that. And I felt very angry about that. You will not remove that option from my life. That is something that I want. You've always known that you've had 10 years, decades.

33:15

And you asked him or you told him early. Yeah, he was 37 years old, maybe 36 or something like that. Like, right. This is not a child. This is a grown man that worked in tech, making $150,000 a year. He was capable of having a baby. And we've been a couple for all this time. Our parents were around. Our parents are getting older. His mom's about to retire. I mean, all these things, right? Yes. So we have these conversations.

33:42

So you suggested it. So he knew, yeah, so I wrote a script with my therapist and I went to him and I said, this is what I wanna do. I wanna start trying in June. This is maybe May. He said, I think he must've eeked out an okay. And I went back to my therapist and I was like, oh my God, it's gonna be okay. I had said to her, what happens if he doesn't agree? And she was like, we'll find you a sperm donor. We'll do the next thing. But it was okay, don't worry. I don't have to blow up my life. It's.

34:12

It's gonna be fine. Don't worry about it. And then there were three Thursdays in June until we broke up The first Thursday we had my whole family over for my brother's birthday And it was awful like we were awful like it was just awkward with each other The second Thursday was my I'm sorry Wednesdays three Wednesdays The second Wednesday was my dad's birthday, and I don't remember what the conversation that day was But I do remember it was the first and only time I've worried he was gonna not show up

34:41

to a family event when I was expecting him and just ghost me. And he did. And again, my sister's boyfriend at the time took a picture of us, my little sister's boyfriend, and he sent it to us that weekend because he didn't know. And it was like the saddest photo I've ever seen of myself. Like he didn't want to touch me. You can tell in the picture, like my ex did not want to be around me. And so then, I'm finally at my life shift moment. So then the third Thursday, we, I think we went, I think I went to go get like takeout.

35:10

And I came back, maybe we didn't, maybe we hadn't, and we were gonna watch Loki. We're gonna start Loki. And, let me set, I gotta set some other stuff up first. My dad had a cat, and the cat was named Elvis. And my dad got the cat when my little sister was living with him. And she'd since gone to college moved out. My brother had come back from university and moved in with my dad in a one bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. So my dad...

35:40

my brother and Elvis the cat live together. My brother is very allergic to cats but has fallen in love with this cat. The cat is not doing well. Thursday morning, June 17th, the cat was gonna be put down. So the plan was on Thursday morning, my dad, my brother and my brother's girlfriend Bridget and the corpse of the cat would come to Queens because Bridget lived in Queens and I lived in Queens.

36:08

get in my car, my Honda CRV, and we would drive out to my mother's house. Why my ex wasn't gonna come? I have no idea. I mean, he was very much part of the family. We would drive out to my mother's house where we would bury the cat on the front lawn of my mother's house. Okay. So that is happening over here to my right as I'm just circulating for the podcast audience. So we're gonna watch, back to Queens, June 16th, 2021.

36:37

Andre and I are about to watch Loki. And I'm like, I don't know, like we were just off. We were just off. And I go to the bedroom to take out my contacts. And I take out my contacts. And as I'm taking them out, the tears just follow. And I fall on the bed. And I'm like, something has to change. And I walk out of the bedroom and Andre's on the couch and he's like, what is, we hadn't been fighting. He's like, what's wrong? And I said,

37:07

We have to figure this out. Like, I can't keep doing this. And he goes, no, no, let's just watch Loki. It's gonna be fine. And I said, no, we need to figure this out. And we're sitting, we're facing each other on the couch. And I don't remember exactly what the lead-in was, but pretty quickly he said, I've been thinking about this a little bit. And the thing is, I don't think I'm in love with you anymore. And I don't think that we should have a baby together. And I said,

37:38

Okay, thank you for your honesty because suddenly I didn't feel crazy anymore. I felt crazy for so long. Where, you know, when we went to bed at night, I always said, good night, baby, I love you. And he couldn't even verbalize it. He would be like, I'm sorry, too. Like, I mean, it was like, really, I was, I was, it was ridiculous to me. And I come from an I love you house, you know, and he didn't. And I, you know, made excuses for that. But

38:07

10 years in, he couldn't even say I love you to me before he went to bed at night. And I said, OK, OK, thank you for telling me that. And I took off my engagement ring, which is a beautiful, completely worthless ring, black diamonds. I mean, again, I had to be different. And now I have it's worth nothing. What am I going to do with it? And I can't keep it. Listen, I love it, but I'm not going to put it on my ring finger. And I took off my ring. And I could.

38:38

When I tell you Matt, I saw the clouds parting on my life. I saw the sun streaming down onto a country road, which I don't know, maybe it was a road in Scotland and I didn't know what was coming up for me next. It was, I was so sad and I was so scared. But in that moment, I knew that I had dodged a fucking bullet and I knew that my life was gonna be so good.

39:08

And he said, we talked that whole night. And he said something like, it's gonna be fine. And I said, no, it's gonna be great because we're leaving fine behind. Like this is fine. But we have to go make it better because otherwise we could just stay here and keep paying a very reasonable rent. Yeah, exactly. So we spent that evening packing as much stuff as we could in my car.

39:35

or packing up as much stuff as we could. And then we loaded my car the next morning. And it's funny, so he was never a cuddler. And I'm a fucking like Leo. Like, I want to like snuggle and cuddle and like I'm like a cat. Like I just want well, like an affectionate cat. I want to be sort of like somebody's, you know, I want to be held and never a cuddler. And that night we went to go lie down and he's holding me.

40:03

For the first time in our relationship, I'm getting what I need. And he's holding me and I'm crying and we're crying together. And I said, I don't know if I'll be able to sleep. And he said, you'll be fine. Rolled over, turned away, fall right asleep. And I was like, okay, and we're back. And so we woke up the next morning, we packed up my car and my dad and my brother and my brother's girlfriend and the dead cat all got in the car too.

40:32

And, you know, I was lucky that I knew that if I did approach it that day, in that moment, with the out, I knew that my dad could drive my car. So if I was crying, I would, you know, I would be okay. I knew that this confluence of events that I was like, no, we're not, we're not going to do it again. I can't sweep it under the rug again. There's no more corners. There's lumps all over our rug, you know, and that was it. And so we I came out here and

41:01

and I moved into this bedroom that I'm in right now. I wonder, I'm kind of thinking like, you know, you went through your own inner hell, right? For 10 years of fine. I think that was a nice way of describing it in a sense of like you were trying and trying and trying and setting up the part about your dad's cat. And the idea that that cat had that last day.

41:30

and the next day, move on to whatever's next for a cat that is put down. I wonder if there's a significance in the idea that you know that that was the cat's last day on Earth. Well, my ex's last name was Cats, too. Well, there's that attachment now that we've just blasted them here on the podcast. I think it's interesting because subconsciously...

41:58

I could imagine that you know that your family really likes that cat and they're going to be devastated at the end of that relationship with that particular animal. I wonder if that's kind of what triggered this last like, oh crap, this could be me and was my life going to be fine? Not that you're going to be put down, but you know, I wonder if there's something. Right. Well, you were doing that for 10 years. Yeah. That's really interesting. I mean...

42:28

That's very interesting. We never know what our subconscious is doing. I think animals too. Animals are so vital to families and to, you know, communities. And it was interesting because that cat and the cats.

42:43

I'm allergic to cats, so I can't actually like pet cats. I always say they're theoretical to me because as far as I know, they're just a simulation. I can't really touch it, which, you know, we have a cat now and my parents have a cat now and it rubs against me, so I know it's real, but that cat, you know, brought the family together in a way that I knew I was gonna need. We're a blended family, so we are not, my dad and my stepdad aren't often in the same room, but I knew that they were going to be the next day. And...

43:13

It was almost like the wedding that I never had, where I had all my family together the next day. So the cat sort of was the catalyst of that situation. There was another element, which is there, my parents had a dog that my ex was really close to, that he never got to see again. And I always felt really guilty about that for the dog because the dog really liked him too. And I do think that the way that animals play into the, our lives and our relationships is not insignificant.

43:43

I just, I don't know, it's, you know, the way I see you now, I don't know you very well. Like we said, we had that conversation on your podcast and now we're family, but, and now I know all this and this version of you that I see now and the version of you that you described before you got in this relationship is vastly different than the woman that was, I don't even know, it was almost like you were trapped in your own

44:14

Like you were trapped in your own box and he just happened to be the box. Like you were, you know, searching for, almost searching for the way out, whether that was going to be commitment that he joins you as part of the box, or if it was, you know, like, how do I get out of this box? Because, you know, the way you describe things is, if you look back on it now, you're probably like, well, why did I make that decision? Why did I fight so hard for this?

44:42

He told me before that he didn't know if he loved me more than once, right? Like that was the second time at least, right? And you were still in a space, and this is where like, I think a lot of people can relate, is that you just like, if you stepped outside of your body and looked at what you were doing, you'd be like, why am I doing that? But when you're in it, you just don't really kind of realize. And it's so fascinating that 10 years. Yeah.

45:12

against everything that you said you didn't want to do. You're not gonna get married. And that's what you were fighting for for 10 years. So you always wanted to have a kid though, just not legally married. I always wanted to have kids, yeah. I just didn't want to get legally married. Yeah, I mean, and it's funny, because I used to say to him, if your female friends came to you and said, this is how my partner's treating me, you would be upset for them. So I knew it wasn't.

45:39

okay, the way that he was treating me and the way that we were together and what was going on in our home. But I think talking about the sunk cost fallacy from an economics principle versus realizing you're living the sunk cost fallacy are two really different things. I love Freakonomics and stuff like that and Radiolab and I can talk about it all day, but

46:09

you know, there was, it was always like, too, like, what am I going to do? Break up with him because of this? Like, what do we, you know, it's like, because everything, nothing was as significant, right? It was a pile of what am I going to do? Break up with him because of this, you know, and because of this small thing and this small thing. And there was nothing until, you know, he said what I couldn't unhear at a time that I could, I couldn't unhear it because he'd said it before. But I just was like at a point where I

46:37

And I do think there were other things that came into play. I mean, I think you learned a lot about yourself, though. I did. I learned so much. Yeah. I mean, I I'm so glad I there. You know, 10 years is a long time to be with someone. Twenty three to thirty three. So often in that relationship, we both did it. You know, you would look back when you're thirty two and be like, well, don't do that thing that you do.

47:05

And he would be like, I haven't done that thing in eight years. You know, I haven't done that behavior, sorry, that behavior in eight years or whatever. And I so badly wanted to walk into another relationship as my 33 year old self and not as my 23 year old self and all those fucked up things that you do and all the things that you say and whatever it is, you know, and not having had all those experiences with that person, but getting to have the results of all those experiences as you and.

47:33

It was a relief. It was a real, because I would think about that. I'd be like, I'm never going to convince him that I'm not who I was when I was 23. I, you know, I couldn't convince him of that. And telling somebody that doesn't help either, you know, repeating it over and over again is not a convincing argument. But getting to walk out of that relationship at 33 being the result of all of those things was really nice. I bet it felt like a weight being lifted, you know, like what what was the biggest difference?

48:03

about you when you were no longer in that relationship? Like, did you notice things about you that were different? I realized that I had worried so much about what people thought of me, and I realized that I couldn't do that anymore. And I realized how much of what I, the way I presented myself and the way I formed my life, I mean, I do think the decision to stay was so much about what people thought. Yeah, of course. You failed. And I...

48:31

I failed. Yeah. And so... Or that's the perception that you have if you left. That I wouldn't... Like this again, this concept that I'm worthy of love. And so I wanted so badly for people to think that for so long, which is like, I have no idea where that came from. We can break that down in another podcast probably, but... That's for your therapist. Exactly. And so I walked out of it, and I did some crazy things immediately after walking out of it, like booking a trip to Scotland to visit a guy that I had met.

49:00

once 12 years ago for two weeks. And I thought, I don't give a shit what people think if they think that's crazy. Now, I canceled that ticket the night, four hours after I booked it, but it was important to book it. I needed to book that ticket. And because I realized I don't give a shit what people think of me because I just did an engagement. Like, what a sentence. Like, that's not a thing that I thought I was ever going to say and did an engagement. I mean,

49:27

I had four wedding dresses. You know, we were gonna have a ceremony on a different day than the reception, and there was two reception dresses. I mean, I was doing the whole big wedding thing. It was all performative, though, it sounds. It was so performative. Like, what are people gonna think? Look at these dresses, look at this event. Yeah, and aren't they gonna be so impressed? And aren't they gonna, and he made it clear to me, he was like, I'm not really gonna hang out with you at the wedding, because I know you, basically. I'm excited to see everybody else, and it was like, you know, and that was sad to me, but I was like,

49:57

understand that I can understand, you know, I can, I'm smart. Because we're still going to get married. I can write, we're finally going to get married. And maybe the vows, which we're doing prior, we're doing a ceremony that was just our immediate family. Maybe when he said his vows, he would finally say the thing because I didn't say this before, but I knew that the proposal wasn't good for me. And I knew I was going to have to walk through life with that, knowing that never saying that to him.

50:25

Never uttering it because how ungrateful of me. So I was like, maybe the vows, maybe the vows. I knew that he wasn't gonna like my dress. And I knew that I was gonna know that our whole wedding day that he didn't like my dress. I knew that I wasn't gonna walk down the aisle and he wasn't gonna go, oh my God, you're the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my whole life. And I was gonna have to live with that. And I knew that probably the vows that he was gonna say weren't gonna hit the spot.

50:50

You know, as much as you describe this relationship and the things that were not great, they really taught you something that moving forward, because now you're in a very happy relationship that doesn't have those elements, and had you say you hadn't been with your ex for a long period of time, maybe you would have just jumped to the next person that did the same thing.

51:18

maybe you would have jumped to the next person that did the same thing and never really got that because like you said it's kind of like just stacking little thin pieces of paper, you know, and like eventually it's a ream. Exactly. But when you just look at one sheet, it's not so much. So, you know, there's a lot of learning that can come from that and probably makes what you have now that much more special and

51:43

and feel like you deserve all of this and that you're worthy of every little piece that is the happiness that comes with it. Yeah, I think that I clearly had to learn that lesson over and over and over again until I was ready to hear it in my last relationship. And I've alluded to this, but I met my now-fiance, which is ironic, because I now legally have to get married because I'm moving to a foreign country. And so I met my now-fiance when I was 22.

52:13

31, he's nine years older than me. And we had some connection, we had some flirtation. There was no way that would have been a successful relationship at that time. Besides the, you know, because of the age difference, but also because of who I was and because of who he was. And so I am so grateful. I know for that experience of being with Max, I could not have left a day sooner than I did. I'm very aware of that. Literally, I mean, quite literally.

52:40

I could not have left a day sooner. That relationship lasted exactly as long as it was supposed to. And I get to walk into this. I got to walk into my relationship with Thomas, my fiance.

52:53

33 years old, much more self-possessed, much less concerned about what the world thinks of me. Always on the edge of reminding myself, you don't have to, yeah, I'm a human, right? Like I have to think I'm American. Like I often have to remind myself, like other people's opinions of you are not your business over and over again. And telling a different story about myself, really, I mean, is what it comes down to. Like,

53:20

the story I told, the narrative I told around myself, my family, you know, very different from 22 to 33 years old. And I'm grateful for that. Cause yeah, and walking into a relationship and being like, you mean they can just like really like you and wanna be around you all the time? And like me being with somebody that meets me emotionally and you know, I always say like, I think my ex and I were more of an opposite to tract kind of thing. And like

53:49

But do you want to do that for the rest of your life? Because that's not fun, to constantly be pulling somebody in and being like, no, this is how I see things. And listen, my relationship with my fiance now, we're not even two years in yet. But it's different. It's really different. Yeah. You know, before we started recording, you said, I'm a people pleaser. And it makes sense why you stayed in that relationship for as long as you did, for many reasons. And I think that.

54:16

you're not the only person that's ever done that. You're not the only person that's listening now that's in a relationship like that, that doesn't yet know it's time to get out. And so what I take from your story is that like, you had to go through this shitty time in your life, looking back at it, right? At the time it was probably- Yeah, because at the time it didn't feel shitty, it felt fine. But you were also probably- Depressed. You were probably covering that up.

54:43

as well, you were probably telling yourself that everything's fine, I just have to do this, and then when I do this, this will get better, and I'll be able, and so a lot of these conversations, we talk about these things like, I can't believe I did all that, or I can't believe that happened to me, but at the same time we're like, oh, I needed that. I wouldn't be, you wouldn't be this Jenny if you hadn't gone through all of that, and you wouldn't be in this.

55:11

type of relationship now, had you not experienced all that. And crappy as it is that you had to spend 10 years learning that lesson, there's still value in our human experience. And I think that's what's so important about what you guys are doing on your podcast. And what I'm trying to do here is that, like, this is the human experience. It's not this checklist to follow. It's not pretty all the time. It shouldn't be performative all the time. It should just be real.

55:41

And sometimes it sucks. And it's very hard to get out of that. And I get that. And I wrote in an advice column this past weekend, like, you have to repeat to yourself, I have to repeat to myself over and over again, other people's opinions if you are not your business. When you're not worried about other people's opinions, when you're on your own, when you're making your bed, because you need to make it your reflexive thought. And eventually it'll really get into your brain because there is such a danger.

56:11

in doing, oh, this is the thing we're supposed to do next. And then we're supposed to do this. You know, I've been watching couples therapy on Showtime. And so many of the couples are like, well, we had kids because that's what you do after you get married. There is such a danger of the unexamined life and the un-interrogated life and just plodding along and doing what, you know, things. I always say like, I'm a former good girl. And I always did the good girl thing, you know, I...

56:37

I went to high school, I graduated with honors. I went to college, I graduated with honors. I met a nice guy, Jewish, you know? And like, you know, I did the whole thing. And like, look where it got me. I mean, look where, I mean, yes. But it got me where I needed to be, but you know where it didn't get me? Where I wanted to, like. Where you thought you wanted to be. Yeah, I mean, like, it's complicated because it got me exactly where I need to be, right? But like.

57:03

Imagine if I had, I mean, I obviously my life turned out exactly the way it's supposed to. But I hope somebody, I hope somebody else sees it and says, you know what, fuck what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm going to go do what I want to be doing, you know, and I'm going to go pursue my joy. And that's what I always say. Like the two things that I always say on our podcast are, it doesn't have to be bad for it not to be good.

57:28

because you deserve so much better than fine. Don't let it be fine. You know, so many people I talk to are like, it's fine, you know, it's okay. We've been together a long time, or he's this, or he's, you deserve so much better than fine. There is unlimited joy out there. There's not a limit on how much joy people get, and there's not a limit on how much, you know, we can share it all, it's unlimited.

57:52

And to be in the pursuit of joy and to feel joy every single day in your life, that is what you deserve. And you deserve to be with somebody that really wants to see that joy for you too. If that's what you want, if you wanna be with somebody, or many somebodies, whatever you want, you deserve to be with people, community, loved, by people that want to bring out the joy in you. And just so you know, Jenny, you are always worthy of love. Thank you. And I know I'm...

58:20

I'm sorry that you had to fight so hard to learn that, but I'm glad that you found that now. I appreciate you taking the time to join and share a messy part of your life. I'm not saying that to insult you in any way. I think it was a very tragic part. I think a lot of women, I think a lot of men, I think a lot of people.

58:48

can relate to that experience. And I appreciate that you are so open about it and willing to share it because you weren't before, right? Everything's fine, guys. Everything's, don't look over here. We are, we don't, we have good fights. We are. Yeah, exactly. We're good fighters. We were like the couple, you know, we were the long-term couple of the group. And it was, I remember one of,

59:17

his friends, like girlfriends, was like, you guys are so cute. And I like held onto that for so long, you know? Yeah, we're cute. We're that cute couple that's been together forever, but we're still doing, you know, we're still together and we're still so cute. And it was, yeah, it was a lot to hold together and I really felt like I was the only one holding it together. And I receive what you are saying and I so strongly feel so many of us good girls get ourselves into these situations. And if I can tell my story,

59:48

and I can make somebody else go, oh my God, you know, my, my fiance, partner, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, doesn't tell me that they love me and any and that's the, uh, that's kind of fucked up. And I should probably examine that because they're not mean and they're not scary, but that doesn't mean I have to stay. If I can just make one person like sort of shake them awake with my story, then it's, it's completely worth it. Because it was not easy for me. And it was

01:00:16

The problem with stopping caring about what people think is that you really stop caring about what people think and then you just kind of let it all go. So I am grateful to share that story and I feel fortunate that I get to wave from the other side and say, look guys, like there's something else over here and there can be great love and great joy and great friendship. And the connections that I've made because of the vulnerability I've now been able to display.

01:00:45

with my girlfriends who were always there for me, but who I was... Pretending. Cutting off that relationship, yeah, because I didn't wanna admit it. And how many girlfriends were like, yeah, I never really got you guys. They were like, but I trusted you. I trusted that if you were there, you were happy, but I never got it. And now I look back, I'm like, I don't get it either. Well, I mean, I think we have to live the life that we're going through, and then hopefully...

01:01:12

we have the opportunity to reflect on it and build from there and grow from there. And so I appreciate you sharing your story and I encourage anyone listening to connect with you and your sister, take a listen to your podcast, check out the company that you guys are doing amazing things with, you have a new book out. So I'll include all those links in the show notes. I just appreciate you. So thank you for being here. I've been so excited about.

01:01:37

coming on this podcast for literally months. I've been like counting down to it and so excited to tell this story in this way and to get to tell it, you know, it's kind of, this story ends up being part of our foundational story of our company, but I get to tell like this much of it. And it is, I just feel very honored to be able to tell it and to be invited on this podcast. And it's one of my favorite podcasts. So I am, it's very exciting. Thank you.

01:02:05

I will receive that. I'm not very good at compliment taking, but thank you for that. And if you're listening out there somewhere and you want to take a little time to give a little five-star rating and review, I would love that. And if not, that's okay too. You might be busy or you might not be able to. You might be driving. Don't do it. Safety first. I will see everyone back next week with a brand new episode of the LifeShift Podcast.

01:02:42

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com