The Courage to Dream Again: Leah Fisher's Transformative Marriage Sabbatical

Leah Fisher
00:00:00

What it triggered and what it shifted was, when it's my turn to die, what am I really going to regret not having done? And boom, there was the dream. It had been in my back pocket for the better part of 40 years. Like it was there, but that wasn't where my focus was.

Suddenly it slipped out of my pocket and it was right in my face.

Matt Gilhooly
00:00:28

Today's episode is with Leah Fisher and we had such a great time in this.

In fact, after the fact, she said that she really enjoyed our conversation and at first she had to learn the dance, but once she learned the dance of our conversation, she had a really great time. So I hope that you can hear that within this episode. I think you'll be able to.

But Leah is a retired psychotherapist who really kept dreaming on a dream that she put in her back pocket for so many years. So she took this dream beyond the conventional way that I think so many of us would do.

And she took a life changing solo marriage sabbatical in her 60s.

Her journey is really this, I don't know, testament to the power of being bold and audacious and having the courage to pursue these long held dreams no matter where you are in your life. In this episode, she shares this story of embracing the unknown.

From her, dare I say, transformative experiences in the Amazon jungle to these heartfelt encounters around the world during her sabbatical. This really is just an episode about self discovery and the healing power of storytelling and redefining what it means to live a fulfilling life.

So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Leah Fisher. Without further ado, here is that conversation.

I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is the Life Shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Leah. Hello, Leah.

Leah Fisher
00:02:17

Hi.

Matt Gilhooly
00:02:18

Thank you for joining. Thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast.

Leah Fisher
00:02:22

First of all, I am indeed happy to participate.

Matt Gilhooly
00:02:27

Well, we were talking a little bit before recording and I really hope that this show is something that people look at as like these conversations that they wish people were having. These like real conversations with real questions that maybe we shy away from asking or sharing these particular stories.

So it's just been such a journey. You're. I think I've talked to like 165 people now in this little journey that started out as a school assignment during the Pandemic.

I got a second master's degree and I took a podcasting class and I had to start. Well, I Didn't have to start a podcast. I just had to do two episodes. And I did. And the Life Shift podcast was born in that class.

And the show really stayed. Stems from my own personal experience. When I was 8, my mom was killed in a motorcycle accident. And that day, my dad.

I was visiting my dad, who my parents lived. My dad lived in Georgia, my mom lived in Massachusetts.

And on that day, I walked into my dad's office, and he sat me down and he had to tell me that my mom had died in the accident. And at that moment in time, everything that was ever going to exist in my life changed, right? I lived with my mom full time.

I was just visiting my dad, who lived in a different state. So everything my school changed, my. My parent essentially changed. The way that I was growing up was going to change.

And this was late 80s, early 90s, and at that time, people weren't really talking about therapy or grief or those kind of things. And especially for a kid, or at least in the. In the world that I lived in, people weren't doing that.

And so growing up, I just felt, do other people have these, like, line in the sand moments in which life is just so different after that moment?

And so I've had this opportunity to talk to so many people about many, many life shifts and my naivety or my naivete at the beginning that maybe we only have one big life shift. It's not true. We have a lot of them, and we have a lot of different shifts in our lives that have brought us here.

And so I'm just so honored that people like yourself and, you know, basically strangers across the world, I've had this opportunity to learn and grow and heal from. So that's a little bit about where the show comes from for anyone that's listening for the first time. And.

And for you, Leah, So thank you for being on this journey.

Leah Fisher
00:04:45

It's quite a painful way to discover an incredible gift that you can share with people.

Matt Gilhooly
00:04:52

You know, it is.

And, you know, this was 35 years ago or so, and I look back at it now and look at all the things that I have done and learned because of such a tragic moment in my life. And it's so weird to look back with, like, a gratefulness of the things that have happened because of it.

Not grateful for the moment, but grateful for the journey that I went on afterwards. And I think that takes a lot to be able to reflect on that.

And, like, it took me a long time to get here, but, you know, like, it takes a lot to Be able to look back and go, well, here are the good things that came from such a tragic experience. And I'm sure you probably have experienced things like that in your life where you're like, that really sucked. But look what I've done with it.

Is that true?

Leah Fisher
00:05:41

Yes, at the best of times.

Matt Gilhooly
00:05:43

At the best of times? Well, yes. Fair. Well, I think, you know, it's just a wonderful opportunity. And here's a little disclosure for you.

And I don't know if you know this, most of my listeners know this, but I don't do a lot of research about my guests. All I know is the intake. I know you have a book.

We're going to talk a little bit about your book, but I didn't read any of it because I truly want these conversations to unfold in the way that I think the universe wanted them to. And I want to discover those things for the first time when you tell them.

Leah Fisher
00:06:11

That's great, Matt. I happen to be someone who loves surprises, so let's surprise each other.

Matt Gilhooly
00:06:18

I'm here for it. So before we get into your detailed story, maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are in today's world.

Leah Fisher
00:06:28

Okay.

Who I am today is a retired psychotherapist who sat in a chair having intimate and rather loving conversations with a lot of people, with individuals and with couples for about 35 years.

Matt Gilhooly
00:06:44

Wow.

Leah Fisher
00:06:45

Yes. And I closed down my practice in order to take the one year solo sabbatical, which is what my book is about.

And it was not only a sabbatical from my career, it was a sabbatical for my husband. Not because I had a desire or a reason to be away from him for a year, but because I wanted something so much.

And he didn't share that desire, at least not at that time that the two of us talked until we agreed that he would do what he wanted and I would do what I wanted, and we'd visit back and forth. And so that was the year of exploring the world on my own.

Matt Gilhooly
00:07:36

That is probably something that a lot of people probably wish they could. You also just kind of gave away the secret right here at the beginning, which is. Which is, you know, it just happens that way. But I love that.

First of all, 35 years of doing what you did, how does that. Before we get into your story, how does that affect you as a human and how, like, do you absorb those things? Do you bring them home with you?

Did you find a way to leave them there? Like, I can imagine the things that you heard and. And how you had to process, like, how do you as a human function through 35 years of that?

Leah Fisher
00:08:11

That's a great question, and a lot of people ask me. And the bottom line is that I'm a caring and a compassionate person, but my role in the therapeutic relationship is certainly a heart connection.

But it's also helping to figure something out, helping patients to see what they have seen and experienced and also what options they might not have thought of, to have thoughts about where something came from. But perhaps there's something additional. And so it's a combination of loving and problem solving, and I'm able to do both in the session.

I guess I don't carry it home and suffer it because I have a task. And I think many therapists, if they thought hard about it, would. Would realize that it's not just pulling at your heartstrings.

You care, you feel compassionate. And I have a job to do, which is to help them explore the experiences that have had such an impact on their lives.

Matt Gilhooly
00:09:25

And that makes sense, I think. You know, I very loosely relate it to some of the conversations that I have on this podcast in which I am holding a space.

I'm not trying to solve anything. I'm just holding a space for a deeply personal story, whether that's about a death or a suicide or like a diagnosis or whatever it is.

And I'm holding this space. And I, through my journey in this podcast, have had to find ways where I don't take that out of the conversation as well. And.

And, you know, because having some empathy, you kind of naturally absorb some of it, and you have to find a way to protect your own self, too. So that's super curious of 35 years of it. If you didn't have a practice, you'd probably be really, really full of a lot of things.

Leah Fisher
00:10:14

I guess it's funny because without my being aware of it, it shows. If I'm on an airplane talking to a stranger in the next seat, they'll ask me if I'm a teacher or a therapist, and it's like, whatever. Yes.

And what made you think of it? So, you know, you think like it, you talk like it. So anyway, and you listen sometimes, mostly.

Matt Gilhooly
00:10:43

So I think that's important. I think. I think it's great.

And thank you for the work that you have done for that many years, for all the people out there that needed it, because I think that's such a big job and such a hard job. And so just thank you before we jump into your story. It's so impactful and really honestly, that's what what helped me what I say.

And people yell at me for saying this, but close the door on grief about my mom. I finally, in my early 30s, found a therapist that was the right fit. Took like 5 or 6 to find the right person that kind of jived with me.

And she said some just a sentence to me that like snapped everything and was like, she's like, you realize that every decision that you've made since your mom died was out of fear as that 8 year old. And I was like, you know, like my whole world like exploded at that moment.

But it was like people like yourself in these roles can say like we said earlier, one sentence that just could have heard it a thousand times before that, but at that moment was said the right way. So again, thank you for your service. So you gave us a little bit of a sneak peek of what your kind of life, shifting year, if you will.

But maybe you can even break it down a little bit more of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to when you decided to make this moment. And then maybe if you can identify like the specific piece that you feel really significantly shifted things from the old Leah to the new Leah.

Leah Fisher
00:12:10

Well, I'd like to flash all the way back to being 22 because I think that's where this was born. So I was a very well behaved, obedient, respecting authority young person, did what was expected and as you can guess, a bit of a late bloomer.

When I graduated from college, I really wanted to join the Peace Corps. This was in the late 60s and the peace Corps was just being birthed and it was a very exciting thing to do.

It was certainly not the expected next step after college.

And so I ended up going to graduate school and forever after regretted having given up this chance to live in other cultures and give back and find ways to give back. So that wish you just like planted.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:12

A seed way back when, you know.

Leah Fisher
00:13:14

It was a squandered opportunity. I didn't quite have the sense of ownership of my own self to feel like I could decide what I really wanted to do next.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:25

Were you just following a path?

Leah Fisher
00:13:27

Oh yeah, okay.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:29

Because I talk about that too. Like, and I think mine is trauma informed, like perfectionist. Like I just did whatever society told me was next.

Like I had to do well and then go to college and then get a good job. You know, like it was like society's checklist for me is what I call it. Were you doing something similar?

Leah Fisher
00:13:45

I was love informed, which is to say that I adored my father in particular, and I did what he thought was a good idea so that you.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:57

Could win his love or keep his love.

Leah Fisher
00:13:59

You know, that was an expectation in the family. Let dad be the top dog. He's a really smart guy. He knows just what to do. And don't you dare have a different opinion. And I was very obedient.

Matt Gilhooly
00:14:13

Makes sense. I, I think we're, you know, that's how we grow up. And we're. I did the same thing. I was like.

But mine was out of abandoned fear of abandonment because I was like, if I, if my dad doesn't love what I just did, then he's also gonna leave because my mom left, you know?

Leah Fisher
00:14:28

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:14:28

So that's why I always ask that question, because I'm like, how do we get on this path where we just follow things when your dream was probably so huge to go into the, and the Peace Corps, and then you're just like, this is the expected route. I should go that way.

Leah Fisher
00:14:43

Yep. Well, a lot of mistakes from when I was younger, I've been able to just lay to rest that one would go away. I was just, I was mad at myself.

It's like you wanted this so much. How was it you were able to talk yourself out of it?

Matt Gilhooly
00:14:59

Could you not do it afterwards? Like, was it that one and only chance? And then it was like, never an opportunity for you?

Leah Fisher
00:15:07

Not until I was 60.

Matt Gilhooly
00:15:10

Okay.

Leah Fisher
00:15:11

Okay. I promise I won't get too far ahead of myself. Okay. I went to graduate school. I ended up becoming a therapist.

There was, you know, it was socially useful. But that bit of following my bliss never got to happen.

And so pretty soon there's dating, falling in love, getting married, a mortgage, two children save for college tuition. And then there was a moment. Both kids had graduated from college. They were both self supporting. I'd been married for 30 years.

It was a nice, sturdy marriage. Blissful marriages aren't as many as people might pretend or wish for. But a good, solid, sturdy marriage, that's a long time. And it is a long time.

And then something happened that brought that dream back to life.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:07

Well, first of all, I mean, 30 years, I, I'm. I appreciate you saying that. A blissful marriage is like probably not the reality for most people. I mean, we're humans, right?

Like you have to exist with another human that for that long. And I'm also imperfect and too imper. You know, same.

Leah Fisher
00:16:25

So we've got to stop talking in that case.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:30

Listen, I thought I wanted to be perfect for so many years. And it just hurt me more than it helped me. So, you know, I think that I finally learned that I. That like an A plus is not always attainable.

And that's okay.

Leah Fisher
00:16:44

Yep.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:45

You know, so.

Leah Fisher
00:16:46

Yep.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:47

You give your marriage like a B plus? Is that what we're saying for those 30 years?

Leah Fisher
00:16:51

I'm not going to grade it. You do what you want.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:55

So what happened to kind of shift you back into that bliss seeking?

Leah Fisher
00:17:02

Well, two things happened. And the first and probably the most important one, my father died. This much revered, super smart father died.

And it dawned on me that if my father could die, I guess I would too. There's a Buddhist teacher who says, we all know we're going to die. We just don't believe it. I started to believe it.

Matt Gilhooly
00:17:32

Really?

Leah Fisher
00:17:33

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:17:33

Because this wasn't the first person that had died in your circle. Right.

Leah Fisher
00:17:37

It was the first daddy who had died.

Matt Gilhooly
00:17:39

Yeah.

Leah Fisher
00:17:41

And it really packed a punch. So what it triggered and what it shifted was, when it's my turn to die, what am I really gonna regret not having done? And boom, there was the dream.

It had been in my back pocket for the better part of 40 years. Like, it was there, but that wasn't where my focus was. Suddenly it slipped out of my pocket and it was right in my face.

Matt Gilhooly
00:18:15

And that's dangerous. It can be dangerous. Right. Because it makes you rethink everything. Does it. Does it go like. Does it make you have regrets? Or does it.

I would imagine it would.

Leah Fisher
00:18:26

That had been happening all along. If I would bump into people talking about the Peace Corps, my gut would clench with.

I would say remorse, but it was also shame, you know, what an idiot you were. And look at the experience they had.

This is sort of random, but I went with my husband back to his college reunion, and we were surrounded by a bunch of his classmates, and they were talking about the Peace Corps. And I oozled up to them and said, you know, I applied. I filled out that application to go to the Peace Corps, but I didn't get in.

And they said, why didn't you get in? And I said I was scared to mail in the application. And they said, well, you know, we guys had a good incentive to hand in ours.

The alternative was going to Vietnam. And it was like, oh, my God. Most all of the people that I envied who'd gone to the Peace Corps had been guys graduating seniors.

And a lot of them did social service exemptions. Peace Corps was one.

Matt Gilhooly
00:19:45

That's smart. It's interesting, though, because then you Also get that. Like, was there jealousy that came with that too?

I know you said shame and those kind of things, but did you have any jealousy?

Leah Fisher
00:19:55

More yearning? It wasn't like, I wish it had been me instead of you. It was like, oh, there it was for the taking. And I didn't take it.

That experience though, of the guys reminding me about getting drafted softened the self blame. It didn't soften the yearning, but it softened the self blame. So my dad dying was the first shift, if that's the right word.

The second one came a couple of years later in the Amazon jungle.

Matt Gilhooly
00:20:31

Oh, were you doing that?

Leah Fisher
00:20:32

I promised to make this interesting.

I went to the Amazon in Ecuador with my husband, with a group of people from an environmental organization who wanted to take North Americans to the jungle, to the lungs of the planet, and help them understand what these indigenous cultures know down to their bones, which is nature is alive and it needs to be respected and almost worshiped and protected. And these tribes that are way, way far out in the rainforest think of themselves as the custodians of the rainforest.

And boy, they're working hard as custodians because petroleum industry is pushing further and further into the jungle.

Matt Gilhooly
00:21:33

Yeah. And it's so foreign for us to like.

I mean, that just seems like you go there, it seems so exotic until you realize the power that I bet that you saw in those people and the.

Leah Fisher
00:21:48

Oh, yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:21:48

Yeah.

Leah Fisher
00:21:50

So that's how I got to the jungle. That's how you got there. That's how I got there. The dramatic shift happened when I participated in an ayahuasca ceremony.

Matt Gilhooly
00:22:04

That's the brave decision just to begin with. Was that something you had interested in, you were interested in or, you know.

Leah Fisher
00:22:11

It was there we had that opportunity. And I am a curious person. It's like, well, I haven't done that before. Sure, I'll do it. It turned out that it was quite an intense experience.

Just at a body level. I've never thrown up as hard for as long as I did on ayahuasca. Many people had visions. My husband had an amazing vision of.

He said the stars of the northern hemisphere were embracing the stars of the southern hemisphere.

Matt Gilhooly
00:22:44

Wow.

Leah Fisher
00:22:45

So that was deep. The young people who were with us had their visions and were down in about an hour and a half.

Fourteen hours later, I was still face down on a banana leaf.

Matt Gilhooly
00:23:01

Wow.

Leah Fisher
00:23:01

Yes. But my experience, while it wasn't a vision, was this. Ayahuasca is also called the vine of death. So here's the second death.

I had the feeling of being cemented to the ground. And yet my mind was alive and active and doing its own thing. I could not move. My body wasn't like paralysis.

It was just so heavy from whatever was in those two plants that mixed together to make ayahuasca. And I found myself wondering if that is what it felt like for my father to have been at the end of his life.

His body clearly wasn't doing anything, but he had always been such a thinker. I wondered if, like, I was in that moment, knowing that this was a ceremony that would end and I'd go back to being me.

My body was completely still, and my mind was busy noticing it, thanks to drugs I had taken in my earlier years. I was a kid of the 60s. I knew I wasn't dying.

Matt Gilhooly
00:24:21

Yeah.

Leah Fisher
00:24:21

But I just wondered, is this what dying would feel like? So the outcome of that was, I had a conversation at that point with my husband. We'd been kind of.

I'd been hinting, and we'd been skirting around this issue of my traveling for a number of years. I don't rush my husband into anything. It doesn't work.

But we sat down and I asked him, I said this had been something I've really wanted to do since I was 22, and would he be willing to take a year and take a sabbatical with me? And his response is, no, I want to keep working. And I said, I can be sort of sassy and flippant, in case you hadn't figured.

Matt Gilhooly
00:25:17

I couldn't get that. No, not at all.

Leah Fisher
00:25:19

And I said, well, how about if you keep working and I go travel the world? And he has a tone of voice that I call the case's closed voice. And he said, I wouldn't like that at all.

Now, in decades younger, I would have tried to convince him it was a great idea or called him whatever. I just sat there. I just sat there. And then he said, but I'd really like to make your dream come true.

Matt Gilhooly
00:25:59

Oh, wow.

Leah Fisher
00:26:00

And I said, well, I can live with that. So believe me, we had many more discussions and lots of planning, and ultimately we agreed that I would travel on my own for a year.

Now, it didn't mean I wouldn't see him for a year. What we arranged is I'd go four months at a time, three times.

I'd come home in between the first and second and the second and third segments, A little bit like being on the quarter system. Okay, no finals. And I would visit my children, visit an aging mom who had dementia, remind my Husband.

He was happily married and then go off for another four months. So that was how it happened. And he came and he visited me wherever I happened to be for two weeks during each of those sections of travel.

Matt Gilhooly
00:26:57

So that was like a reasonable deal.

Leah Fisher
00:27:00

My father dying and the ayahuasca created the shift.

And where it took me to was a year of traveling on my own, really seeing what was out there and what I could do as a retired therapist that could be useful.

Matt Gilhooly
00:27:19

So you did some work in some way?

Leah Fisher
00:27:22

I did work in some way. But what was gorgeous is no appointments, no office, no sitting in a chair, and just being open to opportunities that presented themselves.

Would you like to hear about a couple of those opportunities?

Matt Gilhooly
00:27:38

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Leah Fisher
00:27:39

Okay. Well, there are three that come to mind. One was before I left, a place I had visited in Guatemala in my 20s, had had a huge mudslide.

This was a lake called Lake Atitlan, surrounded by volcanoes, just gorgeous. One of the volcanoes, in a huge rainstorm, had just collapsed and buried an entire village.

Matt Gilhooly
00:28:05

Wow.

Leah Fisher
00:28:05

And the survivors were living in these save the children Red Cross shelters, basically tarps. And I had heard that the children were just traumatized.

So thanks to a psychoanalyst here in San Francisco who had developed workbooks for children after Hurricane Katrina. They were sort of like trauma reduction workbooks that were filled out in conversation with a parent or a teacher.

I asked him if I could take this model, translate it into Spanish for these kids in Guatemala. I didn't tell him I'd have to learn how to speak Spanish before I could do it, but he said yes.

So what I did during my four months there is I learned to speak Spanish. I got help to do this translation. It had included a coloring book where the children would color in drawings of before the disaster.

During the disaster, parents and children being separated, reunited, and then building the community back up again. So that was my project there.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:22

I mean, that's just like a big project in itself. I'm thinking, here you are, you're going on a sabbatical of like travel, you know, like.

But this is like meaningful, like heart filling, soul filling work that you're doing. This is, this is your 22 year old self doing your Peace Corps work, right?

Leah Fisher
00:29:41

It's my 22 year old self Armed with the skills of my 62 year old self, able to do the Peace Corps in a very different way. Different because I was the boss, because it was one year rather than two.

And I really had a skill set that I just wanted to know how useful in the Big world is what I've been doing for 35 years, sitting in a chair. And this was my first discovery that it could be really useful.

Matt Gilhooly
00:30:16

And, I mean, I would imagine that, like, that. Well, first of all, how did you choose where you were going?

Was it based on the fact that there was a mudslide and then you chose to go to Guatemala, or were you just, like, planning?

Leah Fisher
00:30:29

I wasn't planning. I had been to this lake and adored it.

I had been to the lake as a guest of a college classmate who had gone into the Peace Corps, and so I spent a month living with him and his girlfriend. And I loved this place. I loved the people who lived there.

I loved the life that my friend was living on that lake, speaking Spanish and playing with kids and whatever. So it was a blending of who I had become and who I had once been, and. And it was delicious.

Matt Gilhooly
00:31:07

I bet. I. I don't think there's a.

I don't think there's a lot of people that can relate to something that they were so wanting to do for so long, but then had the opportunity to also learn something and do something for so long and then blend them together. It just always feels like, oh, you know, I was eight, and I wish I had done this.

And then you just never do it, or you do it, and it's just like a check mark and not a blending of, like, life experiences with that. I mean, because that. That moment was probably so much richer by doing it in your 60s than had you gone to the Peace Corps and, like, done something.

You know, it just feels like there's so many layers to. To something like that.

Leah Fisher
00:31:53

Well, this was. This was a wonderful thing. I.

I corresponded with another college friend who had gone to the Peace Corps in India, and I told him what I was doing, and he wrote back, and he said, wow, what you are doing is so much more like the Peace Corps than that. What? So much more like what I thought I would do in the Peace Corps than what I actually got to do.

Matt Gilhooly
00:32:18

Yeah. What do. What did they do? Like, someone that went to that space, what would they have done? Would it just be more like service work and not so.

So deeply connected to the community?

Leah Fisher
00:32:30

Well, it might be teaching English, which seems like it's helpful all over the world, since, for the time being, English is an international language.

Some of them were put in communities where they were being asked to offer their expertise to people who might not be using the best farming techniques or whatever, but they were experts in doing it their way. And these 22 year old consultants didn't know what the heck they were doing, which is a horrible feeling.

Matt Gilhooly
00:33:05

Yeah, I think that's what most college graduates feel like when they go into the workforce. They're like, well, I learned all this stuff in this book. Guess what? Life is not like that.

Leah Fisher
00:33:14

Imagine what it's like the first six months you are called a therapist and you sit down with real people who really need something from you.

Matt Gilhooly
00:33:24

I think that's, yeah, that's a much deeper connection that is required.

But I, I mean, I just think of like I went to business school the first time and I just think of these, like my friends that did like accounting or something, and you learn what's in the textbook for accounting and then you get into a real accounting job and you're like, that's not, that's not what we do. Like, that's just like what you think we do. But that's not actually how the real world works.

But yeah, I would imagine being a therapist is much more daunting at first.

Leah Fisher
00:33:54

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:33:55

Does it ever not get daunting or does, does it ever feel comfortable?

Leah Fisher
00:33:58

You know what I think is it takes about seven years to get comfortable in your skin. And I've heard teachers say it's about seven years before you become a really good teacher.

Matt Gilhooly
00:34:10

That makes sense.

Well, I mean, I think that's awesome that you did the, I mean, you said there are multiple things, but the Guatemala thing is just, I think about that 22 year old, had you made that decision to turn in your application, get accepted and go, all the other things that wouldn't have happened in your life because of going to that. So it's like almost, you know, like we could play that game.

Leah Fisher
00:34:33

Yes, I'd love, I'd love to play that game. But they only give you one life.

Matt Gilhooly
00:34:37

I know, but you think about that. But.

And the reason I say that is because the route you did take perhaps made this, this part of the journey that much richer, that much more beautiful or as you said, delicious. Do you think that, do you think that's true?

Leah Fisher
00:34:54

I know it was delicious. I think it was also healing.

You know, it didn't make me tall and blonde in a ballerina, but it made me feel much more kindly toward myself and the path I'd taken in my life.

Matt Gilhooly
00:35:10

How so?

Leah Fisher
00:35:11

If I had been the, if I had 22, had known what I know as a 60 year old, I jolly well would have mailed in that application. Well, yeah, okay.

And the friends I knew who went to the Peace Corps came back with A much more worldly sense, with a much bigger sense of the world, with more courage and more confidence, and I could have used that. So I stayed a late bloomer, maybe longer than I would have liked. But the point is, that shift I got there, I got to where I wanted to be.

And part of what made it exciting at 60 was that I thought it was too late. I thought I had permanently forfeited this opportunity. How many 60 year olds go traveling around the world by themselves?

Matt Gilhooly
00:36:09

How many go to the jungle and do an ayahuasca thing?

Leah Fisher
00:36:14

We got brought there by very caring. We had a guide. Once I got on the plane, I had nothing except a destination to start, you know, Good.

Matt Gilhooly
00:36:27

No, I mean, I think there's something to be said about making those choices though, too, because you very well could have just kept going with, you know, this checklist kind of journey that you were on. Not to say that you didn't enjoy it exactly.

You know, like, you could have just listened to your husband when he had his case closed voice, you know, like, and. Or you could have been sassy instead of being quiet, because I bet that quiet part made him think, wait a second, she, like, really needs this.

Leah Fisher
00:36:58

It certainly gave him space to think.

Matt Gilhooly
00:37:01

Yeah.

Leah Fisher
00:37:01

You know? Yep.

Matt Gilhooly
00:37:02

Instead of like back and forth, you know, I think that. I think that's beautiful that you did that. I love that. What, what other experience you said you had?

Leah Fisher
00:37:10

3, but I do have 3. Well, the next one was in Java. I was in Java just for a few days. This was one of the places where my husband met me. And it was our.

We'd been there for two or three days. It was our last night before we were going to fly to Bali and we were in an earthquake that lasted for 59 seconds.

I know you don't live on the West coast, but 59 seconds is a very long time to have shaking get stronger and stronger and stronger, to not be quite sure what the building you're in is made out of, and to think there's a real good chance you're going to die. Because we'd only been there a couple of days. I'm thinking during these 59 seconds, boy, that's lasting a long time. Boy, that's lasting a long time.

Oh, my God, I think I'm going to die. And where the blank am I? So 6,000 people died. We were quite close to the epicenter. I got an email from my daughter saying, mom, are you okay?

And I said, yes, a lot of people died, but I'm okay. And she said, well, good. I know you were looking for a service project.

Matt Gilhooly
00:38:34

She knew you.

Leah Fisher
00:38:36

Exactly.

So I ended up joining a Red Cross disaster mental health group and putting together another work group book and getting another artist to make a coloring book.

Matt Gilhooly
00:38:49

Right place, right time. I mean, unfortunate time, but exactly, exactly. It's.

I mean, I feel like the universe was like serving this experience to you on like a silver platter because it realized how long you had been yearning for that kind of experience.

Leah Fisher
00:39:08

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:09

Yeah. How was that?

Leah Fisher
00:39:11

Well, when I safely got home to San Francisco, I thought, oh, here I am on the San Andreas fault. Safe, safe at last.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:20

Because it was familiar, right? Like you had an earthquake there. At least, you know, like where you are, where the F you are.

Leah Fisher
00:39:27

Right, exactly.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:29

Yeah. No, that's. I mean, it's, it's just, I don't know, I'm still like.

And maybe I'm in my 40s now, so maybe in my 60s, I'm going to choose to do something that I chose not to do in my 20s because of your story.

Leah Fisher
00:39:41

That would be wonderful.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:42

Or maybe I'll do it in my 40s.

Leah Fisher
00:39:44

How about right now?

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:46

Exactly. Oh, bye.

Leah Fisher
00:39:47

What's in your back pocket? So. Well, yes, in telling the story in my book, I have several goals. And I didn't start out with those goals. They kind of came out of the writing.

And one is that being over 50 or 60 doesn't mean the game is over. It means you need to use your imagination to have a little bit of audacity or a lot and a lot.

Matt Gilhooly
00:40:21

You find it's harder to be audacious as you get older or easier. Easier because you don't care.

Leah Fisher
00:40:28

Way easier. I did something in my 50s that my daughter thought was just ridiculous. Some bag I was carrying to put post its in so that I didn't forget things.

And she said, you can't do that. And I said, hey, I'm 60, I can do whatever I please. So no, I think it's a lot easier in an environment of safety if you're in a war zone. No way.

You know, but under happy and fortunate circumstances, you bet.

Matt Gilhooly
00:41:02

Thinking before we go into your book, be thinking back to when your father died and you were talking about like, how you realize, like, oh, like this could happen to me too, like I could die. Did he. Did you feel or did you know if he had regrets when he died?

Did he have things that he just didn't achieve or, or do because life that like kind of signaled that maybe you should start to do those things.

Leah Fisher
00:41:27

He wasn't A big talker. But I know him well enough that I think he was a little sorry he hadn't won a Nobel Prize.

Matt Gilhooly
00:41:38

Small goal.

Leah Fisher
00:41:40

So yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:41:43

What did he do?

Leah Fisher
00:41:45

He was a biochemist and a ophthalmologist and an eye surgeon.

Matt Gilhooly
00:41:50

That makes more sense.

Leah Fisher
00:41:51

And he did some very impressive things. Didn't get a Nobel Prize. And one of the real gems of that time traveling.

There was a part of me that thought, hey, if you're a good daughter, you go get a Nobel Prize and then you can go out and play.

I discovered there's so many small ways as a traveler that you can contribute that they don't have to be Nobel Prize worthy, that you can be helpful in small ways and in very non professional settings. So I wanted to tell you the third situation where I got to use what I had learned as a therapist. So I'm in Bali on my own, snorkeling in the ocean.

There is a woman, an English speaking woman who's out there in the water too.

And everyone had been curious about her because a young Balinese man, this woman was probably in her 50s, this very young, very gorgeous Balinese man would drive his motorcycle up to her cottage each evening. And it was like, hey, what's going on? So we're standing waist deep in this water, trying not to step on coral, and she tells me her story.

And her story was of she had been involved romantically with this young man and she discovered that he had had a baby with a young Balinese woman. And she was devastated and she was furious and she really didn't know what to do with her wrath.

And I thought about a couple I had known in college and I asked if I could tell her a story. And the story was of a minister and his wife and he had an affair and the woman got pregnant and he had to come and inform his wife.

These were two of the most godlike people I have ever met. And she said, if that's your child, then they are family.

And to this day, the mother and her child are part of Thanksgivings and Christmas and they have half brothers and sisters. And that child has never felt anything except loved and included.

So I tell this story and her eyes get big and she says, boy, I'd like to do something like that. And I said, well, you're still really angry. You can't hurry these things. And she said, no, I've been angry a really long time.

Did I tell you they named the baby after me? The baby has my name.

Matt Gilhooly
00:44:47

Oh my.

Leah Fisher
00:44:48

She said, this is a remarkable Young man, he has enough room in his heart to love many people. Then she went off towards her coral reef and I went off toward mine. Never know what she did with that story. And it's not my business.

You know, a therapist, you interact, you share what you have and what comes of it. Not your business. So anyway, that was, I love that image that I was able to be useful with therapy skills. In the sea. In the sea.

Matt Gilhooly
00:45:24

In a beautiful spot. Yeah. No, I think it also just tells me the power of story. Whether she did the exact same thing, whether it made her think differently.

I mean, it obviously affected her in some way of hearing that story. And the power that you have to be able to recall that story or to bring that story, to connect those particular things is so special.

But I mean, I love that.

Leah Fisher
00:45:47

And you've made story what you do for your listeners and for your guests.

Matt Gilhooly
00:45:53

Yeah, I think it's important.

And I think of the younger version of myself and I think of when I have these conversations, what did he need to hear because he needed so much that he didn't get?

Because my dad was in his mid-30s, he was suddenly as an only parent of, you know, a child he was going to see every holiday, you know, kind of thing. And he wasn't prepared. He didn't know how to grieve.

His mom didn't know how to grieve because she, you know, she was a child of the 30s and you know, that just isn't what she did. You know, they didn't learn that stuff. And I think about that 8 year old or 10 year old version of me or the 15 year old version of me.

Had I heard a conversation about a 40 year old guy who had his mom died when he was a kid and these are all the things that he was able to accomplish. Like what if I had heard that as a younger kid, Would I have felt more confident in certain things? Would I have taken more risks?

Would I have dropped the fear of abandonment? What, you know, like all those things.

And so when I have these conversations, yes, it's about like talking about real things and real emotions and that. And that's why like I ask you, like, did you feel jealous, you know, of those moments or did, you know, whatever these things are?

Because I think I did like I would go to people's houses and I see their, their mom and their dad interacting. My parents were divorced, so first of all I had that, but then I didn't have a mom.

So I would be watching these people interact with their mom and Be like jealous, you know. And so having these emotions is important and having these conversations is important and I love that you're able to do it.

Leah Fisher
00:47:35

Well, I'll tell you what you're bringing to mind for me is that for all of us, whether we're traumatized in specific ways or not, we still take our three year olds inside us.

And in certain circumstances, scary times, very Sad times, that 3 year old or 8 year old or whatever pops up, whereas most of the time it's just kind of quiet. My fears of, well, they were fears of being alone and of alone being a dangerous situation. So for me, traveling alone and making it work was really.

It's like having a conversation with that three year old saying the monster in the closet that you've been afraid of all that time isn't all that scary.

Matt Gilhooly
00:48:29

You know, that's funny that you say it in that way is because that's how I feel about like things that I worry about in my head. They're so scary. And then as soon as I say them out loud, I'm like, what? That's like nothing. Like. Or I write it down and I'm like, why was I.

This sounds like nothing. So it's kind of in the same way of like where people bottle things up and they don't let it out.

And as soon as they let it out it's like, oh, and it's really not that bad. I can do something with this and move forward with it. So yes, I love that connection. What made you start writing your book though?

Like, why write a book?

Leah Fisher
00:49:06

I wrote a book because it was the second most exciting thing I had done in my life. Maybe three. Going to summer camp, leaving my parents for the very first time and going away to where kids all got to sleep in a cabin together.

And you learn how to swim and paddle a canoe and then you go off for five days on a camping trip. That was beautiful. Having babies was fabulous. And this trip was up there as part of the top three most exciting. Thanks.

Matt Gilhooly
00:49:43

Well, it's because you were connecting your 22 year old self too with the rest of your life. I love that.

Leah Fisher
00:49:49

Yep.

I also had the good fortune that a woman who my husband knew, who was a poet, when she heard about the trip, she said, take a journal and journal about it and pay attention to details, write down details. So in a way, I came home with material for a book, but it was another 15 years before I put it between covers.

Matt Gilhooly
00:50:17

Yeah. What was that journey like? Was it overwhelming? Was it fun? Was it all the Things.

Leah Fisher
00:50:24

What I needed in order to finish it was for my husband and me to grow more.

The book needed a really happy ending, and we kept sliding back into our old habit of him working too much and my being lonely and bigger and whatever, which wasn't a very good ending to the book. So over. I spent two years talking weekly with a therapist who was also devoted Buddhist.

And I went to her because more about the Buddhism than about the therapy. And what I think I learned in those two years is that a good enough marriage is a good marriage.

So I kind of made my piece that I had chosen not just well enough, but I'd chosen well.

And, you know, when you start treating your partner like you chose them wisely, it's amazing how much more they want to show up for dinner, and then you want to treat them even more nicely because they showed up for dinner. So that. That spiral through.

Matt Gilhooly
00:51:37

That's. That's a powerful thought. That's really hard to, like, digest in one little.

You know, how we were talking about, like, the weirdest little pieces of people's stories. Stick with you. That one right there, like, shine in my face. I think that's true of, like, friendships, too.

I think that's true of, like, any kind of relationship as well. Would you agree?

Leah Fisher
00:51:58

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:51:58

That you choose, like, I think for many of us, and I don't know why, but we absorb, like, what a marriage should be or what a friendship should be, and then we, like, have these standards that are never met, and then we're mad about it, and then all, you know, then you spiral in that way. But, yeah, I love that. That nugget that you just dropped on us for us to think about.

Leah Fisher
00:52:23

But what was the key that opened the door was really coming to believe that a good enough marriage is a good marriage. Because what it did is it erased my sense of what an idiot I was. That's the same as the not sending in that application to the Peace Corps.

What an idiot I was to choose this person. Well, even if you never say it out loud, your tone of voice communicates it. And, you know, the part that took it one step further was actually Covid.

Matt Gilhooly
00:52:57

Because you were forced to be together so much.

Leah Fisher
00:53:00

Exactly. And I kept it a secret for a long time because how can you say good things came out of pandemic that slaughtered millions of people?

But our governor, Gavin Newsom, required people to work from home. And my husband had just finished telling me, in that case, his closed voice, that there was no way he could do psychoanalysis remotely.

And no Way Jose. Two days later, he had to. Well, first of all, it worked out fine professionally. There are patients who still prefer to have treatment by zoom.

But he discovered that he lived in a beautiful home, and he had a really nice wife, and she cooked very good dinners, and we have dinner together every night. And in my book, when I'm acknowledging. Thank you to. I have a thank you to Governor.

Matt Gilhooly
00:54:00

Gavin Newsom for his lockdown.

Leah Fisher
00:54:05

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:54:06

Which meanwhile, in Florida, we were locked down for, like, eight minutes, I think, maybe.

Leah Fisher
00:54:11

Yep.

Matt Gilhooly
00:54:14

Yeah. No, I, I mean, I think that's important. I think that's a good message for people to understand, too.

And I mean, you have to come to it when you're ready to come to it. Had you had that conversation maybe 10 years earlier, it might not have resonated in the same way. So, I mean, I think our experiences fill that.

Leah Fisher
00:54:31

You're really wise in saying that.

And I think one of the things that my story does is it lets people who are younger know that there's no statute of limitation on growing and on growing as partners. And I learned it by doing it. But it feels very good to share that news with younger people.

Matt Gilhooly
00:54:55

Well, and I think it's, I think another part of your story is the sabbatical that you chose to take when people maybe wouldn't do it in the way that you did it, or like, maybe traditionally you didn't see people do that. They retired and they went on a retiring trip. You know, like it's a retirement trip of some sort, but not in the way that you did it.

You did it in a service. You did it in a service one to yourself and what you needed, but you did an in service of all the people that you encountered in that space.

And I think that is a really nice message.

I think we probably, like what you thought about when your father passed is like, oh, wait, like, I need to do some stuff before this is over kind of thing.

Leah Fisher
00:55:38

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:55:38

And we kind of look at like, oh, well, we're old now. We can't do anything. It's not true. It's just, you know, kind of a. I don't know how to say that without sounding insulting.

Leah Fisher
00:55:48

Well, it's pretty daring for a very obedient young person, don't you think?

Matt Gilhooly
00:55:54

I guess so. Yes. I'm very sharing. No, I, I, I, I love your story. I think it's, I think it's empowering.

I think it's empowering for anyone at any age because they're, I mean, I think every human probably has some moment that they've placed in their back pocket of like, why didn't I do that? You know, why? Or why did I do that? I think that might happen too, you know, and I think we can. We can make amends with ourselves in a way.

I don't know if we want to call it amends, but I think we could in the way that you did. You know, I think that's so wonderful. I'm wondering if. If Leah, this version of you could go back to the Leah right after your father died.

Is there anything that this version of you would want to tell her because you hadn't gone on all those adventures?

Leah Fisher
00:56:45

Frankly, if you don't mind, I'd like to take her all the way back to that 22 year old. I could do that because that's the conversation that I've thought of lots of times.

Matt Gilhooly
00:56:57

Yeah. What would you tell her?

Leah Fisher
00:56:58

You do not have to be so good. You can put down your history book and just look around. History is actually happening right now.

There are more, but I'm not sure it's appropriate to share them.

Matt Gilhooly
00:57:15

Would you tell her to turn in that application?

Leah Fisher
00:57:18

Oh, yes.

Matt Gilhooly
00:57:19

Would you?

Leah Fisher
00:57:20

And yes. And you know what I tell her? You are going to be scared beyond any kind of terror you've ever felt. And it's going to be all right.

It's just a feeling.

Matt Gilhooly
00:57:33

You know what? Every, almost every person that I ask a very similar question to, they tell that younger person that it's going to be okay.

And so it's really interesting that even though yours is like a different type of story that maybe I think of differently because it's not similar to my own experience, same thing. We would tell this younger version of ourselves that like all the. That we were worried about. It's gonna be okay, you know, like, we're gonna be okay.

Yes, we're gonna make it through. Because that's what the human, human spirit does. Like you, you make it through. Hopefully in most cases. In a lot of cases.

Leah Fisher
00:58:12

Right?

Matt Gilhooly
00:58:13

Yes. First, can you tell us the name of your book?

Leah Fisher
00:58:17

Yes. The book is called My Marriage A Memoir of Solo Travel and Lasting Love.

Matt Gilhooly
00:58:27

Excellent. And where can they get this book? Everywhere that books are sold.

Leah Fisher
00:58:31

Yes. And it's on order now. And on January 7th, it's going to be on the shelves and available everywhere books are sold.

Matt Gilhooly
00:58:44

Awesome. Well, by the time this comes out, this is going to come out in early January.

So as you're listening to this, make sure you check the links in the show notes so that you can access that. Also, if People want to get in your circle or connect with you or tell you their story or whatever. Is that something you're into?

And how could they do that?

Leah Fisher
00:59:01

Absolutely. Well, let me back up a moment. There are several books called Marriage Sabbatical by several authors. So you need to sort through the others.

If you want mine, we will give you the link. There you go. And my website is mymarriagesabbatical.com there are photos from my trip, stories from the trip, and an opportunity.

Actually there's a whole section on negotiating important issues with your partner.

Matt Gilhooly
00:59:31

Oh, that's awesome. That's helpful.

Leah Fisher
00:59:33

Yep. So yes, I would love to hear from your viewers.

Matt Gilhooly
00:59:38

Are there contact form and stuff on there that they can reach out to you?

Leah Fisher
00:59:41

All the things we need are on there. Yes. And I'd love to hear from people.

Matt Gilhooly
00:59:47

Well, I would like to thank you for sharing your story in this way and answering my weird questions or whatever came up. I really appreciate you wanting to just be a part of this healing journey for me of the Life Shift podcast.

Leah Fisher
01:00:00

Thank you so much.

Matt Gilhooly
01:00:02

And if you are listening, thank you for listening. I love it if you stick around. If you like the show ratings reviews on Apple podcasts. That's so helpful. But otherwise I'm going to say goodbye.

I'm going to say goodbye to Leah and I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Leah.

Leah Fisher
01:00:22

Foreign.

Matt Gilhooly
01:00:29

For more information please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.