The Art of Kindness in the Face of Tragedy | Robert Peterpaul

00:00
I remember the moment that really started to shift things was waking up that morning to go to school. And now we were very wild and rambunctious if you didn't already get that vibe. And so when my brother said, my stomach hurts, I don't feel well, I don't feel well, I immediately thought he was faking it. I thought he was just trying to get out of class because listen, I've hid in the basement, I've hid in closets, I've hid under the tables to not go to school. That was us. And then he kept up with it.

00:29
And I still was kind of like, huh, and I think my parents too at first maybe thought that. And then they finally relented and said, okay, we'll take you to the doctor. And he was just in so much pain. And so I went off to school, kind of probably forgot about it. I was like maybe jealous he was staying home to be honest. And then when I came out of school, my parents weren't there to pick me up. Today's guest is Robert Peter Paul. He's a fellow podcaster and a Broadway enthusiast, but his story goes much deeper than that.

00:59
In this episode, we explore Robert's personal experiences with loss and how he's channeled his grief into work as a podcaster and an actor. Robert's podcast, The Art of Kindness, delves into what it means to be kind in a world that often feels unkind. He speaks with a wide range of guests from Broadway stars to behind the scenes creatives, all about their experiences with kindness and how it's influenced their lives and careers. We also discuss the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in our interactions with others.

01:27
Robert's journey has taught him the power of opening up and sharing our struggles with others, even when it feels uncomfortable or scary. By doing so, we create space for connection and empathy, and we can begin to heal and move forward. I'd like to give a big thank you to Mickey, Tracy, and Emily for sponsoring two episodes of the show each month. Their support through Patreon allows me to try new software, to upgrade hardware, and continue bringing these important stories to the public. So thank you.

01:55
Information about the Patreon can be found in the show notes. And without further ado, here's an inspiring conversation about the art of kindness and the power of vulnerability. Here's my friend, Robert Peterpaul. I'm Maciel Houli, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:24
Hello my friends, welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. We are back and we are with someone that I've been so excited to talk to for months now. I'm not even sure how long it's been, but I started following Robert. Hey Robert. Hello everyone. I started following Robert on Twitter and he's a fellow podcaster. He's in the space that I love to go to every year for my birthday in New York, in the Broadway space. And so your podcast was like, got to listen, got to hear what's happening.

02:53
Oh, thank you so much for listening. And I'm so glad we connected on Twitter. And we have had this little relationship form of DMing each other and liking each other's stuff. And I'm not on Twitter as often anymore, but I do love seeing you're such a bright spot on there. So thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. I appreciate it. It's interesting because, you know, when I listen to your podcast, you're just like so full of energy and kindness. And obviously your show is called The Art of Kindness.

03:20
and you speak to people about what kindness means and you speak to entertainers, right? It's not just Broadway people, right? Mostly, yeah, it's certainly shifted to being more Broadway people. Since I signed with the Broadway Podcast Network, I kind of have leaned into that. But we have TV film people, behind the scenes people, actors, costume designers. We get a great kind of breadth of creative. So it's been really fun. I mean, anyone that's listening to this,

03:48
pause this, go to your podcast app, and just download a couple episodes of the Art of Kindness. Because seriously, even if you don't even care about who is on, the energy and what you put out there, Robert, is just so infectious, and I wish more people were like this. And to be honest, here's what happened. I was like, I wonder if when we get on to record.

04:14
Is he gonna come on like, you know, like just like like a bump on the log? Are you always this happy and energetic? Was I a bump when I came on because I was I was nervous because my internet was being weird and my setup was being weird. And I was so excited to talk to you too. So I'm glad I kept up the the energy. But I do feel like I try and live by that mantra of every room you walk into trying to spread a little sunshine and brighten it up a little bit. And I don't know if I'm always successful at that. I might be too much sometimes. But

04:44
I try and treat everybody with kindness and joy because I'm always excited to meet new people and talk to people. So, and thank you for your kind words about the podcast. I don't want to miss the opportunity to say that. I really appreciate it. Oh, well, no problem. And you know what? We're both connected now because the same person wrote really, really kind words out of the blue about both of our podcasts. And I just want to read a line from what he wrote about yours that you...

05:12
are like a popcorn machine, always bristling with motion and offering his listeners butter on their podcasts. I need to make that my bio from this point on because I don't think anyone has ever said, I mean, people have said kind things, luckily to me, but no one's ever said something I've resonated with more. First of all, love popcorn, eat it all the time, way too much, always poppin'. I make dad jokes, it's poppin' in here, I love to pop. I feel like I'm poppin' left and right, so that was just such a kind.

05:40
sentiment and well deserved that he wrote about you as well. So what a surprise. What a lovely guy. Thank you, Frank. Yeah, right? I mean, it's so kind. And sometimes podcasting can be pretty isolating in a way, because we do it all. Most of us do these remotely in a way that.

06:00
you know, we get to have these wonderful conversations, but most of the work on a podcast, as you know, and maybe the listeners don't know, is that most of the work is behind the scenes, just like putting it together and distributing it and promoting it and all these other components that come along to it. And so when someone out of the blue writes something really nice, it's really heartwarming and kind of sets you on fire again. Yeah, totally. And I just think time is such a...

06:26
precious gift. So the fact that he took the time to not only listen to one of our podcasts or even half of one of my podcast episodes, but listen to multiple and then wrote about it is so touching. I don't think I could even really wrap my mind around it fully, but I'm very grateful. No, I agree. I was out on a walk and I saw it randomly on Twitter. He didn't even tag me and I just saw my face and I was like, why is my face here? And read it and it was so nice. And so I'm going to share the link to yours because I think other people should read it as well.

06:56
Aw, thank you. And share yours too if you haven't already, because you were so deserving of that. And your show, like I keep telling you before we were recording, is just so important to what you're doing. It's relatable, it's raw, and I want to thank you for it, because I love listening to it, and I'm sure your listeners love it as well. I sure hope so. And, you know, before we started recording, I told you that really, truly, my goal is that each episode finds someone that needed to hear it.

07:25
and feels less alone in their circumstance. And it sounds really small, but at the same time really big, because I think most people can relate to a time in their life where they just felt like they were the only ones going through that circumstance. You know, and if at that moment, I'm thinking back to myself selfishly as a kid, if back at that moment I had heard other people that had gone through something similar and were like doing well.

07:53
or had reflected on it and had things that were positive that came from such a dark moment or such a hard part of their life, I think my experience would be a lot different. And so, you know, it's just, it's so heartwarming and fulfilling to just have conversations like this. You know, even what you're gonna share today is unexpected. Yeah, you know, I think if I had been a little kid curled up in my bunk bed with headphones in, able to listen.

08:23
to a story that resonated with me, the power of audio, there's just something about it, I think, where you put your headphones in, you can close your eyes, you might not know what the person looks like, you can imagine where they are, it's so personal. So I agree, and I feel the same way. If one person listens to one of my episodes and feels something or feels joy or relates to it, I've done my job. It's like that Lady Gaga quote that went viral, I always giggle about it, because they have the compilation of her saying it in a million interviews, she's like,

08:53
You could have 99 people in a room, but if one person believes in you, you know, I quote that way too much, but it's so true because one person and touching one person is important. And it's all these acts of kindness adding together that I think make a big change. So I'm already rambling, you know, give me the hook, but. You're good. The Art of Kindness podcast, and then we'll get into your story, but I wanna say something specifically about yours is because my show,

09:21
I would say that I speak to quote unquote everyday people, right? And you do too, but some of these people are names. Like they are quote unquote celebrities, right? And people in our society often think of them as maybe not as human as the rest of us. And what you do with your guests is really humanize these individuals that maybe others have on pedestals.

09:50
because of awards, because of accolades, or whatever has come down their way. And so I think that's what's so beautiful about it, because some of the people that I've listened to on your episodes, I'm like, I love that person. I love to listen to their music. I love to see the shows that they've been, I've seen them in all their shows, whatever that may be. And then I'm like, oh, they're also just like totally human. Exactly, thank you. Yeah, I think they're everyday people with extraordinary jobs. And...

10:19
So once you, you know, a person's a person, once you start talking to them, you realize, you could see them almost overthinking and thinking to themselves, am I sharing enough about kindness? Do I know what I'm talking about? Because they almost don't realize that the everyday things they're saying are the things that are relatable to people. And just hearing somebody like you said that you hold on a pedestal say, I experienced imposter syndrome too. I was nervous walking into my first rehearsal. I was nervous in this point in my life. It's comforting, you know?

10:48
And then from that, sometimes advice comes out. And so, yeah, it's an interesting way to get people to think about kindness, I think. Because they might tune in for the person, but hopefully they'll stick around for just the positivity and the joy. The one that stands out for me is Stephanie J. Block. I just felt like... I know you were going to say that. I don't know why. But I saw it in your eyes that you were talking about her when you said, I've seen every show she's been in. Sorry, continue. She's great. And I don't even know if I've seen her in every show, but I just feel like...

11:18
That one really stood out to me is like, you're a mom, you're a human, you deal with the things that everyone else does. And so I think I love what you're doing and I love that what you're about to share and your story has brought you to this place that has really allowed you to help others directly or indirectly from your own personal experience.

11:46
Thank you. I almost said I'm trying, but one thing I'm learning, and I think someone actually told me on my show, and I'm sure you learn a lot from your guests, is don't say you're trying. You're doing. You're just doing it. There is no trying. So one thing, I don't even remember what I was going to say now, but one thing that I'm doing, I guess, is with Stephanie J. Block, and you did something similar. She came on and I asked how she was because that's a normal human greeting. And she came from where she was. She said,

12:12
I'm okay. You know, I'm on the road. I'm in a hotel room with my daughter and my husband. We're making it work. And when I asked you, you said, I'm pretty good. And I'm someone who comes from a place probably which will unpack because of what I've been through of just putting on a smile and saying, I'm good. It's good. Everything's good. And I think it's really important to be authentic and meet people where they are. So that was something I noticed you did that I think is very valuable. I think it's important. And I think if more people do it...

12:41
the people on the receiving end of that are more comfortable responding to it. I think we are conditioned to hear, good, how about you? And then when someone says, oh, not so great, we kind of freeze up and we don't know what to say because we're like, I didn't want to go any further than just asking how are you? I don't want to have this whole unpacking of what you're going through.

13:06
I know, it might be an improv thing in me, but I've also recently been playing around with, I love listening to people and hearing their stories, but listening for the thing that's weird or out of the ordinary or pops out when someone talks to you. If someone says, I'm not doing too well, that's a little bit out of the ordinary for someone to say. So if you follow that, a lot of the times you can lead to having a much deeper conversation. And I think it's, I mean, I'm someone who always leans into the weird and the, you know.

13:34
extraordinary or unordinary. I don't even know if that's a word, but yeah, I do think it is important. Well, keep being you and let's talk about how we got to where we are, right? Or how you got to where you are. And so I think it's helpful to go way back in your particular story. I think your story is going to resonate in ways that may be unexpected to some of the listeners. So I'd love for you to kind of paint the picture of what your life was like. Kind of...

14:00
this ordinary life or whatever it was, whatever your ordinary circumstance was, leading up to this pivotal moment that we're gonna talk about today. Hmm. This is a gift, first of all, I wanna say. Just, we don't reflect enough and think about our stories. So knowing I was coming on here was really interesting. And I already am filled with a lot of emotion just thinking about it. But where do I start? You know, I was born and raised in New Jersey to...

14:26
a lovely family that's filled with just as much or more energy as me. So I had a sister, a brother, and then eventually a younger brother was born that came into the fold when I was growing up. So it was fun to have a baby around. But my household was always filled with music, jokes, laughing, running around. I would build little amusement park rides down the hallway with my dad's desk, rolly chair and set up music and flashes. My dad set up old

14:55
curtains in the basement so I could put on my own shows, which were mostly just me. I loved to play Broadway soundtracks and then open the curtain as if the show was beginning. I thought that was like such an epic thing to do. So it was a very creative, fun household to be in. And whether my family liked it or not, I would sit them down on the couch and tell them I'm doing a magic show and I would make fake tickets. And everybody was really on board for that and very supportive from an early age. And I think...

15:21
with what eventually happened to our family, with the major loss we did experience, which if we didn't have that foundation of love and sense of play and fun, I don't know how we would have gotten through it all. Would you say that your upbringing was unusual compared to people around you? Like the family dynamic? I don't know, like what time period. Like for me, I've never really...

15:50
My family life has always been a fractured family, so that's normal for me. So did you find that the people around you and the families around you and the friends that you had had very similar families, or did you feel like yours was unique in a way? You know, I think of fractured family for myself as, this is just something weird that's popping to my head, but looking through a window as the sun is rising and it's so bright and beautiful, but the window's cracked.

16:15
So I think I'm always someone who looks through the cracks and focuses on the sunshine, but probably since I was born, my family was fractured and there are certain things that are not my story to share, but growing up, I mean, and still affect me to this day with people in my family. And so there was always a lot of turmoil, always a lot of drama and fighting and things that I personally don't think are for me to share, but...

16:44
That was there as well, in addition to the fun. I think there were a lot of highs and a lot of lows. You know, a roller coaster ride. But there was always love at the bottom of it. That was never anything I questioned. Yeah, and I don't think what you're saying here is, I don't think it's uncommon. I think, especially the time period growing, the time period it was, I think it was a lot more common that way. People weren't talking about it. And we're also taught in society to focus.

17:13
on the good things too. And so when we look back, and that's really where it stems from, is that some people come on the show and they're like, I had the most perfect of childhoods. And I'm like, did you? Or is that the picture that we've painted? And I think it's important to understand that that ups, downs, and in-betweens are probably there for most people. But the joy sounds like it was something that is very palpable for you when you think back to it. And the things that...

17:43
the connections you had. Yeah, and I wonder if you feel the same. I think the setting was a big part of it as it always is in life and in art. We were in such a cookie cutter, white picket fence, idyllic town. And so trying to keep up with that and pretend everything was okay, I'm sure was a huge part of me learning to do that just in life. So I don't know if your setting was similar, but feeling like you would go into the house and it was just a different world because no one knew exactly what was going on the inside.

18:13
Although, eventually, there were some things that got out there, and I think people are very in the know now, but just not publicly, so I don't think that's for me to talk about. Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but do you think that subconsciously you gravitated towards acting and performing because of that? Ooh, this is turning into a therapy session, and I like it because it's free. No, I... Yeah, I think you're...

18:42
Spot on, I think when people would fight in my family, I'm the oldest child first of all, so I think I took on the responsibility of doing this in my own weird way. But whenever people would fight, and to this day, when I go and I'm with my family and there's some kind of drama that happens, and there always is, I'm sorry to say, that's just, I think, family for the most part. I throw on a blanket, I put a pillow on my butt, I put the blanket over and I pretend I have a huge butt and I'm running around dancing. I'll do something weird to try and change the energy.

19:12
and just make people laugh. So I think that's probably why I love performing, in addition to the way we can escape into somebody else's life. Well, I think there might be a tie to that as well. I think for my circumstance, when my mom died, I felt the responsibility to make sure that everyone else was, I was eight, felt the responsibility that everyone else was okay and knew that I was okay. So it was very much performative.

19:40
which probably led me to want to do shows in high school and things like that, to escape, to be someone else for just a little bit, because it's really, it was really exhausting being myself sometimes, because I felt like I was trying to solve everyone else's problems when I know I had way more to solve myself. But, you know, so it's interesting to think back to that and how, you know, once we, I love the analogy of this,

20:10
sunrise through a cracked window and trying to focus on the good things, but sometimes that can be really distracting as well. Yeah. And there's a, you know, I'm not informed enough to talk about it, so I don't know why I am, but there is an ancient, I believe, Japanese form of pottery, I think it is, where, you know, it's a very beautiful piece of art, whatever the pot, pottery looks like pot, it's more valuable when it becomes cracked. And I forget what it's called. Maybe someone can...

20:39
fact check me on that, but I think that's a beautiful symbol for life. Because the messier we are, the more complex we are, the more beautiful we are. That's just life. And whether you share it or not, that's up to you, but... I agree, and it aligns with kind of what I say to a lot of guests, is that our trauma and the things we've experienced and the ups and the downs and all that make us more interesting, make us, you know, a more...

21:08
I don't wanna say fully formed, but you know, there's more facets to us and more interesting. So before we go way down that rabbit hole and like just dissect all the little pieces, why don't you take us a little bit further into kind of what really changed that seemingly normal family existence? Sure. So I was 10 years old, I believe, and in my...

21:34
bedroom at home, I shared a bedroom with my younger brother, Thomas, who was 15 months younger than me. We were Irish twins, 15 months apart, I believe. And I had the top bunk, he had the bottom bunk. That was also a really fun dynamic because we would pass messages to each other at night and just whisper to each other through the cracks and tell stories from the bottom and the top all the way until we would fall asleep or run into my sister's bedroom and prank her. But I remember the moment that really started to shift things was...

22:04
waking up that morning to go to school. And now we were very wild and rambunctious if you didn't already get that vibe. And so when my brother said, my stomach hurts, I don't feel well, I don't feel well. I immediately thought he was faking it. I thought he was just trying to get out of class because listen, I've hid in the basement, I've hid in closets, I've hid under the tables to not go to school. That was us. And then he kept up with it. And I still was kind of like, huh. I think my parents too at first maybe thought that. And then...

22:33
they finally relented and said, okay, we'll take you to the doctor. And he was just in so much pain. And so I went off to school, kind of probably forgot about it. I was like maybe jealous he was staying home to be honest. And then when I came out of school, my parents weren't there to pick me up or my sister. And we were both in the same school complex. She was in a much younger grade, but we were kind of waiting on the sidewalk.

23:01
And then one of our neighbors came, which was very unusual because it was a neighbor that we weren't necessarily as close with because they didn't have kids, it was just out of the blue. So we kind of got in the car and we trusted them enough and went to their house and then we found out, your parents are at the hospital with your brother. We're kind of like, ah, that's weird. And we were really nervous. And that's kind of the beginning of it all. Eventually, I can't remember how quickly we found out but we did find out.

23:31
that the stomach pain was signifying something else. And he was actually diagnosed with leukemia, ALL leukemia, which is a form of childhood cancer. You know, I remember talking to him in the hospital and he was excited because he said, he didn't really know what was going on, but he said our grandparents were gonna buy him like the latest Game Boy or whatever it was. And so he was kind of focused on that. Because he was a kid. Because he's a kid, which is what he should have kind of been able to.

23:59
be for the rest of his journey, but unfortunately that wasn't the case. And I kind of just remember from then on, it's a bit of a whirlwind, like a revolving door of just people coming in to watch us, him going off to the hospital, and then eventually you settle and you find this weird new life where you're talking about hospital terms when you're seeing things that you would never expect to see with your brother. Very traumatic things. And it became about, I think like a two and a half, two-year journey of him.

24:29
being sick and there were so many ups and downs. I mean, there were moments when we thought he was fine. We had a bone drive for him and we thought that was kind of the key. And then, you know, ultimately in the end, he did pass away on 9-11 at 9-11 PM. He was nine when he was diagnosed and then he was 11 when he passed away. So that's just a weird numbers thing that I always share. That set forth my family into starting, you know, a foundation in his honor and things like that, but.

24:58
When I was thinking about it today, this morning on my walk, I was thinking how it wasn't just the loss of my brother, but it was kind of the loss of my brother as I knew him, and then the loss of my brother as a person, and then the loss of my family as I knew it. And the loss of your childhood. My childhood, yeah, in a lot of ways. Because as the oldest, I did take on a lot. I became my younger brother's dad in a lot of ways. I would change his diapers.

25:26
I would get everybody up for school. I mean, we had a lovely family and support system that would come in and sleep over at the house and watch us and make us dinner. But I was kind of the constant person. So that informed my life certainly and how I acted and kind of taking on other people's issues and needs. But yeah, that was like the biggest life shift that I've ever experienced. It's interesting that you brought us back to...

25:54
Well, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you. Sometimes I think I say things and then I don't. No, thank you. I appreciate it. It was interesting to me that you brought me back to that moment at the school. Because that, in my mind, is kind of like the moment in which when things were never going to be the same again. Your normalcy ended when your parents weren't there to pick you up. That normal, everyday kind of thing.

26:23
And what's really interesting is I have a parallel to that in my own experience in which I was at like a summer camp or something, because I was visiting my dad. He lived in another state and his boss's wife picked me up, which like I knew her, you know? And so that was like, so I can relate to what that must have felt like, like, what are you doing here? And then why are you so...

26:50
and not really telling me anything kind of thing. Did you have that experience as well? Oh, for sure. It's unsettling. I mean, the only thing I think maybe most people in our country can relate to is if you were a child or younger during 9-11 and the adults didn't really want to tell you what was going on, it was a similar feeling because from the moment we're born, I think we can sense these energies. We know when something's wrong, but it's as an adult, like, how much do you share with a child, you know?

27:19
So I had that exact same thing. I can remember being in their car. I remember the feel of their leather seat sitting in the back with my sister and the two of them just having this strange energy up in the driver and passenger seat and then pulling into their house. And you could tell it was, it's awkward. It's weird. No one knows what to share. But all you can do in that moment is show people kindness. And that's what we were shown. And that's how we were able to keep going. What's funny is...

27:48
You just said it, that kids know. Kids are very well aware, we understand. And I have a lot of these conversations where people are like, well, nobody told me what was going on, but I knew exactly what was happening. And had someone filled me in, it would have been a lot better than thinking that I was resilient. Did you have any experience in which the adults just kind of didn't tell you everything because they knew you would just bounce back because you're a kid? Did you have that feeling? Oh yeah.

28:17
A lot of that, I think I slowly was let in on the situation more and more, but I remember feeling the moment my brother passed away. I was in a hotel room with my cousins, my big Italian family, who I love. We were watching some kind of fun movie, and I remember looking at the clock at 9-11 and just feeling like he's gone. And the adults there knew that he was passing away that night. And I, to some degree,

28:47
No one said it, but I must have known to some degree because we were allowed to say goodbye, which is a whole other thing. Like, how do you say goodbye to someone? Especially as a kid. As a kid, yeah. I don't even know if it was presented to us that way. I think it was just like, go in there and talk to your brother, even though he's not conscious. And I remember feeling in that moment in the hotel room that he had passed away and then not being informed until the very next morning when my parents could both come and kind of sit us down and tell us.

29:16
which was just crushing, you know? And crushing for the adults in the room too. Oh yeah. Right? I can't imagine. Like thinking, I have to keep this a secret. How do I keep this a secret? How do I not tell this child or these children? And I was lucky that my family was all around and gathered. I mean, people came from near and far to be in Philadelphia where my brother was at CHOP at the children's hospital there and just be together. That certainly was a nice place to land.

29:46
But I don't know the answer. I don't know what you think. But I think to some degree, keeping children in the loop is important. But I guess it's your intention and how much you share. Because their brains are not as developed to maybe cope with things in the same way. So I think there's no right answer, really. Yeah, I don't know that there's a right answer. I can think of my own experiences and wish that people hadn't covered stuff up. But it's also.

30:17
That was how they knew what, you know, like they're a product of what they knew how to do. Right? And so we're not taught, especially to lose a child. Like we're not taught how to, how to react with that, how to tell other kids, how to do any of this thing. So I'm sure the people around you were doing it all out of love and not to, to hurt or keep secrets from you, but rather to protect you. And so I think, you know, the intentions were there. It's just.

30:45
You know, you look back on it. No, I mean, I even feel it right now with something, another aspect of my life with something that was covered up my whole life that I didn't find out until I was graduating college that I don't think is my story to share, but I feel the need to cover up. And maybe one day I'll feel like it's okay to talk about it. So I think on the other end, we all think we're protecting people by withholding information, but shows like this are a prime example of sharing is a way for people to not feel alone and relate.

31:14
But I think those are gut instincts that we feel. We feel when the time is right in a lot of ways. I think so too, and I think it's a product of our society as well. I think we are very performative and not in the Broadway sense, but very like, we can only put, we can only celebrate the good things. We can't share, like I had a really bad day, like we were talking about this, how are you kind of moment. We can't actually answer that, because if we do, that shows that we're weak or shows that...

31:45
If we're vulnerable, and like, those are all good things. And so hopefully someday we get to this place where people are just comfortable sharing things. We all make mistakes. We all do the wrong thing every once in a while. And that's relatable, right? That's like, if we own up to it and be like, you know, like I didn't mean to, here's, you know, kind of the thing. But yeah. That's why pencils have erasers. But I guess everybody was raised differently. Everybody's seeking something different with social media, for example.

32:15
Some people might find themselves being attacked if they see someone crying or sharing something emotional because they're just there for entertainment and maybe they haven't worked through some things on their own. Whereas other people might find it silly when someone sharing videos about themselves all the time. You know what I mean? It's like we can't control the way other people will respond. So we just have to do what's right for us. Thinking back to...

32:41
the experience of watching your brother's journey in the hospital. What sticks out the most to you that has kind of informed who this adult version of you is? Like, what was that journey like and what do you take from that journey? I think for me, it is the community that was formed and the acts of kindness and love we received. And that's certainly a reason why I started the podcast that I have.

33:11
Because along the way through this just terrible situation, people gave so much. I mean, from the nurses and the doctors at the hospital, who would not only take care of my brother, but sit down with us and talk to us and show us where the playroom was on the floor, to our families. And I mean, my school rallied. And

33:36
They had a whole fundraiser at my school for my brother, a bone marrow drive, in addition to many other things. There was a meal train that people put together. I mean, the people that rallied around us and really became our extended family informed me in ways I could never comprehend. And looking about it now, I think that's why I always try and be there for other people and why I try and lead with kindness, because I know that behind every action...

34:01
behind every, I mean, every time if I even get offended, if someone sends me a short text or an email that rubs me a weird way and I think, oh my gosh, they hate me, I'm terrible. You know, first of all, they're probably just busy, but second of all, I realize now that they're going through their own thing. And it's all relative. I mean, there's bad thing that happened to them that day might be that they walked outside and it started raining on them. And you can't compare that to losing someone, but.

34:29
until someone loses someone, they don't know the depth of that. So I think it's all relative and I think it's given me that lens. And then I also often, I don't know if you feel this way, but liken it to a superpower in a weird way. Because when you experience loss at such a young age, you are able to just see things for what they are and really not only appreciate the good, but I think...

34:57
when you're getting upset over something dumb that doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, it's like, this doesn't matter. Do you know what I'm saying? I agree with that if... someone has reflected enough on the experience itself. Yeah. Because I think, for me personally, my grief journey, and I don't know, we'll talk a little bit about your grief journey, but my grief journey was like two decades. Because I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the people around me that had the tools either. And not...

35:26
no fault of anyone. It just took a really long time. And I knew if I stayed in that space in which I was unable to not close the door to grief, but I'm going to say close the door to grief, losing my mom, I would not have that awareness, like you mentioned, because I think I was using it. I was using it as a crutch. I was using it as if something good happened. Well, it was because my mom died. Something bad happened. Well, it was because my mom, you know, like, and I wasn't ready to

35:55
have that adult awareness that you described there. Yeah, I mean, I'm not perfect with it at all by any means, but I think it's something over these decades that I've realized I tried it, I shouldn't say tried, that I do or attempt to do most of the time. And I should say, I don't know if I realized I've said, I've probably messaged it to you, but I am sorry about your loss as well. And I think it's interesting that you said closing the door on grief, because for me, I don't think I ever...

36:24
I don't think it ever ends. I really don't think it ever ends. I think it just becomes palatable and it becomes a part of you in a way. Because I mean, I'm sure you have a similar feeling to me, which is that there's not one day that goes by that I don't at least think of my brother once or what happened once. That's just part of it. I mean, I think grief gets an overall really bad rap because it's mostly terrible and you don't wanna do it. But there are a lot of gifts if you look for them.

36:54
Which, again, if you're just starting your grief journey, you probably want to punch me in the face for saying that. It's true. It's something we're all gonna experience eventually if we haven't already. Yeah. And I mean, everyone's grief journey is different. And the way that they approach it is different. And you mentioned how you saw all these acts of kindness around you. Do you remember that as a child, thinking like, wow, all these things people are doing? Or is it more of a reflection on those moments that kind of brought you to this point?

37:24
Probably more of a reflection because I think when you're a kid, it's, I don't want to use the word annoying, but you're almost like, why are these people in my house? It's frustrating that you feel like people are invading such a personal time, even if they're helping. So I do remember some of that. I remember being fascinated by the fact that, you know, my brother got to go backstage at Stephen Tyler's, the Aerosmith concert, and Stephen Tyler talked to him and they took a picture and then he sang to him on stage.

37:54
There were a lot of entertainment things that happened because my dad was so wonderful about reaching out to people my brother loved and getting, you know, a signed letter and photo from Rocky himself, Sylvester Stallone and things like that that fascinated me and probably, you know, marinated in my mind and then eventually decades later helps me form the podcast I have today. So those were the ones that were really fun to me. I certainly appreciated everybody's love and kindness, but again, it was...

38:23
You were a kid. A day-to-day thing, yeah. And I felt very protective of my siblings. So I was almost like, I don't know, there was a little weariness that I think made me, I mean, you know, if I'm being honest, made me, I didn't look at it this way, but act out in school. I was always kind of the class clown making jokes. And then when this happened, I remember I had to have meetings with, I went to a Catholic school with like the head priest and the principal and...

38:52
I mean, one thing, talk about, you know, adults not letting kids in on the truth of the matter. I had no idea what was going on. And it took my aunt, my fairy god aunt, my Aunt Luanne, and my grandma, my nanny, who's like, just one of my life—she's the main pole holding up my tent. Sorry, there are a lot of poles. I won't put that on her. But yeah, grandma, my nanny, so special to me. They went in there and they told these people—they read these people the truth.

39:20
You know, they said, do you know what this kid's going through right now? Sorry, he's making some jokes. So the championing of people was, was super, super valuable to me. I don't know. I'm, I'm spiraling now in my answering, but probably mostly reflection that has to answer your question. So when your brother passed, you kind of mentioned like a tornado or things like really changed your family. What, what changed in your family that is so notable that like,

39:50
You can feel that now. Oh, I mean everything. I think there is some research that comforted me over the years that most parents that have lost a child don't stay together. I mean, those are like the statistics, those are the facts. Or even just, I'm sure with any major loss, it can drive people apart. My parents did everything they could to stay together and then not stay together and then stay together again and then not stay, and there was a lot of up and down. It was a roller coaster, their relationship all throughout.

40:20
even college and until, you know, today. And so I think that was one of the main things, just the dynamic between my parents, which, you know, again, not for me to totally speak to because that's their journey, but from my point of view, that was one of the biggest downfalls, mostly because they grieve so differently, you know? And we all do, like you said. But also think about this too, they had other children.

40:49
that they had to help through this grief journey or feel the pressure of helping. And how do you help a kid who's just lost their brother? So yeah, I have heard that statistic as well and it's always fascinating to me. But I don't know. I mean, I think if we had the tools just as a society on how like we could approach things like this, maybe that statistic would be different, but I think we're a little stubborn.

41:19
at times. We just want the answer, just like give me the answer. I know in this world where you can just find a podcast on anything, find a Google anything, ask chat GPT to write you a sonnet, you know, it's certainly the world we live in, but they gave it a valiant effort and I think that was the main thing that trickled down to us. And just learning how to live with that, learning how to answer the everyday question when you meet someone. Oh, how many siblings do you have? Do you have siblings?

41:45
You know, do I lie? Do I leave out the one and pretend? I'm sure it's similar with you. Do you dishonor the person in that way or do you honor them and then make it a really awkward space where the vibe is just dead? That was a learning journey for me too. Someone who likes to keep things positive and I certainly now always tell the truth. So many little things that you don't even realize. Yeah, I, well, I used to, I told you, I weaponized it.

42:12
I didn't say that word, but I weaponized the fact that my mom died, especially as a teenager, because you're in high school and it's lots of your mom jokes in high school. And for me, it was always coming from the bullies. And so my response was, she's dead. And that stopped them. So it was a weapon that worked for me in bullying moments. But yeah, you're right. It's a super awkward question or an adult. It's much weirder when an adult asks you that question probably.

42:41
Oh, yeah. Because they're not equipped to respond to that. And you know, there's a lot of, I don't know what there is, but there's a lot of like almost shame, I guess I'll say, around people. I don't know, this is tricky, using grief to their benefit. You know, there's people that write books about loss, there's people that benefit from it. And I've started to come to the place where I'm like, well, why shouldn't they? They've been through hell. If they feel called to write about their journey, if they feel called to share whatever it is, why shouldn't that person?

43:12
process it and help other people. And I guess that goes down to somebody's intention and the truth of what happened. But I'm happy you could at least fight off bullies with it. And I know that was something you worked through on your own, but. It's interesting, you know, and I don't know. I truly do believe I've closed the door on grief with my mom, but I think it's a different circumstance. You were a little bit older than I was. I don't, at this point in my journey, I don't remember my mom. I remember that I had one.

43:40
I don't remember anything about her really. I don't have any memories of her that stand out. So I think it's a little bit different of an experience. Plus, yours was a more prolonged experience. So it was something that you had to grow while it was happening, like grow as a human, whereas mine was a sudden. And so I think there are differences there. I experienced a longer loss when my grandmother died. And so I know what that experience is like of like, well.

44:09
well, from an adult's perspective, like when is this, like we know what death is now, we know, like when is this gonna happen, this is terrible, like all these components that come with it. That one, I don't know if I closed the door on Grief on, but that's because I knew her for 30 something years, so it's a different circumstance. No, it's, everybody's different. And I think it's so human to just wanna be done and like check it off and have something, yeah, have the door shut and have it done. And you know, I...

44:37
I don't know, I don't know the answer, but I like, Jane Fonda always talks about how your life is, I guess this is very theater-y too, divided into acts. And as I'm entering like another, I think in your 30s you enter another act of your life. I think it's a similar thing where it's like, if I heard a recording of his voice or a video, it brings me back. But you're just, you become, you're the same, but you're different. There's that duality of you grow up and you have that child in you, but you're a different person. It's not part of your everyday life, so.

45:06
Well, and most of your formative years were without him. Yeah, yeah. It's true, but then the ramifications of his grief, like, still are going on today with things in my family and things that's caused and people are still... So I'm sure you find that too. It's like, just because you might have closed the door doesn't mean someone else has, and it's those dynamics that keep it going for me in a lot of ways. I can relate to that. My grandmother would never talk to me about my mom. And it wasn't even her daughter. It was my...

45:35
My dad's mother was just so close with my mother that to the day she died, she hadn't closed that door. She hadn't processed it. And she was born in the 30s, and I don't think that that was just really part of it. She lost her mother when she was two. You know, it's like, so everyone's, like we said, everyone's different, but you know, I wanna get back to this good...

45:59
this really good piece that came from this really tragic moment in your life and what your family put together. So maybe you can share a little bit about how that came about and what it is. Oh, sure. So my family, again, I keep saying this, but we always have been taught to look for the silver lining in the cloud. And so immediately when he passed away, my dad was really the one who tried to turn it into something positive. And so we started a nonprofit organization to help other kids and their families.

46:27
in a very specific way because we saw throughout our time, there were two-year-olds in the hospital with cancer whose parents were a single parent working at the diner to pay for these medical bills and just drowning and the child sitting there alone all day. And so we were thinking maybe we can pay to hire a babysitter to sit with this child. We can pay some of the bills so the mom can take off work. So we wanted to do something very tangible to help these families and not just donate money and...

46:56
my brother Thomas and make people smile at the end of the day. And my brother Thomas would always smile throughout his illnesses for the most part. There were certainly many down days, but we had this slogan, inspire a smile. So that was kind of our mission. I do remember even sitting around the table at my grandma's and, you know, big Italian family. There's even turmoil like, what's the name going to be and what's the. So we all came together and started this foundation that was very active for, you know, I want to say 10 years and we still do little things today.

47:26
The culmination of it was, and the grand finale, if you will, was my little brother Will, my other brother, was on a little league team. And one of the parents kind of found out about our family. And in the town, people kind of knew the story. And so he approached my dad and said, you know, I work for Novartis. And we're working on a new study to.

47:52
hopefully eventually cure cancer and it uses T cells to attack cancer cells. And it was all a new thing at the time. And he said, I would love to learn more about your family's story. And so push comes to shove. And he wanted my dad to speak at the Capitol before Congress about our family and our story and what we, what we do to help get this bill passed. And my dad was like, yeah, my son will do it. And so he called me one day and he's like, yeah, you're going to speak at the Capitol. I was like, what, what's going on? And so he's like, yeah, my theater kid will do it.

48:21
So me and my dad and then my younger brother went down to Washington, DC. We had a total adventure. We rode in like the underground secret travel system to go to the Capitol, which nobody knows about. Nobody knows about it, that's not a thing. You can Google it, but. And had this wild day and I ended up telling my family story similar to the things I've shared here today before Congress and.

48:46
They were very moved and crying and we were just one part of it, but I was so grateful to be a part of that bill ultimately getting passed. And now they've helped so many people. And it was a study that my brother, with the illness he had, would have been the perfect candidate for. So there was that emotion of realizing, oh, this would have cured him. You know, this would have changed everything. We just don't want that to happen to another family and for anybody to have to go through what we went through. So it was a very full circle moment.

49:16
That was one of the greatest things our foundation's ever been able to be a part of. That's, I mean, it's amazing. A lot of people don't... have the strength, I think, to do that or to... And that's okay. But it's amazing that you guys took this tragedy as a family... and you turned it into something good that could help other people potentially...

49:45
avoid the things that were really hard for you guys. Thank you. You know, it's, not a lot of people would do that. A lot of people, you know, and maybe a product of actually making it happen was that your dad didn't wanna, you know, think about things anymore. Like, let's do something, you know, like let's put this energy into action, which stuff like this can come from it. And so that's so cool. Yeah, because everybody does.

50:11
grieve differently. And I give everybody credit who just gets out of bed every day after experiencing these major losses. And if you don't and you just are stuck in it, like I guess Miss Havisham and Great Expectations, if you know that character who's left at the altar wearing her wedding dress every day, the clocks are stopped at the time she was left. Anyway, not the same thing. But I always liken things to art and literature. But anybody who just carries on, it takes strength to really do that. And it takes strength to be vulnerable and tell people your story. And

50:39
What you're doing here today is a similar thing. You're using your experience to help others in a lot of ways. So I'm glad we've had that time. And maybe it'll become active again one day. We still help maybe one to two families a year on a smaller scale. But there came a time when it just got to be, like I think you were saying, it got to be too much. It was servicing the grief. And then after so many years, it became a little painful for the older generation. So.

51:08
They're still helping people, you know? And even if you helped one person or half, you know, like half of a family, you know, you did something, that act of kindness, it goes a long way and like, you know, talking back about your story and reflecting on your time in the hospital and now seeing those acts of kindness, people are doing that now with what you guys have done to that. Like, I can't believe so-and-so. It's all very overwhelming in the moment. You don't have the wherewithal to absorb what's actually...

51:37
happening, you know, and why it's happening, but rather just like, you're just stuck in that, you described it as a tornado on the intake form, and intake, that sounds really bad, but- No, it's smart to have that. But you described it as a tornado, and it's really hard to see what's happening in a tornado. Yeah, but I also, I've heard something recently that made me, it resonated with me, which is that in these moments of life where we really don't know what is going on, but we're there, I think part of that is being present.

52:06
Part of that is actually just being in the moment, which is kind of the goal of life. So whether it's good or bad, if you're there experiencing what's actually going on, even if you don't know what's going on, you're alive and you're living in that moment. I had something, I did the red carpet event the other day and there was someone, I don't get really starstruck anymore because they're all just people, but there was someone that came up that was really big. It was Lin-Manuel Miranda, not to name job, but I left my body and I did- We all saw that.

52:36
And everybody saw it. And I did the interview. I was like, I blacked out. And my lovely, he runs our network actually, Alan, who was helping with the camera and audio, said, well, if that's how you do when you black out, I want to black out. That was great. And then he was like, if you're blacking out, it just means you're actually experiencing the moment and what's happening to you. And you were experiencing someone you look up to being in your orbit. And being present is important. And being aware.

53:02
of being present is an interesting thought as well as an adult. It's like pausing to think, I should remember this. I should, you know, maybe not black out in front of Manuel Miranda, ask him to introduce himself. Yeah, I know. I use a, well, luckily with the podcast you can, you know, because sometimes I don't know who someone is coming over and we have to have them say their name for the editor.

53:26
So it's like a nice excuse to ask people to introduce themselves. And then you find out if someone doesn't want to introduce themselves, it's like, oh, maybe I don't want to talk to you. Well, yeah, there's that. Not humble. Yeah. With the Art of Kindness podcast, do you feel that this would exist without the experiences that you've had? I don't know. I like to think so. But honestly, it just popped into my brain in the middle of the night during the pandemic when there was so much

53:55
negative news out there that I believe my entertainment background and my grief journey met somewhere in the middle and just were marinating and then boom, you know, the cookies were baked and they popped out of the oven and I had this idea because it is very much aligned with and oftentimes I'll hear my guests talk about things that remind me of what I went through and I don't in a couple episodes I'll talk about it. I don't always bring it up because I'm there to spotlight other people. I relate a lot, you know, I so I think

54:25
For sure, it's a reason why I started it. And I don't know if I wouldn't have otherwise, but... I say this about the life shift, and I wonder if it's true for you. Do you feel like part of doing your show is to help heal that 10-year-old, 11-year-old, 12-year-old, you know, when your brother was going through that? I think it's so I can eventually meet Dolly Parton. No, I'm just kidding. Well, not really, but I think that's interesting. Yeah, I think it's...

54:56
to focus on, by focusing on the kindness in today's world and in the arts, there's a big parallel with the kindness my brother experienced by people in the arts and other people. And so perhaps it is tapping into the child in me and that might be why I'm always so pumped and excited and I log onto the Zoom and I like scream people's names. And a lot of the time people are excited, but sometimes they're like, whoa, okay. Which is fine, cause it's just me. You do a fantastic job with that. Oh, thank you.

55:24
I was gonna do a compilation of me just screaming people's names because I realized that's how I greet people, which is alarming and I'm very sorry. So, yeah, that's interesting. I think so, probably. If you could, if this version of you could go back to... the Robert that's waiting for his parents that didn't show up that day, is there anything that you would want to say or do to that young man? That's really sweet. You know, I don't know if what I would say to him...

55:54
would totally be about everything I went through. I guess I would say two things. The first thing I would definitely say is something you learn when you're little anyway, but you don't fully accept. And maybe hearing it from my older self would help me is just be yourself unapologetically. Don't, you know, I used to, I don't know, shirk off is the right word, like, not own the title of being in theater or being interested in things because I was.

56:21
nervous about being bullied. I would make fun of myself first and make people laugh before someone could make fun of me. I was always trying to make everybody my friend. And I think just telling myself it's okay to just be who you are, you don't need to put on anything extra would be helpful. And then the second thing in regards to my journey might be something my nanny always tells me, which is also really simple, but very comforting to me for some reason. It's just everything is all right in the end. If it's not all right, it isn't the end.

56:51
I like that. And yeah, I mean, you might feel that even with your grief journey, closing the door, it's like, things are all right. I'm still here. And I guess that depends on your definition of all right. But yeah, just for some reason, that would be something I would say. Always choosing love. I talk about this in my podcast all the time, the two emotions. At the end of the day, there's only love and fear. And I always try to choose love. And if I'm not in that, I'm like, why am I scared? And then I just ask myself a lot of questions. But.

57:21
I would give myself a lot of post-its. I would stick post-its of inspirational quotes onto my little body and walk away. You know, a lot of people, you know, it's not really something you can answer. I think a lot of people are just like, they're gonna go through it and I would just give them a big hug, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. You just need to know that you're loved and it sounds like the message you would give this little version of you is that exactly.

57:48
Yeah, and you know what, if you're a little person that's scared and you see your older self come back and they're okay, that's, you don't really need anything else. They appeared, they're there, they made it through, that's all you need to know. Right, and then you know that time travel is real and... Yes. That's super cool. You hop in the DeLorean and you go wherever you want. Just get your plutonium. Exactly. Well, thank you Robert for sharing your story and sharing pieces of your story that... I know other people will unfortunately resonate with, right?

58:18
It's fortunate that they will hear from you, but unfortunately, they've had to go through something similar. And I think by hearing your story and what you've done with it, with your podcast, what your family's done with it, with the foundation and helping other people, it's just an honor to have this conversation with you. So thank you for being a part of this. It's an honor to be here. And I know you're similar in that. If someone's listening and does relate or is going through something, my DMs are open.

58:47
You know, I'm not, I try and have phone breaks a lot of the time, but if you wanna just shoot me a message, I'm here, you don't have to be alone, I think is something that it's hard to see through that tornado or the cloudiness of grief, but there are so many resources and communities and people that wanna help you. So let yourself be helped. That's the time in your life when you, I mean, there are no shoulds, but when it's important to. And so listening to shows like yours is vital for this.

59:15
and what you're doing is just so beautiful and what you're putting out there is invaluable. So I'm trying to think of more adjectives to describe you, but you know. You like those adjectives. Thank you for doing it. I do, I feel like why use the same word twice if you don't have to, honestly. We will share the information about your podcast and how to connect with you online. I know that Instagram is more your place these days versus Twitter, but they can connect with you there. Twitter's going down, I think. I don't know, people are jumping ship. We don't know.

59:44
And we'll share that and they can reach out to you and connect with you. Definitely listen to your podcast along that line of the adjectives. You start out every episode complementing your guests until they're probably super red in the face and like shrinking down in their seat and logging off of Zoom. So I know definitely recommend it. I try to I try to find a compliment that, A, I truly mean and B, that's not just something they maybe get every day. But I do find, you know.

01:00:13
A little flattery goes a long way, and it's nice. No, you do a great job. I am a listener, and I highly recommend it. And thank you for what you're putting into the world. Thank you for just sharing your story here. I know you don't share it on your own show too much, but I think it's important. So that's all I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say thank you one more time. Oh, and I'm gonna say thank you. And I mean, you create such a safe space that I felt that I could share some things I haven't really talked about. So I wanna thank you for doing that. I appreciate that.

01:00:42
I appreciate it. Hopefully we'll stay in touch. And if you enjoy this episode, people that are listening, or you go and listen to Robert's show, please leave us a nice little rating and review. If it does nothing else, it just makes us feel good for the day. So thank you so much and we'll talk soon, my friend. Thank you.

01:01:13
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com