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Dec. 24, 2024
Teetering on a Tightrope: Steven W. Wilson Shares His Battle with Mental Illness
On this episode of The Life Shift Podcast, Stephen Wilson shares his powerful journey of overcoming the trauma of sexual assault and the subsequent battles with mental illness, including bipolar disorder and depression. He reflects on how the shame of his experience led him to keep his story hidden for over 30 years, affecting his life in profound ways.
On this episode of The Life Shift Podcast, Stephen Wilson shares his powerful journey of overcoming the trauma of sexual assault and the subsequent battles with mental illness, including bipolar disorder and depression. He reflects on how the shame of his experience led him to keep his story hidden for over 30 years, affecting his life in profound ways.
As he discusses his early struggles, including a severe depressive episode in childhood and the lack of support during that time, he emphasizes the critical need for compassion and understanding for those facing mental health challenges.
Stephen's story is not just about personal survival; it’s also about his mission to help others navigate their own struggles through support groups and outreach. His book, "Teetering on a Tightrope," serves as a beacon of hope, inspiring those who feel alone in their experiences and showing that recovery is possible, even after deep pain.
Takeaways:
- Steve's journey illustrates the long-term effects of childhood trauma and the difficulty of sharing such experiences.
- He emphasizes the importance of support from loved ones for those dealing with mental health issues.
- Steve's experience demonstrates how mental health journeys can be complex, requiring patience and tailored approaches.
- Steve's commitment to helping others through support groups showcases the power of community in healing.
Steve Wilson, the Author of "Teetering On A Tightrope, my bipolar journey," was born in Delaware, Ohio, and now resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, with his wife, Lenni. They have been married for 51 years and have three daughters and two granddaughters. Steve spent 50 years in the custom clothing business. He retired in 2019. In 1978, he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It was not until 2000 that he was able to conquer the disorder. Since 2015, he has facilitated two mental health support groups. In 2024, he appeared on 30+ podcasts describing his journey and raising mental health awareness. One main focus is to discuss the inadequacy of government programs and the damage done by insurance companies when providing mental health care.
Teetering on a Tightrope: https://www.amazon.com/Teetering-Tightrope-My-Bipolar-Journey-ebook/dp/B0BTJ9DHNN
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Chapters
00:00 - None
00:34 - None
00:36 - Confronting the Past
05:10 - Steve's Journey: Overcoming Trauma and Finding Hope
14:12 - The Long Road to Recovery
19:23 - Understanding Bipolar Disorder
25:27 - The Importance of Mental Health Support
35:45 - Exploring the Barriers to Seeking Help
39:55 - The Journey of Healing and Helping Others
45:45 - The Journey of Support in Mental Health
Transcript
Steve
For a long time, I never thought about it.
Steve
I would say from the minute I walked out of the room where he assaulted me, I went up to the theater, sat down with my buddy who'd gone to the movie with me.
Steve
Never thought of it for years.
Steve
It just blocked.
Mack YL Hooley
Today's guest is Stephen W.
Mack YL Hooley
Wilson, and he shares a really hard moment in his early life when he was just a kid, when he was sexually assaulted in a movie theater.
Mack YL Hooley
And this was in a time period where people were not this up, and he really pushed this down.
Mack YL Hooley
And this was something that really affected him as he grew up naturally, as we would imagine it would.
Mack YL Hooley
And so he shares these pivotal moments that really defined his journey after that, including ones that manifested and showed his battle with bipolar disorder and depression and the things that he did because of those things, and how he found a way to navigate life with that and using medication.
Mack YL Hooley
And now he is a beacon of hope for others that are battling mental illness.
Mack YL Hooley
He has written a book.
Mack YL Hooley
He works with other groups of people and talks through mental illness concerns and really just helping others through these support groups, showing his strength and his compassion and how he can use his story that's not just about overcoming adversity, but about the courage to share his truth and inspire and uplift others.
Mack YL Hooley
So I know there's a lot of hard topics within this conversation, but I hope that you will take some inspiration or some little nugget of how you can support others that may be battling mental illness with you after listening to Stephen's story today.
Mack YL Hooley
So without further ado, here is my conversation with Stephen W.
Mack YL Hooley
Wilson.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm Mack YL Hooley, and this is the Life Shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.
Mack YL Hooley
Hello, my friends.
Mack YL Hooley
Welcome to the Life Shift podcast.
Mack YL Hooley
I am here with Steve.
Mack YL Hooley
Hello, Steve.
Steve
Hi, man.
Steve
How you doing?
Mack YL Hooley
Pretty good.
Mack YL Hooley
Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast.
Mack YL Hooley
This has been a journey that I never knew that I needed and I never expected.
Mack YL Hooley
But for anyone listening, that's brand new to the Life Shift Podcast.
Mack YL Hooley
This show really stems from my own personal experience.
Mack YL Hooley
When I was 8, my mom was killed in a motorcycle accident.
Mack YL Hooley
And at that moment in time, my parents were divorced, live states apart, and I lived mostly with my mom.
Mack YL Hooley
And at that moment, everything in my life changed from what it was to something that no one could have expected.
Mack YL Hooley
Kind of like a blank slate.
Mack YL Hooley
And growing up, I just was like, do other people have these singular moments in their lives in which everything kind of changes?
Mack YL Hooley
Turns out people have lots of them, but that one was very significant to me.
Mack YL Hooley
So I've had the fortune of Talking to over 150 people now about these line in the sand type moments in which one day to the next, everything kind of changes.
Mack YL Hooley
So I just am so thankful that so many strangers like yourself, Steve, are willing to have this conversation.
Mack YL Hooley
Because my real goal is that there's someone out there maybe feeling super alone in their circumstance, and they hear somebody's story and they feel, oh, I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Mack YL Hooley
And then they feel hope or inspiration to move through it.
Mack YL Hooley
So once again, thank you for wanting to be a part of this.
Mack YL Hooley
So before we get into your story, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about who Steve is in 2024.
Steve
Well, I am retired.
Steve
I spent the majority of my life in the custom clothing business.
Steve
I have been married for 52 years to my wife, Lenny.
Steve
We have three daughters, two granddaughters.
Steve
We live most of our married lives in Delaware, Ohio, just outside Columbus.
Steve
For a while, I was the sports information director at Ohio Wesleyan.
Steve
And 1958, when I was nine years old, after having spent my early years in a normal fashion, I went to the local movie theater.
Steve
Guy came up to me, asked me for some help.
Steve
Then he raped me.
Steve
He threw me up against a wall and he choked.
Steve
Now, it seems to be similar for what I felt to what a lot of people feel who have an occurrence like that.
Steve
And I was scared and lonely and lost, but I also felt somehow it was my fault.
Steve
Why did he pick me?
Steve
Did I have a glow about me that said, come get me?
Steve
I don't know.
Steve
But I decided not to tell anybody.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
And I didn't for 30.
Mack YL Hooley
30.
Mack YL Hooley
Wow.
Mack YL Hooley
So you kept that inside.
Steve
Kept it inside.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm so sorry that you experienced that.
Mack YL Hooley
It's something that we would never wish on our worst enemy.
Mack YL Hooley
Something like that into a child.
Mack YL Hooley
I can imagine why and how you absorbed, like, some kind of shame that you should not have.
Mack YL Hooley
That was not something that you should have taken on.
Mack YL Hooley
But I would imagine also at the time period people weren't like, had you shared that, what would society have, you know, how would society have responded in that way as well?
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think, does that.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think that plays into it?
Steve
They would have said, I'm making it up, that it never happened.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
Like, people don't do that a long time ago.
Steve
And it's.
Steve
It's getting better today.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
But back then, there was not even any help for a young kid like me.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
Who'd gone through that situation.
Mack YL Hooley
Did you tell no one?
Mack YL Hooley
You said you didn't tell anyone for 30 years.
Mack YL Hooley
Not a soul.
Steve
No.
Steve
I didn't even tell my wife until 2015.
Mack YL Hooley
Wow.
Steve
Well, I mean, for over 40 years at that time.
Mack YL Hooley
And you kept that a secret because of the shame that you absorbed?
Mack YL Hooley
Not rightfully so, but because of that or just.
Steve
Well, I wouldn't say that's the reason.
Steve
I would say I just shut it out of my mind.
Mack YL Hooley
Fair trauma response, right?
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
But it was still probably sitting there.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Mack YL Hooley
Because I would imagine that somehow affects you in some way.
Steve
Def.
Steve
What happened very quickly, within three or four months, I was in fourth grade and I didn't know what the hell was happening.
Steve
Ended up I was having my first depressive episode.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
It lasted for several months.
Steve
I didn't know what the hell was going on.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
I felt.
Mack YL Hooley
What were some of the things that were happening?
Mack YL Hooley
Just the way you were feeling.
Steve
You know, it's very difficult to describe the feeling because most people don't understand it.
Steve
They'll tell you, oh, go read a book.
Steve
Take a bite.
Steve
Right.
Steve
But anyway, it was like feeling worthless, like, I'm worth nothing.
Steve
I don't have any love to share.
Steve
I don't have anybody loving me.
Steve
Later on, it became suicidal ideations.
Steve
And at the time when I had this, unfortunately, I didn't realize that it was on a kind of like a roller coaster ride where I would go from depression for however long my cycle was, right.
Steve
And I'd get better and things would go all right, and then I'd fall back into that depressive state again.
Mack YL Hooley
So it was like deep, deep.
Mack YL Hooley
And then you'd be fine again.
Mack YL Hooley
Kind of like dismiss it and then go back deep into that.
Mack YL Hooley
Or did you have these eyes?
Steve
I would not say I was fine again, but I was a lot better.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
So it wasn't as dire.
Mack YL Hooley
Maybe in that sense it was better than that.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
But things started happening to me.
Steve
I would get physical aches and pains.
Steve
I would feel like the flu.
Steve
Although I never had a head, I mean, temperature or anything.
Steve
It was just all of a sudden these body things came up.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
And that is fairly normal from trauma like that.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
I talk depressed from being depressed, but I would also venture to say that this trauma that you experienced as that young child, some of that, when you push that down, I would imagine that can play itself into a physical manifestation of your body kind of feeling that way too, because I talked to someone about.
Mack YL Hooley
He was sexually abused as a.
Mack YL Hooley
I think a 6 year old.
Mack YL Hooley
And he pushed it down and about at 23, he, like, on a dime, turned in a.
Mack YL Hooley
In a sense where his body started, like, chronic pain in certain areas, and there was, like, no way out of it, like, no relief from it.
Mack YL Hooley
Turns out he figured he remembered then about the trauma that he had pushed down.
Mack YL Hooley
So it sounds like that's probably something very similar to what your body was reacting to, in a way.
Steve
I would say so, yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
And at those moments, do you think back to that trauma?
Mack YL Hooley
Is that something that.
Mack YL Hooley
That you pushed out far enough that you kind of didn't think about it a lot, or was that something that was just always there for a long time?
Steve
I never thought about it.
Steve
I would say from the minute I walked out of the room where he assaulted me.
Steve
I went up to the theater, sat down with my buddy who'd gone to the movie with me.
Steve
Never thought of it for years.
Steve
It just blocked.
Mack YL Hooley
So that's like your body was protecting you in some way or was trying to.
Mack YL Hooley
Your mind was.
Mack YL Hooley
I guess I should say you're protecting you and your.
Mack YL Hooley
Then months later, trying to remind you of that in a way.
Steve
Right.
Steve
With that, I would say that I found no connection at that time and for a long time with the sexual assault and my depression.
Mack YL Hooley
Oh, okay.
Steve
So I had no one to talk.
Steve
No.
Steve
There were no professionals I could talk to.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
And what would my parents know?
Steve
They wouldn't know anything.
Mack YL Hooley
Was the family life at home, was that semi normal?
Mack YL Hooley
Or was that like a happy family life and therefore making your depressive moments feel like, why am I feeling this way?
Mack YL Hooley
Or did you have some issues there too?
Steve
Well, it was a normal life.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
And the issues within my family towards me didn't come up until years later.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
So this, like, when you're going through fourth grade.
Steve
Mm.
Mack YL Hooley
On the outside, life is seemingly normal for a fourth grader.
Mack YL Hooley
Yet here you are feeling like.
Mack YL Hooley
Like these adult feelings of depression and why do I exist?
Mack YL Hooley
What do I offer the world?
Mack YL Hooley
And so this is.
Mack YL Hooley
This is probably pretty detrimental to your growth here.
Mack YL Hooley
Right?
Mack YL Hooley
Like, did you find it challenging to just go through life at that point or did you.
Mack YL Hooley
Like, how does that affect your day to day?
Steve
Well, it really didn't affect effect except for the thoughts.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
I'll tell you other things that happened.
Steve
I was a stellar student right after it happened, and I went into depression.
Steve
I could no longer study.
Steve
My grades dropped like hell.
Steve
I didn't want to play with my friends.
Steve
It was.
Steve
It was bad.
Steve
I just was feeling worthless.
Mack YL Hooley
How do you move through that?
Mack YL Hooley
Like, how do you continue on?
Mack YL Hooley
Because you're here now and you've made it a far away.
Mack YL Hooley
How does that build in you or how do you.
Mack YL Hooley
How do you.
Mack YL Hooley
How do you move through that?
Steve
Well, it was a hell of a long process.
Steve
You're talking.
Steve
I was nine at the time.
Steve
You're talking 50 years to where I was able to become 80% better.
Steve
It was a.
Steve
It was a strange period for me between seventh grade and college.
Steve
College.
Steve
That's when the depression really took over me.
Steve
It came in waves.
Steve
So I'd have.
Steve
I might even have a year.
Steve
That was good.
Mack YL Hooley
Oh, wow.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
I might have two months.
Steve
But things changed for a while.
Steve
I was gone back to a top student.
Steve
And then basically somewhere along 9th grade, the depression got hold of me and it was really bad.
Steve
I had to cheat to be able to pass my schoolwork.
Steve
Now, I want to tell you how you can understand how bad this was.
Steve
After my 8th grade year, I was 8th scholastically in the class out of 210.
Steve
By the time I was out, I was somewhere between 180 and 200.
Steve
So you can see that I no longer had the ability to do anything requiring work and school or anything else.
Steve
And so, as I said, I became cheating.
Steve
That's how I got through.
Steve
And then I went to college and I was better.
Steve
Well, I'll tell you why.
Steve
Because I was away from home and it was new and exciting and it was in Florida, so I felt pretty good.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, it was a chance to start a new.
Mack YL Hooley
Maybe a chance to start anew.
Mack YL Hooley
Like a.
Mack YL Hooley
Like a new ver.
Mack YL Hooley
You could be someone new.
Steve
And then when I graduated from college, that's when the deep, deep, horrible depression when I was suicidal came into being.
Steve
And I finally found a psychiatrist.
Steve
He diagnosed me as clinically depressed.
Steve
And for eight years they threw medications at me when I also spent three weeks in a mental hospital because I tried to kill my father.
Mack YL Hooley
Was this because of a.
Mack YL Hooley
Like a triggered moment or was it.
Mack YL Hooley
You were just so deep into a cycle.
Steve
I told you that family things started coming up later.
Steve
And it became very clear to me that my father basically didn't care much for me.
Steve
And one night we were at a barbecue and he really pissed me off, so I picked up a knife and was going to stab him.
Steve
And then luckily, my mind told me and I went into the mental hospital then.
Mack YL Hooley
Oh, wow.
Mack YL Hooley
So did other people.
Mack YL Hooley
Was that your own doing of going into that mental hospital because you knew, or did other people kind of?
Steve
No, I did it myself.
Mack YL Hooley
Good.
Mack YL Hooley
Good on you.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, that's big.
Mack YL Hooley
Luckily.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, luckily.
Mack YL Hooley
But also like, that takes a strength that when you're in a moment like that that a lot of people don't have.
Mack YL Hooley
So I mean, I hope you commend yourself for making that decision because that is absolutely.
Mack YL Hooley
Is huge.
Mack YL Hooley
Because I would venture to say that a lot of people don't or are unable to be that strong for themselves.
Mack YL Hooley
Did that, did that help that little stay there, help like reset anything, or did you?
Steve
Yes, it did.
Steve
The suicidal ideations were gone after that.
Mack YL Hooley
Really?
Steve
Why?
Steve
I never came back.
Steve
I've never had a suicidal thought since then.
Steve
And that was 1971.
Steve
Wow.
Mack YL Hooley
And how long were you there?
Steve
Three weeks.
Mack YL Hooley
Three weeks.
Mack YL Hooley
And was this, do you think it was like a nice little reset or was it some medication or was it some programs that they did or just getting away?
Steve
Well, it was all the above.
Steve
I was never on any medication until I went into the hospital, got it, and I, for the first time in quite a while, I felt safe.
Steve
Hmm.
Steve
Health for myself.
Steve
And after that, after I got out of the hospital and I was still told I was clinically depressed, none of the other medications that they had back time at that time for depression worked.
Steve
They'd make me sick.
Steve
It was horrible.
Steve
So one day, six years later, my psychiatrist came in and said, you know, I made a mistake on your diagnosis.
Steve
You're bipolar.
Steve
I said, what the hell's bipolar?
Steve
Never heard of it.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Mack YL Hooley
When is this?
Mack YL Hooley
The 70s, you say 70s?
Steve
Early 78.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
So people probably weren't talking about that.
Mack YL Hooley
It was probably more in books than anything else, right?
Steve
Yeah, I never heard of it.
Steve
Yeah, so he explained it to me.
Steve
And basically what it is, is there's two type of bipolar disorder.
Steve
One is called bipolar one and it manifests itself in deep depression and then zooms up to out of control mania.
Steve
That's when you see people just spend all their money, they ruin their lives, they get in terrible debt, and then they come crashing down.
Steve
They've lost their family, they've lost their friends, they've lost everything they had.
Steve
That was not or is not what I have.
Steve
I have bipolar 2, which is deep, deep depression, which goes in waves.
Steve
And when I get out of the depression, I will be pretty well in control.
Steve
But many times it goes into what's called hypomania, which is a mania that's in between depression and all out mania.
Steve
To describe what has happened in my life when I was in a hypomanic state, I took my wife a few years ago to buy a car for her.
Steve
I already had a car just Bought it a year ago.
Steve
Nothing wrong with it.
Steve
So when she bought her car, I looked over and I said, I'll take that one too.
Steve
Now that's not full blown mania.
Steve
But why would I do that?
Steve
Because I was in hypomania.
Mack YL Hooley
Interesting.
Mack YL Hooley
Is it helpful to know, like, is it helpful to know that, like, are you aware when you're in a state or is it okay, so you're not fully.
Steve
I am now.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
Because I got trauma therapy a few years ago and I look back on my life and we went through everything and saw what was going on.
Steve
And so I understand it a whole hell of a lot better now.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
So, like, when you're going through your waves, you're able to self identify.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay, I'm in this state right now.
Mack YL Hooley
Here's how I, as an individual, Steve, can process this particular moment in life.
Mack YL Hooley
Is that.
Mack YL Hooley
Is that kind of how life unfolds?
Mack YL Hooley
Now?
Steve
Going on about what happened when I was diagnosed bipolar, they switched medications and put me on lithium.
Steve
And when they put me on lithium, I got 50% better overnight, practically.
Steve
Wow.
Steve
And I was able to resume my life.
Steve
I screwed up everything.
Steve
Even after that, I couldn't keep a job.
Steve
Made a lot of mistakes, did a whole bunch of stuff that was bad, but I wasn't in a very bad depression at the time.
Steve
I was pretty much in control, but my mind had racing thoughts.
Steve
I couldn't shut my mind down.
Steve
So as I said, I couldn't keep a job.
Steve
And the owner reached.
Steve
Only way I was able to support myself was because my family owned a good sized clothing business.
Steve
And I went into the business with them.
Steve
And the big reason I did that was because I felt safe.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
I was offered a job.
Steve
I'd been a sports information director at Ohio Wesland University.
Steve
And after my first year, I was only there for filling in for a year.
Steve
And after that, they came to me and said, I want you to go.
Steve
We'd like you to go to Ohio University and their sports management program and come back to us and take over the whole thing.
Steve
Great job, great opportunity.
Steve
Couldn't do it.
Steve
Scared, unfamiliar.
Steve
I would have failed miserably.
Steve
So that ruined what at the time, would have been a tremendous thing I always wanted to do.
Mack YL Hooley
And was that before or after the diagnosis of bipolar?
Steve
That was before.
Mack YL Hooley
Before.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think that you would have made different decisions had you already had that diagnosis by then?
Steve
If I'd been on lithium, I would have, yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
What does the lithium do for you?
Mack YL Hooley
Does it just level things out or does it shrink the Curve a little bit.
Steve
It takes away a lot of the depression.
Steve
Now I'm not honored anymore because it ruined my kidney, I would imagine, and I had to have a kidney transplant.
Steve
That was years later, 20 years later.
Steve
And anybody who hears that should know that I would not have changed and gone off of lithium anytime before that because I was feeling normal.
Steve
I didn't want to.
Steve
The worst thing for me was to ever go back into that deep, deep suicidal depression.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Mack YL Hooley
When you.
Mack YL Hooley
And you also mentioned that when you were in that mental health hospital for the three weeks, like you haven't had suicidal thoughts since then, was any of that experience, I hate to jump back that far, but was any of that experience like one of the first times where you saw other people that felt like you and like you felt a little less alone in that, like.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
Depression scene in a way, almost.
Mack YL Hooley
And I wonder if any of that triggered the sense like, okay, well maybe it's not.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm not the only one that is in this dire situation and then therefore the kind of the suicidal ideation subsides a little because, you know, you're not alone.
Steve
Yes, absolutely.
Steve
And also this is a very specialized hospital.
Steve
I went into in Columbus and did a lot of things.
Steve
Art therapy, physical therapy, all these phys.
Steve
All these things helped me a bunch.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
And none of the trauma from when you were nine came up in any of those situations in the hospital?
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, sure they did.
Steve
We had therapy and one on one therapy.
Steve
I was going into therapy three times a week.
Steve
I was so bad at that time.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Mack YL Hooley
And it was all.
Mack YL Hooley
And so you were unpacking some of that trauma from your nine year old experience?
Steve
No.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
So I bought it out.
Steve
I never even told the psychiatrist or the.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay, so there.
Mack YL Hooley
That never came up in that mental health stay or anything that was like 50 years later in which you were.
Steve
Well, I'll tell you what happened because psychiatrists, therapists are great, but they screw up from time to time because they're.
Mack YL Hooley
Human, I guess, right?
Mack YL Hooley
Yes.
Steve
But anyway, they.
Steve
In about 1985, I'd been with a psychiatrist for 15, 16 years.
Steve
Thought a lot of him had never told him about what happened to me.
Steve
So I went into this session and I decided to tell him.
Steve
He ignored it, wouldn't talk about it.
Steve
Now he was a lot older than me.
Steve
Maybe his upbringing said a man or a kid won't get raped or whatever, but he just glossed over it and that set me back another 15 year.
Mack YL Hooley
It's like, I can't bring this up because, yeah, I Guess no one really does care.
Mack YL Hooley
He was kind of like proving the point right.
Mack YL Hooley
That you hoped he wouldn't.
Mack YL Hooley
So like, as, as a nine year old, you probably felt that that's why you didn't bring it up then.
Mack YL Hooley
You know, I mean, I know you push it down, but like a sense of like, I'm not going to say anything because no one's going to believe me and people are going to push away and dismiss it.
Mack YL Hooley
And here you go, being open and bold to someone that should listen and acknowledge and help.
Mack YL Hooley
And he also does what you expected everyone to do so many years prior.
Mack YL Hooley
That's, I'm, I'm sorry that that happened to you.
Mack YL Hooley
It's a, it's a shame.
Steve
Yeah.
Steve
He really screwed up badly then and we never brought it up again.
Steve
And he never.
Mack YL Hooley
And you kept seeing him and you kept seeing him after that.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
He died two or three years later.
Steve
But I did keep seeing him.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
Well, yeah, that's, it's, it's interesting because I don't know if you've experienced this too in your therapy journey as well.
Mack YL Hooley
Like, it took me, it took me about 20 years to grieve the loss of my mother in a way that I feel properly.
Mack YL Hooley
And when I was ready to do so, reaching out to therapists because of depression, anxiety, all the things that I'm sure, because I push things down kind of just manifested in, in Mexico.
Mack YL Hooley
But it took me like five or six people, you know, to go through, like try out this therapist.
Mack YL Hooley
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
For a couple months.
Mack YL Hooley
Doesn't feel right.
Mack YL Hooley
Dismisses things that I think they shouldn't.
Mack YL Hooley
Not as drastic as, as what you had, but it did.
Mack YL Hooley
It took me like six people to get through.
Mack YL Hooley
And like, I can imagine there's tons of people out there that just quit after the first one.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
You know, and that sucks.
Steve
And I want to tell you now, I think that this is a great segue into the fact that since 2015, I have been facilitating three mental health support groups in the Phoenix area.
Steve
And it has really opened up my eyes to what all of these people go through.
Steve
I had overall very good therapy.
Steve
There are so many people out there.
Steve
Because of the way.
Steve
Well, most of my people, I would say, are on disability.
Mack YL Hooley
The people you work with now in my group.
Mack YL Hooley
Okay.
Steve
Because they have no other way to get therapy.
Steve
The insurance companies have, do everything they can to shut down mental health claims, so.
Steve
And if they can't shut them down, they make the professional psychiatrists and therapists charge so much that 50% of the people who are Mentally ill.
Steve
And by the way, I want to throw out a figure.
Steve
Now.
Steve
60 million people in the United States have a mental illness.
Steve
That's 20%.
Steve
So.
Steve
And the statistics also say that out of those 60 million, 30 million get no treatment or.
Steve
Oh, I believe that they can only get treatment through disability.
Steve
And disability offers them clinics that are completely overrun with sufferers and is a terrible solution.
Steve
And then disability, which is now just out of source, they pay people.
Steve
And this doesn't just have to be mental illness.
Steve
It can be a lot of other reasons people go on disability.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
The top amount you can make is about $20,000 a year if you want to.
Steve
If one of these people wants to supplement their income and they go out of get a job, say they get a part time job making $15,000 a year.
Steve
Well, what does disability do?
Steve
They come in and say, well, you're making over that 20,000, so you don't get disability anymore.
Steve
So they cut them off.
Steve
And now a guy who was getting 20,000 from disability is only making 15,000.
Steve
So in my estimation, it is a real joke.
Steve
And I know this because people consistently talk about it in my groups.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
And you started these groups because of your experiences?
Steve
Yes, yes.
Steve
And also in about the year 1995, I was doing pretty damn well.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
And I started speaking to high school psychology classes in and out in and around Ohio.
Steve
And you know that statistic I gave you that it was 20% were mentally ill?
Steve
Well, that includes students, young adults.
Steve
They're also 20% mentally mental problems.
Steve
So I began talking to high school classes.
Steve
And what I found was that the schools have no good programs for helping these people.
Steve
They don't understand what these kids are going through.
Steve
The kids are under and a tremendous amount of pressure.
Steve
If they're good students and good athletes, their parents and everybody else are pushing them to be better, better, better.
Steve
So I would hold, after my talks, I would hold a special session where anybody who wanted to come up and talk to me, I would be glad to hear their story.
Steve
Yeah, this one girl one time came up to me and said, I am number one student.
Steve
She was a senior.
Steve
I am one of the best athletes in the school.
Steve
And I am so much under so much pressure from my parents, from my coaches, from my teachers, that I want to kill myself.
Steve
Right after that, another girl came up.
Steve
She was different.
Steve
She was in the middle, scholastically.
Steve
She was.
Steve
I don't even know if she was an athlete at all.
Steve
But she said, I have no friends, nobody likes me.
Steve
I feel terrible.
Steve
I want to kill Myself, nothing I could do other than to tell them where to get help.
Steve
Yeah, but the schools don't do anything about it, or they do very little.
Steve
Now, that was 20, 25 years ago.
Steve
Today it is better, but not great.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, well, something about that.
Mack YL Hooley
I feel like that example is the power of story and the power of permission.
Mack YL Hooley
Like, you came in, told your story, probably were more vulnerable than some of the people that they've ever heard from before, and they felt seen, heard, safe to come up to you and tell you their deepest, darkest secret because no one else they knew because their parents were pressuring them and this and that.
Mack YL Hooley
And if they had said that to any of them, they probably would have been dismissed like you were by your therapist in that moment.
Steve
And so the sad thing about that is I have no idea what happened after they left.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm sure you made an impact.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm sure that something you said.
Mack YL Hooley
I don't know about you, but the first times I've ever, like, said something out loud, maybe like when I was trying to grieve my mother and how I felt about that or something stupid that I felt in my head, it wasn't stupid, but something that I felt was stupid inside.
Mack YL Hooley
And I said it out loud.
Mack YL Hooley
It kind of lightened the load a little bit.
Mack YL Hooley
And my.
Mack YL Hooley
My hope is that those young ladies that spoke to you, they said it out loud, they heard it, they processed it, they heard your story, and they felt inspired to.
Mack YL Hooley
To move through it.
Mack YL Hooley
And I would hope, because there is some power in releasing that from.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm sure you feel this too, like, letting some steam out of the valve, you know, like, all that stuff bottled up for me is much scarier in my head than it is when I say it out loud or when I put it on paper or something along those lines.
Steve
So let's turn the table and go to the flip side of when nothing works for these people.
Steve
As I said, I've been doing these three groups for nine years now.
Steve
I've had two people kill themselves in my groups.
Steve
And three days ago, one of my group members, who is about 28 or 30 and suffering badly from her illness, her best friend killed herself.
Steve
So now this girl is in even more imminent danger, reacting to her best friend killing herself and everything else that's happening to her.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
So not everybody makes it through.
Steve
I don't know why.
Steve
This one girl who was in my group was about 25.
Steve
She was going for a master's in college.
Steve
She was very depressed, and she said, I'll never hurt myself because I love my grandmother so much or her mother, whatever one.
Steve
And I won't do anything because I'm taking care of her.
Steve
The next week she killed herself.
Mack YL Hooley
Oh, yeah.
Steve
It is horrible what these people go through and what I went through.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
But as I always wrote, as I wrote in my book, there's always hope.
Steve
It's a long, long journey.
Steve
Can't get.
Steve
There is no cure for any of this, by the way.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
But you can get better and live a productive life.
Steve
That's one of the big themes of my book.
Steve
And I hope it gets through to some people.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you feel that it's, it's.
Mack YL Hooley
What do you think it is?
Mack YL Hooley
What do you think that the trick is?
Mack YL Hooley
Because, is it being heard?
Mack YL Hooley
Is it tools?
Mack YL Hooley
Is it a little bit of everything?
Mack YL Hooley
Is it understanding?
Mack YL Hooley
Is it medicine?
Mack YL Hooley
What do you think that the key is?
Mack YL Hooley
Or is the key different for everyone?
Steve
Well, the key is different for everyone.
Steve
Patient only works in.
Steve
50% of the patients believe that.
Steve
So there are things you can do.
Steve
And I just had.
Steve
Just gave a talk on this to my groups the other night.
Steve
There are therapies that people can do if medication is working.
Steve
They can supplement it with these therapies if medication is not available.
Steve
These therapies also help very well.
Steve
Can help.
Steve
One is emdr, which is eye movement.
Steve
It's got a long, long name.
Mack YL Hooley
I've talked to a few people about EMDR and they found that worked for their trauma.
Steve
Yes, there's cognitive behavioral therapy and there's dialectical behavioral therapy.
Steve
All of these tools are under the guidance of a therapist.
Steve
But they can do a good job on keeping somebody in control and not as bad if they didn't have them.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
Problem people who are in the not able to be help therapy because they don't have enough money or insurance.
Steve
Where are they going to hear about these things?
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
And they don't.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
So we talk about them a lot in my groups and they can really work.
Steve
Well.
Steve
There's ketamine treatments and psychedelics that can help.
Mack YL Hooley
However, talk to people about that too.
Steve
Yeah, talk.
Steve
Talk about the government allowing big Pharma to step in and ruin the great therapy.
Steve
I won't say great.
Steve
The good therapy for some mentally ill people.
Steve
Ketamine, which was covered by insurance.
Steve
The government has said that it's not what Food and Drug FDA approved.
Steve
So the insurance companies have decided not to cover ketamine.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
And ketamine costs about $15,000 a year or more.
Steve
So that's our government FOIA.
Steve
They bow.
Steve
They bow out to whatever big pharma wants.
Mack YL Hooley
There's also the complexity of where, you know, earlier when I was like, good on you for putting yourself in that mental health hospital or that.
Mack YL Hooley
That setting.
Mack YL Hooley
Because I think there's also something where it takes a lot for someone that is in the throes of hardship to seek out a solution, to seek out.
Mack YL Hooley
It's a lot of work.
Mack YL Hooley
It's a lot of energy, and it's a.
Mack YL Hooley
It's a lot of expenditure just physically to admit, to walk through, to ask for help, to try things that don't seemingly work and then try something else.
Mack YL Hooley
So, I mean, I feel like that's another barrier too, because, like, that's hard to ask for help.
Mack YL Hooley
Well, I.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, you can say I'm wrong, but I think it is.
Steve
You're exactly right.
Steve
My groups, we talk about this quite a bit.
Steve
And in the 50% of people who are not.
Steve
Well, no, that's not right.
Steve
I would say in all of people who are most all of the people who are mentally ill, when it comes to going to a therapist, it's a tough thing to do.
Steve
So people put it off or don't do it.
Steve
So their own worst enemy.
Steve
Then when they do go to a therapist and they're helped out and maybe put on medication, well, the guy with the mental problem will take the pill if it doesn't work right away.
Steve
And it usually takes a month or so to get working.
Steve
If it doesn't work in that first few days, they won't take it anymore.
Steve
They'll never find out if it helped.
Steve
Then there's the other people who won't take medication for whatever reason.
Steve
And I've had a lot of those people.
Steve
And then there are the people who just won't seek help.
Steve
They have this stigma against therapists, and they think, oh, they're just boogeyman.
Steve
They can't help me.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
So they stay away from them.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
A lot of times it's the patient's fault that they don't get help.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, I think.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, I think that's true.
Mack YL Hooley
I think for, I mean, for me personally, that grief journey of losing my mom 20 years, I pushed it off.
Mack YL Hooley
I wasn't ready until I was like, early 30s to really, like, start to process it appropriately.
Mack YL Hooley
And that's when I sought out help.
Mack YL Hooley
Had I been forced before, like, if someone was like, you have to go, I don't think it would have worked.
Mack YL Hooley
I think I had to be ready.
Mack YL Hooley
And that's a hard.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, that's a long journey Luckily, I wasn't in dire straits.
Mack YL Hooley
Often there were times that maybe they were harder than others, but it was really like early 30s when I was like, I need to do this.
Mack YL Hooley
And I went through that whole thing.
Mack YL Hooley
Like, I went to a psychiatrist.
Mack YL Hooley
I think one of my six was a psychiatrist, and he was like, try this.
Mack YL Hooley
Medicine is.
Mack YL Hooley
Then you try it.
Mack YL Hooley
Then you find it doesn't work right after however long you're supposed to wait for it.
Mack YL Hooley
But then you have to wean off of that one before you try the next one.
Mack YL Hooley
So now you're in this period of a mess.
Mack YL Hooley
So eventually, I just went away from medications at all and found that when I found the right person, the right things all clicked together and everything kind of worked.
Mack YL Hooley
But it's a journey, and it's just.
Mack YL Hooley
And if you're already depressed or exhausted or all those things, it's like doubly hard to kind of go through that process.
Mack YL Hooley
So I get it.
Mack YL Hooley
I get why people battle it.
Mack YL Hooley
It's.
Mack YL Hooley
It's not easy.
Steve
That's not easy.
Steve
It is very true.
Steve
I will say one thing about you giving up the medications, because first one or two didn't work.
Steve
When I was stricken with my worst time, there were only three or four medications to help clinical.
Steve
Clinical depression and bipolar.
Steve
Luckily, lithium worked for me today.
Steve
It's been shown that most people have to try many medications till they find the one that works.
Steve
And the best result comes from a cocktail of medications.
Steve
3, 4, 5.
Steve
I'm on 4, 3, 4 or 5 medications that work off of each other, work together.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
But what you did, you gave it up before now, who knows what would have helped?
Steve
But you got the.
Steve
The psychiatrist ended up helping the most.
Steve
So that was good.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
I found my journey.
Steve
Never give it enough of a try.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, it was.
Mack YL Hooley
It was quite a journey.
Mack YL Hooley
And it's not something that, like you said, like we agreed on.
Mack YL Hooley
It's a different.
Mack YL Hooley
There's a different key for everyone.
Mack YL Hooley
But I can't help but think about your story now and how you're helping these people or you are working with these people to help guide them.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think that a lot of the reason you do it is because you now are the person you needed when you were younger?
Steve
I don't know how to explain it.
Steve
I have been fortunate enough throughout this journey to learn from.
Steve
When I started speaking to those high school classes that I had a lot to offer in this field, and I didn't want people to have to go through what I went through.
Steve
And that's been my.
Steve
I'D say I've felt that way for many, many years.
Steve
I wrote the book Teetering on a Tightrope to get the word out.
Steve
And now I've done over 40 podcasts to hopefully, even when I'm gone, people, the messages I've given will be out there so people will see it.
Steve
Yeah, that's why I do it.
Steve
I do it so people don't have to suffer like I did.
Mack YL Hooley
Like you did.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think I get a lot.
Steve
Of good out of it myself?
Mack YL Hooley
I would imagine.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
There's probably some healing piece of.
Mack YL Hooley
Every time you're able to.
Mack YL Hooley
To help, I just think, like, what if Steve Wilson was like talking at your high school, you know, like when you were a kid and you heard you talk, like, not you particularly, but someone that had gone, that was feeling those things, like when they were younger and look at them now, they're thriving or now they're living a life that feels normal and happy and all the things that you maybe didn't think were possible.
Mack YL Hooley
Do you think that, like, that would have changed the trajectory of your life because you saw someone?
Steve
Oh, because it was not.
Steve
It was in the 70s.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
I don't have a clue what happened then.
Steve
If it were today, hopefully it would have a big impact on me.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
It's hard.
Mack YL Hooley
I think about.
Mack YL Hooley
I think about that a lot.
Mack YL Hooley
Like a 10 year old version of me, like, knew an adult that had a dead parent and grew up just fine.
Mack YL Hooley
If I would have struggled as much as I did trying to be perfect so that other people wouldn't leave my life like my mom did, I mean, it wasn't of choice, but she died and therefore she left.
Mack YL Hooley
So I became a perfectionist because I didn't want anyone else to be.
Mack YL Hooley
To leave.
Mack YL Hooley
And, you know, kind of like the young version of you took on this unnecessary shame.
Mack YL Hooley
It was like I took on unnecessary blame that my mom died, but it wasn't, you know, it was out of my control.
Mack YL Hooley
But I just.
Mack YL Hooley
You just assume these things when you're kids.
Mack YL Hooley
And I think about, like, had I known someone when I was younger, would I have taken 20 years to grieve that?
Mack YL Hooley
I don't know.
Mack YL Hooley
To your point, I don't know.
Mack YL Hooley
It was the 80s and 90s and things were different then too.
Steve
Well, the question is, where would you be today if you hadn't gone through that kind of stuff?
Steve
Where would I be today?
Steve
Yeah, I certainly wouldn't be helping people or trying to help people like I am now.
Steve
So maybe the ends justify the means.
Mack YL Hooley
I Agree.
Mack YL Hooley
It's hard to.
Mack YL Hooley
I think you have to be able to reflect on those moments and get through those moments and think about how there are things to be grateful for.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
Despite the circumstances that we've gone through.
Mack YL Hooley
But you're right.
Mack YL Hooley
I would not be this version of me.
Mack YL Hooley
You would not be this version of you.
Mack YL Hooley
You would not be impacting the people in your life the way that you do now had you not struggled through all of those pieces of your life.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
Which is, like, so crappy.
Mack YL Hooley
Like, it's not like we want this, but at the same time, like, look what we can do now, because you've kind of.
Mack YL Hooley
I don't want to say made it to the other side, but you've kind of made it through to a space that feels more comfortable for you compared to that earlier version of you.
Mack YL Hooley
Right.
Steve
Yes.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
That's.
Mack YL Hooley
I mean, good on you.
Mack YL Hooley
This is.
Mack YL Hooley
This is.
Mack YL Hooley
Not only do I still get stuck on that, like, you put yourself in a space that you needed to get a little healthier at the time after that incident where you almost did something that you probably would have regretted, but now you make the decision to help other people.
Mack YL Hooley
You don't have to.
Mack YL Hooley
You make the choice to do that, and that's big.
Mack YL Hooley
So kudos to you for impacting so many people from what you've learned and your compassion that you have for these other people.
Steve
Well, thanks.
Steve
And the same to you, too.
Steve
One of the sad things about the journey to assist people in mental illnesses is that most of the time, I never know the outcome.
Steve
And we have a girl in our group, she's maybe 45, and she was having postpartum depression, and she had a faulty marriage and no support and all this, and she became very suicidal.
Steve
And she tried to commit suicide earlier in her life.
Steve
And she was on our group one night, and she was really in bad shape.
Steve
And all of us in the group, we didn't tell her to go.
Steve
We never, in my group give any advice.
Steve
That's not our job.
Steve
But we suggested that she ought to think about going into a hospital.
Steve
Well, the next day or two, she went to her therapist, and her therapist said, no, no, no, you don't need to go to a hospital.
Steve
Two days later, she tried to kill herself.
Steve
And the only reason she lived is because her husband came in and found her and saved her.
Steve
You know, it just.
Steve
It just points out that it's everywhere.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Steve
And those stats I gave you before, that's worldwide.
Steve
That isn't just the US that's everywhere.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah.
Mack YL Hooley
It's it's really.
Mack YL Hooley
It is a epidemic.
Steve
It's.
Mack YL Hooley
It's rough, but you're doing what you can in the space that you are.
Mack YL Hooley
And you're.
Mack YL Hooley
You're doing what you know how to do, what you probably needed more of in your life as you were going through your battles.
Mack YL Hooley
And now you can do it for other people.
Mack YL Hooley
I think it's.
Mack YL Hooley
I think it's commendable.
Mack YL Hooley
And, you know, sometimes it's all we can do is what we can do.
Mack YL Hooley
No, we can't change the world, but maybe in the little space that we're in, we can change some lives through that.
Mack YL Hooley
So I definitely think, I like to kind of ask this question, and I know it's not possible, but if, if this version of you could talk to that fourth grader that was starting to feel very offensive and very different, is there anything that you would want to.
Mack YL Hooley
Want to tell that younger version of Steve about this journey he was about to go on?
Steve
Well, the best thing I could give him me, when I got assaulted, was my support.
Steve
Too few people in the world are there to support mental illness.
Steve
Many people believe it's a sham.
Steve
Many people want to tell you there's nothing wrong with you.
Steve
Go for a run, something like that.
Steve
The parents do it, the siblings do it, friends do it.
Steve
What they should be doing is saying, God, I don't know what to do, but I'm here for you in any way you need me.
Steve
But so many families don't know what to do, or they don't believe it or they don't care.
Steve
The big factor I think I could bring myself at that time was my support, a hug.
Mack YL Hooley
I'm here if you need anything.
Mack YL Hooley
Not telling you to do anything, but I will listen and I will be here.
Mack YL Hooley
I think it's.
Mack YL Hooley
It's probably what I would say to the younger version of myself as well, is that, like, I felt like I couldn't tell anyone I was sad because everyone didn't want me to be sad.
Mack YL Hooley
So I needed to be happy.
Mack YL Hooley
So I think I would say the same to my younger self.
Mack YL Hooley
Well, thank you for sharing your story.
Mack YL Hooley
I know it's really not the easiest to share sometimes, but if people want to, like, check out your book or connect with you, like, what's the best way to find you and get in your world?
Steve
Well, the title of my book is Teetering on a Tightrope, My Bipolar Journey.
Steve
It is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and other places.
Steve
I don't remember them all.
Mack YL Hooley
I'll put a link in the show.
Mack YL Hooley
Notes for you.
Steve
It's like 12 or $13.
Steve
It's 160 pages long.
Steve
It's a quick, easy read.
Steve
If want to look at my website.
Steve
The website is author Steve W.
Steve
Wilson, gmail.com.
Steve
or is it one of those two?
Mack YL Hooley
Well, that would be your email address.
Mack YL Hooley
The Gmail part.
Steve
Yeah.
Steve
So it's dot com.
Steve
Because it's a website.
Steve
Website.
Mack YL Hooley
Awesome.
Steve
My.
Steve
My own email address is on the website.
Steve
Anybody can call me if they want to.
Steve
I am also branching out and offering expanded, not expanded by the time, but extra amounts of mental health support groups.
Steve
There will be two other current or past facilitators with me and we will be offering.
Steve
And all our.
Steve
All of our groups are online.
Steve
We will be in the next month or so beginning to offer our support groups wherever you can find them.
Steve
We have a guy in Florida.
Steve
There are two of us in Phoenix.
Steve
We're looking for others and it's free.
Steve
And we're just out here to reach out to people who need a helping hand.
Mack YL Hooley
Yeah, I need to just hear, be heard, see, know that they're not alone.
Mack YL Hooley
That's great.
Mack YL Hooley
We will.
Mack YL Hooley
We'll include all those links into in the show notes or I will include those in the show notes.
Mack YL Hooley
I don't know why I said we.
Mack YL Hooley
It's just me.
Mack YL Hooley
But we'll put all that information in the show notes so people can connect with you, reach out to you, share their story, share how your story impacted them.
Mack YL Hooley
If you're listening now and something that Steve said resonated with you, please reach out to him.
Mack YL Hooley
Or maybe you know someone in your life that needs to hear Steve's story or needs to be part of one of these groups, please share this episode with them.
Mack YL Hooley
We would be so grateful for that.
Mack YL Hooley
So thank you again, Steve, for sharing your story in this way and I.
Steve
Sure shall appreciate it for sure.
Steve
Know of anybody doing podcasts in the same area we are?
Steve
Have them get in touch with me and I'll be glad to do a podcast as a guest.
Mack YL Hooley
Sure thing.
Mack YL Hooley
And anyone listening too.
Mack YL Hooley
If you have a podcast and you are interested in having Steve share his story in the way that your podcast does it, please reach out.
Mack YL Hooley
Reach out to me and I will connect you.
Mack YL Hooley
And if you are listening, thank you for listening.
Mack YL Hooley
I am so grateful for you.
Mack YL Hooley
And with that, I'm going to say goodbye and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast.
Steve
Bye everybody.
Steve
Thanks.
Mack YL Hooley
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.
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