Reclaiming Joy and Finding Justice: A Healing Journey | Tanmeet Sethi

00:00
It doesn't mean it all got solved or my journey took years, but what I'm saying is there was an igniting moment where one of us, we still to this day kind of lovingly argue about who said it first, but we said, why not me? Why not us? Why not Zubin? And it wasn't this moment of like, what the hell, we're all going to suffer, let's do ours or nothing like that. But it was a moment of, why can't we?

00:30
live this life and figure out how to still teach our family that life is more than this smaller story that we may have been given or told. Why not us? And why not us? Because are we that arrogant to think that only humans who deserve quote unquote suffering get it? No, we've never thought that. So when we say why me, we don't mean to, but as humans, what we're really trying to rationalize is how we could have deserved something. And we realized in that moment,

01:00
We don't deserve this and no one does. We're just human like everyone else and we also deserve to figure this out. Then our heads went back into our hearts, we cried a lot more and the days got harder and harder. I'm not gonna paint a picture that isn't true, but what I'm gonna tell you is that moment was everything for us. My guest this week is Tanmeet Sethi, a board certified integrative family physician, a clinical associate professor and author of the book

01:29
Joy is my justice. In this episode, Tanmeet opens up about how she finds joy and fulfillment amidst adversity. As an integrative and psychedelic medicine physician, she shares her experience of receiving a devastating diagnosis for her son, Zubin, and how it led her to explore new perspectives on life and happiness. She talks about the transformative power of unconditional love, and she shares how her son's illness,

01:57
taught her the true meaning of love without conditions or expectations. She talks about how she discovered that love has the power to bring immense joy and strength during the most challenging times. Tanmeet firmly believes that joy is a powerful force for healing and transformation, and she's dedicated to helping others discover it within themselves. I personally think that this conversation will touch your heart and it will certainly leave you with a sense of hope and possibility.

02:25
and I encourage you to follow her journey through social media and her website and take a look at her book. It is super inspiring. Before we get into the episode, I wanted to thank my Patreon members, Traci, Miki, and Emily. All three of these ladies sponsor two episodes a month on the Patreon support page. That's the highest tier. Super thankful. It's allowing me to upgrade some equipment. It's allowing me to pay for some of the hosting.

02:55
If you're interested in learning more about how you can support the Life Shift Podcast, you can check out the Patreon page, which is patreon.com slash the LifeShift Podcast. And there are tiers starting at $3. And any member of the Patreon automatically gets entered.

03:12
for every t-shirt giveaway that I do. And I do these every time five more people join the Patreon. So we're just a couple people away. So if you want to help me meet my goal of 30 supporters by the end of 2023, I'd greatly appreciate it. But with that, I want to introduce you to my friend Tanmeet Sethi. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:51
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Tanmeet. Thank you for being here. Oh, I'm really looking forward to it, Matt. I'm so excited. I appreciate that. It's such a weird space to be in as me with the LifeShift Podcast, because I feel like my journey, if you've listened to any of the episodes, I think listeners have heard my personal episode. I think you've also heard that one, but...

04:16
You know, for so long in my journey after my mom died, it was like, I always felt like I couldn't share these things. I felt like society was like, no, you're a guy, so you can't be sad and you need to perform and you need to do all this stuff. And the more that I get the opportunity to talk to people like you and like the 90 something other people that I've had the opportunity to talk to now, that actually like,

04:45
want to actively come on and have a conversation about something that is personal to them, it's like mind-blowing and it's such a weird situation. So thank you for just being a part of this, what I'm calling the most fulfilling journey that I've been on. Oh, that's so big. I think if people could see, I don't know if people are watching your face, the way you light up when you say that feels like when people are a beacon for what they're so excited about, it just gets, it's a gift. It's a gift to...

05:15
to me, to the world. So thank you. Well, thank you. It's, I don't know. I guess this is what it feels like when you find the space that feels right. I often talk to people about this checklist life of how I went through living in essentially, like you graduate high school, you do well in high school, then you go to college, then you get a job, then you get a promotion. You buy the car, you buy the house, you do all the things. But you don't like doing any of it, right?

05:43
And then you finally, like in my 40s, I find this. And I'm like, oh, that's what it feels like. Do you have that in your life? Do you have that space? So good. I am fortunate to have been doing work for the last 25 years that lights up my soul. I love that for you. Well, and I hope that we hear some of that in your story. And you know, it's maybe before you kind of paint the picture of who you.

06:08
were before this life shift moment. Maybe you can just tell us a little bit about who you are. It might divulge some of the secrets, but that's okay. I think it's helpful to understand who you are and where you came from before we get into painting the picture of that before life. Oh yeah, thank you for asking. So I am, well, Tanmeet, as you all know, and I'm a mother to three amazing, challenging, beautiful young souls.

06:35
And I am an integrative and psychedelic medicine physician. I've been in, I'm a family medicine physician by training and have been in integrative family medicine for the last 25 years on the front lines in the hospital, the delivery room, the clinic. And I'm now shifting out of primary care to focus on my integrative work and psychedelic work. So I'm also researching psilocybin at the University of Washington. So doing psychedelic research and

07:03
I teach and I write. I'm a new author and I'm a speaker. Thank you. So all of my work, it sounds, I know, like I do so much, but really they're all on the same thread, which is really about this mission that I've been on for myself and for others. What I think of now is coalescing as understanding that I'm catalyzing joy.

07:28
Well, that's a big lofty goal for you. And then something like super, something to live up to, like when you tell people that, right? You're like, oh, now I gotta deliver. I know, now let's see how the rest of the conversation goes. But yeah. Have you just recently come to that, like condensing it down to that short statement? As you know, I mean, my book is called Joy Is My Justice, and this joy work has been really coalescing in the last 10 to 15 years.

07:56
through my work in trauma globally and integrative mental health and my own personal journey. But I'm realizing that my psychedelic work is just another extension of that in that it's another tool to catalyze insight and bring yourself to joy and more thriving in your life. Yeah. I've had these conversations. So I'm really, oh, I've had a couple of these conversations in the LifeShift Podcast of people speaking about Celia Simon and...

08:24
and things along those lines. I'm really interested to hear your story. As you know, as the listeners know, I don't wanna know too much beforehand. So I just, there's a lot of pressure in that as well, but maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this pivotal moment that I'm guessing brought you to this opportunity of living in this joy and providing that to others. Yeah, I mean.

08:49
So I was in the same way an integrative family physician and doing global trauma work and working with the most marginalized communities. So social justice and activism has been a huge part of my professional and personal life for my whole career in life. And I'm that kind of person who when something's wrong, especially if someone's an underdog, I'm there to fight and I'm ready to fight. And it's probably because I felt like an underdog most of my life, yeah.

09:16
You always fight for what you need to heal from, right? Well, I think so. Yeah. So that was what my life looked like. And I had found a beautiful soul to partner with. And I'm still with him. And I feel really fortunate for that. And we were trotting along, but not mindlessly, really beautifully, and loving our work and our life. And I was on top of the world in some ways, and not

09:43
in riches or anything, but in meaning and beauty. Did you feel that? I mean, I know you're going to go into a certain... No, I don't think I felt it enough. No? Looking back? Yeah. I don't think I realized how sort of good I had it. Then I became pregnant with my third child and I was on top of the world I knew for that because I had gone through years and years of infertility and to get to this point of having three children felt like a monumental milestone.

10:13
And I appreciated every second of that. But as I was nine months pregnant with her a month before the delivery, I received news that my second child, who was barely three at the time, had a degenerative and fatal illness. And it's Duchenne muscular dystrophy, which is like an ALS in children and young boys. And you know, Matt, it was that moment of, I fight. I mean, I fight back.

10:40
There was nothing to fight for. You know, even the doctor said, which by the way, I'm a physician, any doctors out there don't ever say this, but the doctor said to me, you know, I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do. And from his contrived narrow lens, that's true, right? It was a fatal illness, but I didn't think, I think those are very powerless words. There was nothing left to fight for. And I wondered, how am I going to do this? You know, and I knew I could kind of muddle through.

11:09
But I didn't want to muddle. I wanted to thrive and I wanted to have joy. And at that moment, I really didn't know how that would ever happen again. So getting this news of the diagnosis, which sounds very, maybe, coming from a textbook perspective, possibly, as that doctor, not from a human-to-human conversation, but rather just like very, here's the.

11:38
the textbook response, you know, there's nothing left in the book, the book. I think so, yeah. I mean, I would say it was a doctor to human conversation, because even though I am a doctor, in that moment, I was just a mother whose dreams were shattered. Right, but he wasn't, he was, he did it feel like this? Was there sympathy, empathy? Was there any kind, or was it very just matter of fact? No, there was feeling and definitely he felt hopeless, which wasn't a good feeling. But

12:07
I guess the reason I'm nurturing people to not say that if they're in that professional role is that, you know, there is always something we can do. And that's where I stand now to tell you that. But at that moment, he made me believe there was nothing left to do. And I don't mean a cure. What time period was this? This was 14 years ago. 14 years ago, which I think, and I don't know anything about the medical field or space or how people operate in that space.

12:37
Fortunate, I guess in a sense that I haven't really had to deal with much of that in my life I mean besides losing my grandmother to cancer and learning that stuff. I didn't have a lot of that But I also think in my own like not medical but healing journey 14 years ago compared to now Is quite different in the in the way people talk about things in the way people approach things was

13:05
If you look back on that moment now, surface level, do you feel that that approach was very typical of the time? You know, in which a mother would receive something like that. It wasn't like what you do now with integrative things and people weren't going on the edge or pushing past the edge, but rather like these are the typical things and this is all we can do. Yeah, I mean.

13:28
That's a really good question. I think it's yes and no. I think, yes, it's very typical and I think people are more open that there are more ways to do things now. And at the same time, medical education and training in how to deliver this kind of destructive, tragic news has not advanced much other than the residents I teach or the- People that have experienced it. Yeah, I mean, we're taught in medicine, in medical school, not to give our patients false hope.

13:57
not to give them a sort of rosy picture that isn't available. Now you can see the logic in that. You can see the truth in that. I mean, you don't want people to think there's something that isn't there. At the same time, and I talk about this in my book, the same time, hope is bold action innate in our body. It's why we get up every day. It's not ever false.

14:22
I was taught by a mentor later, never is hope false. And I believe that now because to hope for a better tomorrow, you must acknowledge that today is not okay. That today is not what you want. That today is lesser than you hope for. And so to get up again tomorrow and face the day is hope in action in our bodies. And in that moment, I think a better, more truthful thing to say would have been something like...

14:51
I am so sorry there is nothing in my medical toolkit that I can offer, but what I can offer is that there is always a way to live with gratitude, love, and dignity, and to have a life that feels good for you and your family. And I want you to know that now. Well, let's just put that in the capsule and share with everyone in every field because I think there's so much power in that.

15:19
And I think you do, you see the hopelessness a lot when people get these diagnoses. And with your child getting this, was it something that was building? Like, did you know something was coming? Or was this like out of the blue kind of moment for you? Because you're describing this life of fulfillment, I guess, maybe, or you were checking the boxes, whatever your boxes were, I don't know if you subscribe to.

15:48
what I did of society telling you you had to have X, Y, and Z. But it sounded like you were fulfilled and grateful for the experiences. Were things leading to that? They were challenging with him. He wasn't leading up to his normal developmental milestones. And I knew in my heart something was wrong, but nobody really understood what. And it seemed like it could be something you quote, unquote, grow out of or get better from, you know, that you could.

16:16
Just because you walked late doesn't mean it's a big deal or and on and on. And I always knew something was wrong, but you don't want to believe it, you know? Because it's probably weird too, as being a medical professional with all that knowledge and understanding and whatnot, but then also just being a caring mother, you have these opposing forces almost at times where you're like, I know.

16:44
but I don't want to know, or I have this hope. So you kind of felt that way, but then you got this news. And was it more the diagnosis or the way that that was delivered to you of like, there's no hope kind of feeling that really shifted you? No, it was the diagnosis. It was the diagnosis, because there's over 80 types of muscular dystrophy, but this is the most severe and the only one that's fatal. And so to get that kind of diagnosis is just...

17:13
a blow beyond a mother's understanding, right? That this young child who's barely three, you know, will lose his ability to walk and then to move his arms and then to breathe or his heart will fail. You know, I mean, to understand that kind of prognosis is kind of incomprehensible. Right. Because it also shatters the dream that you had for him. I'm sure as a parent, I'm not a parent, but I'm sure a lot of parents...

17:43
kind of start to imagine what their kids' lives will be at certain milestones and the experiences together. So I'm sure that that's also like a grieving or a loss. Did you experience that kind of grief? That's a big part of the spiritual journey, yes. And even though what I tell people now and what I've said for a long time, but what took me a while to get to is that...

18:08
he shattered every dream I had as a mother for not only him, but our family as a whole. And yet the dreams that he remade for me are actually far bigger than those small dreams. I mean, I'm not dismissing the dreams of your child being on an athletic team or going to college, or I love all that. I think it's beautiful. And at the same time,

18:35
They were dreams that were not as big as the ones I have now that he's made, which are that he has taught me unconditional. I thought as a parent, I knew unconditional love. I didn't know it till he taught it to me. He has taught me presence. He has taught me to unattach from those kinds of dreams, you know, because the truth is as a parent, I went straight into dream mode, what I hope for, for all my children.

19:02
And there is nothing wrong with that. And at the same time, when we attach too strongly to those, we can bring on suffering for ourselves. And for the child. Yes. Just from a child perspective, there's a lot of pressure in a parent or a family member's dreams for you. So I think that's maybe even healthy in a way that.

19:27
we kind of deconstruct some of those dreams or like keep them to ourselves a little bit so that our children or offspring or the people around us can create what their dreams are or what they can do. Yeah, and I find myself, you know, my oldest is 20 now and I find myself, my conditioned self coming back sometimes when he speaks of how he's not sure what he wants to do or he doesn't like class or something like that.

19:55
I find my conditioned self kind of like a moment of like, oh, is he going to be okay? Or is he going to figure out what he wants? You know, and it's hard to have a mother who like, I think I did the best thing in the world professionally. I think I've fulfilled every purpose I had kind of thing. Like, you know, how do you live up to that? And so I don't, that comes for a flicker. And then I'll tell you, it goes right away. And what comes for me is, and I tell him, I say, just lean into what gives you joy.

20:25
and the rest will unfold itself. And I know in my heart that although he may struggle by definition of what somebody else may think is success, or he may succeed as what someone else thinks is struggle, it's all his own, right? It's not mine to contrive or figure out. So that's a gift to live in that, you know? So when you got this diagnosis, like what changed when you walked out that...

20:55
door. You know, because you have this, I don't want to say idyllic, but you have this life that felt fulfilled. And then you walk out that door and it feels like a different life. Very. Well, that moment when the doctor said that was actually two days later. What we got first was a phone call and my husband called me at work and told me to come home. I describe it in much more detail in the book, but it was quite a scary day when he called me.

21:24
And when he called me and I came home, we knew that he had something, we knew he had muscular dystrophy and because of the blood test, we knew it could be really bad. We didn't know how bad till the Monday, I'm sorry, two days after that. But when we got that news, I'll tell you what happened was actually, I mean, I'm not saying this to contrive, now I'm realizing it was a life shift moment is that we had our heads slung in our heart on a...

21:52
porch bench together, our kids were at school. We were sort of like, how did this happen? What happened? What kind of hit us today? And we found ourselves invariably, inevitably doing the why me, why us, why Zubin, that's my son, why, why, why. And there was a moment in there that was the life shift, honestly, which it doesn't mean it all got solved or my jerk.

22:20
You know, my journey took years, but what I'm saying is there was an igniting moment where one of us, we still to this day kind of lovingly argue about who said it first. You're going to say it's you. Yeah. And I don't know, actually, but we said, why not me? Why not us? Why not Zubin? And it wasn't this moment of like...

22:45
What the hell, we're all gonna suffer, let's do ours, or nothing like that. But it was a moment of, why can't we live this life and figure out how to still teach our family that life is more than this smaller story that we may have been given or told? Why not us? And why not us? Because are we that arrogant to think that only humans who deserve quote unquote suffering get it? No.

23:13
We've never thought that. So when we say why me, we don't mean to, but as humans, what we're really trying to rationalize is how we could have deserved something. And we realized in that moment, we don't deserve this and no one does. We're just human like everyone else. And we also deserve to figure this out. Then our heads went back into our hearts. We cried a lot more and the days got harder and harder. I'm not gonna paint a picture that isn't true.

23:42
But what I'm going to tell you is that moment was everything for us. And it still lives as the defining moment for the two of us as our parenthood. For me, it was what I call in the book actually an embodied micro resistance. It was a moment where I in my body felt, no, I have something to fight for. It's myself. It's my family. I mean, that's so powerful. And something, this is going to sound so terrible.

24:12
something that I personally can't understand. Like it's so, you know, and I think there's a lot of people in my position where, and it's probably societal conditioning of some sort of this, like you said, we like, how did I earn this? How did I deserve this particular thing? And having experienced, you know, depression and not clinically, but you know, that feeling depressive moments in my life and anxiety.

24:41
I personally never had those light moments. It always felt to me so much easier to stay in it, to stay in that feeling because it was like weirdly comforting. Like it's so weird to say out loud and to say for everyone to listen to, but it was like, I just can't, I wish, I wish I could have a light bulb, not a light bulb, but a light.

25:11
in the dark, you know, that there's something there. And I know you said it wasn't like, as soon as that happened, everything was roses and our lives were back to wonderful. But you have that thing to hold onto. Like, oh yeah, I can. That me inside is holding this torch and we can light this place up and we can go the direction we need to. I know you're not ready yet, but I'm still here kind of feeling.

25:36
Yeah, I think that's true. And I also think though, it's a yes and that, I think those light moments just allow the darkness to be what it needs to be. And so it isn't that they fully light it up, but that it makes the darkness more, not understandable, but more comfortable. Because you can see that your humanness is still there. I just, I mean, I commend you for one.

26:05
remembering that moment, right? Because in such, I'm sure there were a lot of things that happened after that that you had to go through and probably fight for and fight through, which we'll talk about in a minute. But I'm curious is earlier in your life and your upbringing, did your parents instill things like this in you? Did you feel like your upbringing was supportive in this way that there is a light side to everything? Or was it a fight growing up? Because

26:33
I feel like if you're not taught these things, it's really hard to manifest them. Yeah. I think that, yes, and I think that- It's a great doctor of you. I know, right? It's just that there's no binary in this, in anything. And so my parents say that I'm nothing like them. So that's one thing that they say. And my culture is very woe is me. So-

27:00
especially for a mother of a suffering child, I should not have joy. I should not be reveling in my life. That feels like you're not a good mother. So I have that conflicting, limiting narrative coming at me. But what I do have is what I believe is sort of epigenetics in my ancestral DNA. And I talk about this in the book is that, you know, trauma lives in our body. We know that

27:30
Bessel van der Kolk and others. And that's beautiful that we understand that, but it really does happen. So my parents have lived through the partition of India. They've persevered through migrating to another country with nothing and really trying to make it on their own, having no family support, really being outsiders. I'm sick American, so we wore turbans. The boys in my family wear turbans. I have long hair and we were ostracized.

27:58
and harassed and teased our whole life and even death threats, everything. But I think that perseverance and persistence is part of my DNA. And even in my faith, there's a phrase that I talk about that's called Tcherdikala. And it really at its heart means eternal optimism no matter what. Finding

28:22
the power of your joy no matter what, because our faith and our people have been persecuted through centuries. So I think there's something in my DNA that knows that, you know, you just keep fighting. But I did have conflicting messages and I talk about how I think we all have our own limiting beliefs around joy, that we don't deserve it, or that we weren't allowed to have it. It might be frivolous or luxurious, self-indulgent.

28:51
Or in my case, not respectable for a mother to do that. And so, or how we shush, shush tragedy in my family. Like we don't wanna talk about it. We don't wanna make people upset. And that's not how I've chosen to rewrite the story. I'm rewriting the story differently because I don't want my children to not be able to talk about this. You said you can't understand. I can't even understand what my two other children are living through.

29:21
I've never been a sibling to someone who will die. And I've never watched a sibling decline and die. So their path is very intense and they're walking it and it's not easy. And I do what I can to shepherd them through that, but I don't understand it fully. All I can do is try to connect to it. It's fascinating and inspiring.

29:50
So interesting. I mean, it makes sense why you lean towards social justice, why you lean towards advocacy for, and you said it yourself, people that are perceived the underdog or someone that doesn't have whatever available to them because of their privilege or lack of privilege, whatever that may be. It makes sense because of your family and the things your family experienced. And then I think it also makes sense as to why you would.

30:19
want to have that light to why you would want to fight what the system tells you is the definitive answer. Right? Is that, you know? Yeah, I think you're completely astute on both those things. And I think that also, you know, where I've come to in my life is what else? What choice do I have? You know, I'm not a superhero. I am just a human, a mother and a human who wants to feel better.

30:47
who wants to know that life has more goodness than those darkest moments I've experienced and still experience. So how did you move forward through, I mean, you said you had that light, it was there, it was something you could hold onto, but things got much darker and much more challenging. But that was probably like your anchor of some sort, that light. That was an anchor. And then...

31:11
You know, I really just basically went through a lot of darkness and decided, I need to figure this out. You know, I need to figure out how I'm going to do this. And I turned to tools that that's how Joy Is My Justice, the book came is I also work with people with very complex mental health and trauma histories and around the world actually. And I have witnessed and

31:36
cultivated an understanding of the capacity of the human spirit and what we are capable of. And... It's a lot. It's a lot, right? I mean, you know, you lost your mother at such a young age. But I compare it to other people's stories. I'm like, my story is nothing compared to some things that people go through. But we shouldn't compare. So I think you're right. And I also think like my story is not the worst story in the world. There are many worst stories.

32:06
And mine is also not the easiest, just like yours, you could say that. But I think when we get into the hierarchy of suffering, we then give it too much power again. And so we've created another power system. And if we can get out of that and just know that there are worse ways to suffer, and there are ways to be at more ease, what we have is what we have. And now the question is, how do we live that with full intention and authenticity? And...

32:35
I think that one of my missions is to show that joy is very different than happiness. I thought I couldn't be happy again. I think that may be true, Matt. I think most of my days aren't happy. I have happiness, but it comes and goes. Many days, it's a dip and valley kind of experience with my son, and we're in a very hard place right now.

33:03
The constructs of my life are not happy, yet my life is very joyful. And there's a very big difference there. And I think when we don't understand that, we get in the risk of, if anyone listening can resonate with this, of feeling broken if we aren't able to, quote unquote, hack ourselves to happiness or get to those, quote unquote, positive vibes, which I think are toxic and harmful, to be quite honest.

33:28
And so there's actually neuroscience of why they're toxic and harmful. And what I really want people to understand is that joy is a deeply embodied experience. It is a human right. Joy was always with us. No one gives it to us and no one takes it away. It lives right in the same deep well as our capacity for pain. It's where we live for meaning, love, connection. It's why we feel so much pain because of our potential for joy.

33:57
And that is very different than the cognitive evaluation of whether our lives are happy or not. Happiness is beautiful. I'll take it any day. Any day I get it, I welcome it. How would you describe that? The happiness. Like what would you describe as happiness? Like my kid started school last week and my daughter likes her teachers. Thank God. Okay. Compared to a joyful moment of... Compared to a moment of my son who we're speaking of or my daughter.

34:25
coming home and telling me that something really moved them in their heart. And even though it made them sad, it brought them to an understanding of what someone else's life might be like and helped them open to their own pain. I mean, that is joyous as a mother, but it's not happy. I mean, there's, you know what I mean? There's more of an element of fulfillment of some sort in the joy? Of the meaning than the connection, right? So it's how I can have...

34:54
and many times caregiver exhaustion and fatigue. And then someone will reach out and connect with me and support me. And I know that I'm held and that I'm loved and not alone. That is a joyful moment that is different than the happiness of a good nap that I finally got. Which is also there's overlap, right? There's overlap. I want both. But but even if my day can't be happy, I know.

35:23
I know every day I can touch a moment of joy, just a moment. Even in the days where I've cried all day and thought I was in the darkest place, what I try to remember is that if I'm feeling all of this range of emotions, I haven't lost yet. I'm still in my humanity. And that's a moment of joy. Do you see what I'm saying? It's really deep, literally and figuratively. I mean, I feel like... And I think it's also so...

35:54
It's like so not what the world is putting out there for us in a way, right? I feel like it's very, like the world is very performative, maybe not as much as it used to be. And a lot of that performative nature is in that happy. It's in that happy spot. And I kind of, if we're gonna really minimize this comparison, I think of this podcast. And I think of these conversations that are often very hard to have, but they're so very important. And I think that's...

36:24
in which I dip into that joy well. Like, I could leave these conversations and have to literally go take a nap because it was just very overwhelming. But I feel like that dips into the joy part of my life is having these conversations. Whereas happiness would be like, oh, that episode did really well on the charts. Like, cool, but that didn't do anything for the joy part.

36:51
There was no overlap in that one. But I feel like that's how I'm minimizing this comparison. But it makes a lot of sense in how that well inside keeps you going and knows when I still have hope, there's still joy. When I still have all these range of emotions, there's still that element of joy in there. Exactly. Exactly agreed. And I think, you know, I mean,

37:20
I agree that all the conversations I've heard you have on this podcast are touching that deep well. And I'm thinking about one in particular that I reached out to you about, the one with Newton Chang. And what I think was so poignant and joyful about that really difficult conversation, not difficult, but deep conversation, was that all those people at the workplace who felt touched by Newton's vulnerability.

37:47
by his avowing of his mental health struggles. There's nothing sort of that you could say is happy about that at the workplace, that interaction. But look at how much joy was created by him avowing his struggle and allowing someone else to feel theirs a little more deeply. And so there's this way that I just thought that was such a beautiful conversation. And I thought what he was doing at work.

38:15
was so simple, really, not easy, but so simple in that he was just being human. I think that it is why actually many, many people tell me in that vein of I can't understand, many people I hear often, Tanmeet, I just can't imagine what you're going through. I think that it's beautifully centered. It comes from a place of I would not act like I could step in your shoes, yet.

38:44
When I have the spiritual energy in the day, when I hear that, what I tell people back now is, I would encourage you to imagine. I would encourage you to imagine my pain because the more you imagine my pain, the more you'll know yours and the more we'll all connect at a deeper level. Because when people say, I can't imagine, all it does is put me in a more isolated form of grief.

39:11
And so it's not their fault. I don't feel any mal intention about it. But when I have the energy to give people a little sort of feedback on it, I do tell them because actually I think imagination is a bridge of justice. It allows us all to connect at a much deeper level. And so it is true that you and I cannot, I cannot understand my children's pain, but I can definitely try to imagine it.

39:39
You know, and the more I try, the more I want to tend to them. So the connection piece comes out. Imagination does that for us. So that's the deep well. Yeah. I mean, and it goes back to that conversation about Newton is he opened the door for everyone to allow themselves to think about their pain. Think about his pain. Think about how I've learned through this podcast that there's a lot more.

40:08
that we have in common, then we do have different. And a lot of it is in these harder, painful moments in which we either have to imagine or can exactly feel what the other person is feeling. And I think that it leads to a much deeper connection across the board, like you say. And it's like proof for me in this journey of the last year and a half or so of just really seeing that is that the more I share, the more deep some connections become.

40:38
And maybe on the flip side, the less connection I have with others that can't do that. Yeah, that's true. And that's just part of, I guess, growing up. It just took me so long to get here, but I'm so glad I'm here and I can live in pain and still know that there's hope that I'll get through that in some capacity. Yeah, exactly. And that I would say not only get through it, but that the pain is the living.

41:07
right, too, that we are in what we're in and that life is about living through all of this. It's not always easy or fun. I'm not trying to paint this rosy picture about it, but it is what makes us human, right? And so I am just guessing you get this a lot, but what I get a lot when people read my book or my blog or read my work, they will say, is it hard to be that vulnerable?

41:33
When you wrote your book, it was so deeply personal. It was hard to be so vulnerable. And it's funny, it's that kind of, maybe I would have asked somebody that question 20 years ago, maybe, maybe, but I think I just can't even get back there because now I just think...

41:54
I don't know any other way to be. I mean, because if I'm not, so I guess you would be the same, is that if I'm not vulnerable, and it doesn't mean I have to tell everybody my deepest secret or struggle, but if I'm not as vulnerable as I can be in a moment, then I'm not even sure what the connection is about. Like, what are we even talking about, right? No, I love it. I think it's so important and I encourage people. Some people just aren't ready. Some people have, you know, and it's just like you,

42:24
I'm here, I'm ready for you when you're ready to... It's hard. It's really hard to knock down that wall and then to start building it up in some way that's not really a wall, but maybe like a pass-through of some sort in which you can, you know, safely feel whatever you need to until you get to the place where it's like, here's my open book, here you go, everyone. I think that's a beautiful description of that. It's hard. I think it's hard until you do it and then you can't not do it.

42:54
I agree. What if you, I think you were about to ask me actually now I realized like how did I get past that wall? I wonder if people would imagine what it would be like if you just understood that what I understand now is that it was actually harder and more work to not go past the wall. And what I mean is, I will just use a mundane example.

43:18
When I've been in deep darkness or even clinical depression I've had and just deeply, deeply dark, to have someone say, how are you? And then for me to fake it and say, I'm fine or I'm good, actually feels felt as well in that moment. So hard, so exhausting. Then I have to put up a wall and I have to act like I'm something I'm not.

43:45
And so what would it be like for anyone listening who feels like it's hard to go past and be vulnerable? What I would say is if you would just test the waters, what I would start to do was say, people would say, how are you doing? How are you? And I would say, every day is a challenge. Actually every moment is a challenge, but I'm doing okay right now.

44:09
And then I would look at them and they'd kind of be like, oh God, that's not what I wanted. I was not prepared. I wasn't waiting for that. And so then they were sort of disarmed. Sometimes that goes well. Sometimes people just walk away. It really doesn't matter because the point is that I just said a truth. It doesn't have to be your whole truth. You don't have to stand there and cry all day with them and you don't have to tell them what you're deeply scared of. But what you can do is own to the fact that you're not doing as well as they think you're doing.

44:39
And if they're ready to talk about that, and what if they are and you're not, then all you have to do is say, I don't really want to talk about it, but thanks for asking and move on. And what I would say is try it out and see what it feels like to not hide all your truths. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A little bit of vulnerability at a time. It gets addictive is not the right word. But I do find if I'm if I'm struggling with something, my source is to just share it.

45:10
with someone, everyone, social media, because I know I'm not the only person feeling this way. And if there is some power in that connection, even if it's not a direct connection, even if it's someone out there is like, oh my God, I feel that way too. You somehow feel that. I don't know. It's just a very interesting process. And it's fascinating that you were able to get to that. And I mean, I guess it's not fascinating because I've heard your story, but I mean, I feel like...

45:40
It's admirable that you got to that, because I don't think we're taught, we're not taught any of this. We're not taught how to be, we're not taught to be how to be human. Honestly, we're kind of just taught to like, this is how we perform, and this is how people will respect you, and this is how people will like you, and you do all these things. And then some of us get sideswiped by something like your experience, and then you're like, oh, I can do this, I think. And then you just do it.

46:09
Like you just leaned into it. Did part of your healing come with what you do now? Like for others? I mean, you know, so I was already doing that. I was already about 12 years into my career and... But even the integrative and the psilocybin and all that stuff? Not the psychedelic work, but the integrative medicine. And I think that my work has always felt healing to me, thankfully. So that was something I lean more into. Because you're helping others? Yeah. Okay. Because...

46:38
I don't think I'm helping others. I think they're helping me. But I think because I... As like this podcast. Yeah. I'm using my work as always. What I did know from early on, which was a fortune for me to know this, is that my work has always been a fuel for my healing. And so that is why I've rarely burnt out because I don't look at it as all outward.

47:04
thing, I receive as much, if not more than I give. And for sure, my work became, I mean, Matt, you just can't, you can't deny that the more suffering you sit in, the more you're able to sit in other people's suffering. And so to be a physician who create from cradle to grave, delivering babies till people die, I've seen the vast array of suffering and

47:29
I will tell you, the more people are able to allow me into their suffering, the more healing it is for me. The more I can sit with someone and feel their pain, but then also one day hopefully feel their spark of healing, is just pure joy for me. And so there is a way that this work fuels my own work for sure. Is that how you got to you? Do you attribute that to...

47:59
your work practice? Do you attribute that to your partner? Do you attribute that to your children, to the specific child that we're talking about? What do you think, I mean, I'm guessing all of those pieces probably played, but what was the trigger point that led you into this? Because I can feel this joy despite the situation that's still ongoing.

48:27
Yeah, it's not despite it, it's because of. Because of, okay. Yeah, I would say that the way I got to it actually is, so many people would ask me that, that that's why I wrote this book. I'm not kidding. Because I realized, wow, we don't really have a way. People don't understand a way and I didn't either, so I made it up day by day. And it worked. It worked, but Joy Is My Justice is really about the fact that we all can feel that personal liberation.

48:56
And I can't tell you or anyone else what your path is, but I can give signposts and roadmaps that will allow you to find your path. And that's what I did for myself. And the way I did it was through powerful reclaiming of tools that have been, I think, whitewashed in the wellness world. So I do not think of gratitude and self-compassion or breath and movement or any of these things as whitewashed as they were presented to me. I think of them as

49:25
deep justice tools for reclaiming power and safety in my body. And it's not just I think of them, the science shows they are that. And so what I've done is really melded in this book, this sort of translatable neuroscience with the inspiring understanding of how humans use these tools, not to whitewash and contrive positivity out of pain, but to face their pain.

49:50
it's bad PR these tools have gotten. You know, like gratitude is just, you know, it's kind of like, oh God, be grateful for everything. And, you know, that's annoying and it's, it's harmful, really. But when we say, when we understand the science that gratitude actually is not about that, it's about looking at your life instead of looking away. It's about finding the core of the goodness that still lies in you.

50:17
or in this world even after you have suffered or been betrayed. It is about reclaiming power in your body. And when we understand that, then gratitude becomes a tool of justice. It does not become a tool of whitewashed wellness. Is that like, is your, what's your, this is, I don't even know how to ask this question. When you wake up in the morning, is there something you do to get you in the right space? Or are you just done this for so long that you just

50:47
No, this is how you dip into the well, and this is how you find your joy in the day, even if it's the hardest of days. Yeah, partly it's just become routine, but what I will tell you is I want people to understand it doesn't mean every day is quote unquote good or well, okay? I'm only human too. So what it does mean is that even on my darkest days...

51:14
Earlier, in the early part of this year, my son suffered a traumatic back injury that fractured his spine and I've never been so scared for him and it's been a scary 14 years. Yeah, I can imagine. I spent 12 hours in the ER with him, hearing him writhe in pain that no mother ever wants to hear and yet, I will tell you, even I cried that entire 12 hours. I felt scared the entire 12 hours.

51:40
I wondered how the hell I was going to do this anymore, that entire 12 hours. And I found moments of light and healing in these medical workers, these docs and nurses who were there for us. I found moments of love and connection that I had this partner who we could sit in this pain together and just that I had this kind of love and support. I found moments of joy when I...

52:08
I saw an old colleague I hadn't seen in the UK. I used to work in that ER. And I was so scared. And to have him see me like that felt vulnerable and unmasked and also felt so comforting. And I thought, how lucky am I that someone came to me to support me? I use these tools impeccably daily throughout. And they save me and also help me thrive. And they have become quite second nature. Yet I...

52:37
can wake up and get lost in a scrolling rabbit hole on my phone. Do you know what I mean? And like, so am I gonna tell you about some super morning routine? No, what I'm gonna tell you is that I have to return home to myself over and over and over, but that's the practice. It's not about perfecting it. It's not about being joyful all the time. It's about understanding that joy lives in me and waits for me and it will come back to me no matter what.

53:07
Yeah, and it sounds like it's an active process. It's something that you sometimes will do innately, and sometimes you will have to remind yourself that it's, okay, you've had your moment, you've had your situation, let's get back to our normal, how we wanna feel, how we want to, literally the word feel, not necessarily happy or any of those kind of things, but how would we want to feel? This whole conversation.

53:35
The only word that's sitting in my mind, I don't know why, but I see it on a blackboard in my mind, is the word vulnerability, in that everything that you've explained here sits in there, sits in that space of like, I can be broken, like it's possible, and that's okay. Because that makes me me, that makes me human, that gives me the ability to have the joy, the pain.

54:04
all the things that make me. So it just very much feels centered in this vulnerability, which is such a scary word for so many people. But me, this version of me feels so much power in that word. There's a lot of power in being vulnerable against societal expectations or norms or whatever people are telling us to do. And it's like...

54:31
That's how you find, or it sounds like, that's how you remind yourself of that joy that exists, is just by feeling, just being. Yeah, and I also get irritated, right? So like a couple of months ago, Congrats. Yeah, I was in a funk, and sort of just could not snap out of this funk, and then I was like, what? Come on, how are you in a funk? And then I thought, okay, where's your self-compassion? You're human. And...

55:00
But then I just said, I am in a funk. Like obviously I'm going. Yeah. And then I just felt into it and I let it be and it lasted longer than I would have liked, but it lasted as long as it needed to. Right. And I mean, believe me, some days I just want to stop being deep and I want to go, you know, like have a drink with someone and talk about nothing. But, but this is what gives me joy. Right. That's okay too. But, but this is where I live. You're right.

55:28
And I always tell people I don't swim in the shallows, like I just can't do it. No, I feel like I'm very similar. You know, what I've learned in this grief journey and closing the door on Juan and then having the opportunity, I say, to really be around my grandmother in her final years and final days and final hours and final minutes and seconds.

55:52
When people are facing something like that, that whole thing, I can't imagine XYZ. The only thing I can tell people now is, allow yourself to feel however you're feeling at any moment in time. And it's really served me well in moments of funks, like you say, it's like, I say it out loud, I'm in a funk. I tell the people around me, hey, I'm not feeling so hot. I'm kind of in a meh mood. I'm fine, but I'm gonna let this play out.

56:18
because something's happening, something's moving through, you know, and I honor that, I honor myself, and it's a good place to be in. And I feel like I understand you in that way of like, life is messy, life is really messy, but that can be okay at times too, because I think like you, you know, this allows us to dip into that joy, you know? Exactly. You know, I'm really, I know we're kind of getting close to the time, but.

56:46
Where does the psychedelics play into this? Does this play into your own personal journey or did you just feel there's another realm that we need, not realm, not in that way, but there's another space that we should be looking at for healing? Yeah, it's become another way to catalyze that joy. I mean, for me as well as for patients, it feels like I've taken care of such complex mental health addiction and trauma for over two decades that I have never felt so much hope, honestly. And...

57:15
I don't feel the medications we have are willfully inadequate. I don't think psychedelics are a magic cure for anything, but I do think there are potential for people to shift insight and perspective and find what they need to do or feel to get to a better place.

57:33
They're just, they're full circle for me. They bring together all my plant medicine, spiritual work, trauma work, integrative, you know, it's all coming together, the social justice to fight for access for psychedelics and really to fight against the racist propaganda that suppressed them in the first place. So it feels full circle. It's like the final puzzle piece. Maybe not the final, but. Yeah, I mean, who knows? I myself have gained much healing and insight as well.

58:01
But that came later in my journey because I'm one of those kids who grew up with the fried egg on drugs kind of thing. And, you know, I was like, I'm not messing up my brain. And now I realize that was racist propaganda. But whatever. I'm back. We can learn again. That's a whole other battle that you have to... Yeah, no, I asked that because I think like my fourth episode, super early in this journey, I spoke with a friend of mine who I'm sure isn't the right word, but essentially got rid of.

58:29
her chronic PTSD through, not micro, but like proper, like read all the research, chose, also weirdly, this psilocybin fell into her lap at the right moments in her life as well. Like people randomly had it and she was like, okay, I've been doing research on it. I'm gonna measure, I'm gonna weigh, I'm gonna do the proper protocol and whatever. And she found a way to completely eliminate that. And you know, it was like the first time she shared that out loud.

58:59
Because there is such a, or maybe not as much anymore, but there's such a kind of a stigma against people. I mean, she was doing the research. She was following, it wasn't like she was going to some party and figuring it. She was really being safe and following the protocols with it and essentially eliminated the chronic PTSD that she was facing because of that and because of the attention that she put towards it. So I see...

59:28
firsthand through a friend, the personal improvement in her life and the joy that she's able to find now because of that. It's so powerful. And in the same way we've talked about, I mean, holding space and guiding people through those journeys has been a deep well of joy for me. It really just lights me up and it's a great gift. I feel very, very fortunate.

59:56
I like to bring these conversations to a close in a way that, like, if you, this version of you, knowing what you know now, could go and sit with you and your husband on that bench, is there anything that you would wanna say that would help you guys on your journey? Yeah, I mean, I think I would tell her and him that... you can be okay.

01:00:25
that this too can be okay, that this life can be all right no matter what. Cause it felt like it had ended. Yeah. And it's funny, I've heard you ask people that question, you know, on your podcast and I thought, oh, he's gonna ask me that. And then today I heard it and I could not remember a thing that I thought of. So it just really came to me now that you are okay.

01:00:53
I really, truly badly wanted someone to tell me that it's all gonna be all right and no one could, and no one can, but I could have. So I would go back and say that. This is super weird to put out into the universe, but I wonder if you did. I wonder if you did in some way, if you were that light, or if you were that why not us voice.

01:01:22
Like, where did that come from, right? I know, it's like time travel here or something, like some weird universal thing, this is totally not me, see what you did to me. I know, but yeah, you're right. You know, if you're sitting in the darkness and suddenly some kind of light comes out, like, where does that come from? I think a lot of people can relate to your story and find, I don't know if inspiration is the right word, but like hope, I think maybe hope is the right word or...

01:01:51
an understanding. I really like what you had to say about happiness versus joy and really finding what is that joy in our lives? Because I simplified it down to this podcast, but I truly feel like there is that difference. There is that difference in feeling. And I thank you for opening my eyes to that because I think that will move forward with me in this journey, not just with the podcast, but just in life through...

01:02:21
As I continue to heal, the things that I didn't know still needed to be healed. I know. It's forever like, oh, I thought I closed that door. And like you say, when you work with your patients, a lot of it is helping you and maybe even more so than you're helping them, like you pointed out. And so I think we're never really done, right? Never done it. That's why they call it a practice. Well, fair.

01:02:48
Thank you for being a part of the LifeShift Podcast and for sharing your story. And I just really appreciate your vulnerability and your joy and some of the happy parts. Oh, no, I really enjoyed this. It was a deep well of joy to have this kind of organic conversation with you that really moves the sort of concept in my body even deeper, right? And so every time I can do that, it's really a beautiful gift.

01:03:14
Oh, thank you. If people want to connect with you, we'll definitely give all the links that you say, but what's the best way to like get in your orbit, check out your book, do all those things? What's the best way? Yeah, I mean, the best place is on my website, which has my book and bonuses and a joy quiz if you want, which I actually really love. I just made it to get people a portal into where their next step might be. And I'm most active on Instagram and I love hearing, I have...

01:03:41
found so much joy in connecting with people on there that it surprises me, because I don't love social media. But I must love it, because it's really been fun. And I love hearing from people, if they had a takeaway from this episode, I love hearing that. Just people reading the book and reaching out, it's a beautiful thing.

01:03:58
Well, now that we've had our conversation, I'm able to read your book because it's like one of my rules. I don't read any books or learn anything about it. This is a risky, vulnerable podcast in that way. For who? Me? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for just sharing you with the world. I think it's super important. Thank you so much. Yeah. And if you are listening and you're enjoying the episode, I'd love it if you just share it with someone that you think might need to.

01:04:27
hear what we talked about today or this episode, any episode, the show, whatever it may be, helps a little indie podcaster like myself. So thank you again, and we'll see you next week with a brand new episode.

01:04:50
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com