Susan Lieu Breaks Family Silence Through Art and Healing: The Weight of Grief

Susan Lieu00:00:00

So I'm in sixth grade, and I really want to do volleyball tryouts. And my mom says, no, we don't have the money for it. And I'm trying to sneak out one morning.I'm trying to make an American sandwich instead of my Vietnamese sandwich so I don't get made fun of. And I bump into her in the kitchen. She knows what I'm gonna go do. I fess up, and she says, I can't do it. And then I say, well, fine, then I hate you.And I saunter off. I go to school, I go to volleyball tryouts. And when I come back home, my brother is home from college, and it's a Thursday.He shouldn't be home on a Thursday. And he said, go pack your bags. Mom's in a coma.And what I didn't realize is that morning she went in for plastic surgery, a tummy tuck, the narrowing of her nostrils, and a chin implant. And two hours into the surgery, she lost oxygen to her brain.The doctor waited 14 minutes before he made the 911 call, and it's usually after four minutes. Without oxygen, you have permanent brain damage.

Matt Gilhooly00:01:02

Today's guest is Susan Lieu. She is a Vietnamese American playwright. She's a performer, and she is an author of a book that has landed at the top of so many lists for 2024.Susan's story is one of resilience, healing, and really, the courage to reclaim her own narrative after quite an unimaginable loss. At 11 years old, her life really changed forever when her mother passed away after a botched plastic surgery.Throughout the conversation, we really talk about how Susan navigated these complexities of grief and these cultural expectations, plus the family dynamics while growing up as the child of Vietnamese refugees.Through her groundbreaking one woman show, 140lbs, how Beauty killed My Mother, and her debut memoir, Susan has turned her personal tragedy into a powerful tool for connection and healing.Together, we talk about how she found her voice, confronted intergenerational trauma, and inspired others to really embrace vulnerability and the power of storytelling.Whether you've experienced loss, struggled with your own identity, or are just simply looking for inspiration to live as authentically as possible, I think you will enjoy this conversation.So without further ado, here is my conversation with Susan as she shares her story of finding, finding purpose, honoring her mother's legacy, and really creating ripples of change through the power of art and truth. I'm Matt Gilhooley, and this is the Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends.Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Susan. Hello, Susan.

Susan Lieu00:02:49

Greetings.

Matt Gilhooly00:02:51

Greetings.I like that usually people are like, hi, but I like greetings because that's usually what I say to people via text when someone's like, hey, Matt, greetings.

Susan Lieu00:03:00

Yeah. Or. Or if, like, you're abducted by aliens.

Matt Gilhooly00:03:03

Oh, you could do that.

Susan Lieu00:03:04

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:03:05

I hope that never happens. Well, it is 2025. Things are a little crazy, so anything could happen. Anything can happen. And maybe that's more welcome these days for some of us.Anyway, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast. I. I want to shout out our mutual friend Michelle Glovac for connecting us. What a gem.She was on the Life shift podcast about 152 years ago telling her story. And that's how we've been connected since. I help edit some of her episodes. So she's a gem. And so I want to say hi to Michelle.

Susan Lieu00:03:34

Hey, Michelle.

Matt Gilhooly00:03:36

And so people are probably tuning in to hear you. They maybe have never heard of the Life Shift podcast, so maybe I can tell them a little bit. This show stems from my own personal experience.When I was 8, my mom was killed in a motorcycle accident. And at that time my parents were divorced.My dad lived about a thousand miles away from where I lived with my mom full time, and I was visiting my dad for the summer and my mom was going on a motorcycle trip with her boyfriend. I fought her to not go, but I was 8. So who listens to an 8 year old?And I was probably just throwing a temper tantrum at the time, but I was visiting my dad and I got picked up early from school one day or summer camp one day and my dad had to sit me down and tell me the hardest words he's ever had to say out loud and tell me that my mom had died in a motorcycle accident.And it was like this line in the sand moment in which everything that I had dreamed for my life, everything my dad had dreamed, everyone in my family had dreamed for me, was no longer a possibility because everything had changed so much. And this was like late 80s, early 90s.Nobody was really talking about a child and grief and recovery and all these things that come along with, like being a full fledged human. So nobody talked about it. And so I assumed that I had it to be perfect so that if I was perfect, my dad wouldn't leave like my mom left.In my small brain, my mom left me. And so the whole time I was like, do other people have this like, singular moment that maybe like totally shifted everything in their life.And so now I get this opportunity, I say, a healing opportunity, to speak to hundreds of people about these pivotal moments.Not all trauma induced, maybe some positive in other ways, but I get this opportunity to learn from how we as humans can be resilient or move through moments or feel very similar, even though our experiences are so different. So that being said, I'm just so honored that you want to share your story in this way with me.

Susan Lieu00:05:35

Thanks for having me. And there's so many parallels to our.

Matt Gilhooly00:05:38

Story and it's, it's, you know, it's so like I look back, I don't know. If you look back, we'll get into the details of your story and see how similar they are.But I don't know, if you look back at the time period in the 80s, in the 90s, experiencing trauma that you experienced and seeing now from this perspective of 2025 and going, oh, man, I wish someone had just opened that door or allowed this, that or the other. And then, I don't know, I go down this spiral of like, where would I be had those opportunities been afforded.

Susan Lieu00:06:12

To me, which then becomes a nightmare. You'd be not talking about your trauma publicly.

Matt Gilhooly00:06:17

What would I do? Yeah, I would have, would have unpacked it a long time ago.So I say all that to say that every conversation that I have on this show heals some part of that eight year old in me.That when I started this show at like 40, I didn't realize I still needed to be healed, you know, and it's just such a lovely opportunity to connect with other humans that I might never interact with ever in my life. And so I'm just really grateful for you and all the other guests to just want to do this and sit here with me.

Susan Lieu00:06:49

So thank you a hundred.

Matt Gilhooly00:06:52

Before we get into your, your story and your pivotal moment, maybe you can tell us a little bit about Susan in 2025. Like, how do you identify?

Susan Lieu00:07:00

Yeah, I'm a Vietnamese American playwright, performer and author and mother. I live in Seattle, Washington, and I'm really trying to get better at my TRX straps.

Matt Gilhooly00:07:11

You know, like, as long as you secure them.

Susan Lieu00:07:14

Yeah, as long as you secure them. I'm a almost 40 woman trying to figure out what rules. I want to write my own life to have satisfaction and peace.So I'm just kind of at a turning point where I'm like, I'm over the hill. Well, let me stop listening to my like, childhood conditioning and let me listen to me. So that's where I'm at.

Matt Gilhooly00:07:38

That's a challenge. Are you finding that challenging or freeing?

Susan Lieu00:07:42

It's just a muscle. And it's like the more I gotta practice in really small ways and then I'm getting better and better.And I'm working with a coach right now and, and she helps me just, just even a weekly touch point. I verbalize my wins and I'm like, those were wins.Those were wins, you know, and it's, it's, it's a very interesting time for me because last year, 2024, when my memoir published, it was a really incredible year, accolades wise. And I was burnt out and stressed and I got really sick.And actually no accolade was enough because I could always point to the next thing that I didn't have. And so I got myself really sick last year.And I am actually very healthy right now in this moment because I also don't find achievement as sexy as I used to.

Matt Gilhooly00:08:29

That's big. That's really hard.I often talk to people about kind of what I've called the checklist life of like, I just needed to do this and then once I do that, I should do the next thing because that one is going to bring me success or happiness. But wait a second, that didn't. I got to go to the next one and it just became this like. And I was like, where did this checklist come from?Like, these aren't things I want to do. These are the things that I assumed other people wanted me to do. They were just, you know, that checklist that we were all following.So I really relate with that. And I would say in my 40s too, I've, I've come to the point in which I don't care as much.That sounds really bad to say, but I don't care as much about how other people feel about how I feel. You know, Whereas before I felt like I had to project that I was always happy or I was always winning or whatever it may be.So I welcome you to this, this journey in your life and this part of your journey because as you, as you say, you're already seeing these little wins, which is probably a really great feeling for you.

Susan Lieu00:09:34

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:09:35

So let's get into your story that will probably find some parallels. Maybe you can paint the picture of your life leading up to where you want to center this conversation around that life shift moment.

Susan Lieu00:09:46

Yeah.My parents were Vietnamese refugees, came over to the Bay area in the 80s, and I'm about 9, 10, 11 years old and living in a four bedroom house with 13 relatives. And so at one point I'm like, there's like two twin size beds and it's my aunt, it's me and my sister.So my mom had, my mom and dad had come over as boat people.And then after we got off welfare, started sponsoring everyone over and everyone who came over worked in our nail salons and we had two of them and my mother was the North Star and she called all the shots and we all obeyed. There was karaoke on Sundays and it was Vietnam, like Vietnamese language all the time.My grandma would always like say all these crazy things to me and I was always doing the wrong thing and my Vietnamese wasn't Vietnamese enough. And at school I wasn't American enough. And I was like, okay, there's no daycare, there's no summer camp, it's work in the nail salon.So as early as six years old, I have been working in my parents nail salon with my sister. And that all comes to a head at my life shift moment.

Matt Gilhooly00:10:51

I mean this, this upbringing is so unique to someone like me who comes from a very small family. Looking back on that or remembering in those moments, was that an enjoyable period?Cause I know you mentioned some like, challenges in school versus home, but did you like having everyone around?

Susan Lieu00:11:09

I mean, yeah, the I, I am a extreme extrovert. And so for me it's like it, it felt so good.And to this day, if I'm not constantly in community or going to community events, there's a part of me that feels empty. And I, I, I really want to start Super Soul Sundays.S O U P E R where I make a big pot of soup every Sunday or once a month and have people over because there's so much beauty in that communion and just rubbing up against people and supporting each other.And so I do miss that in part of my childhood where there was always someone to take care of me or yell at me, to like get me in line to figure out how to, you know, clean the rice better or wash the dishes better or do whatever. I always felt like I had my tribe around me.

Matt Gilhooly00:11:53

Yeah. And for me it sounds so foreign. It was just me. I was an only child, my parents were divorced.And people even to this day are like, you want to play a game? I'm like, I don't like games. Like, I didn't grow up with people to play games with. And so it was, it's like fascinating to me.Whereas I'm like, I love my alone time.Like, I really like, I can, I love the people time, but I Also need that recharge time of, like, this is where I can find communion with myself to figure out my thoughts and stuff. So that's. I mean, I love that you loved it, though, because I. I could also see the other side, where someone would be like, just let me out of here.

Susan Lieu00:12:30

I mean, I gotta say, though, growing up Vietnamese is like elders. And I was the youngest of four. And then there's my aunts, my grandparents, and my parents. Like, elders are always right, you know?So there's also this. Maybe it wasn't like a idyllic childhood. Like, there was always, like, I couldn't express myself or if I was very expressive. That was.Vietnamese girls don't do that. And there was a lot of expectations to be perfect. And yes, you know, you had to get an A.Otherwise you get split, spanked, or yelled at or banished or you lose privileges immediately. So there was also all of that, too.

Matt Gilhooly00:13:03

And is it also doubly challenging in, like, going to school and seeing other people have different type of family environments? Is that, like, is there a challenge in that? Or. Oh, this is ignorance right now.

Susan Lieu00:13:17

Playing I grew. I grew up in Santa Rosa, so my peers were mostly white. I. I remember I would be like, oh, my God, you have fruit snacks.Oh, my God, you have American food. Oh, my God, there's sleepovers. What is all. What, you get your own birthday party. You don't have to ask for it.Like, there was all these other things that I found fascinating about American culture that I wanted. And then my. My parents would be like, we don't have money for that, or, what. What are you going to do when you sleep over at someone's house?You know?And it was just like, oh, so I think that there was this drive to assimilate as new refugees into this country and don't get in trouble and don't rock the boat. But then there was also this push and pull of like, oh, don't get too Americanized now. What do you think you're doing?So again, it's like this, like, insider, outsider position, where in a way, I always felt like I was always an outsider wherever I was. And that was the difficult thing, because you're still a kid, you still want to belong.

Matt Gilhooly00:14:16

Yeah, I don't think you understand either. You don't understand why there are these or not you in particular. But as a child, you don't really understand that there are multiple cultures.And, like, I mean, maybe I'm speaking for myself because growing up in Massachusetts, it was like, I was only around White people that look like me, you know?And when I moved to Georgia and when I moved to Florida, there were diverse communities, and it was like, oh, there are other people out here that aren't just me. So I can imagine as a young child that. That you have this. This confusion as. Or maybe you don't do.Like, is it weird to know that other people don't live like you?

Susan Lieu00:14:56

I mean, I didn't think about that.It was more like, gosh, I'd like to have their full house parents, you know, where the mom was around and she would listen to your feelings and she would do what you wanted, you know? Like, my parents were too busy. They were working all the time. Like, I didn't get any of that.It was just like, put your head down and work and do your homework and if not, work at the shop. So I. I think part of it is, like, maybe I didn't really realize what I was missing because I just. I was. I had to fall in line.

Matt Gilhooly00:15:28

And you said your mom was a North Star.

Susan Lieu00:15:30

Oh, yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:15:31

And. And North Star. Was this also, like a. An emotional guiding light or was this just like, she was. She was the place that kind of set the. The standards.

Susan Lieu00:15:42

I would not call her an emotional guiding light. She got no time for that, right? She's actually managing the 12 other people in the house. She was like, okay, we're going to open this next salon.We're going to move to this city, okay? And this, everyone, you, you, you, you sit here. You do this. You're training on this new thing. And then. And then I'm gonna reposition you here.Like, it was like we were a football team, except we were our family and we were doing nails, you know, and she was all. She always had a cool about her. I remember even she used to sell these counterfeit dooney and work bags in our nail salon.I remember I wrote this in the memoir, but there's a story where, like, the cops came, and they were like, you can't do this. And she's like, huh? And, like, she was super chill about it. And, like, my aunts thought they were gonna get their nail salon licenses taken away.They thought my mom was going to jail, and she just was super cool about it, you know, like, and there was. There was always, like, no problem, you know?And then somehow we would have these, like, fat parties on the holidays when we could actually close the salon, and there would be, like, 60 people at our house, all our different relatives and her friends and all that. And it was just like, she was this. A magnet for people and food and. And communion. Even though they were having a. Later I found out a very tough time.Interesting to co. Sign their house. They. After we. We didn't have money coming here to America. And within eight years, my parents bought a house.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:08

Wow.

Susan Lieu00:17:09

We were on welfare and then we bought a house in eight years. Later I found out one of the houses they bought. 14% interest. You know what I mean? And then still. They were still going.They're still going for it, you know. And so I look back, I'm like, wow, they had it. Now I have one kid. That's it. That's all I have. And I feel like it's hard.And I'm sitting there thinking about everything that my mom did and overcame was crazy.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:34

Yeah. And with all those people to fall in line to make sure that everyone can succeed in a way and then.

Susan Lieu00:17:41

Teach them English, learn how to drive a car, get your license, like, it was just like, boom, boom, boom. It was all happening concurrently. So no, she had no emotional space for me.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:50

Right. Or I mean, it just sounds like she was. She was the coach and people just listened. And you kind of fall in line because.And then I think people naturally kind of fall in line. When you see someone that looks quote, unquote, successful in something, you kind of like, well, then I need to. Need to fall in line to.To achieve, to do the right things.

Susan Lieu00:18:07

She was the 10th of her 12 siblings, and she was the only one who attempted to escape Vietnam by boat. And it was on her sixth attempt that her and my dad and my two brothers made it. So once she came to America, she would send remittances back.Like, that's how others were able to invest and actually get out of poverty. So my mom is this, like, legendary figure in our entire lineage of a family because now so many more aunts and uncles have come over and cousins.But it was because she took that risk.

Matt Gilhooly00:18:38

Yeah. And I know we're talking a lot about your mom because your mom plays this. This big role in this life shift moment in your life.

Susan Lieu00:18:45

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:18:46

So, you know, however you want to paint what that looked like for you, I think be a good time.

Susan Lieu00:18:51

Yeah. So I'm in sixth grade, and I really want to do volleyball tryouts. And my mom says, no, we don't have the money for it.And I'm trying to sneak out one morning. I'm trying to make an American sandwich instead of my Vietnamese sandwich so I don't get made fun of. And I bump into her in the Kitchen.She knows what I'm going to go do. I fess up. And she says, I can't do it. And then I say, well, fine, then I hate you. And I saunter off. I go to school, I go to volleyball tryouts.And when I come back home, my brother is home from college and it's a Thursday. He shouldn't be home on a Thursday. And he said, go pack your bags. Mom's in a coma.And what I didn't realize is that morning she went in for plastic surgery. A tummy tuck, the narrowing of her nostrils, and a chin implant. Two hours into the surgery, she lost oxygen to her brain.The doctor waited 14 minutes before he made the 911 call. And it's usually after four minutes. Without oxygen, you have permanent brain damage.So my brother and my sister and I pack our bags, we drive an hour to San Francisco, and my mom is just in a coma. So this, this. This huge. She's like, oz, right? And like now she's just.Her face is sunken in, her hands are cold, there's liquids coming out of her body. And I'm like, what happened? Because up until this point in the nail salon, I watch soap operas. And that's what. I know what a coma is.And I know in the soap opera you always wake up, you have a one in a million chance of survival, and you always wake up. And I was like, okay, well, I guess she's just.I wasn't that nervous driving down, but then when I saw her, I was like, oh, this does not look like she's gonna wake up. And five days later, she flatlines.

Matt Gilhooly00:20:42

And you were 12?

Susan Lieu00:20:44

I was 11 at the time.

Matt Gilhooly00:20:45

11.

Susan Lieu00:20:46

And my family to this day, it's been about three decades now, we have never spoken about it ever again. About her, about how she died? No. Never.

Matt Gilhooly00:20:56

Like anyone in your family?

Susan Lieu00:20:57

No. And I was the one who would ask questions and they were like, you're stuck in the past. Move on. What is there to talk about?There are no other memories.

Matt Gilhooly00:21:10

That's. I mean, that's a lot to take on as a child, like.Because also, I would imagine you are getting questions from the people around you that are not family too. Or were you getting. Because I got, as an 8 year old with a dead mom, I got the jokes from the jerks in school.I got the compassionate teachers, everyone.Like all this bombardment of things I didn't know how to answer or like, I didn't even know how to address that, but I could go home and say it to my dad. But in your case, did you experience any of that?

Susan Lieu00:21:44

I remember I go back to school and I'm just like, oh, my God, you know, what am I supposed to do? Because really, my dad was like, take the week off. And I was like, okay. And all I did was read library books. Like, there was nothing. I.I mean, no one talked to me. There was no grief counseling. There was. There was nothing. Everyone just went back to the nail salon to work, and I was just at home by myself.And then I come back to school. I'm on the playground waiting for the bell to ring, and Jessica, the bully goes, what's wrong? Your mom die or something?And I was like, oh, my God, does everyone know? Like, because I didn't know what my teacher said. I don't. I don't know what anyone knew.And then that's when I heard the bell ring and I dashed to the yard duty lady. I don't know her. All I remember is I just put my head into her boobs and I, like, get a big whiff of, like, really intense 90s perfume.

Matt Gilhooly00:22:40

Sorry.

Susan Lieu00:22:40

And I'm. But that is the first time that I allowed myself to cry after my mom died. Because there was no one to cry with. Like, there was.It was like, just move forward like.

Matt Gilhooly00:22:53

A week after or so.

Susan Lieu00:22:54

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I didn't. I didn't cry at her funeral. I didn't because I was like, what? What is that going to change?

Matt Gilhooly00:23:02

Because that's how you were conditioned, or you were assuming you were supposed to feel that way.

Susan Lieu00:23:08

I mean, my aunts were crying, but I was just sitting there. I was like, there's nothing I can do now.And I remember at the funeral, all of the relatives would just, like, they would like, pat me on the head, pat me on the shoulder two times and be like, do well in school. And I didn't actually really understand what happened. All I knew was the term stomach surgery. I didn't know she got plastic surgery.I didn't know it was a botched tummy tuck and she tried to get all these other things.I didn't know that the doctor was on probation, had 19 lawsuits against him, didn't have medical malpractice insurance, actively preyed on Vietnamese refugees. He's a white guy. Did not know any of that. All I knew is there was a sub stomach surgery and something with anesthesia.That's all I knew until I started investigating as an adult.

Matt Gilhooly00:23:53

Yeah. I'm curious how. Because I know you said it here that you. The maybe one of the last things you said to her were those words.Did that play into your psyche at all?

Susan Lieu00:24:06

Huge guilt.

Matt Gilhooly00:24:07

Huge guilt. Because I mean, let's say you didn't mean it. Like we don't mean those things when we're a kid.

Susan Lieu00:24:13

I mean, in the moment I probably meant like, why can't I have these things? You know, you're not even around and you never let me hang out with my friends and I always have to work at the nail salon.You know, I'm an 11 year old tween. Right. But it was a guilt that I could never share with my siblings or my family. So where did it go?You know, it was like stagnant and stuck in my body because I wasn't. We weren't allowed to bring up the past. We just. It was so crazy, Matt. It was like we just pretended she never existed after that.

Matt Gilhooly00:24:45

Yeah, I can't relate to that, but yet I can. Like, I feel like my experience was not don't talk about was.I overheard and assumed the adults around me saying, we just need to make sure he's happy. And that's how I like assumed that they couldn't see me do those other things.So I don't know if it's true, if I could have talked to them about it, but I knew I couldn't in my mind because they needed to make sure I was gonna be okay. So like there's like this part where I internalized it a lot, but for different reasons. Like you didn't even have an outlet.Did you find any outlets that weren't your family? Like beyond the yard lady.

Susan Lieu00:25:32

Yard duty lady? Yeah, that's where I just started achieving and getting a lot of approval. So in middle and high school, I did middle school and high school.I did community service and student government and eventually graduated as the president of my high school was like all white high school. I was president because I got a lot of approval and recognition, mentorship, compassion from the adult mentors. And also I was always rewarded.I always knew where I stood. I always knew it felt very merit based. Right. Whereas at home there was emotional landmines everywhere and I didn't know where they were.

Matt Gilhooly00:26:10

Were each of the achievements satisfying or was it more of like, okay, what's next? As that. As that kid? Because it didn't last long enough for you to enjoy.

Susan Lieu00:26:21

I mean, I mean, I, I think I'm still grappling with how do you enjoy things?

Matt Gilhooly00:26:27

Do you think that is more your upbringing or more this experience of not being able to emote and do those things.

Susan Lieu00:26:34

It's combo, you know, I'm. I'm the child of refugees. There's huge scarcity complex.We were always very concerned about food and money and, you know, like, it's always fight or flight. Right. So there's that.And then I'm trying to fill this, this, like, unfillable hole in my heart, and the only thing that's going to give it to me is deep emotional connection with my family. That's the only thing I can't have.So, of course, everything else I'm grasping for, including being the first student in my high school to ever get into Harvard, you know, like, I'm, I'm. I'm just like, going for it, going. And then it's never enough. I get to Harvard and then it's like, I still want the recognition of my family.I'm now getting, gaining the freshman 15.And there's this line that hangs over me all the time where they're like, if you gain too much weight, no one's going to love you and you're going to die alone. And they said that to me when I was 12 and I was always like the slightly pudgier one.My sister had this like double zero body, you know, Like, I was like, how wiser. Double zero. Like, why don't you just start at one?

Matt Gilhooly00:27:43

It's not a number.

Susan Lieu00:27:44

Yeah. And so I eventually joined a cult, really, in college. Korean yoga cult.And then I eventually changed my thesis and I start writing about them and I sink a lot of money in there because I think I'm going to bring world peace by becoming a yoga instructor.

Matt Gilhooly00:28:03

Was it the community aspect of it?

Susan Lieu00:28:06

Oh, yeah. Community aspect. I had a maternal figure there who was my surrogate mom. And also the rules were clear on how to be worthwhile. Right.This is how you have worth. If you buy this next package, if you clean up the yoga center, if you, you know, it was really clear. Whereas I think in my family, I just.It didn't matter how earnest I was, I was always doing it wrong.

Matt Gilhooly00:28:34

Even when you were achieving all those things, like in school and Harvard and.

Susan Lieu00:28:39

No, it just didn't matter. No one, no one really. It. It always got twisted with one sibling. He'd always turn it nasty.Oh, you just want attention or whatever, you know, and stop showing off. Yeah. And then my dad would be like, why don't you get in Stanford? And then I'd be like, okay, I, like, tried really hard.

Matt Gilhooly00:29:00

Right? Like, what else can I actually do to win this at Some point, there's nothing, right?

Susan Lieu00:29:06

Yeah, no, that's, that's the work I've been doing around radical acceptance that I'm not gonna get my elder's approval. But also, it just shows the generational divide. Like, my dad didn't know what Harvard was, you know, I'm sure he asked.After I called him at the shop that I got in, he just probably just like muttered it to his customers, you know, and then they'd be like, oh, Tom, like, that's actually a big deal. You know, like he, he, he grew up in communist Vietnam and didn't finish ninth grade and then comes to America. So what can I expect him to know?Like, now as a 39 year old, I'm like, it's very clear to me. Like, we were just oceans apart. And he didn't understand how America worked.You know, like, I would be like, I'm gonna go do community service now or I'm gonna do stuff for student government. And he would be, he thought it was. I was such a rebel. And he was just like, don't waste your time on that. Like, why don't you listen to me? You know?And I was just like, I think I need to do this to get into college. And so that's just like a reflection of the fact that he was a refugee, Right. And he didn't know how America worked.

Matt Gilhooly00:30:14

Were your siblings treated similarly or did they have a similar experience? As far as the loss goes, as far as, like navigating the emotional mines or. What did you say? Minefield?

Susan Lieu00:30:26

Yeah, landmines.

Matt Gilhooly00:30:28

Yeah, landmines.

Susan Lieu00:30:29

Everyone fell in line and just pretended she didn't exist.

Matt Gilhooly00:30:34

Are you youngest?

Susan Lieu00:30:35

Where. Yeah, I'm the youngest. So that's where it was mind boggling because I was like, did anyone not. She was alive, right?Like, it, it was, it was kind of crazy because after a while I, I really thought I was like, wow, like, I am stuck in the past, you know, Even though I was like, no, actually, all of this is crazy. Each of them go on to do their own thing. And, you know, I reach out to my siblings, I hang out with them. As long as we're not talking about our mom.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:00

It's got to be so curious for you to wonder if in their secret lives, if they had people to talk about. Like, did they pretend around you that they weren't going to talk about it and they talked about it with someone else?Because I feel like that's a lot to bottle up. I. You know, it is.

Susan Lieu00:31:17

We've never talked about it.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:18

Wow. Yeah. Even after your.

Susan Lieu00:31:21

Even after my one woman show where I impersonate them in front of them.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:26

They came and they just said nothing.

Susan Lieu00:31:28

Two siblings came. One sibling has never come in engaged. And my dad doesn't engage.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:35

Yeah. First of all, and I, I know you don't need this, but I'm sorry that you had to experience life in this way.Yet I understand how and why you've achieved so much because of that. So I just want to put that out there that I really feel for you because this is so challenging as a, as a 40. I almost said 90.As a 40 year old person thinking back about these young versions of us and the things that we wish we could have known.

Susan Lieu00:32:04

Yeah.I mean, I think that's why the memoir was so important to me is like I was writing it for 11 year old me to be like, let me, let me normalize, let me just connect with you. That what happened was not okay and that you can still, you can still heal, you know, was part of your.

Matt Gilhooly00:32:27

Healing journey that find or trying to find answers, to piece things together, to piece the puzzle together. Like all the things you said about that doctor and what your mom was doing was part of you're healing that, seeking that.

Susan Lieu00:32:40

Yeah. So remember, we're not allowed to talk about our mom. Right. So I go through the cult, I get out of the cult.

Matt Gilhooly00:32:47

I forgot about the cult already.

Susan Lieu00:32:48

Yeah. I moved back to Vietnam. I moved to Vietnam and I'm trying to like figure myself out, should I be a human rights lawyer? International development.And my sister comes back with me and here I'm working with, I think usaid and I'm working with cacao farmers. And, and this is full circle because we have a chocolate company that we started in high school together.And she's like, can you help me with my dream? Help me with my dream? I'm like, okay, you know, and. And I move back to the Bay Area, I start helping her build the chocolate company.And then eventually I'm like, I gotta go follow my dreams, go to business school, meet my husband, find myself in Seattle, work in some jobs where I'm not a culture fit, but I'm just doing it to please my dad and pay off some loans. And then there's this part of me where I'm like getting a lot of pressure to have kids. And I was like, how can I become a mom if I never knew my mom?Like, if something went wrong, like, who would I call? Like my sister has had now one kid at this point, but we could never really talk about motherhood, because it was like an extension of our mother.And I was like, God, I think this sounds terrifying. And then the other part of me, I was like, I also feel like I can't be a mom because I feel like I'm a coward in life.Like, I was disappointed with the adult I became. Yeah. Because years prior, I had started stand up comedy, and actually I was. I was crushing it. And I was. I headlined at the Purple Onion.I did a 45 minute set, and then eventually I get heckled by this random guy at a charity fundraiser. And I was just like, oh, my God, who am I kidding? What a dumb idea. And I walk away from the microphone for three years.And then so I was like, so wait, I want to be a mom and tell my kid, be what you want in life. But I did. I. I'm not actually doing that. I know I feel amazing on stage, but now I don't do it anymore. So what's that about? Right?So it kind of all came to a head where I was like, okay, if I'm gonna become a mom, I just need to get the Wiggles out with this performance stuff. Like, let me just try some stuff. And then I'm. And then I'm going to, like, have a baby. And.And so I go to this solo performance class, and they're like, tell a five minute story. And I was like, okay. I was like, I want to avenge my mother's death. So I went to look for a killer.And so I started talking about how I tracked down the plastic surgeon, and then I found out he was dead. And then I like. And then I wanted to know answers because my family wouldn't talk.Anyways, five minutes later, they're like, oh, my God, have you told that story before? And I was like, oh, you think I just, like, air my dirty laundry up for everyone to. To smell? I don't think so, buddy.I'm not allowed to talk about that. But that was the next Life Shift moment, because it was like there was this calling that I had, and there was so much unknown. Right? And. And.And I wanted the truth of my. My mother so I could become a mother. And then it turned from that point months, like two months later, I did my first solo show. And I.I played a number of characters in 25 minutes. And then I was like, okay, great, I'm gonna take my IUD out now. Like, I did it. I made some programs. I put it on the seat, you know, like, yeah.And then who knew that that would just Open up the floodgates to this guy after the show was like, man, that was really raw. But like, I don't, I don't know who your mom was.Like, the only scene you have of your mom is you, little Susan, and trying to like, ask for mom to come back from the coma. Like, who was your mom? What was she like? And I was like, I wish I knew.So that sends me on this wild goose chase to then track down the plastic surgeon's kids, read the depositions, thousands of pages of depositions, go back to Vietnam, try to get more stories. And every time I learn something new, I put it on stage in a one woman show.And the fifth one is called 140 pounds how beauty killed my mother, where I play 15 characters in 65 minutes. And it was a two week, two week run. And I remember my two siblings, Wendy and Kang Anthony, they come up, they're watching the show.At the end of the show, my sister leans over to my brother and says, is that true? Did you really pull the plug on Ma? And he's like, yeah. So there's live discovery happening, right?That they have slowly started to un, unravel small strings of stories to me. And so I folded it in. And then they're on stage, we're doing a Q and A live, talking about my mom for the first time in front of 140 people.But they can't talk about her. They can talk about me talking about her. Do you get what I'm saying?Like, it's still not the emotionally vulnerable conversation I want, but they're starting to open up and they're starting. There's now a turn happening. And it was after that show that I did take out my IUD and I got pregnant immediately.And it was only then when I realized I was pregnant that I was like, all right, that's it. I'm taking the show on a 10 city national tour that I'm going to produce.

Matt Gilhooly00:37:55

That's amazing.

Susan Lieu00:37:57

So because I was like, oh, I can only go during my second trimester, right? Like, that's the ideal time. So for the procrastinator in me, I'm like, cool. Window. Window constraints.

Matt Gilhooly00:38:06

Yeah.

Susan Lieu00:38:07

And then I did it. And sitting in the, in the, like, Fringe Theater in New York City in St. Mark's was my future literary agent.

Matt Gilhooly00:38:17

So all of it really comes from you sharing for the first time. Like, you opened the floodgates of that, saw the power of story for yourself and other people saw you for you without judgment. Like, just like that.Like, I need to know more, I need to know more about you. Open those floodgates and share with. And then you just like all this stuff kind of like snowballs into a healing journey. Is.Was it a healing journey for you?

Susan Lieu00:38:45

Completely. Because I now, I needed to know how am I like my mother? And all of this research and all the performance, now I see it, you know, I am a.I am an image of my mother.

Matt Gilhooly00:38:59

You are.

Susan Lieu00:39:00

And I also found out in the depositions, my body is like my mother. She was five one, I was five two. She was 140 pounds, but lied in her intake form. She was 110. Girlfriend was 140. I'm 140 pounds, you know, on a day.I'm not bloated. Right. So it's like. And then also, like, you got to.

Matt Gilhooly00:39:20

Learn her more as an adult.

Susan Lieu00:39:22

And now that I have a kid, I'm like, I used to think before I had a kid, I was like, oh, my God, I wouldn't be friends with my mom. Like, she was so vain. Like, she, she died from something preventable. And then now that I. My kid's five, I squeeze my belly fat, you know, Like, I.I don't. I don't feel sexy. I don't feel desirable in this society. Society. Right. Like, I don't feel visible.And now I'm like, starting to really empathize with where my mom was of having to hold so much. She had no self care time. I got a facial yesterday. You know, like, I get.I get to have so much more than she did because I stand on the sacrifices of my mother and father. Right. And also I've learned some profound lessons about how we talk about bodies and worth and money and achievement.And I try to practice that with my son because, man, last year with my book tour, things are great. Things were great. My book, best of 2024 for NPR. L. Smithsonian. Like, I was on national television. My. My book tour ended at the Smithsonian. Yeah.For a debut author, you know, I'm not a celebrity. Yeah. Like, I'm like, good job, Susan.

Matt Gilhooly00:40:42

And you probably meant it. Did you. No.

Susan Lieu00:40:46

There was, like, to feel proud, to give myself that approval. Right. Of what the child wants from the parent. Right. It's. It's still this unlearning and active loving for me.And I think that's part of the reason why I was so sick last year. Right. And so it's been a very healing journey. Yes. In terms of. I have an altar of my mother right here. I see her. My. I talked to my son about her.He talks about her and he's like, God, I gotta make her a card. I'm like, okay. You know, I miss her. I'm like, great. Okay. So I actively try to name the shame when people feel it.I allow feelings to feel in our family. You know, we will go to solution mode, But I also allow feelings to exist because mine were repressed for decades.

Matt Gilhooly00:41:42

Right. You weren't allowed to be a full human. No, yeah. No, I agree.

Susan Lieu00:41:47

Disrupted the collective harmony.

Matt Gilhooly00:41:49

Right. Yeah. You don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable or they don't want you to make them uncomfortable.

Susan Lieu00:41:54

Well, and also, you're just disobeying. You have to respect your elders. It's not. You know what I mean? It's not about comfort.It's like, you broke the rule, the sacred rule, which is obey your elders.

Matt Gilhooly00:42:05

Yeah.Do you feel like you have a better relationship with your mom now that you have all these pieces and you were able to dive down into this and feel that connection?

Susan Lieu00:42:14

Yeah, of course. I mean, in my book, I talk about psychics and spirit channeling and how my mom comes to me.So there are many instances where she is communicating directly to me and telling me to keep going, because for a number of times, I tried to stop along the way because I was just disrupting the peace in the family, for sure. And they were like, what are you doing?

Matt Gilhooly00:42:40

Do they accept this version of you now? Do they accept how you are so vocal about it, or is it still.

Susan Lieu00:42:48

Like my sister and my brother and my aunts do, and then one brother and my dad does not. Like, we just pretend I don't do it.

Matt Gilhooly00:42:57

Okay.

Susan Lieu00:42:58

And my dad's like, why don't you become a loan officer?

Matt Gilhooly00:43:01

That's fun. You should totally do that.

Susan Lieu00:43:03

I mean, I think I could still at least be a real estate agent. You know? Like, I'm like, I could earn a commission.

Matt Gilhooly00:43:08

Yeah. No, I get. Yeah.

Susan Lieu00:43:11

But we just pretend I don't do it.

Matt Gilhooly00:43:12

So you maintain a relationship with them, but you just know the boundaries and how you. How you can navigate it without affecting you too much.

Susan Lieu00:43:22

Yeah. I think the core question is, like, how do I love my family and love myself?Because for a long time, it was, I'm going to love my family by being obedient, but not honor my needs. Right. And now I'm like, okay, I think I have enough emotional intelligence to now recognize indirect boundaries.Because they were showing me boundaries. They just weren't being explicit about it. Right.So if someone gets really mad at me or wants to hang up the phone or whatever or says, please don't ever talk to me about this ever again. That's called a boundary, Susan. Cool. You know, and like, because my currency is deep emotional intimacy.And so I was like, but maybe I just, if I just try a different way, maybe it'll be better. But I, I think now in my middle age, I'm like, oh, wow, like everyone has demons. How you're behaving right now is the best that you can do right now.And it might not all be about me. You know, like you, you're projecting your own perception and, and that might not be about me.And so if I don't want to be in the crossfire or this is not making me feel good, cool. I'm going to set my boundaries around that too. But like I said, I grew up in a 13 person house. There were no boundaries then. Right.So I didn't know what boundaries were in a physical sense and I didn't think I needed to have them in an emotional sense. But now I understand boundaries. Okay, well, how can I still take care of my needs? Right?Because I recognize at one point where in the world where I do obey, I call that the default world. What was my result and how did that make me feel? And if I'm not happy with that, what can I change and what can I be responsible for?For me that doesn't infringe upon them. Right.I think for a long time I was like, you are withholding information from me because you don't like me, you know, or I, I've offended you on such a deep level, like, and I made it about me. And it was when I stopped pointing the finger at them and said, cool, so what can I do for my own healing journey? What do I need?Well, you know what, what I need is to know the truth and I need to process it by doing a one woman show and writing memoir. I never needed to do any of this. If you, we could have just had a conversation maybe.I mean, sure, there's a part of me that's always been very exuberant and like love the stage. But finally I said, you know, I'm just not going to obey the old rules anymore and I'm going to do what I need to do for my own fulfillment.

Matt Gilhooly00:45:49

Yeah, you're living your life fully as, with your rules, with the things that, that bring you joy and bring you whatever emotion that you need at that particular time. Took me about 30, I was probably like early 30s, which my.I kind of look at my end of my grief journey, if you will, with my mom, like for my teens and my twenties, I either use it as a crutch, so I used it like, oh, if I did something bad or wrong, it was because my mom died. But if I won something or did something really well, it was because my mom died, you know, like it. So it was like these double crutches.Nothing of it was my own doing. It was always this. She was dead. So that's why this happened. Whether that was good, bad or indifferent.And I would not take chances and I would just pick the easiest thing to be successful at because I knew, okay, well, if I can get an A or I can get what, you know, if I can get an award in that particular thing, I'll definitely do that. And so in my 30s, I'm going to this like my fifth therapist because it's a journey. You gotta find the right one, you gotta right find the right fit.And she was like, you realize that every decision that you've made since you were 8 years old, you did it with that scared 8 year old brain. And I was like, oh my God. And was like the clouds parted. I was like, holy crap.That was like grieving all the things that I didn't live for myself and make the decisions that I wanted to do.And so, you know, it took a couple years after that to really kind of what you're describing and just be like fully understanding of what I need and how I need it and that I'm in charge of that and not if my dad is happy with that decision or so. And so is happy, you know, and it's. It's been such a different journey and I.The way you describe your story and the way that like I almost see this, this opening of the floodgates of sharing your story for the first time is like such a change in you. Would you agree that that really, like there's really a before Susan and an after Susan from that?

Susan Lieu00:47:48

Yeah, I mean, I pivoted into the arts full time after that.

Matt Gilhooly00:47:51

Did you feel like a different person after sharing that story? And it can be. No.

Susan Lieu00:47:59

The show, I am so emotionally vulnerable in public. And yet it didn't feel uncomfortable. You know, I felt like I finally was unapologetically me.And I also, I feel like I stepped into my healer path because then it's like I called it therapeutic theater. Right. Like I keep you there with the humor, but then we go really deep and really vulnerable and shame, we talk about shame.Like we, we just go there and then I Hope I'm a mirror for you. Right. Like it's going to resonate for you. Why is it resonating? Oh, interesting. You know.

Matt Gilhooly00:48:38

Right. It's permission, I think it's.Seeing someone be vulnerable is permission, in my opinion to also investigate if I'm feeling that way or investigate that. Oh, I'm allowed to be sad about that because someone else is.So I'm sure there were like hundreds of people that saw thousands of people that saw you and were like, oh, my story is totally different than hers, but that emotion is very familiar and maybe I can now share my story with someone else.So I can't imagine the ripple effect that your book and your show and all the things that you've done has had just from that 11 year old kid who wasn't allowed to say all those things out loud.

Susan Lieu00:49:28

Not allowed. Yeah. In one year I performed my show 60 times to 7,000 people.

Matt Gilhooly00:49:35

Yeah. So, I mean, at least half of those people, you know, I'm not, I don't want to discount it.Maybe it was 100%, but you know, like, people are so afraid of emotion and I. Yeah. You know, and we shouldn't be. It's such a fulfilling part of our lives. Like, I love to cry.

Susan Lieu00:49:54

People are crying. So people are crying for me when they come up to you after the show and they'll be like, I'm so sorry, I don't know why I'm crying.And I was like, one, don't apologize. And two, we, we both know why you're crying.

Matt Gilhooly00:50:04

Right.

Susan Lieu00:50:05

Because I touched this cord of this place that you've hidden away. And now it gets, it's getting a little oxygen and it wants some attention. And the more you can nurture it, something can evolve, right.The stagnant energy. Energy can start moving and that's exciting. Right? So cry.

Matt Gilhooly00:50:23

Do you celebrate that part of what you give to the world?

Susan Lieu00:50:27

No, like, I mean, that's my honest self. Right, like where. Because okay, Maybe this is 2024 season, but like, it's more like I'm like on to the next thing, baby.Or like, okay, cool, niche audience, like, keep sharing your story to more people, you know, Come on, baby, let's do this. Like, I think there's this refugee hustle in me where I'm like, more, more, more, you know, growth.

Matt Gilhooly00:50:57

I get it.

Susan Lieu00:50:57

And then, but in the moment, in the moment where I'm locking eyes with people and they're telling me stories they've never shared with anybody else, where we're just, they're like I have no words, and I'm like, it's cool to have no words. And then we just, like, hug. I do. I, Like, I've hugged a lot of people, and I'm just like, yeah, I'm. I'm living the dream right now.Like, I'm walking on my path, and I. I think, like, maybe I don't actively celebrate. And that's this muscle I'd like to flex more. Right. Is to enjoy all of this. But I.I am feeling pretty good because my coaches are like. She's like, maybe when you drive around, just ask yourself, like, how could it get better than this? And I'm like, okay.And so I try to say this line to myself and it. And I'm like, holy cow. I actually do what I want in life.

Matt Gilhooly00:51:45

No, it's.

Susan Lieu00:51:46

For a long time, I did not.

Matt Gilhooly00:51:48

Right? You did what everyone else wanted you to do.

Susan Lieu00:51:50

Oh, yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:51:51

Or you thought everyone wanted you to do.

Susan Lieu00:51:53

Showing up was really about me and my dad.

Matt Gilhooly00:51:55

I get it.

Susan Lieu00:51:56

And showing up to work, it was just like, I'm so expressive that it was, like, really obvious that I was. When I'd be frustrated, right? I was like, I don't like dealing with bureaucracy and politics and power.Like, I'm like, you guys are spending money, and you don't actually have any answers, so can we try a different solution? It was like, oh, my God, you're not allowed to say these things. And I'm like, why? I know the difference of being really miserable at work, right?Where it's like, I'm not using my talents. I don't feel like I'm living or all of this, like, leadership development workshops and all this stuff.Like, I felt like I was groomed to be somebody and then to be at a job where I'm like, they're like, no, no, just press the button, Susan. And I was like, but I want to do other things besides pressing the button. They're like, stop it. Press the button, Susan.So looking back, I make the shift in 2018 to become an artist full time. And I had a lot of goals. I had a lot of money goals and press goals. And seven years later, I'm like, all right.Like, the other week, I did some public speaking in front of California Asian American superintendents, principals, and teachers about owning our stories. And I was the opening keynote at a conference for 400 people. And it was like. And. And I turned into stand up comedy.I turned into, like, I was doing my talk, and then I. And then I. And I would do my comedy and it was really amazing. And I get to do that for a living.

Matt Gilhooly00:53:28

I. I love that. But I love the. The underlying thread of the healing journey you're giving other people through your own healing journey.Because, like, it's one thing to finally be in your own where you are chasing your own goals, your own things that are filling your cup versus what you thought other people needed.And I know you're still working on the pieces and the achievement pieces, but to know that, like, even just that talk that you just mentioned, I bet there are so many people that now feel a little bit more ownership of being fully them and sharing their full story and not the story that they think their constituents want to hear. Right? We're all like broken, flawed humans.And to get the permission to share that aspect of us, I often tell people, like, I'm gonna connect with your valleys way more than I'm gonna connect with your. Your peaks of your mountains.Because those are the places where we really see how our humanity can exist and move through and move forward and those things. So I just want to say thank you from the world for opening the door for so many people to feel more comfortable sharing who they are fully.So thank you from the world received.

Susan Lieu00:54:54

Message received.

Matt Gilhooly00:54:55

It's beautiful.

Susan Lieu00:54:56

It's like. It's like power Jiu jitsu. Because I'm not telling you what to do, Matt. Correct. Like, I'm just like, here's my story.Here's my story, you know, and it's. It's. I'm not shooting on you to do it any way. It's like, it's. I'm just going to tell my story and I create space.You open the door, whatever needs to rise, right? And I think that's the cool thing, right? That's total empowerment. And I think that's more sustainable, right?

Matt Gilhooly00:55:27

Of, like, that's a byproduct, what you're doing. That's a byproduct of what you're. What you're doing. There's probably someone that watched you six months ago. You planted a seed.They're not feeling, and they're not feeling it. And then today they think back to that moment and go, oh, my God. I'm not the only one that feels that way. Like, this is not foreign.

Susan Lieu00:55:45

Yeah, I get. I get. I love fan mail. And I get the coolest notes is usually through Instagram. And this one mom was like, hey, I'm going through a really tough time.And I listened to your audiobook and then I got a tattoo. And it inspires me to get up every day and support my daughter. And. And when I'm feeling down, I think about your mother.And she's like, she's now on the fourth re listening of the audiobook. And I'm sitting there going, it's random White woman in Santa Rosa, you know? And I was like, wow, that's amazing.And people will pull me aside on the street and be like, hey, you're 140 pounds. And I was like, depends if I'm bloated. But no, they're like, but they're talking about the show, right?And then they'll tell me which one they went to and how they made them feel and what changes. I. So many notes.

Matt Gilhooly00:56:33

It's beautiful.

Susan Lieu00:56:34

Students then pursuing a master's degree. My book is being taught in high schools and colleges in America. And it's just kind of like I was like, guys, my work is not highbrow.You know, like, it's not fancy literature. It's just my honest take on my experience.

Matt Gilhooly00:56:52

Yeah, it's real.

Susan Lieu00:56:53

And. And it. I hope it's entertaining, but I hope that there's an unlocking that.

Matt Gilhooly00:56:58

There is for you. There is, and there will be, because now I will be able to read this to. To hear all the little details, But I don't know. I think it's so.Whether you told your story to 10 people or 7, 000 people, there's just so such an impact that I've learned through this journey. One quick example. I spoke to someone.It's probably been like 100 episodes ago or so, but when I was growing up, around 16, 15, 16, I got into this phase in which I convinced myself that my mom was not really dead. She was in a witness protection program. And I thought it was the weirdest thing, so I wouldn't tell anyone.And so I was talking to this guest, and she was telling me her father died when she was 5. And in her teens, she convinced herself that her father was not dead. He was in witness protection and he was going to come back someday.And at that moment, I felt validated that I was not broken. I was not weird for thinking that. And so that's what I'm saying. When people hear these things, you don't even.It could be like one day you, like, went and got coffee and this happened, you know, whatever it may be. And they are like, oh, I'm not the only one that feels that way. I'm not. I'm not broken. I'm like a normal human being.And that's why I keep getting so stuck on how the byproduct of all the things you're doing for yourself and filling these boxes of like this artist journey that you're on, the byproduct is helping people feel more human. That I apologize for coming back to it so many times, but it's just so important.I'm thinking of the 8 year old Matt, the 11 year old Susan that probably felt one way or another that like we were the only ones going through this and like how the hell are we going to get through it?So thank you for validating so many people to know that like they're not the only ones to feel weird or different or whatever it may be at that moment in time.

Susan Lieu00:59:00

Yeah, I think the core word is belonging. They don't feel like they belong.

Matt Gilhooly00:59:06

No.And, and I think by what you're doing, the ripple effect is that parents, what you're doing with your child now, parents that see you will also open doors for their kids, the 8 year old, the 11 year old, to say the things that feel uncomfortable, that feel scary, that feel whatever it may be. And then we work through it together as humans because that's just what we do. We're resilient beings whether we want to be or not.Somehow we always kind of make our way through, you know, in hard moments.So I, I just think as hard as your story is, the beauty in your story was when you felt comfortable enough to really share that with strangers and then go down that road of healing. So thank you for your beautiful life story thus far.

Susan Lieu00:59:56

Thank you.

Matt Gilhooly00:59:57

I like to kind of bring these home and I see we've hit the hour.Mark, I love to ask a question and usually I'll go back to, I would go back to this 11 year old Susan and ask her if this version of you could say something to her.But I'm almost wondering if before you walked into that space where you shared that story for the first time, is there anything that, that you now 2025 Susan would want to say to that version of Susan about this journey you were about to go on?

Susan Lieu01:00:28

Every day just take one more step, you know, like I had, I had signed up for the solo performance class because I was looking for structure of like how do I deal with this deep calling? And it seemed too big and it seemed like I'm too late. Who am I kidding? And I didn't study theater, I didn't study writing.And yet I have been able to do these mediums and share my story. And I just want to just tell 2017. Susan, just take another step. Every day, just take one small step. That's it. One small effort.

Matt Gilhooly01:01:13

Yeah. What do you think she would say about Susan seeing you now and the things you're doing?

Susan Lieu01:01:18

Hell yeah, girl. Hell yeah. Like, I, I, I didn't think it would come to this. Honestly, Matt.Like, I, I knew I wanted to write a book, but I didn't actually think I get a book deal. I didn't really think it would hap. Like, I wanted it. I could see it, but I was like, I don't know how.And even now I'm like, I want to do film and tv. And I'm like, I got ideas, you know? Like, I, it's. And I'm. I don't know how, but, you know, it's possible. I know it's possible.I mean, maybe seven years from now, we'll have the same conversation and be like, what did you Want to tell 2025 Susan?

Matt Gilhooly01:01:54

You know, like, be like, man, you had a lot coming, right?

Susan Lieu01:01:57

Maybe. So maybe that's. I should take that advice, which is every day, take one small step. That's it. Just one. Just one.

Matt Gilhooly01:02:03

No, I love it.If people want to take a small step in their life and connect with you and send you fan mail or find your book or get in your circle, what's, like, the best way to find you? Do you want to hear from people? Like, what's, what's the deal?

Susan Lieu01:02:16

Oh, yeah, I'm an extrovert. I would love to hear from people. My website is Susan Liu, Lieu me. And that's where you can subscribe to my substack Live like youe Mortal.You can follow me on Instagram at Susan Liu. And I have a podcast myself. It's called Model Minority Moms, where we talk about being everything for everyone else but ourselves.

Matt Gilhooly01:02:37

Another important thing you're putting out there. We will put all those links and stuff in the show notes. That's the easy part. Thank you for changing lives through this conversation as well.There were things in this conversation that reminded me of why I share broken parts of me on social media, on with my friends, because it creates more humanity in the people around us. So thank you for validating my experience through your story and the way we have this conversation. Conversation.Thank you for just wanting to be a part of this.

Susan Lieu01:03:11

Thanks for having me.

Matt Gilhooly01:03:12

Well, the, the honor is mine. And thank you to Michelle for connecting us.If, if, if you're listening out there and something that Susan said resonates with you or you think someone in your life needs to hear this conversation. We would love it if you share this episode with them and kind of change the world one little ripple at a time.And I think with that, I'm going to say goodbye. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Susan.

Susan Lieu01:03:40

Of course.

Matt Gilhooly01:03:51

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.