Transforming Struggle into Change: Resilience, Empathy, and Justice Reform | Sean Wilson

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We're off law. And so I don't have a problem sharing that over 20 years ago at the age of 17, I was charged and sentenced to a total of 50 years in Wisconsin Department of Corrections as a 17 year old kid. I have no problem sharing that because as a young person being exposed to the things that I was exposed to.

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you tend to emulate what you see. That's all you know. You tend to give in to peer pressure and poor decision-making as a teenager, even as an adult. But in this case, I was a teenager. I was someone who wanted to impress my friends. I was someone who was inclined to making bad decisions as young people are. But on top of that, I...

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violated the sense of security of another human being in which I take full responsibility for and have begun to do the healing, the atoning, and currently in a space of redemption, so to speak, as a result of my poor decision making.

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coupled with peer pressure over 20 something years ago. Welcome back to another episode of the Life Shift podcast, where we talk about the extraordinary stories that redefine lives. Today, I am joined with Sean Wilson, and he is someone that will certainly inspire you. He turned a daunting prison sentence into really a catalyst for societal change. Sean's story isn't just about

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overcoming adversity. It's really an exploration of the ability to grow and learn and empathize with others in even the most challenging circumstances. From receiving a 50 year sentence at just 17 years old to becoming an advocate for justice reform, Sean's journey reminds us of the potential for change within all of us. He's currently the organizing director on dream.org's justice team and he brings a unique perspective.

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shaped by his 17 years within the criminal legal system. In this episode, we talk about how Sean used his time in incarceration, not just to survive, but to actually educate himself and understand the systemic issues that are facing our criminal justice system. We also talk about how his experiences show just how empathy can break those cycles of violence and bring about real change in society. Before we begin, I'd like to extend a special thanks to my...

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Patreon supporters, especially Traci, Miki, and Emily, who have generously sponsored two episodes this month. Your support is invaluable in keeping this podcast going and covering everything from production costs to enabling these important conversations. If you too would like to support the show, please visit patreon.com slash the Life Shift podcast, and you can learn more about the different tiers, the exclusive perks.

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including an upcoming t-shirt giveaway for the members. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Sean Wilson. I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with Sean, and Sean is part of a group of people that I am having the pleasure of having these conversations with. So thank you for being here, Sean. Thank you for having me, and I'm excited to know that you've been in communication with my people. I have spoken to Nisha, and I've spoken to Amanda so far. I think there's one more person, and I'm not quite sure who, because this is like this.

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double-edged sword of having this podcast and people being interested and being on it. I have so many people booked that I don't really know who's coming up next, which is kind of exciting, but also like, I feel bad, but maybe I shouldn't. Well, whoever it is, it's gonna be a powerful and informative conversation. I assure you that I've worked with some pretty dynamic people who are all purpose-driven and working to bring about transformational change in this country.

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and leading from a space of empathy. So I'm sure that's gonna be a powerful conversation, whoever that may be. Well, I know that yours will be, and like we talked about before we started recording, I don't do a lot of research. I simply ask the guests for a simple one to two sentence to kind of give me framework as far as, you know, like if I'm walking in, what am I walking into in this conversation? But I truly want these conversations to unfold as if we were sitting

05:09
at a coffee shop and just you were telling me your story and I was asking you questions. I think there's a lot of people, maybe it's getting a little bit better in 2023, but I think there's a lot of people that are afraid to ask questions. They're afraid to find out reasons why because for so long we were all very performative. I love to have these conversations unfold in the way they do. One of my main goals, just so you know, going into this is-

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I want people that are listening, I want someone out there that might be going through something similar or have someone that they know going through something similar and they feel like they're the only person that's ever experienced this, can hear from someone like you or someone like your cohorts or just anyone that's been on the show and feel a little less alone in their circumstance and maybe feel inspired to move forward. Absolutely. I think it's very important that people hear other folks' stories.

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because, and I read this a while ago that spoke about how our lives are so short upon this earth. And it's very important that we read autobiographies and biographies of those who have come before us, as well as our contemporaries. And I'm someone who truly believe in that because I've learned a great deal through my communications with various folks all across this country. I've learned a great deal from them. I've been inspired by them.

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I've changed the way that I see and do things as a result of my communications with them. So I think these type of conversations are very, very important because it contributes to another individual's wellbeing. It contributes to their humanity. And the more conversations we have with one another, where we're learning from one another's experiences and backgrounds, that allows us to move about the earth a little bit more empathetically.

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I agree. I think it also helps us avoid, I think sometimes we get trapped, and maybe I'm speaking for myself, we get trapped in these assumptions about people because we know just a sentence about their story, right? And I think through conditioning and our upbringing and the world that we've lived in, we make assumptions. But if we break down these walls and we have these conversations, we learn about other people, like you said, it allows us to develop a little bit more empathy and understand and like, oh.

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We're not that different. We do have a lot more in common than I thought we did. And so I'm finding that just so rewarding in this journey. And I love talking to the people that work at your organization, dream.org. I think it's the things that you guys are doing. You're doing exactly that, but you're actually affecting legal changes. And you're affecting people's individual lives, as well as the community.

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whether that's national or regional. So maybe you can just tell us a little bit about what you do now without giving away too much and then kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this pivotal moment and this life shift that we're gonna talk about. Absolutely. So here at dream.org, I have the privilege and honor of being the organizing director, which entails me building relationships in order for us to do the work that we do.

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relationships have to be built. And the way I build those relationships is through engaging communities and individuals who have been impacted by the criminal legal system and figuring out how we as a national organization that works in the issue areas of climate justice, tech equity, and criminal justice reform, figuring out how we can be a value add to the lives of individuals who are working at the local level and figuring out how they can collaborate with us.

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at the federal level to bring about transformational change in the, as it pertains to legislation, as it pertains to policy change, as it pertains to pathways of employment. My goal and responsibility is to cultivate those relationships and figure out where we can plug individuals into our work. That must be really rewarding and also frustrating at the same time, because I'm sure there's a lot of...

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walls to break down. I'm sure there's a lot of challenges that come, but also the opportunity to meet people that you may otherwise have never met or understood or crossed lines, if you will. Like maybe those back to the assumptions like, oh, I could never get along with someone or understand why they do X, Y, and Z. But now that's your responsibility to find a way.

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to listen, to understand, to create that connection and community. So that must be both rewarding and frustrating. Absolutely. I recall when I was working for the American Civil Liberties Union in Wisconsin a few years back, I had led a campaign that worked on reforming probation and parole. And one of our strategies or tactics that we employed was doing a statewide tour.

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an informational tour where we were going to go into the rural parts of Wisconsin and have conversations with the folks there, educating them on what probation and parole was doing, not only to southeastern Wisconsin, which is heavily concentrated with Black and brown people, but how probation and parole was affecting the communities in rural parts of Wisconsin,

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we're not much different from one another. You're impacted the same way that we're impacted. However, the news media sensationalizes Southeastern Wisconsin because that is what gets them the viewers. That's what gets them the reshares. But let's talk about what is happening here in rural Wisconsin and what you can do to bring about change within this system that we're both impacted by. Of course, black.

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and brown people are disproportionately impacted by this system, but you are impacted. And on that alone, let's come together, let's put our heads together and figure out what viable solutions exist to disrupt this system. And I recall an older couple, older white couple came up to me as I was talking about a young lady who had 10 years on probation.

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and she got out of prison and she did nine years and 11 months. She was about to get off of probation next month. She was still navigating the recovery process and getting over and healing from her trauma. The 12th month, which would have ended her probation, she relapsed.

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And instead of her receiving treatment, the courts decided that they were going to lock her back up. Now, in Wisconsin, when you are on probation, parole, and you are going to get off of probation and parole a year or two years, if you violate conditions of your parole, what happens is you lose all of that good time. So you serve nine years.

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in 29 days and there's 30 months left in this calendar month. You get to the 29th day, tomorrow you get off of probation. If you violate your probation or parole before that final day, guess what? You get revoked and sent back to prison potentially. And the nine years in 11 months in 29 days goes out the window. It...

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It's not credited to you. And so as I was sharing that story, afterwards this white couple came up to me and said, and shared with me how their daughter was sent to prison, was struggling with opioids, did not receive the treatment that she needed, and was released probably a year prior in overdose, died, and...

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And so when they shared this story, a heart wrenching story, when they shared that story with me, what that told me was this is an issue that isn't an isolated issue or an isolated situation. And so I leaned in a little bit more after they shared that story with me when we came back from our break. And not to my surprise, so many people in the room raised their hand of how they...

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had family members and friends who were struggling with addiction. And they were looking and wanting support and information to help them challenge the system that was ineffective in getting their loved ones the treatment that they needed. Instead, they were being sent to prison to languish away and coming out worse off than they went in. And so as a result of me,

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doing this statewide tour and hearing these stories from these folks in rural Wisconsin, I was able to galvanize southeastern Wisconsin, northeastern Wisconsin, northwestern, southwestern Wisconsin, the entire state, I was able to galvanize and bring them all to the state Capitol to share their story of how they are impacted by the policies and the laws that are on the books in the state of Wisconsin. In...

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I was able to do that by listening and having a conversation with everyday Americans who are impacted by these issues. But you would never know if you don't ask the question. You would never know if you don't shut up and listen. You would never know if you don't lean into your own vulnerability and share how you've been impacted by the issues that we as Americans are impacted by. And so it's very important.

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that we build these relationships, that we lead from a space of empathy, that we truly try to understand what it is that the other person is going through. And I know you mentioned early on that we are afraid of silence, but silence is the biggest indicator that you are listening to what has just been said in the midst of a conversation. Well, I...

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I say this a lot, I think there's society, we've kind of been conditioned to say the next best thing or say the thing that sounds the most impressive or I'm thinking like corporate meetings kind of thing. It's like you wait for the silence so that you can say your thing. You don't wait for the silence to listen. You're not paying attention. And to your point, silence is like kind of where the story goes deeper. Because if no one's talking, we're all thinking, we're trying to.

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to get a little bit closer, and I love that story. One, because the space that you were working in, I think there is a natural personal shame that comes with sharing that story, and it's really hard to do, so you have to create that space where it feels safe. And then once those people share that and realize that everyone sitting in the room knows someone that's had that same experience,

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It makes the next time that you share that story so much easier. And like you almost like control that narrative now and feel there's not shame to this. It's just it is. It is what it is, what we're experiencing. And maybe together we can create change. And so I love that story. And I think it's so important to distill it down to something as silly as a podcast. It's just. Sharing stories, they can make an impact and you can understand other people.

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So why don't you kind of paint the picture and share your story of how you even got to this point. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of people have, you're absolutely right, a lot of people have shame in sharing their story or their experience. I don't believe that I fall into that category because knowing history, knowing human nature.

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To be human is to err. To be human is to make a mistake. And really understanding that we all are with fault.

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We're all flawed. And so I don't have a problem sharing that over 20 years ago at the age of 17, I was charged and sentenced to a total of 50 years in Wisconsin Department of Corrections as a 17 year old kid. I have no problem sharing that because as a young person being exposed to the things that I was exposed to.

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you tend to emulate what you see. You tend to, that's all you know, you tend to give in to peer pressure and poor decision-making as a teenager, even as an adult. But in this case, I was a teenager. I was someone who wanted to impress my friends. I was someone who was inclined to making bad decisions as young people are. But on top of that,

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I violated the sense of security of another human being in which I take full responsibility for and have begun to do the healing, the atoning, and currently in a space of redemption, so to speak. As a result of...

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my poor decision making coupled with peer pressure over 20 something years ago. A lot of people will say

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Why should we listen to your story or why should we care about what it is that you have to say? And I will say to those naysayers that, yes, I violated the law, I committed a crime, I made a bad decision. However, the consequences

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or the miscarriage of justice that was perpetrated against me is something that occurs daily in this country.

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And it's not right. And over the course of 17 years that I was incarcerated, the more exposure or the more exposed I became to a miscarriage of justice through the courts and for 17 years within the confines of the Department of Corrections, the more trauma was

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perpetrated upon me, the more I said to myself, I need to go home and educate the public on how their tax dollars are being spent. Their tax dollars aren't being spent to one, rehabilitate people. Their tax dollars aren't being spent to keep them safe. Their tax dollars are being spent.

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to incapacitate human beings for indiscretion. And that is not justice. What is justice is creating a pathway where the perpetrator can repair and restore the harm that they perpetrated and the victim being able to tap into a pathway of healing.

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from the harm that was perpetrated upon them. And when that happens, you prevent hurt people hurting people. When that happens, you prevent this individual who have committed this offense from becoming angrier, more resentful, more vengeful. You prevent them from coming out of a environment looking to cause

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more harm. You create a situation where individuals come home looking to disrupt this type of behavior that is happening all around us and being a value add to the progressive development of society. But because that isn't happening, we have a cycle of violence that continues to happen in this country.

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through our criminal legal system, because they're looking upon human beings as being disposable. And that's just not right. And so because I personally experienced that, I sat down and realized that I needed to do that internal healing. I needed to educate myself so that I can be better suited to stand.

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in front of the masses of people and say, hey, I know that you are being told this, but as someone who has gone through the fire and have come out no longer base metal, but pure gold, I'm saying to you that this is not what is actually happening within the confines of this system, but this is what's happening and you should be upset. You should be enraged.

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You should be an uproar. You should join forces with me to change this system for the better so that it can begin to produce individuals that are gonna be a value add to society overall. And that was a long-winded way of explaining, basically, that I went to prison, changed my life, and now I am doing purposeful work that is changing the lives of thousands of people all over the country.

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I mean, it's fascinating and it's also, I don't know, as you were telling your story, you said you were there for 17 years? You were locked up for 17 years. And as you were telling that, I think it's just a constant punishment. It's not like you're punished for the crime and you get your punishment. You're just getting punished every day for 17 years, maybe not.

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on the surface that you can see that that's a literal, quote unquote, punishment, but the experience that you were experiencing, you were just like paying for it every day for 17 years. And part of me as I listen is I'm like, how does one become you and not so angry and so disenfranchised and so thrown away? And so, you know, like I feel like...

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because of the system, and I know you're trying to change this, I feel like most people would just be like pissed. Like you'd just be so mad that like, look, I understand that I did something wrong. I broke the law. I'm sorry. I, you know, like I made a bad decision. It was one decision that I made though. And now you're making a thousand decisions through this time to punish me for it. I can imagine that everyone would come out.

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pissed off and then when you get out, there's no opportunity for you either, right? Because everyone's closing the doors on you. How did you, like where in that journey did you decide, was there some kind of epiphany where you were like, okay, I could go down this road and be just angry or I could go down this road and be like, okay, I can learn from this and become a student and then a teacher and then a change maker. Was there like a moment in there?

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was at sentencing. Good for you. Absolutely. As I sat next to a highly paid attorney, because my family spent over $20,000 on my defense, as I sat next to my attorney and I heard the judge just throw out all types of numbers, I didn't even understand what was being said to me. All I heard was,

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Sean Wilson, you will be able to contribute to our society in your mid thirties. And here I am 17, 18 year old kid hearing the judge say to me that I will be able to contribute to society in my mid thirties, which lets me know that I'm gonna be in prison until I'm in my thirties.

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And so I leaned over and I said to my attorney, I said, what is she saying? And my attorney patted my arm and said, don't worry, I'll let you know what she is saying once we go in the back to the bullpen. And I sat back and the thought that came to me was they are gonna hate.

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that they gave me this much time to think. And at the time, I didn't know how much time I had. I just knew I had some time because she said, you're mid thirties. And so in that moment, the epiphany was, they're gonna hate that they gave me this much time to think. And I didn't know what that meant at the time. Cause it could have gone either way. It could have gone either way. And so I knew instantly from...

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my arrival at county jail to my arrival at the prison that this was not my life. That this could not possibly be my life. I had so many hopes, dreams, aspirations. My family had so many hopes, dreams, and aspirations for me and I just knew that this was not supposed to be my life. However,

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I was someone that was highly intelligent, a student of history, even before I picked up a book in prison, I always was a reader. And I knew what history said about men, women, and children who experienced great trials and tribulations. They always came out on the other side greater than they were before they went in to this trial.

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And so...

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When I got to prison, the environment evokes anger. It evokes bitterness. It evokes hopelessness. It is a sensory depriving environment that is not conducive to growth and development. And I don't know why they exist. Well, I do know why they exist. They exist to punish you. However,

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Recognizing where I was, I realized that I was not going to become angry. I wasn't going to become hopeless. I wasn't going to become bitter. Instead, I was going to become healed. I was going to become a change agent. And so I embarked on my studies to understand the system in which I found myself in. And also, I embarked on a journey of studying

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who I was as a man, what my responsibilities were to myself, my family, my community, and the world at large, and begin to put forth a plan, an engagement plan, of how I was gonna navigate this thing called 17 years of imprisonment. And I read everything that I can possibly get my hand on. I had conversations with so many individuals in prison.

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I built relationships with individuals who would never see the light of day, and they imparted great wisdom into me, which allowed me to steer clear of the noise and the nonsense that was all around me. And I continued to say and speak into existence. My grandmother used to always say, whatever it is that you want, speak it into existence. And so I spoke life every day into existence. I spoke freedom every day into existence.

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health, happiness. I spoke all of those things into existence. I lived my life for 17 years in prison as if I was already out in the free world. I got out of prison before I got out of prison. And what I mean by that is I got out mentally before I got out physically. And so when I finally got to my release date, I hit the ground running and was able to navigate society and...

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everything that society throws at you in denying you employment, denying you housing. I was able to navigate all of those things pretty easily. And I was able to do so because I prepared for it. And I was able to do so because I had strong family support. Two weeks prior to me coming home from a 17-year prison bit, my grandmother, the woman who raised me, died. And

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That was another epiphany for me that I had to like really hunker down and really like go hard, you know, really go hard in achieving my goals, really, you know, surround myself with quality people that's going to invest in me as a human being that's going to invest in me as a leader.

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And that's the reason why, you know, I'm the man that I am today is because I prepared for it for a total of 17 years. And I often say that the criminal justice system is really screwed up because you had a judge who looked at me as a 17 year old kid and decided that she was going to give me in a confined space.

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the same amount of time that I walked upon the earth. I've only been alive for 17 years. And so I'm going to give you 17 years in a confined setting that I'm certain she probably never stepped foot in to even know what she was sending me into. Or she could have been sending me into a burning down factory.

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or a house with wolves in it. She didn't even know, but she looked upon me. She was checking the boxes. She was just checking the boxes. And because I was a young black boy, I was disposable. Because I didn't look like her, I was disposable. Maybe if I looked like her and she could have, you know. Empathized. Empathized and considered me as her son, her brother, her nephew. Maybe she wouldn't have gave me a total of 17 years in prison.

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Do you think that, I mean, in your experience there in prison, were there more people like you or more people the other way? Like, it just, I can't picture myself having that mental fortitude to be like, you know, you described it as every day you were speaking this freedom into the world and finding.

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whatever happiness you could find in the space that was allowed of you so that you could, day one that you get out, do everything that your grandmother hoped for you and that your family hoped for you and that you eventually hoped for you. Were more people like you or more people on the angry, like what we see on TV or movies or things like that? I would say, I would definitely say that individuals like me is an anomaly in prison.

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There's a select few of us who really understands the plight in which we all are in. And those are the individuals who the system or the administrators do not want in general public. They don't want us having conversations with the population about what they should be doing. They don't want us passing books out. They don't want us passing newspapers out. They don't want us having...

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constructive and productive conversations that's going to begin to change the trajectory of a person's life. They want you to be angry. They want you to be bitter. They want you to be hopeless. So they can punish you. So that they can punish you. They have to justify their existence. And if you had everyone in prison studying and healing and putting together a plan of how they're gonna successfully reenter society.

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We want half prison.

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Because people would care. Did you find in the administration, were there any people in the administration or the people that work there that were compassionate, that were understanding? Absolutely, I've had so many conversations with so many correctional officers, wardens, and high level administrators in prisons, all across the state of Wisconsin and various prisons that I found myself in.

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who were very understanding, who often said to me, hey, you just got caught. You know, we all make mistakes. We all do wrong. Hey, you just got caught. And so hearing these correctional officers say things like that, it reminded me of my humanity. It reminded me, it lets me know that they themselves are human and that they are inclined to making a mistake.

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And that because they understood and knew that, they didn't look upon me as other. They looked upon me as someone who they can build a relationship with and try to understand how I got here and also figure out or understand what are my plans. Once I finally leave here, I've had conversations with social workers who looked at me and said to my face.

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I meet hundreds of guys and I can look at you, Sean, and say without a shadow of a doubt, you're not coming back here. You're not coming back here. And the reason that they were able to look upon me and see that in me is because when I went into their offices, whenever I sparked up a conversation with them, I wasn't talking about what was happening in the confines of this correctional setting.

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I was talking about what my plans were and how I can get additional information that will allow me to execute on these plans. They weren't used to having quote unquote inmates come up to them and ask them these type of questions. That impressed upon them that I was different. Most guys are having conversations about, oh, they cut our recreation short by 10 minutes.

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I need an extra sheet and they won't give me an extra sheet or hey, I need a new shirt Can you help me get a new shirt? I think Although I cared about that that wasn't something that I lost sleep on Because I understood as my grandmother so often said to me that when you find yourself in the lion's den When you find your hand in the lion's mouth, you don't behave or react or respond

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rash. You want to be stay calm, cool, and collected. Gather yourself, figure out how you're going to get out the situation that you find yourself in, in the most safest way possible where you're not going to lose any limbs or life. And so I realized that my imprisonment, I was in the lion's den. And so I asked myself and I said to myself, how are you going to navigate this

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lions then while maintaining your one sanity to your life and then three your authenticity you know how are you going to do that and the way i did that was staying focused on myself i had tunnel vision i was focused on what it was that i wanted to do upon my release and i understood each day i needed to make sure that it was regimented that it was a

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And I even live my life like that right now. I still wake up at four or five o'clock in the morning, pray, read, meditate, exercise, and then grab my phone, check my emails, and then look at social media or whatever the case may be. But I'm very disciplined. As Socrates said, the undisciplined life is a insane life. And so I was very disciplined.

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my entire incarceration and that has continued into the free world. I mean, it sounds like you were really living in the future. You were 17 years of planning of that day one and what you were going to do and how that was going to scaffold into affecting change. I mean, I'm still amazed and inspired by that mental fortitude that you had. It sounds like your grandmother was kind of this guiding...

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voice in your head throughout and I can understand that. I had a really strong relationship with my grandmother and I always just hear or get reminded of the things that she used to say to me. When I was eight, my mom was killed in an accident and my life was like, this is why the life shift exists. My life was literally never going to be the same. She was that voice. She was the one that reminded me of the purpose of...

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why we continue on and why we honor things and what we do. So I love that you had that through line as well, but you were, I mean, like you describe your current days, it's very disciplined because you're taking care of yourself first, because if you don't take care of yourself and you don't take care of the things that you need, you can't do anything else effectively. Right, and so it sounds like you were doing that in those 17 years as well. Yep. Amazing, you know, like I mean, there's a lot of people that can't tell your story.

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you know, unfortunately. Absolutely. And I'm sorry to hear that about your mom. And that really paints the picture for the podcast, and why you're having these conversations. And I thank you. I thank you for using your story to tell other's story, and to show that we all are human. And that to be human is not only to err, but it's also to heal.

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and you've created a platform where individuals are able to heal. Having these type of conversations are very cathartic. It's very cathartic for me and I'm sure it's very cathartic for you. I met a guy in prison by the name of Rudy Bankston and he had a life sentence, the letter L. He would never see the light of day, but he was someone who was very instrumental in my development in giving me books and challenging my thinking.

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Whenever I was thinking about doing something rash, he always pulled me in and challenged how I was thinking about going about whatever it was that was in front of me. And I owe a lot to him as well, but he was someone who never showed me any type of hopelessness, although he had a life sentence. He...

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continuously spoke life, not only into me, but he also spoke life into other men who were around him. And that is why I think it's of utmost importance that we use our story to speak life into the listeners that we're communicating to, seen and unseen, because we never know how our story can prevent someone.

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from taking their lives can prevent someone from making the decision that's gonna change the trajectory of their life. And so I'm always open to sharing my story and to speaking life into others who are willing to listen, unwilling to listen. I'm always looking for those opportunities to do just that. Yeah, and I think there's...

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there's opportunity for resonance or inspiration from a story that you can't relate to either, because you hear something that you said, someone might be listening to this, and they hear that you speak these particular things into the world every day, and that's how you created this mental fortitude. They might not have the same circumstance, but maybe their life is not feeling the way that they want to, and so you saying that sparked some kind of change in them. So...

45:10
Sharing stories is just so powerful. I'm way beyond trying to connect on the same exact experience, but rather just in general sense, we're human. Like you said, we have ups, downs, in-betweens in all the pieces that make us human, and I think that's interesting. I'd love to know what your, like, when you got out, what were some of the first things that you did to, because you had 17 years to plan for that, did everything kind of go the way that you had hoped?

45:40
Yes and no. It's hard not to fantasize, I'm sure. So here's the thing. Once I delve deep into my studies and realize that I have been belmbozled, that I've been misguided, misinformed, and that things don't work the way that it is often communicated, that you have to do your own research.

46:10
And so while I was in prison, I made a commitment that one, this system is corrupt and unjust, and I have to expose it. I have to tell the people the truth. I have to scream and yell from the mountaintop about what this system is and what it does. And so I made a commitment to do just that. And so upon my release, I began...

46:39
working odd jobs. But while I was working these odd jobs in factories, stirrers, shifts, driving forklifts, I also had the opportunity to mentor young people. And I felt that my mentoring young people would deter them from going down the path that I went down and preventing them from bumping their head because I bumped my head for them. So they can vicariously live through my story. And so I was able to do that. And

47:08
As I was on the kickball field sharing my story with a guy, there was a lady, and I believe God has angels all around us. One of God's angels was ear hustling, and I'm so grateful that she was ear hustling. But she overheard me say to this guy that I just spent 17 years in prison and I'd only been home for six months. She walked over and she said, hey, did I hear you correctly?

47:38
And I responded, yes, you did. And she said, I need you, and walked away. Now, I didn't know what she meant by that. But she's on the kickball team. We have one another's contact. And so she texts me probably two, three weeks later and says to me, hey, are you available on this date, six months away? And I said, yes, I'm available. She said, great. I would like for you to go.

48:07
to Boston, Massachusetts to speak at Harvard University on the panel about juvenile justice. I would love for you to attend this conference and share your experience. And I've never been on an airplane, never spoke in front of a large crowd. None of the things that she was asking me to do, I've never done them before in my life. However, for 17 years, I prepared myself to do just that.

48:37
And so six months later, here I am, luggage in tow, on my way to Harvard University to attend this conference, spoke. And the more I spoke about juvenile justice and justice in general, the more so many people, Harvard professors and individuals that had so many letters behind their name, agreed with me and affirmed everything that I was saying.

49:04
which got rid of the imposter syndrome that I was suffering from because I was like, surely I can't say anything that these people already don't know. Surely my thoughts and insights on criminal justice and juvenile justice is not gonna give them any insight. To my surprise, it gave them a great deal of insight because as I was speaking, they followed...

49:34
They prefaced their remarks with, I agree with Sean, to Sean's point. And that removed the imposter syndrome that I was suffering with and let me know that what I was saying was of value and I need to continue to lean in to my truth and authenticity and speak, you know, unashamed, speak boldly and courageously. And so I did that. And so...

50:00
Returning back to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, continuing to speak on panels, the ACLU of Wisconsin were looking for an organizer to build out their campaign around probation and parole. I avoided the position for quite some time, but the executive director, he was adamant in getting me to, at the very least, go through the interview process because...

50:26
In his words, you know, I have a powerful story. I am a dynamic leader and he would love for me to work for the organization. So I applied for the position. There were 97 applicants for the position that I applied for. By the grace of God, I got the position. And I won't say the rest is history in this case, but what I will say is that that is the beginning of my journey. Of.

50:56
impacting change at the state level and now at the national level. My current supervisor, I met him five, six years ago when we both worked at the ACLU. And this lets you know the value of stories. This lets you know the value of relationships. Here I am at the ACLU after he has long gone and pursuing other...

51:25
career goals that he had for himself, I receive a call saying, hey, I have a position coming open. I think you will be great in this role. Would you mind submitting your resume and your cover letter? I was out of town at the time and I was unhappy at the ACLU and I came back, applied for the position, went through the interview process and here I am now working at the national level for this national nonprofit.

51:54
who has a dream. And our dream at this nonprofit is that we believe and dream of a world beyond mass incarceration, poverty, and pollution. The issues in which we work on, everyone on our staff is either directly impacted by these issues or proximate to these issues. Because we believe in order to really offer viable solutions,

52:23
and effectuate change, we have to be proximate. We have to be proximate to the people who experience this 24-7-365. And many of the people on our staff experience the issues in which we work on 24-7-365, and the ideas and the solutions that they put forth is what allows us to be effective.

52:53
It's what allows us to show up in space authentically. It is what allows individuals all over this country to collaborate with us on our campaigns and on our initiatives that we're working on locally as well as nationally. And so I'm excited to be at this organization because we have three values. So...

53:22
servant leadership and solution oriented. We come to this work with our entire soul. We come to this work with servant leadership, leading as servants, understanding that we're thinking and working in the best interest of our people. And more importantly, we come in with solutions, solutions, solutions.

53:52
Because as a society, we're more prone to talk about what the problems are, in opposed to what viable solutions exist that's going to move us forward as a country, as a society, as humanity. We all want the same thing. And the sooner we understand that, the better off we will be. But we are an organization that is committed.

54:20
to inviting and including everyone at this table that is focused on solutions to the problems and the issues that we face. Yeah, I mean, and I love that you guys are all coming at it from, it's not just an idea, it's not just something on paper. It's like you lived these experiences and that you can bring these.

54:49
solutions to the table. I think back to that judge that sentenced you and I bet she was just going by what was on, what was the rule book, what was in the sheet. Had she been incarcerated at some point, she probably might not have been allowed to have her job, but had she had that experience or someone in that, maybe your whole journey would be completely different. Maybe if you had a different

55:18
It's weird to think back of how someone like you at this level is affecting change and creating a better world for the people that come after you, despite all of the crap that you were put through because of one mistake that you had made when you were just a kid. I bet you, sounds like you're very in tune with yourself. I bet there are moments in which you think back to that.

55:48
16 year old version of you that had no idea what this journey you would be on would be like and how, I don't know, you created after this unfortunate sentencing, you created this life for yourself. I bet there's a lot of pride in that. It is. It is. And it is the reason why, as an organization and even as an individual, we're committed to investing in the leadership, in the development.

56:18
of leaders and individuals all across this country. It's the reason why we have one of the leading cohort trainings where we take directly impacted individuals whether they are directly impacted by the criminal legal system having served time in prison or whether they have a family member or friend who is currently incarcerated or they may even be victims of crime. We are...

56:45
looking to invest in their leadership and equip them with the tools and the resources that they need to effectuate change, to dream, to dream beyond their current situation, to implement innovative solutions to the issues and the problems that they face in their immediate surrounding and their broader surrounding.

57:14
We are committed to investing in the leadership of any and everyone that reaches out to us, that collaborates with us, that has similar experiences to that in which we have, because we understand that more than anything, people want hope, people want opportunity, and we want to give folks hope. We want to give them opportunity and we want to give them access to resources and power.

57:43
that is going to contribute to them bringing about transformational change, not only in their communities, not only in their homes, but in society at large. We want transformational relationships built. We want transformational change brought about. And we know that in order for us to do that, it's going to take all of us putting our heads together to challenge the systems in which has

58:11
brought a great deal of harm upon all of us. Now you guys are doing it, I'm super impressed. I had the opportunity to talk to three of you now that work there and the things that you guys bring to the table and the hopes and dreams that you have for the change that you will make in the future, I think is so admirable and inspirational. I kinda like to wrap up these conversations, wondering if you could go back to that 17 year old version of you and you can choose.

58:40
whether it was before the crime or after the crime, is there anything that this version of you knowing what you know now and the experiences that you had, is there anything that you would want to say to him?

58:53
There's so much that I would want to say to him.

58:59
But what I want to say to him more than anything is to be yourself. And the reason that I will say be yourself is because the reason why society is the way that it is is because you have everyone engaging in performative behavior.

59:27
performative behavior only because they want to be perceived a certain way. Everything that we do in society is for the applause, the acknowledgement and acceptance of someone else. But if we be ourself, be who we truly are inside, if we know who we truly are inside and we just be that

59:57
person?

01:00:00
We wouldn't be so inclined to doing things that are detrimental to our wellbeing or the wellbeing of our family, society, community, whatever.

01:00:14
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to say in fighting that societal pressure to be liked, to be accepted, to fit in, to not feel like you're othered, to not, you know, all those things and I think you're right. I think there's probably not much you could do to change your journey, but people are benefiting from the misfortunes that were placed upon your life.

01:00:44
It's hard to say that out loud and say it with some positivity to it, but you have taken a bad circumstance and created something that a lot of people wouldn't. Thank you for sharing your story with my audience and just with the world, because who knows we'll listen to it and be inspired by what you create. If people want to learn more about you or connect with you directly or-

01:01:10
I have the dream.org information, but if people want to connect with you, how can they do that? Learn more about you. Absolutely. Folks can connect with me via social media. They can follow me on Instagram at the fire underscore this time. They can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Sean Wilson senior. They can also follow me on Facebook, Twitter. I'm on most of the social media platforms, but I just want to say one thing before we hop off, Matt. Because I think it's...

01:01:40
very important that we understand that as humans, our life is always gonna be shifting. Our life is always gonna be shifting. And what's most important is, do we...

01:02:05
Do we languish in hopelessness or do we rise in hope to inspire others as they continue to go about life as it shift right in front of their eyes? I mean.

01:02:25
It's easy for you to say, it's a lot harder to act. And I think it kind of reminds me of the thought of, you know, a lot of things, it's not what happens to us, it's how we react to that and what we do with that. And your story, like I said at the very beginning, I was like, I can't imagine being or doing what you did. I feel like I would be that one because everything around me was telling me this is a terrible place and this is punishment.

01:02:55
I would, you know, like, and so I hate to say that I would be that one, but good for you for what you're doing, what you did for your for your 17 year old self all the way into your 30s. And then when you had the opportunity to leave that environment, you were able to create change for other people, which is a whole other ball game, you know, and good for you. And thank you so much for sharing this with with the life shift podcast and what I'm trying to do here.

01:03:25
Thank you, Matt. Anytime you want me to come on, man, let me know and I'll be more than happy to come and have this conversation. I appreciate it. For anyone listening, if you are enjoying these episodes, please share Sean's episode with someone that you think might need to hear it or connect him with someone that you might know that needs to talk to Sean and figure out some change in their world. With that, I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift Podcast. Thanks again, Sean.

01:04:05
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com