Rising from Divorce with Self-Awareness and Courage | Kate Walker

00:00
after this event coming back to my house where I got flaked on, you know, someone chose to go hang out with the guys where it was almost like a movie flash before my eyes, just all these different factors coming in and like the shame and the embarrassment and the, again, this communication that was so impossible. And there were some other, other factors that I'd been.

00:24
ignoring to a certain extent some financial things that had been occurring that just had been happening. So it's like a lot of different things imploding. And it was after that event at my house with just my mom and the kids where I just broke down in tears. I'm like, this is, it's all crashing down. I'm starting to see things for what they are and I can't paint them to look different.

00:51
I can no longer ignore them. They're right in my face and the brick wall is crashing on me and it's crashing hard. So this particular event might look like, oh, a little, you know, a preschool graduation, but it was everything at once. And I think it was that the final crux, I think was just this deep shame and embarrassment. My guest for this episode is Kate Walker. She's a business woman, an author, a parent. She's really navigated some significant life shifts to become the person that she is today.

01:21
Her journey is one of transformation and resilience. It's of facing challenges head first, making tough decisions, and all have ultimately led her to a life of personal and professional fulfillment. In our conversation, Kate opens up about the dichotomy of her life where her professional life was thriving while her personal relationships were full of struggles. She shares about her decision to end her marriage, a choice that demanded a great deal of strength, resilience, and especially self-awareness.

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Her story underscores the power of making tough decisions for personal happiness and wellbeing. I love the connection from the Life Shift's goal of these candid conversations, and the fact that Kate's new book is titled, A Candid Conversation, Lessons in Life, Love, and Leadership. Before we get into this conversation with Kate Walker, I wanted to thank all the Patreon supporters. As a solo podcaster, any support is greatly appreciated.

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And if you're interested in directly supporting the show, please check out patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast, and you can learn all about the tiers that are there. So without further ado, here's my candid conversation with Kate Walker. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:47
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Kate. Hey, Kate. Hi, I'm Matt. Thank you for joining me all the way on the other side of the country. I'm here in study Bay Area, California. Yes. Well, thank you for being a part of the LifeShift Podcast. We were chatting a little bit before recording that, you know, I'm over 100 episodes now. And I don't know if you know, but this, this podcast started as a class assignment.

03:16
in a master's degree program. I got a second master's degree during the pandemic because I was kind of bored and I wanted to like reactivate my brain a little bit. And I just took a random class that was about podcasting and it was an assignment. And here we are, like two years later. Here we are, that's amazing, congratulations. And what I love is that everyone's story is so different and lots of different experiences.

03:44
But what I'm seeing is how much we all have in common compared to how many differences we're told that we have or things that we fight against. And so I know that your story will have areas that resonate with a lot of people. So I appreciate you bringing yourself here to tell us this story. Absolutely, yes, thank you. Yeah, and congratulations, by the way, at this time of the recording.

04:10
You just released a book about two weeks ago. So congratulations. I did. It's out in the world, which is scary and crazy and exciting, all the things. So yes, thank you. I appreciate it. And tell us the name of it. The book is called A Candid Conversation. And I have a feeling you and I are going to have a candid conversation here today. But it's called A Candid Conversation, Lessons in Life, Love, and Leadership.

04:32
I love that. I loved it when you had someone reach out about you being on the show. And when I saw the name of your book, I was like, well, that's part of the tagline of my show. And it's basically candid conversations. I know. It's so funny. I know. I know. I'm excited to be here to have the candid conversation. I think it's so important too. And I think what I love about this journey on the podcast and having these conversations is I don't do...

04:58
what they tell you to do. They tell you to research everyone, come up with these questions, have everything like that. And what I found, the more that I lean into just being present, the more valuable the conversations become for myself, but also the more I hear from people behind the scenes that have listened to episodes and saying, oh, my gosh, when your guest said this or when you asked the guest this particular question, it's just so valuable to just be present. And

05:27
go where the conversation needs to go. Yeah, I agree. It just adds a little bit of authenticity to it and just a curiosity, an authentic curiosity. I think that's what I call it. So I like it. So I'm glad there's little research. Thank you for not researching me. No offense. I think just about your book title, the words leadership and candid conversations seem like opposing in my mind based on the experiences that I've had in my own professional journey.

05:56
and kind of the things that I had to unteach myself through this podcasting journey. And I also, I talk about like this active listening component a lot and how in the before podcast days, I would go to meetings or something like that. And it would always be me waiting for the next silence to say like the next most profound thing or like bring up a question that nobody had ever thought of before.

06:20
Whereas now I'm like, I'll think of that. And if I forget it by the time there's silence, it's okay. Yes, yes. Keep it natural, yeah. Keep it natural, keep it going. Yes, I agree. Awesome. Well, let's get into your story, but I think it'll be helpful to just, maybe if you could tell us a little bit without giving away too much, like who you are now and like what you do now, and then we'll have you paint the picture of what life was like before this moment that we're gonna talk.

06:47
Yes. Wow. What I do now. I feel like it's changing by the day. What I do now, my goodness. I mean, I've been a parent for a long time. I have a 20-year-old and a 17-year-old, so that's a big part of my story. And I share many stories in the book. So that will be ongoing forever. Being a parent, I'm also a businesswoman. I quit corporate back in April 2021 to start my own business. So I'm a solopreneur, entrepreneur.

07:12
doing my own business. At this point, I'm an author. The book, it's out now. It actually did hit Amazon bestseller status. That's a little nuts. Awesome. Yeah. I'm doing so many different things. I feel like I'm in a place of life where I just feel pretty good. I feel more and more settled in. Of course, we all have the things that we're working through, myself included, but just feeling like some decisions I've made leading up to this point were...

07:38
the right decisions. I mean, I know I'm a work in progress, but I feel like, yeah, many pivot points, many, many decision points have led me to where I am today. And some of these decisions were not easy. Yeah, it took a lot of courage and being brave on my side, you know, being brave to do certain things, but have led me to where I am today. And today I feel pretty good. Yeah. I mean, you talk about it, like, I mean, you can see the light in your face when you talk about where you are. I don't-

08:06
we'll find out where you were in just a minute. But it was not as much light as previous times. You can see, you know what I see like, I think it's confidence that I see in like, yeah, like I did that and I'm doing that and it feels good and rewarding in a way. So really interested if you could kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this shift that you kind of we've identified in.

08:35
in a conversation before this of how your life turned into what it is now. Yes. And I write in much more detail in the book. So I know we'll just catch just a little bit of it. But I grew up in Sacramento, California, and I, you know, I guess in hindsight, I was kind of a geek, kind of a dorky girl, really trying to fit in and and be popular. And that didn't quite really line up for me. But of course, lesson learned.

09:01
And I went away to college in San Diego, and that's where I really started to find more confidence in myself and confidence in building a career or starting to think about what that would look like. And for me, throughout my life so far, I really have felt like career has been a really enjoyable container for me and has been a place of meeting great people and having great opportunities and learning so, so much. And that's been, interestingly, just a very safe, compartmentalized.

09:30
space for me, career, that these are happy places for me. And in relationships, those were friendships and even family dynamics and romantic relationships. I'm not quite sure why. I mean, I'm still learning as I go, but those were more challenging spots for me. And in the book, I write about a relationship I got into in my early 20s where I met someone and began to date this person.

09:56
and ignored yellow flags and red flags for a lot of different reasons and then went on to marry this person. And that was a really, those were many bright times in that relationship, but also unfortunately many dark times where I had to do a lot of reflection about what I was doing and what I wanted to do and why am I doing and just beating yourself up.

10:21
and over analyzing and thinking and the stressing and all just so much going on. I'll give away the plot a little bit. It's a relationship that eventually doesn't end up, it ends up dissolving. So yeah, I talk about that. I also talk about the decision to how to end it, which was the most difficult decision I've ever made in my life was that because at that point in time there were children.

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in the mix and how do you go and destroy a family? So these are conversations in my head. Am I gonna destroy a family? Am I gonna ruin two people's lives? Like that feels horrible. So these were really, really intense decisions as part of my story. But again, interesting career, was having a joyful time, but relationships, my God, why is this so hard? What was your childhood like? Did you have like a normal, I don't know what normal means.

11:15
Were your parents together? Did you have this nice family life at home growing up? Well, in some ways, yes. I was actually, and I talk about this in the book too, I was introduced to a swim and tennis club when I was quite young. And now just talk about a confidence builder. I learned how to be competitive on a tennis court. I learned how to be a really excellent swimmer. There were all kinds of activities available and social activities. So that was another part of it. So that was a real bright spot.

11:41
My whole life could be a little bit challenging just because my parents were, seemed to be arguing a lot and trying to navigate just some difficult, just dealing with difficulty of parents arguing that sort of thing. But one thing that in hindsight years later I did realize is that something that I learned and something that I picked up is that my mom, she potentially could have left my dad, but she chose to stay.

12:08
But what I picked up was the messages I picked up were, you stay, you hang in there, you be a team member, you're loyal. So that was a message that became deeply ingrained in me through friendships in life or all different kinds of relationships, or I'm very, very loyal, and to a fault where I just stay and I stick it out because I'm a good friend, I'm loyal, I'm a good team member.

12:32
even when all the signs are blaring that the relationship may have ruck its course or may not be the right thing for now. So that's one thing that I've learned from my childhood was, you know, just that deep loyalty that you always, you just stay. Yeah, I think there's also like, I think there's people that see homes that are like, I don't know, not as stable as we want them to be. Or there's fighting or there's things that feel uncomfortable.

13:01
And then we as kids kind of assume this like, well, that's not gonna be me. So let me just show everyone on the outside that everything's nice. I'll just deal with the stuff on the inside. I can't show anyone else that I also failed. So like, why would I get divorced or why would I break up or why would I do any of these? To me, your story, like it makes sense why work was so wonderful too, because...

13:28
Like you said, it's compartmentalized, but also there's like, you can prove yourself there very easily. It's all like there are ways, there are check marks, there are, you know, there's assumed milestones. There's things that you can like measure against. It feels like for me, very like I was the same way. My parents divorced when I was like five or six and then my mom was killed in an accident when I was eight. And so I had to move with my...

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dad who was not the primary parent, he was thousands of miles away, and a lot of what I assumed as that kid and the responsibilities that I assumed for myself were, I have to be perfect. I have to do everything right. Or my dad is going to abandon me too. So it's a little different, but I can also see how, like, you-

14:23
I'm not gonna be them is kind of a feeling that someone like in your situation could possibly assume. Does that resonate? Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, it is. And I don't, I mean, I guess one thing that came out of that was I'm not going to be them in the sense that, I run a very drama-free household. Like we're not gonna have any drama. It's if the milk is spilled, it's okay. If the glass breaks, it's all right.

14:51
Those things weren't all right in my childhood home. There were just such drama, if anything like that, were to occur. So I do have learnings and takeaways like that. But really, I haven't analyzed my family life, my youth, until I started writing this book. Oh, I bet. Because I'm like, well, as I started writing some of it, why didn't I make the decisions I made? Where does this come from? And you have to, sometimes, if you're willing, go back in time and explore some of those things, which can be...

15:21
painful or embarrassing. I mean, I never talked about it. I painted a shiny picture about my family life. It's great. And they were painting a shiny picture and everything's great. And it wasn't until I can write in the book, I'm like, you know, I think it's time to just bring forward the things that impacted me and I'm not, I'm not speaking ill of anyone in particular. I'm just, I'm talking through the lens of my five senses when I saw what I heard, what I experienced. So just my experience and how it...

15:50
how it shaped my personality. Were you accomplishment driven? Yes. Okay. So it was like a proof point. Like you, something inside maybe subconscious was like, I need to do the next thing. Oh, yeah. So that everyone can see that I'm okay. Oh, yes. And there was a lot of positivity in the household if I was winning something. If there, yeah. So as a competitive tennis player, when I was winning, the household was light and it was

16:20
fun and we were joyful. That's a lot of responsibility. It is. It is. But then if you're losing, it's like, what is wrong? You're not practicing enough. So those are those are things that became ingrained from me. Like I like winning. That's the way to go. Like we win and then it's just like easy and light. It's an easy and light environment if we win. There's yeah. That may make sense to me. I talked to a lot of people about this, like checklist life of like you just do the next thing and everyone, you know, like.

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that's the approval that you're seeking. And then the next thing doesn't bring the exact approval that you were hoping for. So like, oh, maybe it's the next one. Maybe it's the next one after that. It is. I mean, in hindsight, it's dysfunctional. There's some irregularity to it. But I think it's common. I don't think it's. Oh, I think it is too, yes. I think it's more common of times gone by than it is as much now. Potentially, yes. I think people are a little bit, you know.

17:17
I'm sure there is still that, but I feel like, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and I feel like everything was like swept under the rug and like you only talk about the good things you only talk about. Yeah, successes. Yeah, everything that's bad is like behind we closed the door first. That's right. We talk about it. That's right. Yes. So as you were going through this this relationship.

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Did you see these signs before you got married? Did you see these signs before you had kids, when you had kids? Was this like a, I'm gonna fix this someday or I'm just gonna ride it out? Yeah, it was, boy, so many different feelings and thoughts. I mean, this was a person that I grew to be best friends with. Of course, you're spending this much time together, you're a committed couple, you become best friends. And yes, there were flags, but it's also like, well, this is my best friend and I'm very loyal and I'm a team player.

18:12
And we just like, you just, the other thing too, is marriage being a kind of a fantasy. It didn't seem like a fantasy back then, but it was a fantasy. All my friends are getting married and they're having these fabulous weddings. And I felt like I was a little behind, you know, kind of last in line. So really wanting to have that achievement. That's an achievement too. That's a checkbox.

18:35
So ignoring some things that maybe should not have been ignored and there was a breakup and I talk about this in the book as well, there was a breakup that really did feel like the final final, like this is it. This is really it and it felt like it was really it. And then September 11 happened, which felt like the end of the world. It felt like everything is what's happening, where is the stability? So at that point we came back together to talk about life.

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and fell back into the friendship and the love. And it's like, gosh, maybe we should do this because we've been together a long time. We have the history. So we decided to move forward to marriage from after September 11th. Thought that that was maybe a sign that we should be together when, I write about this in the book too, maybe we should've gotten counseling. But that did not occur. It became a little bit more of getting back into the fantasy of.

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you know, let's come back together and gosh, let's not wait another minute. Let's go get married. Do you feel like you were convincing yourself at any point or were you okay? So you were kind of fighting yourself as well. Like, definitely. I mean, when there's, there's different red flags. I mean, and there's a lot of, you know, well, I'm going to change, oh, I'm going to change to, I'm going to adjust this, oh, I'm going to adjust this to fantasy. And when things were, and I again, talk about this in the book, but you, you, your inner knowing knows.

20:00
your inner knowing knows that something is wrong, something is off, something is not meant to be. So it's really this fight. And I guess you call it ego wanting the now, wanting the satisfaction right now, and then the deeper intuition saying, I don't know that this is really it. But again, that kind of the fantasy like, well, I want the fantasy. So let's get in that lane. Let's get into the fantasy lane. So yeah, there were definitely signs.

20:29
And do you think those decisions were for yourself or for the perception of you? Both. That others had? Both. Yeah, both. Because I could see how, you know, like the things you were talking about growing up and those kind of things. It's like, well, other people also need to see that you're in this quote unquote happy relationship or yeah, they need to see the proof. Definitely, definitely. And what better proof than getting married? I mean, my goodness. Yeah. Well, and I can imagine to...

20:57
I've had moments in which I felt like, oh well, I do kind of feel like I'm failing at something. And then I like convince myself that I'm not in some kind of way to like, to circumnavigate that pain. Yeah, definitely. I think these are natural human behaviors. And unless we take the time to really go deep and think about it, which I wasn't, I was seeing therapists.

21:23
before, I think before September 11, really trying to analyze it. And it was maybe by way of some of those conversations that led me to say, there are red flags here. Maybe we need to go in a different direction. And then, you know, the other life circumstances happen. So it's, you know, it's tough being human. All kinds of emotions are happening. Well, and we were also sold growing up, and I hope people aren't sold this now, but that marriage was like a successful check mark. Like,

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married and like till you die, that's all you can do. That's your only option. You can't, you know, like you can't be an old maid. You can't be divorced. You can't be, you know, like it was all these things that we were sold and it's like, but people change. Like people change. They do, they do. I mean, it's just as a human, like you said, it's just, it's tough being a human and the responsibilities that we kind of as.

22:17
absorb or take on ourselves? Yes, and like you talk about those checkboxes and the check marks, like, well, I've got to do this to be perceived in the right way. Is I've got to do this to be perceived in the right way? Yeah, it's it can be a trap. So how did this relationship kind of build to its like volcano like moment? Was there like, yeah, having two young children, I mean, and I love my children.

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to pieces, especially when they're young, those are hard years, really hard years, caretaking and nurturing and loving and trying to find the right preschool with all these different things. And while all that was going on, we were also in the process of, we were living in San Francisco at the time in a flat that served so many beautiful purposes for about a decade and then it's like, okay, this is getting too small. So in the process of trying to move and find a better place, and ended up in a fixer upper of all.

23:10
challenging things to be a part of. So the Fixer Upper, I think was a real, real challenging time with having young children and trying to live in this place while a remodel was happening and the money getting sucked out to go toward all the things. It was just a really, really difficult time. And I mean, then I think priorities started shifting as far, I was...

23:37
the caretaker and a moneymaker, and then we have someone over here that's in charge of a home reconstruction. It just became fragmented, I guess, might be the best way to put it, a lot of fragments. And difficulty, I'll never maybe crack this code, but a lot of difficulty in communication, difficulty, I write about this in the book, difficulty that just didn't even make sense to me, where I couldn't even figure out what it was. And...

24:04
maybe it's Well, meanwhile, you're trying to on the outside look like a good mom.

24:34
Yes. Looked like a good wife, looked like a professional in whatever field you were living in. No pressure on you at all. No pressure, right. Right. Exactly. No pressure. Yeah. Those were probably the most pressure packed days. I mean, years after that, raising your children and trying to be a single or not trying, being a single parent and making the money, raising the kids. Yeah. So those are some challenging days.

25:03
So what was this moment that you knew, okay, like he's either sabotaging this, there's communication problems, this house is a money pit, I'm sure, I'm picturing the movie, The Money Pit. What was the moment that kind of brought you to be like, wait a second, this isn't the life that I wanna live. Yeah, there were so many factors, and I'm just trying to keep it going day to day. And there was an event.

25:31
where there was, for my second son, there was a preschool graduation, which seemed so light and breezy, a preschool graduation. And this preschool graduation was on a May day, sunny, gorgeous morning, and all the happy faces of the children. And there was a plan that, there was a plan for how the family would come together on that day, including some grandparents coming down to help celebrate, so.

25:58
I had in my mind how this day would unfold for a little while at least. And the day just someone showing up late, someone trying to leave early, I write about this in the book, it was my mom who was down for the day and the plan after this event didn't go as planned and it just led to...

26:24
Misunderstandings and embarrassment. And that was it that it was after this event coming back to my house where I got flaked on, you know, someone chose to go hang out with the guys where it was almost like a movie flash before my eyes, just all these different factors coming in and like the shame and the embarrassment and the again, this communication that was so impossible. And there were some other other factors that I'd been.

26:53
ignoring to a certain extent some financial things that had been occurring that just had been happening. So it's like a lot of different things imploding and it was after that event at my house with just my mom and the kids where I just broke down in tears. I'm like, this is, it's all crashing down. I'm starting to see things for what they are and I can't paint them to look different.

27:20
I can no longer ignore them. They're right in my face and the brick wall is crashing on me and it's crashing hard. So this particular event might look like, oh, a preschool graduation, but it was everything at once. And I think it was that the final crux, I think, was just this deep shame and embarrassment of being ditched after this thing and just a lot of shame and realizations that I thought.

27:49
It's decision time. And the shame came from your mother seeing that your, I mean, we're saying this other person, your husband, or at the time your husband did not go or he just didn't participate in all the events. Yeah, so it was supposed to be a family morning and I mean, I'll just share, you know, he arrives late and didn't seem to really wanna be there and that was trying to leave early. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, we've got the thing back at the house. It's like, what?

28:19
a tea time, I gotta go. And then it leads to picking a fight with me, so prompting anger when disappointment in me. It's like, well, how easy is it to ditch someone who's upset and angry? Well, gosh, that gives a good excuse to go do something else. So just pushing buttons, pushing my buttons to upset me. And we just talked about painting shiny pictures of...

28:45
you know, what might be happening, but really behind the closed door or something else is happening. So I guess my mom came behind the curtain, came behind the closed doors. It's like, hey, this is not only this is what happened today, but here are some other things that I've been just hiding and not really willing to talk about. And today I am willing to talk about it. And today I'm willing to talk about what needs to happen next. So do you think it's because your mom was there?

29:10
Do you think if your mom wasn't there, like if it was just you were gonna go home with your kids and your husband was supposed to go, but he decided to probably do what he's done before, do you think it would have been different if she wasn't there? That's a great question. And as I sit here thinking about it, I think that maybe her presence was divine intervention, for lack of a better word, that's kind of what's coming in, but her being there did allow me to verbalize, vocalize. And I do think sometimes in having raising,

29:40
small children and being just so busy that we can internalize a lot, hold it in. And I'm definitely that feels comfortable for me holding things in. So I think her being there probably was a release of sharing, staying these things out loud. Yeah, that's a great question. You also couldn't hide it. I couldn't hide it. It was right there. And the other thing too was if something like this had happened to me previously, it's like, oh, okay, oops, yeah.

30:09
That's all right. It's like, no, no, no, no, this is not, no, this is not, we're not going to play that anymore. I'm not, I'm not covering, I'm not covering for someone's behavior anymore. That's done. Before that, did your mother ever see any of these cracks in your, in your existence of these kinds of things? After you moved out of the house or whatever, after you were a kid, did she ever see any of these breaks? In this relationship?

30:35
in anything that you had done like outside of the house, like you made a mistake, she saw it. Was this like the first time that something looked like, oh, you aren't handling this? Yeah, that's a good question too. I think that they'd been used to, because like I explained earlier, I was a little bit programmed on achievement. Achievement feels good and we like achievement. We get accolades for achievement. So I like to be in the achievement lane so that things, you know, I looked good and things were going well. I was getting the achievements,

31:05
was definitely, I would say, the event, the thing, where she saw me in not achievement mode, where things were really unraveling. So I think that the magnitude of it was not something she'd seen with me before, because generally things were like, oh, okay. Or you covered it up enough, said it looks okay. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

31:33
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting how certain things could happen before and they, you know, things just go on as normal. But then you add another figure or another component to it. And it's just like the perfect confluence of events that that kind of allow you. The beauty of seeing what's really happening and really breaking and understanding that

32:02
all of it is okay. And all of it can be something that you can work towards, but you have to be honest with it. And you have to like, set it all out here and be like, not as perfect as I maybe made it, but you know what, it's mine. Absolutely. And I think the other thing too, is it can be hard to feel like a failure, especially if you feel like an achiever, it's like

32:25
But you're not, but that wasn't. And that's the beauty of getting a little older and wiser is that it's like, wait a minute, that's, I'm not a failure. That wasn't a failure. So let's just ditch that limited thinking and self-sabotaging thinking. So yeah, but it can be hard when you've been, when you don't like to fail and then something of this magnitude, it can really kind of knock you, knock you down. And it, it does. And it takes a while to

32:53
wrap your mind around, wrap your mind around that it's okay, and you're going to be okay. Well, and I like how you kind of described that this, you know, this preschool graduation might seem to other people like, you know, like this little thing, like it's not. It is it's big, you know, it's something that you were probably looking forward to, it was probably something, it was an achievement, it was an accomplishment that you're

33:18
had graduated from, you know, like there is still that little element of a checklist of a definitely see what's happening but also the opportunity to show everyone around you that look my family's coming together we're celebrating as everything's good and it turns out that it was like actually even better because even though it was a big mess for you and it was a big like like

33:42
it did something for you. It cracked you in a way that you needed. Absolutely. It was the, oddly, strangely, weirdly, it was the biggest turning point of making a decision. And you look back at it and you're like, yeah, preschool graduation, but you know. I know, I know. You should be, everyone should be so lucky to have these moments in which.

34:02
They're like an awakening kind of a moment. That's exactly, that's a great way to put it. It was an awakening and it can feel like, again, it was messy and all that. And it's not until you get a little further down the road where you can look back and say, oh, okay, all right, yeah. How much, how far down the road did it take for you to look back at that moment in kind of like this, like, wow, I'm kind of glad that happened, not.

34:29
the specific circumstances, but I'm glad that I was, my eyes were opened at that moment. I mean, really getting all the way through, it took years. I would say, I mean, unfortunately, sadly, when the mutual decision was made to dissolve the marriage and I got a little bit down the road, it did feel like a relief because the tension had become so difficult, so challenging on a day-to-day basis, so when I left that environment, it's like, oh my goodness, like I have a chance to.

34:58
catch my breath. So that it just, it's a long, I'm definitely not one to turn on a dime. I process things. It takes me a while. It takes me a while to wrap my mind around something or to get over something. So it took a long while. And it was, I write about, I pulled this out of my memory when writing the book just to talk about a situation. But until I was talking with you, it's like, what was the kind of pivot point to make that decision? It was this event.

35:28
that really was it. After you had that moment with your mom or those moments with your mom and you had that, did you feel any kind of, was there any bit of relief? Cause I know there's probably super overwhelming of all the things that now you need to do and deal with, but was there any lightness? Was there anything that felt that way? Yes, for sure. Because I think also that looping in, in

35:56
difficulty and looping in despair and looping in, what am I gonna do? And it just, the sadness, like spiraling in that sadness. It's a really difficult place to live on a daily basis. And of course your kids will lift you up and there are absolutely moments of joy, but it just was such a deep sadness. And that's really probably not good for the mind, body and soul, all the parts to live in a place like that. So.

36:26
Yes, once that event had happened and I had the realizations, then I believe that that was almost like a key unlocking saying, okay, it's decision. You know the decision. We don't have to loop in despair and just loop and loop and loop. We now we know. And now we take some hard steps. So a relief followed by, okay, now we take hard steps. But yes, for sure. A relief.

36:55
Well, and the fact that you were always so comfortable in a work setting, did that help? Because you knew the steps? Like, you knew like, okay, let me make my list and let's go. I think that's very helpful, having those skills, kind of the get stuff done skills, the checklist skills, the researching skills, you got to pick up the phone, you got to look, you got to go online, you got to do the things. Did that give you confidence? I think it did.

37:23
Yes, and I know that there are many people out there that it feels very overwhelming when you might reach a conclusion like that. And even for me, even though I had some administrative capabilities and skills to get these things done, one step at a time, it's just one step at a time. One of my next steps was A, filing for divorce, so trying to find the right person to do that with and then B, where do I go next?

37:53
So just trying to get through those two next steps was my to-do list, which felt quite monumental, but just one small step at a time to move it forward to finding that peace. And I came to realize, I write about this in the book too, I came to realize, well, what am I looking for? What do I want? I want peace. Oh yeah. So we're fighting. Yeah. My next steps were, this feels hard, but I know it's...

38:22
moving me toward peace, finding peace. Yeah, because it sounds like, you know, your life maybe not every day, but you are waking up in in a constant fight, whether that was against yourself to like, convince yourself that everything was okay, or like, literally just like fighting the circumstances around you. Yeah, it's exhausting. Yeah, fighting reality and fighting like I talked about earlier, fighting what happens to the children.

38:49
That was the biggest fight. What does this look like? That was a really hard one, a really deep one to contemplate. Yeah. You know, I have some friends that started a divorce registry. Oh. And essentially, it celebrates people that have to make these big decisions. Oh, wow. You know, because making the choice to get a divorce is a big decision.

39:15
But it doesn't mean you're a failure. It doesn't mean all the, it's a big decision and people should be celebrated for making really hard decisions. And so they started this registry because people have to start over. People have to do things. And you know, like we have bridal registries and all these things, but why don't we help people when they're making these other big decisions? I love that. I think that that's a beautiful service. I hope you drop that in the show notes. Yeah, okay, good. They have experts that.

39:43
like a group of experts that if someone going through whatever big life-changing moment, you know, started with divorce, but all sorts of life-changing moments and, you know, people need help. Like you needed to know who to go to for the divorce paperwork. Absolutely. The divorce, the marriage process is fun and fantasy and all those things and everybody coming out to celebrate and celebrate you and all that. The divorce process is quite lonely. Quite lonely. Only because...

40:12
society, we've made divorce like this taboo thing. Yes. And it shouldn't be. It's just another contract ending in some capacity. It is. That's a beautiful way to put it. It is. We attach so much to it. And I don't know. I was a product of, not a product, but my parents were divorced. And I was fine. I mean, I was fine until my mom died. And then things were crazy. But

40:38
I'm still fine, you know, like I still survive that. And I think so many people, probably yourself, you were just like worried about the kids. But as long as there's still that love and the care and the parents are caring for them, I think the kids, they don't need to see their parents, you know, like it doesn't need to be in this particular way that we're painting this picture. And so good on you for making that decision in that moment when it was so hard. Was there like a...

41:07
Was there a time after that where you kind of noticed yourself feeling different? Not the actions, not the things, but like you felt like lighter? Yes, yes. Yes, I was going to say spring in my step. Yes, it took me. It took me a little while. It's interesting. I bought a doormat after we parted ways and I don't even know where I got the doormat, maybe Target, but the doormat said peace.

41:38
And yeah, I put the doormat out and it said peace and that was fine. And maybe even a year later, I looked down at the doormat and I was like, oh, I am experiencing peace. Okay. Yeah. Yes, I'm going to be okay. So like I said, I can't turn on a dime. It takes me a while to move through things, but there can be realizations where it's like, oh, I feel happy today. What was probably a foreign feeling.

42:06
Just that the quiet of it, just the, like literally the piece, just the piece of my days was palpable. Yeah. Because you could make decisions for yourself that were of value and not of protection. Yes, yes. And not in a physical sense. I'm just saying like protection of like, whatever was happening, you know, it sounds like you were able to like move through life.

42:33
with things you wanted to do? Yes, absolutely. And I've really tried to employ, for lack of a better word, in coming out of childhood and all that, a real drama-free home. I mentioned that earlier. But that's so important to me, that it's very low-key, very, the emotions are, I mean, we all have our moments, but just everything is just taking the temperature down.

42:58
we're going to take the temperature down. And again, if the glass breaks or the milk spills or the thing, whatever, we're going to be okay. So that was something that I very intentionally brought into my household was we're going to run this in a very different way and it's going to feel very, very good and very calm. Is that hard to do to start with? Probably so. Feels so counterintuitive for me. Like

43:22
Oh wait, that doesn't matter. I feel like I'm convincing myself. But good on you and good for teaching your kids this as well, that spilled milk is really not anything to cry over. It really, I mean, spilled milk when I was a kid, it was a very, very big deal. Very big deal. And then you get into greater, bigger things like a glass breaking. I read about in the book, we had this garbage disposal and when you peel potatoes...

43:46
the garbage disposal would just, I don't know, something would happen to it, it would break down and like water is flying everywhere and all this thing and then all chaos. I mean, if that, you just never wanted the garbage disposal to break down, because it would be a hard, a hard like week maybe or longer. And you know, it just, those things, I just can't let things like that bother me. I have to really take it all in stride and really measure like, is this really a big deal or not?

44:17
Well, I mean, we look back at those moments and it wasn't ever really about the broken glass. That's right. It wasn't ever about the garbage disposal. That's right. It was whatever your parents happened to be harboring from, you know, and I think it's wonderful though that you have the wherewithal now to look back on these moments and decide for yourself how you're going to move forward and then your kids, by nature of what you're doing, are absorbing that as well.

44:44
So it's not a reactive. It's just kind of like, this is just how it is and how it should be. That's right. And so they can make those decisions. Yeah, and to your point, these are now choices. And sometimes when you're in a living situation, some different kinds, or there may not be as many choices on, I'm not saying you have to go get divorced to have choices, but you can have choices no matter the situation. I believe that you need to determine what are the choices that make me feel good.

45:12
What are the choices that make me feel peaceful? What are the choices that make me feel supported? And then working to get there, whether that means you can make your own adjustment internally, personally, or you can go have a conversation where you can talk with someone, have your needs met, have your needs met. So there are choices no matter the circumstances you're in. And these are realizations that oddly and strangely, I didn't put these together until later in life.

45:42
Yeah, it's our lives. We can do what we want to really, as long as we're not hurting other people. That's right, that's right. And I think that we have to realize that we can make whatever choice we wanna make, and as long as it's obviously, as long as it's safe and no one else is getting hurt. Yeah, I talk about in the book life design and that might feel a little.

46:03
sparkly, a little too sparkly or something, but it really is about designing your life. And again, that can be just small internal changes or having conversations that help design your life in a way or finding podcasts that help you have realizations or books, or there's all kinds of ways to go and get support for making these choices. Are you more thankful that your mom was at the preschool graduation or that your husband did what he did?

46:32
or your ex-husband. I think it had to go how it went. I think it all happened in divine timing, for lack of a better word. I think she was in the right place at the right time. He maybe did what he needed to do at the right place at the right time. I think it all, I think it happened how it needed to happen. Yeah, because I mean, if she wasn't there, maybe it would have gone differently. If he didn't do what he did, maybe that would have gone differently, and maybe you would be in a different portion of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was interesting to think like...

47:01
We're all like one decision away from a totally different life. Isn't it crazy? It's yeah. Yeah. What's the biggest difference between like, I don't know, early relationship version of Kate with this particular person and the Kate now like in the way that you operate? That is a great question. I think I'm definitely a work in progress. I'm not sure if I'm over indexing. I'm being really too, too stringent on what I'm looking for. I'm actually, I mean, I'm divorced. I'm not in a relationship right now.

47:31
But it's taken me a while to really reflect on what will work for me now, because I really felt I thought I knew what would work for me back then. I still am unlearning some behaviors that I had learned from just growing up and all of those different things and societal expectations. But it's really being true to what will make me feel good. And I keep going back to the work piece. Like...

48:00
What, what, even friendships, what relationship am I, am I going to go into? There's mutual respect, mutual kindness. There's, there's peace, there's a feeling of peace and ease and values aligned, all those different things. So I'm much more thoughtful these days on, on any level with any kind of interaction that I have and that I want to feel good about the, the relationship and the dynamic.

48:27
It almost sounds like the older version of you, like the years ago version of you was very much a people pleaser. Yes. And like sacrifice yourself for others in a way that, you know, would make, in turn kind of makes you look good, like this, you know, in that way, but also like you were doing things that you didn't really want to do because other people needed that from you. And now it's like, maybe I'll do that once in a while, but it does need to serve me in a way that is...

48:56
harmonious with how I'm feeling and the things around me. Yeah, so I think what I learned as I get older, I've talked a little bit about this, but it's like what decisions make me feel good? What relationships make me feel good? What type of interactions make me feel good? So I'm trying to, and of course there's hard things we have to do and all that, but really trying to- Life? Yeah, life, life, we never know what's coming next. I've had a bizarre, 2023, all kinds of curve balls, unexpected, but-

49:25
Yeah, just trying to reset back to that. It's like, okay, you're angry or that happened or you feel wronged. Okay, let's try to reset and get back to that place that feels better. So it's a lot of intentional work. It's not, it's intentional. I'll leave it at that. It's intentional work. Why did you write your book? I wrote my book. When I initially started writing the book, it was about the relationship. And when I started writing the book, I started writing it years ago. It was...

49:55
I had more of a victim hat on, I'll be honest with you, a little bit more of a victim hat, and really thought I could be writing a cautionary tale for women on the kinds of things that they should avoid, the kinds of things that they should look out for, the kind of red flags. And as I continued writing and got probably more professional advice, it then was, okay, the story is important, but what are the lessons? So I really began to anchor to the stories that help tell the important parts, but then

50:24
The lessons are even more important on what I can share based on my experience to give someone an aha moment or an insight or a reflection. Some things that I wish I would have known about or heard about or talked about back when I was going through some of these things. So I'm hoping that the book is a tool for reflection and empowerment. So I wrote the book to inspire at the end of the day. I wrote the book to...

50:51
hopefully get a reaction and I have from women saying, wow, these are things I haven't thought about in a long time, or I'm having reflections that I haven't had a long time, or this is making me think differently about something, or this is a book that I wanna give my daughter so she can read it as she gets into early parts of her life. So it's surreal, some of the feedback, because when you're writing the book, you're just in it. And to actually have an impact, it's insane.

51:20
Do you feel that writing it helped you more than you expected it to? Because it sounds like you had different versions of it. Well, it's interesting because I don't know that the writing part was cathartic. I almost felt like, and I can't even describe it, I've been giving more thought to this. There was an impetus. There was something driving me to keep going. I don't know if it's my inner being, maybe something on a very, very deeper level. Just keep going.

51:50
keep going, something a little deeper. Spiritual might be too strong of a word, but there was something, it's like, oh well, keep going. So kept writing, kept doing the thing. And it really wasn't until I actually had to move in 2023, which was unexpected. So I had to go through the garage and this closet and that storage bucket and found all of my journals from probably a couple of decades of journals talking about this thing and complaining about that thing and the to-do list for that thing.

52:19
And as I was moving and I was coming down the home stretch of writing the book, I thought, you know, I've captured what I wanted to capture the book as far as maybe historical perspective or my story capturing, documenting. So I ended up, talk about it in the book, I'm giving away all the, all the, all the cliff notes on the book, but talk about it in the book. I threw every single journal out, everything, any kind of note, any kind of list, any kind of anything, I threw it all out because I also was, had the feeling.

52:50
You don't need this anymore. You've been through it, you've done it, you've lived it, you've captured it. Now you've written a book. I felt like releasing the journals was releasing a stagnant energy. And I know people like Oprah keep their journals for decades and decades and decades as historical artifacts. And I measured that, I weighed that when I was looking at these gigantic stacks of journals. Like, am I supposed to save journals?

53:17
Am I a bad person because I throw journals in the trash? It feels weird. It feels like I shouldn't be doing it. But when I threw, and I kind of went, I browsed through most every journal to see, yeah, it just felt like, you know what, now's the time to lighten, to just, to lighten. And it did feel, so I think it wasn't until I threw the journal, that I had captured everything in the book that I wanted to capture, threw away the journals, I'm like, okay, now I feel peace.

53:47
Yes. Yeah, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that they serve their purpose. Those journals, they did what they needed to at the time. I think so. You were able to get those things out and that was your choice to toss them. And I think that's wonderful and you should be celebrated for that. I don't think there should be any kind of thought beyond that. I think it's important that we do the things that feel right. And it sounds like that's kind of the space you're in these days is, you know, choosing the things that are.

54:17
best aligned with how you're feeling and the piece that you're looking for. Yeah. I think, I think it's wonderful. I was curious about the, you know, as far as like some people write their book with, you know, and there's a lot of personal components in it and it is really cathartic and I find writing to be that way for me, I find it. It looks much worse when it's, I mean, it looks much worse in my head than it does on the paper. Yes. And you're like, okay, that's deal. I can deal with that. I can.

54:48
I can handle that up here. It feels like everything's going out of control. Yeah. So I was curious. It's interesting that that though the release really came after the fact. I know. Is that strange? Yes. I never I never would have guessed it. But is it weird when it went out into the world, though? Yes. Was there a piece there? No, no, no. But now that it's out. Yes. And the way that my experience worked is is we had Cree readers for the book.

55:17
So I had to choose a handful of pre-readers. And that was a very, very nerve-racking point of this group of people is going to see this book. And I felt like it was going to be, I really didn't even know what type of response or reaction I would get from the book. I didn't even know. I couldn't even wrap my mind around it. So the thing goes out to the pre-readers and I really expected just complete silence. Like they would take two weeks to read it and they made me write what they thought about it. And I just didn't know.

55:46
And instead I started getting texts from people that I knew who were reading the book saying, oh my God, like I can't, this is really good. I'm like, what? Like, are you serious? Like I just didn't even know what to say. So it was very surreal. And as we, so October 24th was the release date. And it's like, okay, no turning, and I knew there was no turning back. And I knew that, but it was very, it was very scary.

56:13
to especially, I call it a candid conversation. I share, and you and I have had a candid conversation. I share a lot of personal stories. Like I can only share these stories in hopes of serving women or serving communities, serving people who might benefit from the story. So I kept anchoring back to that. Like, it's okay, it's okay. We're helping people. So really trying to stay focused on that. Like this serves a bigger purpose.

56:41
And maybe it serves a bigger purpose than I even know right now. So we'll see. I'm sure. Well, and you also mentioned that you're not like a turn on the dime kind of person too. So maybe six months from now, you're gonna look back and go, wow, this has healed me in different ways that I didn't expect as well. That's a great way. I love that. I'm gonna write that down. Yeah. I think it's super inspiring when people put real, honest thoughts out into the world.

57:10
especially now because so many of us were conditioned to hide those, keep those behind closed doors. Don't tell people when you're feeling a certain way. You can be happy, you can be mad, you can't be anything else. And so I admire you for putting that out into the world. You will inevitably help someone more than someone, but what I'm saying is that there will be people that will resonate with it. Just as when hearing this episode now.

57:37
something you said is gonna hit someone at the right moment in time, just like that confluence of events at your son's preschool graduation day, everything happened at the right time for you to kind of move forward into this space. So I love to kind of wrap up these conversations with a question, and I'm wondering if, like this version of Kate could go back to Kate who's like day before.

58:01
your son's preschool graduation, getting everything together, making sure this idyllic day is going to come together. Is there anything that this more peaceful version of Kate could whisper in her ear or let her know? I mean, this sounds maybe a little corny or cheesy, but honestly, it's like the best is yet to come.

58:22
Do you think she would have believed you? No. Okay. No. Cause it was just like, I'm just living day to day. It was too, way too hard, way too hard. It did not feel like, and that was part of the decision making process too. Like I need to make these decisions and the best will not come. The worst will come. So yeah, I think, I think always spring. It's like, no, no, no, the best is yet to come. Just wait. Yeah. Because if we go back to the beginning of this episode where you were describing who you are now.

58:50
and the things that you do now and how you feel about everything that's existing in your world now, there was such lightness. And when you talk about the experiences and what you went through around that time period of that moment, there was not that light. As you were telling those stories, the light, even when you're telling it now. I can feel it. I can feel it. And I know part of this talking about the book, I do have to go back in time.

59:18
And these are heavy stories, they're heavy stories. So thank goodness I was able to get through it. But yeah, it's heavy. And I again, hope I can be in service to others going through something stellar and they can realize the best is yet to come. Yeah, oh, totally. Just to relate to that feeling of like going back, I think my mom would go crazy if she knew that like every week I was telling people.

59:46
that she died, you know, like I feel like telling the world of how broken I was when she died and how it took me 20 years to like grieve for loss. Absolutely. But these are the important things because it's not an easy process. Grieving a relationship, grieving a dead person, you know, like these things are not easy. And the more we talk about it, the less people will feel alone in their circumstances and understand that there's something out there. That's exactly it.

01:00:15
Yes, yes. And we know these days, social media looks so shiny and people sharing their accomplishments. And sometimes I just have to turn it off. I was like, I just can't. I can't. I just can't. Well, and to that point, I share all the bad things too. I share when I fail, when I break things, when I'm not feeling my greatest, because I think it's important that people know.

01:00:38
that they're not alone because I know other people are feeling the same way. Yes. Isn't it fascinating that sometimes on social media, it's those honest shares that get the most views or the most likes, people being authentic and being real and being sad or upset or frustrated that people sharing. I get tons of messages behind the scenes of like, thank you for sharing that. I feel the same today. Yes. Yes. And I just needed to know that. Yes. We're not in it alone. We are not. And that's why we have these conversations. I think it's...

01:01:04
It's super important and thank you for taking the time today. If there are people that want to check out your book or get in your orbit, what's the best way to like find you in the space that you want them to find you in? Yes. Yes. Thank you for asking. OK, the book is out in the world. It's called A Candid Conversation, Lessons of Life, Love, Leadership. I'm the author, Kate Walker. So if you want to check out the book, I would love that. Come be part of my community by way of the book. My website, KateWalker.com. If you want to know how to potentially work with me, you can find me there.

01:01:34
I am on the socials, Instagram, at the Kate Walker. I'm on LinkedIn, Kate Walker, comma, S-P-H-R. And if you do come and find me, let me know where you found me. Did you find me by way of Matt's podcast here? Let me know. People come in and I don't know where you found me. So let me know, where do you find me? And let's be friends. Awesome. And we will include all those links in the show notes so people can...

01:01:57
link out to that. And I will certainly now connect with you now that I can learn more about you. Now that we've had this conversation. So thank you for just being a part of this and just being a part of whatever we're creating here with the Lifeshift Podcast. Yes. Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate your thoughtfulness with your questions. So it has been such a pleasure. Awesome. Thank you so much. If you are listening and you're enjoying this episode or something that Kate said really stuck out with you and you think someone in your circle needs to

01:02:27
Do me a favor, do us a favor, and share this episode with them. And hopefully, they can feel a little less alone. So thanks again, Kate. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode.