The Other Side of Yet: Surviving Unimaginable Loss | Michelle D. Hord

00:00
And I'm driving up in my car to what had been the first home I shared with my husband, where he carried me over the threshold, where we brought our baby girl home. And now there were police lights and ambulances and police tape. And my pastor was standing there, grabbed me out of the car and held me and just said, it's true.

00:26
I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is the LifeShift Podcast I wanted to introduce you to my guest this week, Michelle Hord. Michelle's story is one of unimaginable grief and loss. It's also one of resilience and hope. And on this episode, she shares her journey of overcoming a real giant tragedy and finding a new purpose in her life. Her life was turned upside down when her daughter was murdered by a family member. And she shares her heart wrenching moment.

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when she arrived at the scene and knew immediately that it was her kid. But instead of letting grief consume her, Michelle found the strength to keep going and to truly honor her daughter's memory. We talk about self-care and healing through therapy and other forms of self-care in this episode. Michelle also discusses the power of community and how the support of others really helped her through her darkest moments. But what struck me the most about Michelle's story is her resilience. Despite the tragedy that she faced,

01:21
she didn't want to let grief define her or her daughter's memory. So she found a new purpose in life and dedicated herself to helping others who face similar tragedies. So there is trigger warning in this episode. I want to make sure that you take care of yourself. If this topic is too much for you, please, you know, take care and maybe skip this episode. But I do think that Michelle's story is worth taking some time to listen to because it's a reminder that even in the darkest of times, there's always hope.

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Before I share this episode this week, I just want to thank all the Patreon members and those of you considering being a Patreon member. It is really helpful to support what I am trying to do here in ways of production and equipment and marketing and those kind of things. So if you have a couple dollars to spare each month and you want to contribute to the community,

02:15
and possibly win a t-shirt every time five more people join the Patreon, then you can go to patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast. For more information, there are a bunch of different tiers starting as low as three dollars a month. So thank you so much. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Michelle Hoard. I'm Maciel Houli and this is The Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:54
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Michelle Hoard. Hello, Michelle. Hi there. How are you? I'm good today. How about you? Not too bad. It's raining in Florida, which I'm super happy about because it's a bazillion degrees out lately and- I bet. I can't do it. I just want it to rain all the time now. Now does it turn into like a steam room sauna after the rain?

03:19
only if it rains for a short amount of time. So if it rains all day, we're okay. It's manageable, but yes, if it's like a hot day and it rains for like 10 minutes, it's worse. It's a great hair day. I guess, I just stay inside. It's an air conditioning thing. So I really appreciate you wanting to be a part of the LifeShift Podcast. We've been talking about this for a couple months now and we finally made it happen. And I think super excited is the wrong words to use, but I am super honored.

03:49
that you would want to be a part of this because your journey and the pivotal moment in your life is really, really tough and important to share and important to share your journey afterwards. We were talking before recording, you know, I started this show because I felt so alone when my mom died and I felt like the only kid that had a dead parent. I felt like I had to impress everyone.

04:17
around me and tell them I was okay when I was so broken. And so the Life Shift podcast exists so that whoever's listening, the one set of ears listening feel so alone in their circumstance. They hear a story like yours that has a resilience moment to it. They feel less alone. They feel like, oh, there might be some hope for me in my own circumstance. So super honored. Well, thank you so much. And the work that you're doing is so important.

04:47
so important to many ears, I'm sure. Thank you. I'm terrible at taking compliments. But you wrote a book in 2022. It's been out for a while now. And I told you before we started recording that I haven't read it yet. And that was on purpose, because I do want these conversations to unfold. I haven't watched any of the interviews that you've done on other shows. And I feel terrible saying that, because I feel like I'm breaking all the interview rules. But podcasts are a different space. I think it's- Absolutely. Growing up as a journalist.

05:17
Perhaps you broke the journalism rules, but this is a different space. And I love the idea of just having a conversation and it not feeling choreographed, but just seeing where it honestly goes. I think we're getting there in 2023 where people are having more open and honest conversations, but I'd like to think of it as someday I walk into a coffee shop and I overhear two people having just like a really deep human conversation and not just like.

05:43
Here are the accolades that I got, or I got this promotion at work, and look at me, I'm beautiful. All these things. I just want these real conversations. So that's kind of how I see this. So maybe you can kind of paint the picture of a little bit of who you are right now, and then what your life was like leading up to this moment that we're going to be talking about today. Absolutely. So I currently am a consultant. I work primarily with media companies because I've spent 30 years in the media industry.

06:12
Now, I will add, saying I started at age four. Yes, I was going to say. Yes, child prodigy. But have worked on shows like The Oprah Winfrey Show and Good Morning America, and worked primarily as a producer. I am married and literally just relocated to the DC area with my husband in the last week. I was joking with you that there's bankers boxes, hopefully somewhat hidden all around me.

06:42
always enjoyed professionally was storytelling and telling other people's stories, hearing other people's stories. And it really all started with my first job, which was at America's Most Wanted. We've heard of that. In Washington, D.C. Yes, perhaps once or twice. And, you know, in a lot of ways that show really was a trailblazer. And John Walsh, who hosted the show and started the show, was someone whose child had been kidnapped and murdered.

07:11
And so he came into the space with such advocacy. And so it was not just kind of the true crime space that we can get caught up in now that I've got to be honest, creeps me out a little bit when people just enjoy watching other people's misery. You know, how can we help? How can we make a difference? And so one of my first jobs out of school was handling missing children cases all over the country in the nineties where

07:39
scary enough, it seemed like there were a lot of them, you know, a kid on their newspaper route in the morning who gets kidnapped. And so those stranger abductions would happen. And within 24 hours, I was on a plane, going to be with a family, getting the news out to the FBI and working with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And what I always found fascinating, is the wrong word, but inspiring, was that

08:08
One, a community of strangers would come together. You know, that people will bond together in very difficult times. And that mom, dad, family, somehow we're surviving. Somehow we're talking to me, cracking a joke, making dinner, and just the power of what humans can withstand and endure. And I don't wanna say overcome because some things just live with you.

08:37
Some experiences just go with you. But it really, I think, in some ways informed the type of work I became gravitated to, which was, how do people survive things that if I'm watching at home or listening on a podcast, I say, oh my god, there's no way I ever could? And yet somehow, ordinary people have this extraordinary thing that comes out of them when it's necessary. I've had lots of conversations very similar to that,

09:07
someone comes to me, they've heard my story, which isn't just my mom dying, but, and they're like, I can't possibly imagine going through that. And then on their side, their story to me is like, I can't, how did you do that as a human? And so I don't know why we sometimes will compare our stories, but in the end, we are very resilient if we are willing to be.

09:34
I think there's some element of that which is really hard, really hard to be, to move forward, I think. But again, like you said, there's a lot of human aspects to it. You still have to breathe and eat and do things in a moment like that. But even America's Most Wanted, I think they helped a lot. They found a lot of people. Absolutely.

09:56
because we didn't have what social media? We didn't have the internet. No, and people were calling a 1-800 number. Right. You know, so it was a very, very different time. That's gotta feel good too though, right? Oh, absolutely. When you would hear captured, you know, and you know, one of the funny, fun facts about that show was a lot of times they watched the show in prison, prisoners watched it, and like we would literally get calls from inside prison of like.

10:22
Hi, there's this guy that says his name is Joe, but clearly his name isn't Joe because I just saw him on America's Most Wanted. So I mean, people really felt it was a way to connect before we had all of these for good or for bad, other social ways that we're able to connect with people. It was a way I think where people felt like they could connect and make a difference. That was before the Amber Alert system as well? It was, that's exactly right.

10:48
That case was one of the cases covered on America's Most Wanted, and yes, it was before that system. So we were on Fox, and we would do these missing child alerts with all of the Fox affiliates, hopefully within hours, because unfortunately in those cases, 24, 48 hours pass and there's not necessarily a lot of hope left. So yes, it was a very, very different time. The things I took away from it for sure still remain today.

11:16
is the stories of these real people. Because I think, too, now, like you pointed out, this true crime fascination, sometimes the story gets a little glamorized or the event gets more glamorized than the actual story of the humans behind it that had to face it. I thought about it in the, oh God, what was that story? The Love and Death, I think, is the latest one on HBO about Candy Montgomery. And you...

11:44
what you read in the papers, the deeper articles that not a lot of people read are the families of the woman or her former friend that was the victim and how that brings things back up. Sure. They didn't overcome anything. I'm sure it still lives with them, but now they're reminded of it in a way that other people are glamorizing it. So there is a challenge in that as well. Yeah, for sure, for sure. That's amazing work, but I can see how you would gravitate to the more.

12:12
positive elements, maybe? Yes. Yes, for sure. Absolutely. Where did you go from there and what did you do with that? You moved into all those other spaces in producing and journalism? Yeah. So I continued to produce, like I said, at the Oprah Winfrey Show at CBS News. I was really interested in news and landed at Good Morning America, working with Robin Roberts and Diane Sawyer.

12:40
And Robin Roberts is one of those rare people who is exactly who you see on television. And it's just this ray of sunshine and wants to bring hope and healing wherever she goes. And one of the first big stories I remember covering with her was Hurricane Katrina, which really impacted her hometown and her home state of Mississippi. So, yes, those stories where you can find hope, where you find light in the dark.

13:10
I guess, are the stories that I've always been really attracted to and find inspirational more than anything. Did you find it challenging behind the scenes? I feel like maybe media was a little bit different when you were doing that, but I feel like a lot of media kind of goes towards the bad news or kind of focus on that part. Did you find that difficult to kind of push through and be like, no, but here's the good part of it?

13:39
Well, I was, you know, I've been blessed that I was able to be intentional. And there were some places, frankly, I just would not work, you know, that were more money that I just would not work. So I was never interested in sensationalizing. You know, I was never interested in just getting the exclusive booking to get someone on TV who frankly probably shouldn't be on national TV at that moment. So it was, you know, the more layered stories.

14:09
I walked into this space with the early experience of America's Most Wanted. You know, you walked in as an advocate, as a social worker, even though I was none of those things at 22 years old, because I was representing this show and representing John Walsh, there was just an empathy and respect for the people you were working with, that you looked at them as survivors and not victims and not marks, quite frankly.

14:36
So I certainly in the stories I covered, even when I was on a school shooting or something like that, there are certain types of stories that I looked to tell. And those were the ones about fighting through for the hope. I guess it brings us closer to the moment in your life where you be, I don't wanna say it like this. I mean, I guess you became the story that you would.

15:06
that you would go talk to people on? Can you share a little bit about that? Yes. So the name of my book is The Other Side of Yet. And the title in part is because I spent so much of my career on the other side of police tape, on the other side of these stories. And then suddenly at 47, I was the mother showing up at a crime scene. I was the one on the other side of police tape. So just in terms of

15:35
background and context. I got married in my late 30s to someone I'd known since my early 20s. We were blessed to have this beautiful little girl when I was 39 years old after being told that I probably would not be able to conceive. Her name was Gabrielle. She was this amazing, healthy, energetic, kind, wonderful, funny little girl.

15:59
And at some point when she was about five or six years old, I realized that my marriage through all the hard work and counseling was just not materializing in the way that I had hoped it. And as a mom of a girl, I wanted to show her what I thought love should look like, what I thought, how I thought a wife should be treated, how I thought a mom should be treated. And unfortunately, my marriage was not one that was going to allow me to do that. So.

16:24
You know, there was a lot of back and forth through the divorce proceedings. I moved out at one point because I just didn't want Gabrielle exposed to friction, so she would go back and forth between my place and dad's place. And on June 5, 2017, I received a phone call from my then husband saying, OK, I'll sign the papers. And I rushed to, like, meet him in a notary because it had been such a horrific, divisive.

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several months before he changed his mind. I remember signing all of these papers in front of this complete stranger, and it literally feels like you're signing the life you know away. Us talking as we parted ways that evening, and me giving him a hug, and him saying, I'm sorry for everything that's happened over these last several months. I was just awash with relief because I was like, thank God, the person who I've known.

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who I've known since I was in my 20s is still in there. And I said, listen, our marriage may not have worked out, but all that matters. We were friends first, we still love each other, and most importantly, we love this little girl. And so the most important thing is co-parenting this little girl. And that was an evening where Gabrielle was spending the night with her dad. I went back to my rental home, got up the next day, went to work with the intentions of...

17:46
sitting down with my husband after work and talking to Gabrielle about logistically next steps. She knew we were going to get a divorce, but you know what the plans were. And at about 3 p.m., I received the phone call and it was from our caregiver. And it was clear to me by just this shrill scream, which was unlike anything I'd ever heard, that she had walked into a crime scene. And I wasn't

18:16
in the moment sure exactly what was happening. You know, to my knowledge, Gabrielle would be at school, getting ready to come home. My first thought was, oh my God, her dad's killed himself. You know, how am I going to deal with this? How am I going to help her deal with this? And then this just, I can only describe it as like an ice pick going through the top of your head down where I realized maybe it was something else. And...

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I called a dear friend who always was at drop off and said, hey, did you see Gabrielle this morning? And she said, no. And then I knew Gabrielle had not gone to school. And then I realized that something else perhaps was happening. And you can only imagine like the longest drive home ever, right? As family and friends are starting to gather who arrived before me.

19:09
my mother-in-law who I was very close to, who I called immediately to go and get to the scene. And I'm driving up in my car to what had been the first home I shared with my husband, where he carried me over the threshold, where we brought our baby girl home. And now there were police lights and ambulances and police tape. And my pastor was standing there, grabbed me.

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out of the car and held me and just said, it's true. And my daughter was gone. My husband had taken our child's life and was still alive and was in police custody.

19:55
I'm not sure how to respond to that. I'm so sorry for your loss. I feel that still. I mean, this was a few years ago. I mean, it's a big thing, but you can feel that you were in that moment telling that particular story. And I can't help but think of the experiences that you had before in your workspace and then pulling up knowing full well.

20:24
what's happening around you, but also probably feeling like, this can't, did you have a sense of feeling that this just like wasn't real? Like you were in like some other kind of space? Did you have any of that feeling? I went into survival mode. I think because of the experiences I had, I remember a coworker was driving me home.

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and was trying to reassure me, you know, maybe she's just hurt, maybe she can't call you. And I knew, I just knew. I knew as a mother, I knew as someone who had covered these stories, who walked into situations and heard there are no words, this doesn't happen here, that somehow that was my story now. And

21:16
You know, we all have things that we consider our darkest nightmares, our worst nightmares. When I was growing up, I was losing my mom. I lost my mom suddenly when I was 24. She was 50. So I was an adult, but certainly a young adult. And she died of a cerebral aneurysm. And it was, you know, unexpected. And so the second worst nightmare was losing a child. But it would have never even been in my nightmare to imagine this.

21:46
with someone, you know, it's interesting. I think those of us that have experienced trauma try to make it palatable sometimes for other people, make them comfortable. And I'm sure you can relate to this in your own way. You know, when we were talking earlier, not that you make excuses, but you know, you need people to feel like you are okay, even if you're not. You need to explain.

22:16
whatever is explicable. And so I find, you know, this this reflex of saying, you know, it wasn't an abusive household. There was no violence in the household. Because it is, it is something that will go without explanation for the rest of my life. And I think that was one of the first truisms that I had to accept on this walk was there are things

22:46
that are just without explanation, even as someone of faith who grew up in the Baptist Church, who has a strong faith. What my faith hasn't ever promised me was that everything was going to make sense to me. People say a lot of things in the name of God, a lot of things frankly that I think they shouldn't say without authority. I believe in my heart of hearts that just like there's good in the universe, there's evil in the universe.

23:16
whatever this evil was that did this, that took over literally my husband that I knew, was something that was supposed to take me out too. And so I very quickly, through gut-wrenching pain and trauma and everything that comes with a crime investigation, by the way, in the middle of a divorce that wound up taking two years after he was incarcerated,

23:46
My sole focus was that I was going to survive this because I wasn't supposed to. And it was a bit of an F-U, F-U universe. I'm supposed to be here for a reason. This is not supposed to be survivable. This was, this little girl was my biggest dream and the light of my life. And it does her a disservice if I don't survive to tell her story. That's...

24:15
And that's huge. I think it's, I'm sure there were moments in which you did not feel that way. I'm sure there are little blips in time in which you were just, how do I move forward? You know, I want to go back to what you said about kind of like you felt the need to make explanations or not excuses. And if this question is too far, please tell me. But was there a part of you that that absorbed some kind of like,

24:45
what could I have done moment because I think I would when my mom died, I was eight and I blamed myself that I didn't stop her from going on this trip as a 32 year old woman that can clearly make her own decisions. But I remember having a temper tantrum like before she went and she's like, it's fine. It's fine. And then it wasn't. And then so I absorbed that as an eight year old, I can imagine as a grown person with

25:11
with your own thoughts. Did you have any of those moments in which... Sure. I mean, listen, as a parent, as a mother, you know, wondering what I missed, wondering what I didn't see, I'm incredibly grateful that I was able to very quickly start to work with a trauma therapist who I still work with this to this day. And one of the first things she said to me, and she'd grown up in the Manhattan DA's office is, you didn't miss anything because there was nothing to see. Right. Well, that's helpful. You know, that is...

25:40
truly a sociopath. And certainly everyone in my life, from my father to dear friends, you know, it's as if we all felt like I was this very safe driver that got mowed down by a Mack truck. And so, so much of life in those early days and months and weeks, and even years after were what's coming. You know, can I see what's coming? Can she see what's coming?

26:09
one of the lessons had to be, you know, one, really letting go of ever understanding, and then two,

26:22
realizing that there just are some things outside of our control. And I think for me, and it's interesting because as I started to write this book, COVID happened. And I found, strangely enough, or perhaps not strangely enough, that my ability to articulate my story became much, much easier when COVID happened, because all of the sudden there was this universal thing that was not possible.

26:51
It was not possible. It was out of a horror movie until it was, right? And once it was possible, what else is possible, right? When something sudden, horrific, traumatic happens, it sort of opens up this door of like, oh my gosh, if this could happen, what else could happen? I'm sure you experienced that as a young man of like, you know, don't tell me what is or isn't possible because I've already seen what's possible, right? And so at different levels,

27:19
which is why I think these conversations are so important right now and that people are willing to testify and be vulnerable. We all have experienced incredible trauma and loss of life as we've known it in the past few years, even if you didn't lose someone personally. And so it's, you know, acknowledging that and understanding it will never make sense. You know, we'll never be able to understand.

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you know, why there were families that were completely wiped out by COVID and others that weren't, right? Or why it spread or why, you know, even science can't emotionally help us, right? Connect to what happened and promise us that we're safe today. And, you know, the dirty little secret is we were never assured that everything was going to go smoothly, right? Like, we've never been assured that.

28:17
something like this couldn't happen.

28:22
And so when it does, it gives you this realization that I've only have this moment, I only have right now, I have this false sense that I'm somehow controlling what's happening around me. And in reality, I'm just on this walk, whether that's a walk of faith or a walk with the universe or walk with loved ones, I'm just on this walk and all I can do is just put one foot in front of the other. You're right, you hit on the power of...

28:51
storytelling and collective experiences, right? And I think they kind of go along with your mention of the pandemic. There's something that we never imagined and it was a collective thing. Like everyone around the globe pretty much was experiencing something very similar, whether people wanted to believe it was happening or not, it was happening around them. And that aligns with the power of storytelling to me is because now someone can understand.

29:20
You know, someone sharing this experience, you're sharing your story. The people that you worked with at America's Most Wanted, the people you were telling stories of on Good Morning America and working with Oprah and all these other things, that was helping other people understand that their circumstance is survivable. It is, you can move through it. You can move with it. I don't think you're gonna move past it. I think that's really difficult. People yell at me when I tell them. I don't know if they yell.

29:48
They say things to me when I tell them that I closed the door on grief on my mom. And it's interesting to me, I do think I did. But that's a different circumstance. You were a fully formed adult. You were a fully formed person moving through the world. I was eight years old. There aren't many memories that you keep with you from that moment in time. So my mother at this point in my life is a figment, like is an idea, is a construct of a mother figure, which sounds terrible to say.

30:18
That sounds real. It's and that's why I do the show. I think it's. I was conditioned growing up, and I think maybe you were as well, and a lot of people were conditioned to say the things that make people comfortable. Absolutely. You know, don't tell them like, how are you today? You know, you usually say good, you know, like we're good. But if I was to tell you, well, actually, it's really terrible. We're not we're not ready. Like the person hearing that is like, oh, so I think it's interesting to think about.

30:47
the power of storytelling, and now what you're doing with your book, going on podcasts and TV shows and whatnot, sharing this story, there's someone sitting there that's like, oh, I can stand up today. I can take that next step. I think it's so powerful in what you do. How did the book help your healing? Did you find that it was cathartic in a way? I've always written.

31:16
and my biggest life dream was to write a book. This was a book you can imagine no one would ever want to write, right? But I did start journaling immediately after this happened, really to work it out in my brain. I would talk to myself, I would talk to God, I would write letters to my daughter, and my therapist smartly encouraged me to share some of them, not just with her but with some of the people I was close to.

31:42
And what I started to hear over time, and I think this is the power of telling one story, was friends who said things like, somehow you gave me hope today, you know, with everything you're going through, or I hadn't prayed in years until you talked about how powerful prayer has been for you. And I realized that the holes in my body were allowing light to come through for people. And that in some ways this wasn't about me.

32:12
this was about how perhaps I could be used. And I say that with no delusions of grandeur, right? But like, how can I be a vehicle or a vessel to share what's possible even when the impossible happens? And that started to feel like my life's work. And so writing the book in some ways brought a lot of it back, because it's so vivid.

32:42
Yeah, but what has happened is I get DMs every day, I get emails, I get stopped where people say, not only did I read your book, but then I bought four copies because we lost my dad and I wanted all of my siblings to have it. That it really feels like it is a tool for a lot of people that are coping.

33:06
And listen, the reality is we are all coping with some type of loss, right? Either you're coming out of it, you're in the middle of it, or you're going into it. And that's infertility, that's divorce, that's heartbreak, right? I think one of the hard things that I'm sure you can relate to this as well is when you've had a loss that most people can't really comprehend or doesn't feel relatable. We do this, what I call grief index, right? Of like,

33:34
my grief is worse than yours or his grief is worse than mine. And I don't buy into that. I think we all have our journeys. I think certainly it's hard to argue that it isn't devastating for an eight-year-old little boy to lose his mom or that it's not devastating to have a child taken away from you violently. And for others who are walking other lives, it's devastating to not be able to conceive at all. It's devastating.

34:02
to be divorced and have your husband walk away with everything and be left penniless. There are so many moments in our lives where all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, this isn't what I thought my life would look like. The book and the work I'm trying to do is about how do we pivot to something else when what we thought we were building disintegrates. Which you just defined the LifeShift podcast as well. It's like there's a...

34:31
We're all going to have it. We're all going to have these pivotal moments. I like this grief index idea. And as you were saying, it brought me back to that conversation that I had about kind of comparing. And he said, my worst day is equal to your worst day because it was our worst day. I love that. There's no leveling. It was our worst, right? And so that's the top. That's how it can be, and that's how we can look at that. And you're right. I mean, people are.

35:00
people are facing things and what might seem insurmountable can be and what you're doing for people, like these people stop you in the street and tell you how valuable your story is. I'm sure that is helping fill maybe some of those holes or some of those missing pieces and understanding that like I'm putting out some kind of good in the world despite such tragedy, such hardship, such challenge, right?

35:30
I bet that's even more valuable than selling another copy of your book, just understanding. Absolutely. I, and my publisher wouldn't want to hear this, but I'm much less concerned about selling copies of my book as getting the message out. And so I've started working as a coach. I am going out and speaking. And it's really because so many people are living.

36:00
with extraordinary circumstances that they don't quite know how to manage. And there really are some practical tools that I started to see in my early days as a producer that I lived out that I do think help people. And they can help people professionally, they can help people personally, but there are, you know, there's not a formula, you know, A, B, C, D, but there are some consistent things that researchers would say and people who've experienced.

36:29
you know, trauma and loss would say, help you cope. And you just mentioned one of them, you know, how can I make an impact on others? That can be starting a foundation for some people. I started a foundation in my daughter's memory called Gabrielle's Wings that works to help children around the globe. That could be something like making dinner for my neighbor and knocking on the door. You know, sometimes we don't know how to help in these situations.

36:59
But just trying to get outside of yourself and trying to make an impact, I think, is one of the key pieces on the path to healing. It only took me 25 years to come to this podcast. Oh, actually, 35 years. Oh, a long time. What has been the most impactful thing, like thing that you did in your journey that helped you kind of get to that next level of...

37:26
you know, not just surviving, but finding a way to live. I think deciding, I made a decision really early on, again, as a journalist that watched these stories, that Gabrielle's story was going to be of who she was in the world and that would happen to her. And that was the root of the foundation. And so for me, what has given me oxygen is seeing beautiful little kids that look like my daughter.

37:55
who are getting swim lessons or going to camp or given the social emotional learning tools that they now need in this crazy post COVID world that they're living in, getting a hug from one of those kids, hearing a great story about one of these children who perhaps would not have had access to things except for the work that the foundation is doing. That's my daughter's legacy. And I've had people say,

38:24
You know, she only lived seven years, but wow, think about what those seven years are doing all over the globe and the children that she's touching. And so that for me, on my worst day, is to remember there's a way that I can impact other children that honors who she was and honors my love for her as a mother. I mean, the way you described her early on, it sounds like she would love doing this as well and that she would love. Absolutely.

38:53
being with those other little kids that needed something in their life and someone stepped in. And so I can imagine there's a component of just like living or like her living through you in this way of serving these little, you work with younger kids, right? Yes, elementary age kids in underserved communities. And you know, for gavreels. That's a lifelong impact. That's for those kids. That's exactly right.

39:18
Well, and that's why we chose that age group. You know, Gabrielle was seven, she was in the second grade, but we also know statistically the game changing years are those elementary age years, right? I know. And so, yes, of course you do. Yeah. Of course you do. And so getting to children during those years makes a huge impact. And for Gabrielle's last two birthday parties, she did backpack drives because her birthday was in August. And, you know, we would go to the local

39:47
nonprofit that helped kids who didn't have school supplies and, you know, take the backpacks afterwards. So even as a small child, it's who she was becoming. It was what her spirit was. And so I feel like I'm honoring, you know, her spirit and honoring her in so many ways by this work. Yeah, I love it. I mean, I picture her and that, you know, when you see those other kids and just how that can just be a part of...

40:16
their journey and like you said, that impactful age. I imagine as an eight year old, if things were afforded to me in a different way, it was the 80s. So there wasn't a lot of talk and help and those kinds of things. And so, you know, that was my journey, but the things that you can be doing, just even a small thing, you know, you give them something that they just didn't have before that they didn't know they needed, can spark something. I was talking to someone the other day in which they created a,

40:45
like a solar light system and they go to war-torn countries or places like in Haiti after the earthquake and they bring these little kids this magic, right? This solar-powered light. And we talked about how, you know, that's great utility. But imagine as that kid seeing that there's hope in some kind of magic that the creator of this came and gave it. You invented this? That's possible?

41:15
So I picture that in these kids that you're helping through this foundation, which is huge and impactful and will continue on through their lives. And I'm sure by having that, what does that trickle effect look like, right? I mean, they were afforded something as a child. Imagine how many people they might help because of what you did for them. Absolutely. Yeah, it's the butterfly effect, which is one of the things behind the name, Gabrielle's wings.

41:44
She loved butterflies. I think of her as a little angel. But the idea that a small impact can have such a huge impact, right? That doing a small thing. And so to your point, you know, a small kindness that, you know, we can all probably remember as children, someone, an adult saying or doing something that we remember to this day. They may not even remember who we are, right? Like we may not have been in touch with them in 20 or 30 years, but it's amazing how those moments can go on to shape children.

42:14
And so we try to be really intentional in our work about creating those opportunities for safety, for affirmation, and that are empowering. Yeah, and inspiring. Yes. Right? Because other people are going to see it, or they're going to feel it, and they're going to remember that moment. I go back to another person I spoke with. They were 15, maybe 16, ready to drop out of high school. One of their teachers pulled them aside the day before they were going to just like,

42:44
I'm dropping out and was like, one more day, I want you to write me three poems. We're gonna submit this for a scholarship. She ended up winning a scholarship, ended up going to the college of her dreams, ended up getting the job of her dreams. And it was all because this guy saw her in her worst day, pulled her aside and just was like, write three poems. It's not like this big thing, right? That's so powerful. You know, and so.

43:10
Now she looks back on that moment. The teacher was like, I don't remember that moment. Right, right. But that changed her life. That was a moment in time. And so I just keep thinking about these little kids that you're just, even the smallest of, or something that we might seem might be small, like, oh, that wasn't too much for me to do, could have changed their lives. And so what an impact. Absolutely. I want to talk about you. I want to, I wonder, or do you ever wonder?

43:40
if the universe put you in that America's most wanted space and working with families and kind of navigating that space, do you think there was some kind of universal play in here to kind of prepare you in a way to actively move forward? It's one to grapple with, right? I lost my best friend when I was six in the 70s where we didn't talk about things.

44:09
you know, lost my mom and her mother three months apart in my early 20s when a lot of my friends were not experiencing those losses, worked on this television show, and then this happened. So what I know for sure, and I'm sure you can relate to this is you understand how people grieve and grieve differently. So I don't know if you have siblings, but if you do,

44:37
they would have lost something different than you lost, right? My brother and I lost someone different. We had the same mom. Parents react differently to loss. There are people that want to talk about the person all the time. There are others that literally will put every picture, every memento, everything away, right? You're describing my family. Yeah, but I think what's so powerful, and that breaks my heart, but what's so powerful about it is

45:04
To answer your question, I don't know if the universe, if those things were preparing me for this, but I know in some ways they have, that I walked into this circumstance understanding grief, understanding sudden loss, having watched other people deal with loss through violence. Addiction. And grappling with the criminal justice system. Yeah.

45:34
you know, the importance of gratitude, of like little moments of gratitude. And that could be the sun is shining today. My friend brought my favorite cheeseburger over, like, like early on, like the little just just having the courage to be grateful for those little things. So I do think there are lessons that our life gives us that if we're

46:03
open to receive them and call upon them can help us on our journey as we continue. The openness is important. I can relate to a lot of that, right? You know, I mentioned my mom dying when I was eight. My dad's mom kind of took over the role of mother and we became pretty much best friends, like inappropriately best friends at times, as my dad would say. And I feel she didn't

46:33
feel like I failed grieving for so long, for decades, for like 20 years or so until I was ready, I guess. But what that did serve me is that when my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer, I knew for me what I needed to do to make sure that the process leading up to and after was going to be the best for her, but also the best for me. And so that, in that sense of maybe the universe didn't.

47:01
take my mom out in that way so that this could happen. But yes, to your point, being able to understand that there are things of that experience that could serve me later on. Like, I had the conversation with my grandmother before she died and said everything that ever needed to be said. Like, I don't think I could have done that without not being able to do that with my mom, right? I sat with my grandmother the last 96 hours of her life in the hospice house.

47:31
watched her take her last breath, I don't think I would have been able to do that. And so I knew that when she took that last breath, I was gonna be okay. I knew what I could do. I knew that I did everything that I needed to do. I said everything that I needed to say. And here we are moving through our life, if we're aware enough to see that these experiences can fulfill us. And so I didn't mean to throw out there that the universe was like throwing things at you early on to kind of prepare you here, but it's always interesting.

48:02
how people like you that have the ability to reflect on those moments and what you can do with it, is fascinating to watch. No, I didn't take it in a negative way at all. And it's certainly something I've thought about quite a bit. And I think you're absolutely right. The gift, if that's the right word, of life experiences is...

48:28
is our ability to use them to help us navigate whatever is next. Because what we know for sure is as long as we're living, there will be more change. There will be other pivots. There will be times, you know, today will become a before to another pivot in life that will look different, you know, for whatever reason, three, four, five, ten years from now. And I do think there's something, you know, resilience isn't about being a superhero, right? Resilience...

48:58
is about the collection of tools that you can assemble. It's like being a mountain climber and knowing if I have certain tools, if I use certain tools, if I prepare a certain way, I have the tools I need to scale this mountain. It's still a big effing mountain, right? You can still fall, you can still get hurt. It's still, it is still as traumatic and scary as it would be for anyone else, but you have the toolkit.

49:28
And I do think there is a confidence that you can develop around resilience that doesn't take the pain or sting or shock or any of those things away when things happen. But in the way it allowed you to be really thoughtful, when you lose someone suddenly, the ability to lose someone over time is almost a gift. And I know you know what I mean and won't take that in a negative way, but to have the luxury of

49:58
being there and getting to say everything. And I'm sure that that in some ways was gratifying because you didn't get the chance to do that with your mom, right? You didn't have that opportunity. So, you know, I think when we talk about resilience, when we talk about hope, so much of it is the toolkit that you can assemble from your life experience, from shared experiences, from hearing other people's stories that'll give you what you need when you need it.

50:28
Yeah, and I would add to that, to build the trust in yourself that you can do that, right? There's the confidence, but also that mountain is huge. Can I do it again? Yeah, I think I can. And I think that might be the hardest part for a lot of people that haven't experienced something super dramatic in their life or something super tragic. That first one, that first mountain, can be really hard. But again,

50:57
people like you telling your story of what you did and what you're done and what you continue to do might give them that trust in themselves to take step one. Because step two is easier once you do step one. And to go back to our climbing analogy and Lord knows I'm not a mountain climber. So anyone that's listening, feel free to correct me if this isn't correct. But my understanding is you take it a piece at a time. This is the next big.

51:27
part of this scale that we have to focus on. And so the idea of overcoming or healing or surviving my daughter's murder has never been the goal. The goal has been to choose to live today and survive today. And that's a choice you make every day.

51:56
to the extent it's within your power, right? And sometimes that's Ben and Jerry's in the nightgown. Like, it's not a podcast. It's not, you know, trying to do a little something to your hair. It's like, no moss can't do this today. Yeah, and that's okay. That's exactly right. That's always, you know, people are, people going through something new in their experience, they losing someone. I think a lot of people wanna just like, try to solve it for them or help them. And my advice at this point in my journey is always,

52:26
feel however you are feeling and be OK with that. Acknowledge it. I think early on, I would laugh. And then I would feel like, oh, no, should I have laughed? And I'm like, I'm a human. We're going to have these moments. And it's OK to be at any point in your, you could be so mad. It's OK. Honor it. Move through it. Move with it, however you need to be. And that's the only advice I can give to people. Because like you pointed out earlier, a grief journey is different for every single person.

52:55
and it's your own. Absolutely. And I'm sure you get questioned as well of what people should do when someone they care about is faced with loss. And you know, what I always say is, you know, that person is ripped open with vulnerability, right? Like they don't get a choice. You know their stuff. You know, you may be going through whatever you're going through, but their story, when you have this type of loss.

53:23
forces them to be vulnerable. And so instead of trying to solve it, instead of trying to say the right thing, because you're not going to be able to, that need to fix it is somewhat ego. And instead, take the posture of, I'm here right now in this moment. I'm not going to pretend to know what to say. I'm not going to pretend to know what to do. Is there something I can do right now? If that's just sitting here, that's fine. I'm not going to pretend to have the words.

53:53
That ability to open up and be vulnerable and sit with their uncomfortableness, probably not a word, but that to me is so much more powerful than someone walking in with whatever trope they read online about everything happens for a reason or- Don't ever tell someone that. Yeah. One of my favorite moments.

54:18
I have a brother that's three years younger than me. After we lost our mom, I remember at the wake at one point, we didn't have a formal wake, but at the memorial at one point, him whispering to me, if one more person tells me she's in a better place, I'm going to offer to send them there. So people in their human frailty say all sorts of stupid things, meaning well, and so my advice to people is,

54:47
be vulnerable, have the ability to sit in the vulnerability that your friend is in and in that uncomfortable space. Is that what you would say to someone like yourself pulling up on at your house that day? What would you say to that version of Michelle, if you could, knowing what you know now?

55:13
that it will be a minute-by-minute, breath-by-breath journey, and to give yourself the grace to be exactly where you are right now, knowing that it won't always be what it is right now. And that doesn't mean healing or a grief journey is linear. You know, there are days that feel like day one still. They don't last as long.

55:40
They aren't as triggering, they aren't necessarily as debilitating. But I think truly learning how to be in your body and honor wherever you are emotionally in that moment is what I would try to whisper into her ear. I think she would listen. I just, you know, in the little bit I know about you, I feel like I know a lot about you now, but in this short amount of time, I feel like that version of you would listen and understand that...

56:09
This one moment is what matters right now, and the next moment will be the one that matters next. And I think that's an important thing to say. You know, to kind of wrap up the conversation, I wonder if you could share the best way to either connect with you, find your book, whatever. The best thing, if people are inspired by your story or just want to know more, where can they go and what can they do? Absolutely. So.

56:32
On Instagram, I'm MDHord, M-D-H-O-R-D, like Dr. Hord, although I'm not a doctor. And I have a newsletter that they can sign up with there. We talk a lot about hope and about life changes and new chapters. And I have a website, which is just my name spelled out, micheldhord.com. And you can also find information about Gabrielle's wings there as well. And your book. Your book is called The Other Side of Yet.

57:01
the other side of yet. And congratulations on the paperback, the hardback, the Kindle. Thank you. Do you have an audio book of that? I do. I recorded the audio book, which was a whole other emotional journey you can imagine. I bet. Hearing those words out loud. So yeah, it is available wherever books are sold. And I'd be honored if some of your listeners picked it up and hopefully it can be helpful. I will certainly link to all of those things in the show notes. So if you're listening and you want to connect and you want to.

57:30
check out the book or what Michelle's doing, please reach out to her and find those links there. And thank you, Michelle. Thank you for just being a part of this most fulfilling journey that I've ever been on and having the time to have a real honest human conversation. It's been quite a joy in a way that maybe joy is not the right word, but I think you understand. I absolutely do. And I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much. And if you're listening.

57:59
and you're enjoying the show, five stars, rating, those kind of things are lovely. I don't really know what they do. Sometimes they just make me feel really good on a Tuesday. So thank you for listening and we will be back next week with a brand new episode.

58:23
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com