Overcoming Shame, Toxic Masculinity, And Finding Purpose | John D’Agostini

00:00
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with John. Hey, John. How you doing? So good. Thank you for being willing to be a part of the Life Shift Podcast. You have a story that you've put out in a book now that's a published book. It's called Aimless. Aimless, A Journey to Constructive Masculinity, yep. You know, my goal with this show is to have each episode find the ears that needed to hear it most and people that feel.

00:26
I guess alone in their circumstance, maybe logically they understand that they're not the only ones going through something like that. But when you're in that moment, I know personally from my own experience, I felt like I was the only person, the only kid that had ever lost a parent. And I knew I wasn't, but I definitely felt that way. And I think that what you're going to share today, there are going to be people that maybe weren't in the exact same circumstance, but can really relate to.

00:54
what you've done with it and what you did in the moment when you needed to, to kind of save yourself, if you will. So thank you for just being willing to share this publicly here on the podcast. Of course, thank you for having me. So what I like to start with is just typically have the guest kind of paint the picture of who you were so that we can understand how that shift affected your life. So maybe paint the picture leading up to that moment of kind of who John was beforehand.

01:20
Sure, I was in my mid to late 20s. I was 27 if I remember correctly. I had just been medically discharged out of the army and I returned back to the broken home that I joined the army to escape from. And it wasn't always that way. I was very fortunate and blessed to have a wonderful childhood. I mean, it literally resembled a Norman Rockwell painting. I mean, it was just so iconic, constantly outside, playing ball with friends, barbecues.

01:47
I went to a local public school, which I was very lucky enough to have most of my friends within the same class as me. So it was a great upbringing. And I went to, after I graduated public school, I went to a place called Choate Rosemary Hall in Wallingford, Connecticut for a postgraduate year, essentially a 13th grade of just super intense academia to help me get into the next tier of colleges that I wanted to go to.

02:17
And as I was going back and forth, I noticed that the rift in our family, which all families have their wrinkles, our wrinkles became a rift. It became quite a severe gap, which was becoming more and more difficult to manage. And my mother, who was my hero in every way, uh, started to drink on the sneak, drink alcohol. And from, I was 19 at the time from 19 to 27, what started out as maybe not so healthy, a habit became abuse. And then.

02:46
She was walking around the block and these people were visiting some of our neighbors down the street and they brought two huge boxer dogs with them and my mom was walking our dog and the dogs attacked our dog, knocked my mom to the ground. She broke her spine and was prescribed painkillers, opioids and I remember clear as day, less than a week later, I saw my mom.

03:16
take a pill, which at the time was, I'm sure it was Vicodin. And I remember saying, you know, mom, you really shouldn't have a glass of wine with that. You were the one who always told me not to mess around with that stuff. And she said, I'll be fine. And that kicked off a very steep decline. I mean, she fell off a cliff and I watched her for the next four or five years, slowly kill herself every day, combining prescription medication with alcohol. And she, uh, unfortunately lost herself to it. And.

03:45
By the time I was 27, having left for the army, there was really no speaking terms between my sister and I and my mom and my dad had separated and things were just totally out of hand. So when I came back and I was not in a good place, she became exceedingly abusive to the point where most nights if she was home, I wasn't safe. So I had to.

04:13
lock my door and keep weapons in my room and make sure she wouldn't continue to do the things that she had done. And in my mind, it was always, you know, she has a problem. Right. It's not her. And so it didn't make her behavior. Okay. It just, it, you know, I was able to rationalize it to a point where I could tolerate it on a daily basis because we used to have mornings together. And so our mornings, we were still cordial and kind.

04:43
And then they left and one day she just came after me in the morning and I looked at her in the eye and I knew she was sober, but I also knew that she wasn't there. And I had to make a decision right then and there. Do I continue along with this and, and allow her, her issues to become my own or do I leave? And at the time, uh, although I was in, in crisis and it's impossible.

05:12
nearly impossible to make one good decision when you're in crisis, let alone a string of good decisions over an extended duration of time. I chose to leave and I laid out my terms very clearly with you sober up. We'll have a chat, but until you sober up, I can't do this anymore. Uh, and she responded very poorly. As you can imagine, she was my mother and parents have a way of having the goods on their kids. You know, they know what to say if they need to hurt them, if they're, if they're backed against a corner. And so.

05:42
I packed up everything I had into two bags with my car and I left. I just took off. Shortly thereafter, I realized I didn't have any money. She had been taking the money I had been giving her for rent to feed her addiction as well as my sister's addiction. And the money that I had just in my wallet or laid around in my drawers or whatever just for me magically disappeared. So I never confirmed that she stole it, but I also knew that I didn't spend it. So

06:10
I left dead broke with no jobs and also no support system because nobody knew what was going on over the course of the last eight years. We were a very private family with it. And also, at the time, which is something I articulate and kind of expand upon and aimless, but at the time I believed in never asking for help because that's what men do. So that was a catastrophic day for me. And it marked.

06:40
a life shift as the show would say. It's clearly a demarcation line. Even in the short bit that I read from your book and full disclosure to everyone, including you, I try not to learn too much about my guests ahead of time because I do want to have what I feel is a genuine conversation with questions that I think that any human should have, which goes along with where you've transferred your energy and your thoughts.

07:08
past this moment of like, we're full-formed humans as men, and we can have all the pieces that come along with being a human. And it's interesting to me how your life seemingly started as that like picture book kind of feeling, right? That I personally can't relate to. My life has always been kind of fractured in, you know, divorced family and those kinds of things. So it was never, that was normal for me, but...

07:38
the fact that your life started in this kind of picture book way and came to this point so far down the line. I mean, did you see that endpoint at any point in time earlier on in your journey in this picture book feeling, but you kind of like, you were the man, you couldn't admit to that and feel that? Well, I think that's a good question. And I'm sure like you have now, you know, you look back and you reflect and you contemplate and I'm sure you've had moments where

08:08
You've made a bad decision in your past and you look back on it now and you said, I should have known, you know, it's always should have, would have, could have. Uh, but I've, I've learned to extend myself the grace and space and, and just forgive myself for the poor decisions I made, but looking back objectively, I would say I, I'm most likely stayed five to six years too long in the house because there were behaviors present on a daily basis back then that

08:37
any therapist or social worker or anybody who knows this world would say, you got to get out. You got to get out. This is, this is not a good environment. It's not your responsibility. You're not supposed to parent your parents and or parent your sister. And I was the last one my dad left, my sister left, my dad left. It was just me and my mom. And I felt a very strong sense of responsibility to try and help her out. In no way did I think it was going to end. And to your point, I did have 20 wonderful years.

09:07
with my mother and my sister and I we had typical sibling stuff, but she was you know, a good person, you know before she started using her things and making using drugs and making negative decisions and choices. But looking back, I stayed probably five to six years past when it was done when it was not a good idea. And each day past that was just this horrible secretive thing of just a

09:35
pressure cooker between my mother and I. To your point of the giving yourself grace, I feel like we typically do the best we know how to do at the time, you know, and with the tools that we have and with the understanding that we have. And growing up, it sounds like you had either society taught you this or your family or the people you were around, there were expectations of you as a

10:04
as a male figure in someone's life. There were certain things you were supposed to do, quote unquote, supposed to do, certain things you were supposed to feel and maybe not feel. So do you feel that now looking back on that, do you think a lot of that society pressure of being a quote unquote man made you stay that extra five years? Do you think that there was a lot of that that pulled into that? Oh, absolutely. I think there are so many cross-sections that played on

10:34
my entire identity, my entire belief system that, and I'm certainly not painting myself a hero. In those five, six years, I did not treat her particularly well because I was often defending myself without physically defending myself, which is also another masculine thing. You never hit a woman and you certainly never hit your mother. Well, when you're being abused on a daily basis and they know that you're not gonna hit them, they take advantage of that. So...

11:01
There were a lot of different things that came into play. My faith where family always comes first, my identity as an Italian where family is everything. And then he boil it down to, at the time, the lowest common denominator, which was my, what I felt was my identity as a man, which is certainly you don't talk to people about this. And if you do, you do not allude to.

11:29
how messed up and broken you are. And not only that, but forget talking to other people about those things. I wouldn't even admit those things to myself back then. I mean, the lack of self-awareness was alarming, because I had this blind spot that I know was full of a bunch of junk, and I just absolutely refused to deal with it because that's just not what men do, or at least that's what I thought at the time. Yeah, do you feel that that part of that was like a self-preservation, a self-protection, or...

11:59
Like I somehow I have to survive because my faith and my upbringing tells me that family is number one. But if I actually admit that there's a problem here to myself, then I have to do something about it because I'm a man and that's my role. You know, do you think that there was some self protection there by just kind of. Pretending it. Absolutely. I mean, I don't even know if I was pretending it as much as I just wasn't addressing it. I knew that there was a massive issue and.

12:29
When, when you're seeing pills and chemicals, like a river flowing through your home, knowing full damn well that they don't belong there and they're being used by a person who was front and center delivering the message to you during your upbringing that you don't want to be around anywhere around these things. So the hypocrisy was very difficult to deal with in the sense of entitlement that addicts over time developed to use their to use.

12:57
became quite difficult and more than anything, there was a warping of reality where we would often get into full on arguments about what day it was because she would be so high that I would try and I would say, you know, my it's literally Thursday and you're talking to me as if it's Tuesday, it's Thursday. And she would just go nuclear and triangulate me into some position where I'd have to

13:25
I'd have to get out of the house. I'd have to get out of the house, but she would hide. She had already hidden the keys to my car. So there were just so many, there's so many different ways where I was entrapped and it just became, it just became this super, it was like a bubbling pot of conflicting ideologies at all times where I was damned. If I did damned, if I didn't.

13:49
And there was just no way when you're dealing with substances like that, and they're influencing somebody you love and care about and that, you know, somewhere deep down, they love and care about you too. This idea of morality and right and wrong. It's impossible. I mean, there's no, it's the wild west. Anything can happen. There are no rules anymore. So, but they'll make sure to play on those rules to their favor. So it's just, it was, it was very challenging. And I was a kid, you know, I had no support system. It was just me. Nobody knew.

14:18
Well, you had a support system that was the one being influenced by these drugs, the drugs and alcohol. And I can imagine as a child with that relationship, there's a sense of like, I should be able to fix this. How can I do that? If I stick around long enough, surely she will stop because I can do something. And I can imagine that's why that five to six years part of that was just like,

14:47
Did you feel a responsibility to help her or to fix her? Oh, of course. And I wrote about a couple of things just briefly in the book because I didn't want the book to, I didn't want Aimless to be in any way about this relationship with my mother just to let readers know that this really kicked off something for me. But during those years, Matt, yeah, I did a lot of things for her that no son should ever have to do for their parent unless they're in their.

15:17
very far later years and their health is failing. And I had to do a lot of things like that, that I would never want my son to do for me or my wife, if I could help it. I gave her a great deal of money. I tried to get her to and from places. I tried to talk to extended family to see if they'd be willing to talk to her. I talked to therapists and clergy and one of the most isolating things and kind of what we've already talked about. But when...

15:46
When you're going through something like this, whether you think you're alone or you're not, it's naturally self-isolating. And especially for men where we kind of lurk into the shadow, hide back into the shadows to lick our wounds. Well, that's a self-isolation strategy. In some ways, that's great to do should you go on a spiritual journey and you isolate yourself that way. But if you're banged up, the last thing you want to do is recede into the shadows and self-isolate because you're cutting yourself off from external energies, which will end up helping and assisting you.

16:15
Well, in my case, when I did reach out, especially during those five years, and especially in the last two, when things were really bad, I was met with total disbelief and people attacked my character for not standing by my mother. That included family members that included clergy therapists. It was my problem, which aligned to her message. And I didn't have the words back then to articulate.

16:41
appropriately or effectively just what was happening. So I somehow inevitably, or inadvertently, I should say painted myself as the problem. And she obviously used that to her advantage. And that totally demotivated me from seeking assistance because for years I had tried, I had reached out and was emasculated, discredited.

17:10
And many times people have their own stuff, you know, we all have our own stuff. And it was very, very triggering for them, especially if they knew my mother and I, because we had been close for so many years and it was so obvious. So it was, it was really difficult. What time, like what year, what decade was this? This was the, the really tough years were 2008 to 2013 and 2011 to 2013 were.

17:40
where that was a nightmare. You know, I mean, I think we're getting better in 2022, oh, it's 2023, by the way. Somehow I've lost years as well. But I think we're getting better in the sense that people can speak up in situations like this. And probably that long ago, even though it seems like it was yesterday, that's like 15 years ago, essentially, I can imagine that society wasn't ready to hear that as well.

18:10
And so that puts you back in your spot. You have to fix it on your own. This is your responsibility. Did you find yourself, or if you look back, do you find yourself seeing anything in you that had an addiction or an addictive personality to anything? The reason I ask this is that when I was grieving my mom, it took me like 20 years to grieve the loss of my mother.

18:39
And in that there were periods of like depression and things like that. And I found myself somewhat getting addicted to how I felt in that bad space and stayed there. So I'm wondering, seeing someone with addiction, did you find yourself having any kind of addictive personality traits in what you were doing? No, fortunately, no, but I did have destructive coping mechanisms.

19:07
And that was, uh, excessive alcohol abuse. And I never got addicted to it. It was the B the destructive behavior was I used alcohol to help me sleep because the horrible things happened at night. So when I would shut the lights off, especially after I left my home and did all, uh, tried to carve out a life for myself, the nights were, were really hard and the lights are off, there's no stimulation, there's no distraction.

19:36
And I just couldn't fall asleep because I had had almost 10 years at that point of backlogged experiences, memories, feelings, thoughts, all of these things and processing them. The noise was deafening and it was like torture. So I tried to use alcohol to help me sleep and it, I thought it worked for, you know, a year or two, but then I started realizing that best case scenario, it was helping me fall asleep, but it was guaranteed to prevent me from staying asleep. So I would wake up.

20:05
so many times during the night, then I wouldn't get any REM and then I'd wake up the next day worse off. So I had to substitute a lot of my bad habits out and I articulate a lot of them in aimlessness and another one was sexual promiscuity. So the dopamine hit from that type of fast and loose lifestyle and the sense of adventure, which I found very attractive in the beginning, at least.

20:31
You know, kind of was hard to stop and then you, you get better at it. Maybe you get better at feeling the way that you do and, and then it's incrementalism. So it just becomes your normal. And that for me, you know, I had kind of a barrage of life shifting moments after that, because I had no idea who I was and I was living in different ways. And then when I pursued therapy, that made it even more challenging, uh, because I was met. With.

21:00
it was not a good go round. I mean, I had seven therapists before I finally found one that I connected with. I had five, I get it. Five, yeah, look, it's hard, you know, it's really hard. And if any listeners are out there, you know, if you think therapy is a good tool, my goodness, please continue pursuing it even if it's tough at first, because in my mind, it really is about the relationship you share with that other human being that you call a therapist, but it is another human being and it's really relationship centered.

21:29
I'd like to maybe pick a part. Do you know why that night or that morning, that next morning was your final straw? Do you have an inkling as to like why then and not the night before, not the five times before that? Yes. So it was because she wasn't using and she would look... And she was different. Yeah. Or the same as if she was using. And so our one little...

21:58
little space that we had our relationship was gone. So her demons had pushed all the love out of her life. I don't blame her for anything. There's no judgment for me. I love my mother. I think about her every day. I want nothing but good things to happen to her. I miss her terribly. But that morning was, there was such a sense of finality to it and I remember clear as day, actually coming out of fight or flight and hyper focusing on her and being fully present in the moment.

22:27
and no longer being numb or afraid she's gonna do something, but just being fully present in that moment. And it was clear as day, this is it, this is the end. Choose your words carefully. And for me, it was, I just wanted to know that I'm sorry and I love her and that's it. And that's all the words I could get out of my mouth at that time. I mean, and I think that moment in time shows such strength to choose yourself.

22:56
in a way, you know, to, like, I cannot continue this. And I think that piece resonates with so many people, not in the same experience as you, but just in the sense that we're, somehow we get stuck in this society loop of, like, we have to help everyone else first, but sometimes we can't do that unless we actually choose ourselves first and find out who you are. And it sounds like that was a really big moment in your life of, like, look,

23:25
I have to be number one right now. Like I have to take care of myself and figure out who the hell I am and what I can do with the rest of my life. Do you agree? Oh, of course. Oh, absolutely. I mean, healing is inside out and growth is inside out. You do have to put yourself first. So you're on a plane and the gas mask drops. You have to put your gas mask on before you take care of your kiddo. It's just, it's a logical progression of caretaking and healing. You have to start with...

23:54
with number one and number one is you. That doesn't mean you're more important than anybody else. That's not the point of it. It's just that if you really do wanna contribute and find a purpose, you have to sharpen your saw. I couldn't agree more. I think really at the time, I didn't feel, you think that was brave or courageous. I certainly didn't feel that way. I felt like a total failure. I was no longer a son. I was no longer a brother.

24:23
I had no faith at the time. I had lost a lot of friendships because I was such a wreck that I was like a live wire if I would go out with my buddies. I didn't lose all of my friends luckily, but at that moment, it was just, if I stay in one way, shape or form, my life will be gone. Whether my heart stops beating or I completely lose myself to this relationship, in quotes.

24:52
I got to get out of here. I've exhausted everything I can possibly think of. And I just slept in my car. I don't know how long I was in my car. I don't remember eating. I don't remember bathing. But I was just in my car with my dog at random parks and places that I didn't want to see anybody. And then eventually, I don't know why, I picked up my phone and I reached out to a buddy of mine and said, hey, Mike, I'm banged up. I just need a place to set my feet. And I need a clear head and I need to get a job. And

25:22
That was it. That was all I could think of was just get a job, do something. And take care of yourself. I mean, I think, you know, you say you felt kind of, I don't know if you use the word failure, but that's kind of what I attached to it. Yep. But a failure because you couldn't fix it. And which is... Correct. Which is not a reasonable expectation that someone should have of a child. And I think we kind of put these pressures on ourselves in the moment. I think, yes, looking back, we can see...

25:51
see it a lot clearer, right? But I see it as strength. You might still look at it as, in the moment I felt like a failure, but I was never taught to put myself first in that way or to take care of myself. And you say it's logical, we think of the gas mask, or the, not gas mask, don't put those on first. No, don't do that. Yeah, but we think of these masks in an airplane and we all say it and we all understand it, but I don't think we all practice it. I don't think that we're,

26:21
were taught or conditioned to do that. Most certainly not, I agree. Yeah, and especially as a man growing up, I mean, I grew up in the 80s, 90s, and it was like when my mom died, I knew I wasn't supposed to cry. Like I knew that wasn't, you know, like I was supposed to be okay. And I had to prove to everyone that I was okay. I was eight. It's horrible. It's horrible, but looking back, I understand.

26:50
that that was just a condition of the time and the tools that people had and the things that people were talking about. So as much as it is logical that we should grow from the inside out, I still don't know if people are taught that. And I know that you're trying to help people understand that and grow from that. But I want to bring it back to this part where you reached out for help. It was like, and someone listened. Was that the first time where you

27:16
made yourself vulnerable in that moment and someone was like, look, I gotcha. Well, it was a very difficult conversation. So I didn't share any details. I thought at the time, I thought they were irrelevant. And so I sat down with Mike's parents, Mr. and Mrs. C and they had known me for years. I played basketball with Mike. He's a great friend of mine and great friend of mine to this day. And I'd stayed at their house many times. So, you know, they knew.

27:44
who I was, but didn't necessarily know this was going on because nobody did. And I, I learned not to share it, but I was a mess. I mean, I was a stone cold mess and you know, they, they didn't poke or prod or really try and dig in or get details. They just said, you know, you're safe here. And I just said, no matter what you do, don't, don't tell her I'm here. Uh, don't tell anybody I'm here. So we sat down at the table, uh, the kitchen table, the table I had eaten.

28:12
so many meals with and had great laughs with. And all I could say was, I'm sorry, I'm here and I will get a job as soon as possible and I will pay you for shacking me up. And they were just like, this is, that is not important at all. But that was the only thing I could say to try and cover up. That was the only thing I could think of. Because you were conditioned to be ashamed of your circumstances, which were.

28:41
all out of your control. Absolutely. Yeah, the shame was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. And I'm super proud of myself for leaving at the time. It certainly did show strength to overcome this deeply embedded belief that this is my responsibility. I can fix this. And then also to then the kind of hallmark of toxic masculinity is this idea of autonomy that we are totally self-sufficient in and of.

29:11
ourselves, which is total baloney. And so that was a very humbling experience for me. And he was even more humbling after that, that the one thing I would told them I would do, which was get a job, I couldn't find a job because at that time, there was a big recession and it was very difficult to come by a job. And so that made the shame even worse. So now I'm eating their food, sleeping in their home with my dog, and I can't get a job.

29:38
And it was, that lasted for quite a while. So that moment was, those were some of the worst days of my life, no question. I mean, it was brutal. Because you didn't know who you were. No idea. And you couldn't prove to everyone else that you were fine because you weren't. I wasn't. Right. Exactly, yeah. And so that adds, it's like the snowball effect of, you know, that first of all, I'm in this situation. I can't currently get myself out of this situation.

30:06
people are helping me, they're not supposed to help me because I've been trained that I should do this all on my own. Exactly. Did they teach you a lot by what they did for you? I was adamant that I'm not gonna talk about this. And it was literally just, I'm going to get a job. I'm gonna get a job, I'm gonna earn my time here. Which obviously is aligned to that belief that we do everything on our own.

30:34
So I was trying to hedge this feeling of helplessness by contributing to their household. And they refused every dollar I ever gave them. They just absolutely refused to take any money from me at that time. And I know why they were doing that, but that made it worse for me. So it, and I don't blame them for that at all. I mean, that's what I would do, extending help to somebody else. So it was just the giant storm of total confusion.

31:03
All of my belief systems were up in the air, if not completely discarded. And I no longer held any esteem for the sanctity of marriage. I no longer believed in varying degrees of self-care. I just became very numb. I was so numb. At that point, I had cried so much over those years that I didn't have any tears left. So I was totally and completely depressed and depression for me at that time.

31:33
felt like total despair and a lack of emotion. So it was a pretty scary time. And I'm very lucky that I didn't do something grotesquely stupid because at that time, it kind of made sense to be destructive. Can you remember the first day where the clouds parted a little bit for you to kind of see that there could be a new direction for you?

32:00
Well, yes, actually. And my dad, who I have a great relationship with and who I was in contact with that whole time, he, he was in dire straits as well because of what my mother had done financially. So I couldn't stay with him, uh, but we saw each other every day and we would go hiking, so we would talk a lot, talk a lot and not necessarily about the ins and outs of this, but he said, uh, Hey John, I'd like you to meet this man.

32:29
His name's Gene Miller, and he just wants to meet you. So if you want to meet him, he's a formal Naval Academy guy. He's a Top Gun pilot, and he was the former leadership and ethics professor at the Naval Academy. And I said, that sounds really interesting. I'd love to meet him. And we met at my dad's good friend Clay's office. And I had, at that time,

32:57
called everybody in my phone and said, look, for 10 bucks an hour, I will clean your garage, clean your yard, literally anything that you don't wanna do, I'll do it for 10 bucks, and I just need to do something. And so I met Gene at his office, we chatted for a long, long time. I shared things with him that I'd never shared with anybody about my experience with the medical discharge, which was...

33:25
which was catastrophic for me. It was totally devastating internally. And that's kind of part of the shame leading up to leaving my mother because I wasn't a soldier, I wasn't a son, I wasn't anything. Certainly wasn't a contributor. In your mind. In my mind, correct. Gene said, hey, look, you know, I can't pay you, but I'd like to offer you an internship. I said, great, for what? And he says, well, it's gonna be a service-based job. You're gonna work with a lot of kids. And I had been working with kids since the age of...

33:54
15, 15, 17. I've always enjoyed working with children and young adults, so I said, sure. And he brought me on board and he introduced me to character education and leadership development in a formalized, structured manner. And that became the beginning of the rest of my life. And it's easily that one, my dad reaching out to another man.

34:22
which I only just recently considered, you know, what did he tell him? What did my dad tell him? Was he vulnerable with Gene? Did he tell him my son's in a bad place? That's gotta be hard for a dad to say. So I'm really looking forward to circling back with my dad on that probably today after this conversation. But that really kicked me off. I got introduced to this idea that I could contribute to the lives of others in a meaningful way. And

34:51
that brought my head above water was service work. Well, someone finally saw you and what you could offer the world. And I don't think he would offer an internship to work with kids if he didn't see something in you that you could bring to the table. And I can imagine that a subconscious feeling there of like, I can do something.

35:17
Like you mean that I'm a person with value and I can offer something to the world after years and years of despair and having someone disparage you on a regular basis in your life, I can see that like finally that some stranger believes in you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Matt, it was powerful because I learned down the road that that's, that's what Gene had been doing with his life, you know, with his personal time outside of his profession.

35:46
he would take young men under his wing and mentor them. And so that's where I learned kind of the fundamentals of mentoring and eventually then took those fundamentals along with the tutelage in curriculum design and created my own structured mentoring leadership program for young men. And that's when my turning point.

36:13
after my dad's conversation with Gene and meeting Gene, that's when I got kicked into overdrive. And I became a full-time entrepreneur serving young men. What did that transition look like for you? Living in your friend's parents' house, you had this conversation, what does that change look like? Chaotic, it was chaotic. I moved nine times in two years because I had no money and I had no job.

36:42
When I took the internship, it was for no pay. So I was still doing the 10 bucks an hour deal. And then I also found a job, uh, bouncing bartending and personal training. So I was working three jobs like crazy with no money and trying to get out of debt that I didn't even know I had because it had been handled, uh, by my mom. So I just worked like a dog, moved around couch surfed.

37:11
When I needed to found a place when I could afford it. And that was that. I mean, it was, it was, it was a lot. It was blackout central, uh, just total work. Luckily I started to build more and more self-awareness along the way because I was just gobbling up books. That was how I subbed out alcohol to sleep and I subbed in.

37:38
books late at night with one light on and that would just kind of soothe me to sleep with my head full of interesting things. What kept that fire going? Because I think many people, you know, they can get that light, right? But then there's a lot of work to be done. And if it's this chaotic moving all the time trying to just find your next dollar, what kept your what kept that fire going? Well two things what my parents had said to me and I and and so my mother had always

38:07
filled me with positive messaging growing up, but when she started using it, started to turn and my behavior went down along with her usage. So I started acting like a jerk and, uh, which of course was fuel for her fire. So while my dad was telling me focus on personal growth and contribute to society and live a beautiful life. My mom was.

38:35
And my sister were both telling me that I was going to end up like them, that I was no different than them. So I had my dad's message, which was go get them, you know, whatever knocks you down, no matter what, just stand back up. All that matters is just stand back up. And the other side was deep down. I just, I thought I refused to be like you. I just absolutely refused to be like you. And if nobody's going to.

39:02
virtually nobody because at that point when I was really focusing on self study and faith exploration though I had a couple people in my corner by that point which was those relationships really helped a ton but I was just gobbling up material just thinking what can I learn what can I fill my head with what can I put into practice to get as far away from being like that as I possibly can

39:26
So that was it. I mean, it was some intrinsic motivation. It was some extrinsic motivation. And it was the reality of if I don't clean myself up, I will end up in that place. Where in this journey does that seven therapy professionals come into play? Afterwards, afterwards. Yeah. So I was in the Philadelphia area. And then I moved to Minnesota.

39:55
which is where my wife is from. And by that point, I had just buried everything. And I was fully functional and was having some signs that maybe there was an issue, issues that I hadn't dealt with, but fully functioning, kicking ass, Invictus, the leadership program I mentioned, had taken off. And then just one day I was speaking to my wife and I had an outburst. And...

40:24
I just kind of looked at her and she looked at me and she was just like, where the hell did that come from? And I just, I knew immediately right away. I said, Riz, I think I need some help. I think I need, I think I need some help. I was terrified because I had learned to bury my, bury anger because anger to me would eventually lead to violence. And I was taught never to be violent against a woman. So I...

40:49
when that anger just bubbled right up, no warning sign, no nothing. It was just like a trip wire. I just said, I got to, I got to check into this. And so I asked my wife for help. I said, Hey, risk, you know, I know nothing about the area. I know nothing about therapy. I'm open to anything. So we went through quite a through, quite a few therapists and she came in with me for several of them and they were so awful that even Marissa who had a

41:17
background in psychotherapy was credentialed in equestrian therapy herself, got in the car with me and said, what on earth was that? I mean, it was like I was triggering every therapist that I was working with and they just could not handle me. And I found their rejection to be so distasteful that I wouldn't even bother trying to keep up being cordial.

41:45
And so I kind of played a little rough with my words. And I'm, you know, back then I certainly wasn't proud of it, but you feel pretty justified when you're going in to ask somebody for help and you have a lot of pain and they're sitting there emasculating you, telling you to man up. I mean, I was like, whoa. So that then I explored other routes. Acupuncture was remarkable. And the, when I did equestrian therapy, that was some of the most, that was a...

42:13
a true revelation for me. I mean, it was remarkable to be next to a one ton animal that could kill me with a single stroke and have nobody around and just be with that animal. And for me, and I've read a lot of material on this, this works for a lot of vets with severe PTSD. For whatever reason, it can rewire you enough so that you can actually do the work. And

42:40
I'm not surprised, Matt, when you say that your journey took 20 years. Well, if you've got a backlog, you don't know where to start. And often when you start, it makes it worse, which then disincentivizes you from continuing to do it. So you do need somebody who knows the ropes and can at least give you a process. And what acupuncture and equestrian therapy did for me was it cleared my head just enough that I could start chipping away and processing things.

43:08
And it was a time period between when you left your circumstances and when you started seeking therapy or had this outburst that triggered that. And then to have the awareness of that outburst means like, OK, it's time to try time to start doing something about it. Correct. Yeah. Was therapy something that was ever talked about growing up or was that seen as a weakness? I know that weakness. Totally, totally. Not not just masculine, just

43:38
It was, it was a, it was a stigma. Yeah. Like the idea was you only go to therapy if you're suicidal or if you have a severe eating disorder, that was pretty much it. Or if you, or if you're grieving, it was basically those three and that's all. And so, and then you throw in the masculine stuff and I was a high achiever and it was, it was like, I was literally met with

44:03
You really don't need to be here. And I'm convincing the therapists. No, I do. I do need to be here. I am having intrusive thoughts. I don't know where they're coming from. I'm having full body tremors, massive mood swings, debilitating migraines. I'm like having all of the, I had stage two hypertension blood pressure. I was a mess. Like it unfolded very quickly. And I became a place where I was dysfunctional on a daily basis. I mean, you were the epitome of.

44:32
So many of my guests talk about that book, The Body Keeps the Score. Your body was just like full of trauma and like showing it in all different ways. And you know, the good thing is that you're aware of it and you were able to find the modality that worked for you to help you into this space where now you're kind of deconstructing that toxic masculinity and teaching others, right? Or teaching children, or not children, but young adults.

45:00
Uh, well, at this point, it's literally everybody, you know, I wrote a book by a man for men, for young men and for men, but now it's 50, 50 men and women. And, um, that's a conversation in itself, but I was very, very lucky to find a modality that worked. And I also found a saving grace in lucky number seven and my therapist, Sean, I walked into his office and with literally the moment I sat down on the couch, I just, I said, this is going to work. I mean, there's no doubt this guy gets it.

45:29
He had wonderful energy. He was exceedingly brilliant. He had dealt with gender ideologies as part of his career. A large portion of his career were dealing with people who were trying to figure out gender, gender ideology, struggling with these ideologies. So for me, I went from basically not believing in therapy at all, thinking it was a total joke and just like, this is not, this is not for straight men. I mean, that was literally my opinion at the time.

45:59
to, I never missed a week for two years. I mean, I totally moved my life around going to see Sean Thursdays at one o'clock. And I didn't miss a single session for two years. And without it, I don't know what it would have looked like, but it took two years intensive therapy and a lot of self-work. How do you feel that you're still working on yourself on a regular basis? Or do you feel like you're-

46:25
Aren't we all, you know, thank you. That's the right answer. Yeah. I mean, of course I, I'm not perfect. I don't want to be perfect. I just try and be better than I was yesterday. Uh, but also I'm still learning to cut myself slack, still finding blind spots. I certainly don't keep these things to myself. I have a crew where we share these things with each other in our own way. I think I'm doing the right things, you know, but the, the old voices are always going to be there and.

46:55
I've learned to just make peace with that. Yeah, it's, you know, I'm glad that you stuck with it and you found the right person. I was the same way. My first four people, I was like, what is this? This is not gonna help me. And then the last one, I've said this multiple times now on the show, but the last one, if you were to look at like, her credentials or about her section, you'd be like, there's no way that this woman and Matt,

47:25
just Matt very type A and this woman very like hippie, super not Matt and she was perfect. She was the one that broke through that 20 plus years of grieving and said that the right things that I needed to hear to process and like put the puzzle back together again, if you will. And I'm so grateful that I stuck it out. And it sounds like you're probably in agreement with sticking out therapy when you know you're ready for it. I don't know if the need.

47:55
where it needs to be there. But if you know you're ready for what it brings. Absolutely. I mean, I'm grateful that you stuck it out as well. I'm grateful for anybody who sticks it out because... It's strength, right? It is, it's more than strength. I think it's determination. I think there's a faith element to it, just that, you know, I haven't met the person yet, but there's gotta be at least one person out of 6 billion or whatever we're up to now on this planet that I can talk to.

48:25
uh, work things through with, and there are also other avenues besides therapy. So it, I just, anytime I speak to large groups or even small private mentoring groups, I try and remind them as, as many times as I can do not quit. Don't quit on yourself. The world is hard enough. Don't make it harder. Uh, just keep the faith that tomorrow's a new day and that you have another shot. But the moment you get down on yourself, it, things get really out of control very quickly.

48:55
Where has this life journey taken you now? Like what is your purpose now? What are you doing on a daily basis? Well, first and foremost, I'm a family man that has certainly become my identity. I love being a husband, I love being a father. That doesn't mean it's easy. It's very challenging, but I love it. And every day is a day to make sure that what goes on my tombstone is honest.

49:24
You know, loving husband and father. And then I wrote aimless and I published it in October. It was a passion project. I'm an independent first time author. It was just meant to go to friends, family, and maybe a few strangers. That's not how it worked out. It became an instant Amazon bestseller overnight. Uh, it hitched a ride on Amazon's algorithm and sold more copies in the first 10 days than I ever thought possible. And then it's one awards.

49:54
competing up there from people from the big five publishing firms. And I'm speaking at colleges, I'm speaking at churches, I'm speaking to parents, men, women, gay, straight. I mean, it's just, it's allowed me to form relationships with people that I never would have otherwise had the opportunity to form relationships with. And it's also extended far beyond what I thought possible in terms of the book, finding places.

50:24
So I'm getting calls, these random calls from people now, used to be just young men, but now it's just people that track down my number or my email and say, hey John, do you have a minute? And so, and of course the answer is always yes, because you can't really say no. And I'm hoping I can always do that, that it doesn't get to a point where like, I need to turn my phone off or find a hidden email address or anything like that. And I don't think it will, at least I hope it doesn't. But.

50:52
So I'm spending my day to day essentially trying to spearhead a masculine Renaissance, a masculinity Renaissance of reframing how to be a better man for modern manhood and speaking with whoever wants to talk about it. And turns out a lot of people want to talk about it. So the book is kind of spearheading that it softens the beach, so to speak. Now I'm in the process of writing curriculum for.

51:22
uh, education companies and for organizations or even just families about cultivating constructive masculinity and as well as, and perhaps more importantly, because you kind of have to put the horse out of the cart about how to create structured mentoring programs, which is a lateral relationship wherein an individual is mentored by another individual without being told.

51:51
what to think, feel or believe. It is truly a side by side, not judgmental safe relationship. And what I've seen over the course of 20 years is that nothing else is as effective in the way that it teaches people, no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you have somebody you can talk to about anything without being judged.

52:20
emasculated, defeminized, fill in the XYZ, you know, just fill it in. You can just have this safety with another human being and that safety, the way that it perpetuates personal growth. It's just remarkable. And people want it now because the demand people are, a lot of people are lost. I called the book aimless for a reason. A lot of people are lost and lack direction. And so to be able to provide them with a resource.

52:50
such as the book or as curriculum that could set up a mentoring program in their community. That's what I'm doing right now and I'm very grateful for it. What has this book process taught you about you? Matt, it allowed me to say goodbye to everything. Really wring out the last drops. When it comes to this, we both grieved for different reasons. The loss of our relationship with our mother.

53:18
It allowed me to finally say goodbye, to close the book, to really then acknowledge that I no longer have a foot in that life anymore. It's in the rear view, it's out of sight. I didn't know that was going to happen. I had no idea. I wrote the book originally for me because I just said, I just got to get this out. I want to see what my thoughts look like in black and white. I never intended to publish it. In fact, I ran away from it twice because I got chickened out.

53:48
chickened out because it's just so raw, you know, the book is just so, so raw. That means it's great. It well, great for some, you know, some people don't want to feel that type of vulnerability when they're reading a book. Uh, and that's fine. But if, if you want, if you want energy, you want rawness and you want somebody's honest experience, uh, and insight to life, then, then aimless is for you. But it, it did then allow me to. Not just.

54:17
get my foot out of a former life, but to be fully devoted to this current life and to move forward with that, which the only word I can use, and it just sounds so foo foo, but I truly mean it. It's been liberating. It truly has. And I'm pursuing interests now that I didn't pursue before because I thought I didn't deserve it. But I didn't know I was feeling that way. It's allowed me to season the relationships in my life, take them to

54:47
different places, establish new relationships. Life has just become more abundant and beautiful in its own way. Not to be confused with easier because this is a tremendous amount of work and listening to people share the most horrid parts of their life, as I'm sure you can attest to, at times wears on you and you need support by offering support, you know, because it just, you care about people and the things that they say stick with you. So.

55:15
It's been really remarkable. I'm so grateful. I'm humbled by the stories that people are sharing with me. I'm getting calls from 20-year-olds in the parking lots of rehab centers with guns in their hands about to end their life high as kites. And I have to shepherd them through a conversation into the rehab center. And then I'm getting calls from 80-year-old men and women talking about a moment that they experienced in their 20s.

55:44
Uh, and they just have never shared it with anybody, but they'll share it with me because they think I'll understand. And of course I don't understand, but I do understand how to offer a safe space just so that they can vocalize it as people have done for me and what a gift that is to hold space for somebody. So I think I've grown. I think I'm more aware of my shortcomings, but not in a self-shaming way as I would have been in the past. I think that's a long conversation, but the overwhelming feeling is just gratitude and a sense of freedom.

56:15
I like to kind of wrap up these conversations with a question that can't be done, but if this version of you, John, could go back to the John waking up that morning before you knew you were going to walk away from everything, is there anything that you could say to him that might help? No. There's nothing I could say, but I know that I would have...

56:42
basically extended, extended affection, just a hug, a pat on the back, just any sort of human contact, because that moment to feel such a physical disconnect from your mother, the person who carried me into the planet, physicality in that way, and the healing power of touch is certainly not something that's been lost on me over the years. So

57:12
I know I wouldn't have at the time, there's nothing I could have said to myself at the time because I was deaf. But just a moment of safe man to man affection would have gone a long way. It's a very common response is that there's nothing I could say, but I would give that person a hug. I would let them know that they matter. And that, you know, I often...

57:38
say this about my own experiences, as tough as they were, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change how long it took me to get to where I am now, because all of that made me who I am at this moment in time. And it's very weird to be grateful for really traumatic experiences, but at the same time, this is our life and this is what we do with it and how we process it and how we look at it. And like you said, you don't...

58:06
You understand shortcomings now, but you don't shame yourself for them. You understand them, you give yourself some grace, and you work through them. And that's how we all, as full-formed humans, should be approaching life. So thank you for sharing this story and sharing your vulnerability and your really hard, dark, dark moments. But what you've done with them is inspiring. And I know that people are going to relate to your story, maybe not specifically with...

58:36
your experience with your mother, but just that darkness and that feeling of, I should be able to fix everything because I'm a guy, you know, like, and that's what I was taught to do. So thank you for just being here and being a part of this. We'll certainly share the links to your book and connection with you so people can connect with you and make relationships with you as well, if that's something that you would be good with.

59:02
Absolutely. Thank you for that. Thank you for having me and thank you for doing this. I just think it's remarkable. I I've listened to more than one and I'll definitely be an ongoing listener This is just an incredible thing you're doing Matt and I'm grateful for you. Thank you. I I've said this before it's never I've never made anything so fulfilling and I think maybe you can understand with your book and what you're doing I just had to get here We just had to go through all of that to get to this space in which

59:32
we feel comfortable enough to create the space for others. So thank you for that. If you are listening to this episode now and you're enjoying it, ratings, reviews, those things are fun. I'm not gonna ask for them again. Well, I am. But until next week, we will see you with a brand new episode in just a week's time. Thank you.