Reclaiming Happiness: Overcoming Narcissistic Abuse | Ginny Priem

00:00
So I'm on the edge of the bed and I'm like, gosh, if I can, you know, maybe this girl is crazy, but if I can document and proof source one of the pieces of information in this, then it's probably all true. And it was literally the first phone call I made. I called this Crown Plaza in, you know, one of the locations in the Twin Cities. And I called and I just said that I was his wife and we had this stay that day. And could they email me a copy of the receipt and.

00:28
She put me on hold and I don't know how long I was on hold. It felt like an eternity. So I was like, okay, either she's gonna come back and be like, nope, we don't have any stay on record. And then I keep going down the list, right? Or she's gonna come back and say, yeah, you know, I've got that. And she came back on the line and said, I've got that receipt for you right here. Where would you like me to send it? And so I gave her my email address. And when that ding came through, I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I...

00:56
I felt like I was going to be ill. I ran to the bathroom thinking I was going to actually throw up. And it was one of those moments in your life that you just never forget. This week's guest is my friend Ginny Priem. You may remember her from one of the trailers that I shared from her show a couple months ago. And I had the pleasure of speaking with her about her story that she's written a book about. Now she has a second book out. Congratulations, Ginny. But she shares her story of betrayal.

01:25
and deception. And really her story is about how she recovered from discovering that her boyfriend was a narcissist and was really using her and lying to her. And she discovered all this and then had to really find herself. So we explore the importance of self-reflection and really trusting our instincts. And Ginny shares how she recognized these signs, how someone stepped in and shared it, how she investigated things.

01:53
and then eventually made informed decisions that led to her own growth and healing and really changing her life. Her insights and her wisdom clearly will offer valuable lessons for pretty much anyone that's navigating these unexpected things that happen in our lives and push us off track, and especially those that are seeking personal growth. Before we get into the episode, I just wanna thank all of my Patreon supporters.

02:19
If you are interested in supporting the show, please head over to patreon.com forward slash The Life Shift podcast. There are some tiers at three dollars. Every time five more people join the Patreon, I do a t-shirt giveaway. And those are any of the designs that I've created for the show. So I would appreciate any support that you have. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Ginny Priem. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift.

02:45
candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:59
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Ginny. Hey, Ginny. Hello. Those of you listening, you might recognize that voice because Ginny made a wonderful little hello to all of you to introduce her podcast and talk about coming on the show. So thank you for doing that. That was so much fun. It was my pleasure. And honestly, it was a good exercise for me to kind of...

03:21
take a step back after doing my podcast for almost a year and go, okay, what would I tell people that my podcast is about? And the good news is my audio engineer listened to it and he was like, that was a perfect wrap up of like what drinking with gin is all about. So that was good, it was a good thing for me to do. And it's there forever. So hopefully, you know, people are going through the list and they get to now hear your story, which is interesting because I think

03:51
we connected because I was on an episode of Strong Sunflowers that you listened to. I don't even know how long ago that was. Months ago. And we had to reschedule because I, so we were scheduled months ago. I mean, I think it probably was a good six months ago because that was about when I met those girls and then I recorded on their show. Also, it hasn't come out yet. But yeah, that was a fun way to connect.

04:19
Yeah, I knew one of them through this pandemic master's degree that I'm calling it at this point, in which this podcast was born in just a random elective that I took and I decided that I was going to put my vulnerabilities out into the world. And little did I know that 90 plus episodes later, that I was going to be healing a little bit of that eight-year-old in me that...

04:46
I didn't know still needed some healing. So this has just been such a fantastic journey. And the more I go through this journey, I get to meet people like you because you listen to something and then you took the time to reach out and just mention that you listened to it. And then, you know, and here we are recording. It's just a fascinating industry. It is. You know, after exiting like a over 20 plus corporate career,

05:16
What I've found is, primarily I do keynote speaking, and I'm an author, I'm sure we'll get to that, we'll talk about my book plenty today, and then the podcasting, is that everyone that I've met and networked with has just been so genuine and generous and kind, and even though there's so many podcasts out there, and there's so many speakers, and there's so many authors, nobody takes this competitive.

05:44
attitude like like I experienced so much in corporate where some people would just do anything to You know get to the top and it's been really really refreshing and you are included in that company No, thank you. I have noticed that I've noticed that close to 99% of the people that I've met in podcasting very collaborative very much I'm not holding my secrets behind any kind of wall whereas like you mentioned in corporate or even just

06:14
dare I say in society, it's very competitive and performative. And funny enough, podcasting is kind of performative, right? But yet we have these real authentic conversations or we have some kind of way to be able to connect as two humans, even in a remote setting. And so I'm so happy that I fell into it in a way and then had the nerve to continue doing it, because it's a lot of work, as you probably know.

06:43
Yeah, it is. Well, thank you for doing it and continuing to do it because you are doing some pretty wonderful things with your show. Yeah. Thank you. And I've listened to a couple episodes of your show. And the reason that I say that I've only listened to a couple is as listeners know, I like to not know much about what my guest's story is, because I truly want it to unfold as a conversation. And then you...

07:13
sneaky in the intake form. You were like, well, I'll just tell you when I get there. So this one is it's going to just unravel in a way that will be unique. I love it. Well, great minds think alike. Do you do the same thing? I yeah, I think that there's something to be said when you can have a real raw honest conversation with somebody live. And so I think that there's something to be said about

07:42
having that reaction in person. I recorded an episode, the one that comes up for my show tomorrow, and I knew this person, but I never heard her full story. And I like to be able to experience it as a listener, as a fan of the show, and hear it together. Yeah, hear it together, almost like we are hearing it together. And sometimes I happen to know a little bit more about the story, and that's okay too.

08:11
because you're going to hear different components or parts of it that you didn't know before. But whenever I guest on a show, I always listen to at least one, if not more, because I want to get to know the host and the audience and what your listeners want to hear and kind of what you're all about. I think that's the respectful and professional thing to do. So and it also just gives you a little taste. It is, you know, before we get into your story, it's it's so

08:41
nice because oftentimes I have the, I think, fortune, I would say, of I have professionals, quote unquote, professionals come on this show that typically they'll go on other shows, they have their bulleted list of talking points that they need to make sure they hit and that's fine. But somehow they like come here and they're like, you know, like, we can just we can just talk and if we don't hit that bullet point, that's okay. Because

09:08
we're having this real conversation and wherever it goes, it goes. And so I feel really lucky that that happens. But I can imagine what it's like in those other podcasts where it's like, okay, I know you only have 25 minutes and I need to hit these five things and we need to sell a million books and all these things that go along with it. So maybe I took the easy way out, but. No, I think it's great. And I've had this feedback also from guests. And I think what you do is you provide your guests the space.

09:36
to actually share their stories, rather than you navigating it or dominating the conversation and having an agenda. And I think that's what's great. That's what storytelling is all about. I have one agenda and it's just the life shift, right? I feel like that's, I think we've had, we all have many of them I've since discovered. And I have two and I really thought my pivotal moment was like when my mom died. And then I've come to learn that I've had a other.

10:05
maybe more significant moments or more specific moments. And so, you know, maybe to kind of set the scene for your story, you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to it after you give us a little bit about who you are right now. That way people know. Well, I think I kind of alluded to already that I do keynote speaking. I am an author. My book is called, You're My Favorite. And we'll get into a bunch of the juicy details.

10:32
that are in there. This story is really what started it all and why I do what I do now. And I think that's why the shift for me is so important. And then I also, like we already know, I have my podcast, Drinking With Jen, and then I also do some, I'm a life coach. So that's kind of like what I do in life. What brings me joy in life is all of that. And also I love to travel. I have Nemo's

11:01
perfect Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. She's a redhead and her name is Francine. So if you hang out with me on Instagram, you get to see plenty of her and what she's up to and how she just adds so much joy to my life. So yeah, that's a little about me. Dogs are great, you know. I was just talking about the routine that I have to go through to get my crazy old dogs to behave. One is fine, she'll sleep in anything. The other one.

11:31
He needs a little bit, so. But Francine sounds like the perfect name for a perfect dog. Yeah, yeah, it's very fitting. People love, when I'm walking her or bringing her somewhere and people see her, she travels with me. She's been on over 20 flights, and so people love her and they're like, what's her name? And I'm like, Francine, and everyone's like, oh, that is just the best name for her. Like, it is fitting to A.T., yeah. She's living up to it. She is.

12:01
Well, why don't you kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this moment and then we can just go from there. I think I'm going to do it twofold. So I want to start actually, I'm going to start and paint the picture for you of the first chapter of my book and you can read the first chapter for free on my website, which is jennypreem.com. So then that just kind of gives you a taste. And then there's a link that you can just click and buy the book because after you read the first chapter, you're just going to want to buy the book.

12:31
That was intentional. But basically, I'm in this relationship with a man, he lives in my house with his two children. And they spend about 60% of their time with their mom and about 40% with us. And I'll get to the backstory in a second, but this was, and this is why I started my book this way, is because it was such a huge moment in my life. And we had just gotten back.

12:59
from this very elaborate, very expensive 10-day vacation to Italy, just the two of us. And then I had to turn around. I traveled a lot for my work. I traveled basically every week. I was flying somewhere. And I was in Birmingham, Alabama. And this is approximately Tuesday, November 13th, 2018. I'm coming back approximately.

13:23
And I am coming home and I had asked if Tuesday nights was not our regular night with the kids. We had them Thursday to Sunday morning. And we were going to Washington that weekend, Washington state for my nephew's wedding. And my nephew and I have an incredible bond. I lived with them when I was like 12 and he was a baby. And so he and I just always had like this really special bond. We still do today.

13:52
And so I was really excited to go to the wedding, but that meant that we would miss a full cycle with the kids and we wouldn't see them for two weeks. And I had never gone that long without seeing them, since I had met them. And so I had asked their mom if we could have the kids for the night. She said, sure, no problem. And so I was really excited, even though they'd be in bed by the time I got home, because I was landing at approximately 9.37 PM from this work trip.

14:22
And my favorite time with the kids though was the mornings. So mornings were like Ginny's time with the kids, like get them up. They're so sweet in the morning. You know, their school age, I don't reveal their genders or their ages for their protection. I'm very, very protective of them. And so we'll just say their school age at this point and, you know, get them up, make them breakfast, get them to school. Like that was our jam. Like we loved our little routine of that.

14:52
So I was excited to do that the following morning before then we were getting ready to head to Washington. And I get a text message from a friend, and she says, hey, what time do you land tonight? 9.37 p.m. Great, can you meet me for a cocktail? And I was like, all right, I'll have me some cocktails and I'll have me some wine, but we were not Tuesday night cocktail kind of friends.

15:18
We would do coffee or workouts, but we'd never met for cocktails before. And especially not at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday night. Like very un-romal. Anyone that knows me knows that 10 p.m. is like the middle of the night for me on a Tuesday. So very, very unusual. So all day, I'm going into this, because she's not giving me anything, and my life's so great. I'm like, what is going on? So I'm like.

15:43
trying, you know, like have all these thoughts going through my mind. Like is there something with one of her family members? Like all I keep thinking about all day is how am I going to show up and be a good friend? How am I going to show up and be a good friend to this person that needs to meet me urgently? Like obviously something major is going on. So I walk into this restaurant just after 10 and they close at 11 so we've got limited time.

16:13
And I walk in, it's pretty empty, and I see her, and I walk over to the booth, and she's sobbing, she's shaking, she's got an empty cocktail. I ordered a big juicy glass of red wine because it's winter in Minneapolis, and she orders another cocktail. I don't know how many that is at that point. Clearly she had been there for a while. And we get the drinks, and I sit down in the booth, and I reach across the table for her arm, and I'm like, I have been worried about you all day.

16:43
You know, what is going on? And she says, this isn't about me, it's about you. It's actually about Chad, the guy that's at home sleeping in my bed. And the stack of papers was just a ton of evidence of lies, deception, betrayal. I had no idea who this person was that was living in my house. Sitting there, she was like,

17:12
This is where your life changes. This is the line in the sand of, guess what, everything you've been doing for, how long had you been together? Just about a year and a half, just under a year and a half. And so it's like that moment for me, that shift was, I walk into this restaurant, one woman with a certain life, and now I'm leaving, facing that that's not my life at all. Plus you walked in.

17:40
ready to hold space for someone else and someone else's trauma or whatever it might be, and probably not prepared to hold your own trauma in a sense of the news that you got. Were you in a state of disbelief or are you someone that is like, give it to me, let's go, let's figure this out? Yeah, I was like, give it to me. That's actually how the first chapter ends, is she's like, do you want to hear it? And I said, yes, of course.

18:10
And then I go back and kind of share the story of how we met and everything. And before meeting him, if you just picture main character energy from like a Netflix movie or series, like that was me. Like I was very career focused. I was traveling all the time for work and then traveling in my free time for fun and you know, in my free time spending time with my friends and mostly my dogs. But, you know, just really had this life that I could

18:40
you know, do whatever I wanted. I was so happy. And that's why I was actually really hesitant to date Chad when we first met was A, my life was so great. And then also he had these two kids. And that was gonna kind of blow it up in a way. But in a good way, I mean, did it? It ended up being, it ended up- Well, what you imagined it to be. Yeah, I mean, I had dated guys with kids before and you know, I'm not-

19:09
adverse to it, but it just adds extra layers of complexity. It's like when I did start dating him and became open to it, yes, I of course fell in love with him, and then I met as kids, and I fell in love two more times. That creates more complexity. I think sometimes that can create a little bit of a sunk cost fallacy.

19:36
are in a relationship like, well, I've invested this much, even if there are some red flags and some signs. And yeah, I think it's just different. It adds a lot, right? When you don't have kids of your own and then you welcome them into your life. Yeah, but the way you were describing your life was kind of like, well, in the words you used, it felt very idyllic. It felt like...

20:01
you were traveling and you were working and you had this love for these kids and your relationship was seemingly fine, which would make me think if I walked into that restaurant, I would have a sense of denial when someone brought that up, but you said it was just like, let's go, let's figure out this thing, or were you like, no way, this is not, this couldn't, life is good. Yeah, so at first.

20:28
One of the dates that she gave me, I was like, oh no, I was home. We had just gotten back from Italy. And she was like, no, actually I went back and I looked through our texts. I tried to fact check as much stuff as possible. She goes, I'm pretty sure you were in Orlando. Check your calendar. And I looked and I was like, oh yeah, you're right. So at first I think I did kind of wanna deny it. And then once I was able to digest it. And you know, I didn't say a lot, I didn't cry, which was really interesting. And she even commented on that.

20:58
you're not crying, you must be in shock. How are you not more upset and like more emotional?" And I was like, well, there were some red flags and there were some things that I hadn't shared with anyone except for one friend. And it was because I think part of the reason why I would share my doubts or insecurities or issues in the relationship with her is because she was such a big supporter and proponent of the relationship. She was there the day that we met. I think I felt like, you know, she would help.

21:27
dismiss any issues that I might have been sensing or feeling. And that is kind of what happened. So some of the information that she told me, I feel like it kind of made a little bit of sense. And for me, I am very much a person that makes decisions based on information and data. I'm not generally a super emotional decision-making person.

21:57
And so for me, when I went home, I was very careful about what I shared with him. So I didn't give him very much information. I hardly gave him anything because I wanted to see how he responded and what I could get out of him almost and see how he reacted and how he behaved. And when I first came home, he was very like patient and...

22:26
understanding and open to the conversation. And then I think as soon as he knew that he was not going to get out of this, the switch flipped. And he got angry, he got upset, he started to try to flip it back on me. And then basically what happened was, yeah, we talked for maybe 45 minutes, and then he was like, I know this is more important, but I need to get up in the morning for work, so I need to get some sleep. And he went and slept on the couch.

22:56
I was very dismissive. And of course, like all night, I was just a wreck. I couldn't sleep. My adrenaline was just pumping over time through my body. Like I say this all the time, like I literally was having to get up to pee, like every 10 to 15 minutes, just because my body, my whole system was completely dysregulated. Were you trying to figure out things like puzzle piece or was it more figure out?

23:23
plans on what's next? Which side were you in? I think I was still on the how does everything line up. Yeah, I think I was trying to do that. And it's like, I couldn't do anything. It's the middle of the night. The kids are downstairs, you know, sleeping in their beds. I am, who am I gonna call? It's the middle of the night. And so I just kind of laid there and racked my brain. And then he...

23:51
The next morning, remember, morning time with the kids was like my sacred time. I heard him wake them up at like 5.30 in the morning, completely inappropriately early, and then scuffle them out of the house. I think he took them to breakfast and then to school. And so when I woke up, this was another like kind of big shift moment. There's a couple of these moments, like me sitting on the edge of the bed and having

24:18
like these big moments happen in my life is really interesting. So I'm sitting on the edge of my bed and I, so one of the pieces of information was that there was this girl that thought that she was his girlfriend and she had given some dates that she was with him and some different hotels that she had spent with him and his response and I brought her up was she's crazy. The only thing I ever did to her was, you know, wanted to stop dating her.

24:49
And so that I'm also crazy just for the record. Naturally. It's not him. Naturally. Yeah, no, but that's, that's the only defense that he has been able to come up with. So congrats. Yeah, I know. Okay. It's really creative, really creative. Chad Chad is not his real name, but he hates that name. So that's why I picked it. The little things sometimes. So anyway.

25:13
I, this date in this hotel were not necessarily aligned, but for some reason, it was the date that I was in Orlando. And I'll back, I can circle back to that moment too, because I think it's an important piece of the story in helping me turn into my most authentic, true version of myself that I am today. So I'm on the edge of the bed.

25:42
And I'm like, gosh, if I can, you know, maybe this girl is crazy, but if I can, you know, document and proof source one of the pieces of information in this, then it's probably all true. And it was literally the first phone call I made. I called this Crown Plaza in, you know, one of the locations in the Twin Cities, and I called and I just said that I was his wife and we had this stay that day, and could they email me a copy of the receipt and.

26:09
She put me on hold and I don't know how long I was on hold. It felt like an eternity. So I was like, okay, either she's gonna come back and be like, nope, we don't have any stay on record. And then I keep going down the list, right? Or she's gonna come back and say, yeah, you know, I've got that. And she came back on the line and said, I've got that receipt for you right here. Where would you like me to send it? And so I gave her my email address. So when that ding came through, I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I...

26:38
felt like I was gonna be ill. I ran to the bathroom thinking I was gonna actually throw up. And it was one of those moments in your life that you just never forget. Well, it almost seems like that you needed your own proof in a way that, was your friend like a PI or something? Was like, why did they have that much data? So I don't actually know that I buy.

27:07
her version of how she got this information. Somehow a connection was made and this girl was convinced to come forward. By the way, this girl who thought she was his girlfriend was trying to win him. And I was like, oh man, what a prize. But she wanted him to break up with me to be with her for a while. I think once she realized the scope of his illness and...

27:36
you know, his scope of deception and there's so much more. It's not like this story is so much bigger than just cheating. I mean, this guy is a financial fraud. Like a bunch of his clients found out that he was charging their credit cards for services not rendered. And so they had to cancel their credit card so that he would stop, you know, fraudulently charging their credit cards. Like we don't think he does his taxes like

28:05
The so wasn't just about you necessarily you just got wrapped up in the tornado of Chad yes Chad's tornado. Yes Chad's tornado. Yeah, I mean like he acts like he's a doctor He pretends to be a chiropractor and will perform chiropractic adjustments on people. Yeah, which is not only illegal I mean, it's incredibly dangerous, you know, I mean and that's like that's the grandiosity of you know his

28:34
So he's living in a fantasy world. Did he create a fantasy? Like the life that you were living with him Did it ever feel like too good to be true or any of those moments? Yes, and you just kind of dismissed that Absolutely. I mean the love bombing the putting me up on a pedestal at first The mirroring I mean, I've learned so much about this and the you know, the after the after effect of everything

29:02
There's early on in the book, because it was early on in our dating, we weren't even really dating yet at the time, but he asked me what my favorite candy was. I was like, I'm not a huge candy person, but hands down, if I picked a favorite candy, it would be Sour Patch Kids. It was like, no way. Oh my gosh, that's my favorite candy too. We're totally getting, we're going to get married. That is not normal. That's not normal behavior.

29:30
Okay, so you explained kind of your life, you were achieving, you were doing well in your career, you were enjoying your life, you had friends and all this stuff. Was part of your MO at the time that this relationship has to succeed? And so that's why we kind of ignore the flags. Because I feel like the reason, I'm probably projecting a little bit here in general in life is that I felt.

29:59
you know, after my mom died, I felt that I had to do everything right. And I had to achieve, achieve, achieve so that abandonment of from my father because my mom abandoned me in my small brain because she died. So I was always afraid that if I didn't top marks achieve everything that my dad also would do that. And so do you feel that any of that was like this has to succeed? This has to be good. Everything else is good. Everyone can see that I am achieving.

30:28
Do you think there's any tie to that? I can absolutely relate to the idea of perfectionism. And maybe we circle back to that in a little bit and like we can talk about parents because I think that's an important part of my story. I think that I was in a place that probably was part of it. Like, you know, everything I do, I succeed at and people were making comments about like, they loved seeing me.

30:56
so happy and in love and, you know, I think other people wanted it for me too. I also think that's a subconscious thing. I don't think that we do this on purpose as well, or I don't think I did. I think that was just how it had to be. Like, you know, so it wasn't, I didn't ask this in a way that.

31:17
might feel insulting if it did. Oh gosh, no, that doesn't feel insulting. No, like I can relate to perfectionism, let me tell you. Yes, absolutely. But also like society and growing up, that's all we see is the good things. We don't see necessarily the bad things. And if we see the bad things, they're in an extreme, right? There's something like that could never happen to me or I would never, you know? And so I think we're also conditioned in a way that we're supposed to be good at everything.

31:45
Well, I was especially conditioned just because of my family and the way that I grew up. And that was a lot of what I learned in the process. And I really appreciated how you brought up inner child and doing some inner child work and healing that because that was also a big part of my healing journey. And I think if people haven't done that and tapped into their inner child and doing that work of healing, I highly recommend it.

32:16
Yeah, I mean, I didn't understand how much something that happened to me at eight controlled what I was doing when I was 35. You know, like I just didn't get it. And I think you don't get it until you get it. You know, I think it's one of those things where you have to find it at the right time and you have to digest that. You have to be ready for it, I guess, just like anything else, just like therapy, just like leaving a relationship or accepting.

32:45
whatever, you know, like you have to be ready or you'll convince yourself otherwise. Absolutely. What transpired from there? So I texted him a copy of the receipt. When you when you get the receipt? Yeah, so just in case you misplaced your receipt, I've got a copy for you right here. I didn't hear from him for nine hours. And then it was I need to come get some stuff. And I had already decided that I was going to be.

33:13
taking back my space, and I was not going to let him back into my home. So it was my home that they moved into. And so, and he was furious when he showed up and I wouldn't let him in my house. I had his friend come in and we packed him some clothes or whatever. And then just through that whole situation, but he never communicated with me again, except for logistics. It was all logistics from there and out. Just from that, after that receipt? Yep. Wow.

33:41
purely logistics only, because he knew that he had been seen without his mask. And then there's no going back from that for them or for him. And that weekend, I had, on that Friday, so this was a Wednesday morning when I got the receipt, sent that to him. Friday, I packed up all of his stuff and I had a couple of people help me. We put it all in the garage.

34:09
He was trying to even control and manipulate when he came to my house to pick up the stuff, but we were supposed to be gone that weekend. I missed my nephew's wedding, which still just does not sit right with me. Luckily, he and his wife are so wonderful and gracious. Like, we have plans this weekend. They actually moved back here. They're not back. They moved to Minneapolis last year, which has been so fun to have them here close by. But I knew that he didn't have plans because we were supposed to be around.

34:38
And he kept saying that the times that I gave him, which by the way, I was giving him like four hour blocks of time, he was saying that they wouldn't work and that he needed to come on Thursday to pick everything up. And I just told him that I recommended that he, this was, I was very, very firm, like, and I just told him that I suggested that he find time in the options that I was giving him or I could arrange to have everything set out on the curb. That's the place that I was at with this guy.

35:06
So yeah, he then miraculously figured out how to work into the time. And when he showed up, he couldn't even look at me. He couldn't even look at me. Like he never even- Because you saw the real him. Yeah, and that to me then showed like what a coward he really is. He's still in from everyone, whether that's money or love or anything. It's a big charade, it sounds like. Yeah.

35:36
It's probably a condition that he's been doing his whole life and learned that that's the way he felt good when he could do it. But he didn't even let down his mask. Someone else had to do it for like to expose that. Looking back, though, do you see? Do you see any spots?

35:55
Oh yeah, I mean, there's so... Like moments? Absolutely. Yeah, there was... So when I came... Okay, so I've mentioned the Orlando thing, right? Right when we got back from Italy. And everything makes sense now, right? Like hindsight's 20-20. It all makes sense, especially because of the journey that I've gone on since. But we had just gotten back. I had to turn around, go to Orlando for work. And...

36:22
I remember I was sitting on the edge of the bed at the JW Marriott in Orlando and it was terrible. Actually, it was terrible. Now I think about it because I'm a very intuitive person and I think for my whole life I suppressed it and now I'm very, very tuned into it. But I was sitting on the edge of the bed texting with him and he was saying, yeah, I'm too sick to even be a dad tonight.

36:50
And so he took his kids and ditched them at his ex-wife's sisters who had five kids and an infant. So six kids, one of them an infant. And- It's two more. Yeah, it's two more at that point. And he was saying, I don't feel I'm gonna go to bed. And it was like 7.30. And I was like in for 7.30 and then like I texted him again and he never responded. And I just-

37:16
I was sitting on the edge of the bed and I just felt like this wave come crashing over me like something's wrong. Something isn't right. And the next day I woke up with this massive lesion on my face. It was shingles. I got shingles on my face. From the stress? Yeah. My body.

37:45
was so my body and myself, I was so stressed. And I think that's something to like, to not ignore, like don't ignore the physical signs that your body is giving you. I also had an abnormal skin cancer lesion while I was with him, the shingles. And I actually had a dermatologist on the dermatologist that diagnosed me with my shingles on my podcast. And she talked about that, like how stress manifests in our bodies.

38:12
And so I had come home that weekend and I knew, I knew in my bones, I felt it in my soul, like I knew. And that weekend when I came home, I drove, I had to go to the grocery store because I did everything. I paid the bills, I did the grocery shopping, I made sure the kids had clothes, that laundry was done, the lawn was mowed, the house was cleaned. Meanwhile, traveling like half the time. And so I went to the grocery store and I went to the back.

38:42
of the parking lot and I called my friend, my one friend that I would actually talk about things with that weren't great in the relationship. And I just, I called her sobbing. I was like hyperventilating and she was like, Jenny, breathe. Like I am so worried right now. Like what's going on? And I told her, I was like, I just know it in my soul. Like I feel it in my bones. Like he cheated on me like while I was gone. I just, I know this. And

39:09
And the other thing too is like I started behaving outside of my normal character. So, and what I mean by that point before that, I mean, even before that, and that's another hindsight too is like, when you start doing things that are outside of your normal character, like that's another sign to like stop and sit with that and be like, is this normal or abnormal, but yeah, like appeasing it, like in a way to appease or to make the situation easier.

39:38
Because I was suspicious of things. So like I, so he takes Viagra like candy because he's very busy. And so- And you're crazy. And I'm crazy. So I started like counting his pills. And then I was worried that he wasn't coming home while I was gone. And so I turned on alerts from the security system so that I could see when there was motion in the house.

40:09
And there were times that there was no motion in the house. And by the way, I had an elderly dog. So he would leave, like he would neglect and abuse my dogs. I mean, it's just, and the lies too, like he told this girl, the one girl that, now I've learned that there was multiple girls and women that thought they were his girlfriend when he was living in my house. But he told this girl that he,

40:38
I couldn't find out about her because they would lose my health insurance and one of the kids had brain cancer. And they didn't. They did not. Yeah. It sounds like he's just consistently searching for something to fill an empty hole. Yes. And more ways than one, Matt. Well, I understand that. It's so weird that this thought came across my mind. And I...

41:07
you almost feel bad saying it is that's like, I almost feel bad for him in the sense of like, as a human, like to have to 100% search every minute of your life for the next high, if you will, or whatever it is that's like, and just never finding it, you almost feel bad for you don't, but you almost feel bad for human experience like that, because it's really sad in a way.

41:34
I mean, he's hurting everyone else around, but thinking not Chad specifically, but a person that just can't find it, knowing what you know now, there's like, I almost feel bad. I feel bad saying that I feel bad. No, I've gone through moments where I've felt sorry for him. I don't feel sorry for him and for what he's doing. I just, I feel like I wish someone could smack him and be like, wake up. Look what you're doing to yourself.

42:01
Like, and everyone else, but look what you're doing to yourself. If you fix this, you'll probably fix all these other things. Yeah. Well, I think for me, what I really struggle with is the emotional and mental abuse and manipulation that I see him do to his children. You know, it's like it's bad enough to do it to me and to all these other women and girls. And by the way, there are countless ones of them. So.

42:24
Like right away when my book came out last year, I started getting messages from women that came across my book or they heard about it and they were like, hey, I'm also a survivor of the real life Chad. And this like trickled in like slowly consistently, like constantly, I was getting messages from women. And of course, when I put my book out, I hoped that I would shed light on the Chad's of the world and I had no idea how many.

42:53
women the chat has actually affected. And so a few months ago, this is kind of juicy. So a few months ago, there was a photo of him posted in the secret Facebook group that has over 33,000 members. And it's kind of like you post it and see if you can get any tea or like, does anybody have any information? Yeah. Or like, are there any red flags on this guy?

43:22
like instantly like 100 women commented. And then they all started having conversations with one another in the private chats, started sending each other, you know, the, hey, you've got to read this book. There's a book about this guy in real life. Like, I mean, it was fascinating. And then in the same week, another photo of him was posted and the comments just ensued. And I started getting, I mean, it is, like I said, it is countless women at this point that have reached out and said,

43:52
survivor or a victim of the real-life Chad. He found out about it apparently I think after I was I did a TV segment about it I was on a talk show and I think he found out about it after that and then started calling some of the women that he had victimized and started like bullying them and trying to shame them for not sticking up for him. Like he literally called one of them and was like

44:21
Hey, I can't believe you didn't stick up for me in that chat and say what a good guy I am. He's a wounded child. He's like, it's a child. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So that was kind of interesting. That was like a, that was an interesting experience. And, but the cool thing about it is I'm actually getting together with one of the women that found out about it via that chat this week, because we actually do some similar work, which is really fascinating. And. It's.

44:49
The words that these women have used to say thank you to me for writing my book and putting my story out into the world is that it's given them validation. It gave them clarity, enclosure. It made them feel like they weren't alone. It made them feel like they weren't crazy. You know, it opened some of their eyes. Like one of the women had been dating him on and off for eight years. And she...

45:15
She had literally had plans with him like that Saturday when she found out about my book. And, you know, they're like, you saved me from him. And then the cool thing is, is these women then started connecting with one another and sort of creating community and connection and, you know, validation for one another. So it's pretty amazing. You just never know, you know, what can come from something. Yeah, it's, I mean, I think that's kind of the feeling that

45:44
I get sometimes with the life shift is that like people hear someone else's story and they're like, I just validated my experience. And sometimes that's all we need because we feel, I don't know, we assume some kind of shame around the situation that we're in or something or how we're feeling about something. And then when we hear that there are countless other people out there that may have unfortunately experienced the same thing, there's this sense of peace that comes over a little bit because you're like, okay, well, it's not just me.

46:14
You know, like, I feel like I'm not crazy, like you say. So that's, I mean, that's wonderful. Little did you know that by writing this book that you would create that though, you know, right? That was not really part of the plan, but I'm so grateful that's how it unfolded. Did you find when you were writing the book that it was healing for you? Did you find a sense of closure of some sort? So I'm a big proponent of that you tell your story differently.

46:43
when you're healed. So I was very intentional, like had I put my book out any sooner, it would have been a different book. And when I went back, I actually even put it on the shelf for about a year and a half. And when I came back to it and I started rewriting and kind of shifted the format a little bit, I was like, that girl was angry. And that's okay. Rightfully so. Yep. And rightfully so.

47:12
That wasn't where I was at because I had moved beyond it, you know, and I had come back to visit, and that also wasn't what I wanted to portray. But I do think it's important to acknowledge, you know, the emotions and the feelings that you have when you are going through your situation. And grief is a funny thing, right? I mean, you are gonna go through a lot of different phases of, you know, maybe feeling sad, upset, angry. Okay. Oh, yeah, okay. I mean, there's...

47:38
so much that goes into it. And I think just acknowledging it and knowing that's okay wherever you're at. Yeah, well, I think a lot of us are trained or not trained to lean into it. We kind of run away. Like we feel like grief has to be this, that or the other. Someone taught us that you have to be sad all the time, or if you're happy, why are you happy? And I think stories like yours, people going on shows like yours, on shows like mine, and just putting like,

48:07
real life out there to see how everyone will process things differently, like you said, but there are still similarities and commonalities through the stories because we're all human trying to do this same thing. We're trying to, well, some of us, maybe not Chad, but we're all trying to put good into the world and enrich our own lives through the relationships or the things that we experience. I think that's a great point. I love that you-

48:38
shelf the book because I bet there was even more healing when you read it and realized that older version of you and then seen how far you've come. Was that like a big awakening of like, wow, really have come a long way. Yeah, that was huge. And it's so funny, I actually forgot this, this is an important part of my story, I think. So the next day, right, like the morning I got the hotel receipt.

49:06
People are like, well, then what? Like, what's next? Well, I got my nails done. And a lot of times people are like, you're in, you're grieving and you went and got your nails done? And so I think this is important because grief is a funny thing. I was in shock. My body was in shock. And at that moment, I didn't know what to do next. And so all I could do is look down at my schedule.

49:33
see what was next and just do that next thing until I could get my head right. And in hindsight, getting my nails done was probably one of the best things that I could have done in this state of grief, in this state of shock, to literally have someone holding my hands for 45 minutes and having that physical touch and that oxytocin and the endorphins going. So I think granting yourself some grace when you do go through something,

50:02
that's traumatic for you and not beat yourself up, right? I know sometimes people are like, you got your nails done, what? But, and I just, I think that's an important message, as part of it, as you're moving through things. And yeah, I did some petty-patty stuff. When I was packing up his stuff, did I put a lot of tape around things and tape- I hope you put some dog poop in there. I didn't put any dog poop in there, but I did tape some-

50:32
sex therapist recommendations locally, and then, you know, like spun, yeah, little passive aggressive things, because I was angry at the time. Right, as you should have been. Yeah. But I, you know what, when you said that you got your nails done, I didn't even flinch, because I thought, I thought, yes, she needed a sense of normalcy. She needed something that felt normal, that felt like something she could control that she normally does, and she knows how it feels, and she knows what the outcome is, but I love.

51:01
that your reflection on that was the human touch, the human care, the feeling of another person caring for you in a way that makes you feel good because a lot of people attach how they feel to their nails or how they look. And the industry that you were in for so long as well, you're kind of ingrained in you. So none of that felt weird. And it's...

51:28
I always think people's responses to someone going through grief is a lot more about them than it is about our own journey. Maybe they haven't processed whatever was going on in their life. What changed the most about you? It seems like you did a complete 180, but what do you feel is the biggest difference between you now versus you in that relationship that seemingly was successful and doing her thing?

51:56
I have so much to say about that. I think I started to become more open-minded. About a year after we split up, I was on a field ride with a rep. I was working with a rep, a sales rep, and I'm in her car riding along with her for the day and I get this email come across and it's an invitation to a meditation retreat in Mexico.

52:21
And she, so I kind of said, I was like, huh, like I think I kind of like muffled, like mumbled something under my breath. And she was like, what? And I was like, oh, I just got like this weird like invitation to a meditation retreat in Mexico. She was like, well, we're in Mexico. I was like, San Miguel de Allende. And she was like, you mean San Miguel de Allende? I was like, yeah, there. She's like, it's one of the most magical places on earth. If you can go, you should go. I was like, well, I could really use a vacation.

52:49
But meanwhile, I never had meditated for a second in my life. But this is kind of true Ginny fashion, like, okay, well then I'll go on a meditation retreat for five days in another country. Like, I go all in. So that, I had no idea how healing and what a big part of my transformation that experience would be. And it was right before I left, I was in a coffee shop and Chad turned me off from men so much for...

53:19
good while like I couldn't even look at like I couldn't even find a man attractive like you could have put you know name any Most you know sexiest man alive in front of me and I would have been like meh But it was right before I was leaving for that trip I was in this coffee shop, and I remember leaving I get out to my car, and I was like oh he was kind of cute and I was like

53:42
It's back. I just found a guy attractive and that was a really big deal. So then I go on this meditation retreat and I meditate for the first time. And that was actually where we did some inner child work. And I tapped into, for me it was a moment from when I was four. My mom was in inpatient treatment and my dad was working, trying to keep everything afloat.

54:09
And my sister, she's my half-sister, but she's my sister. She was 16 at the time. She's 12, 13 years older than me. And she's in high school. She's trying to watch me, babysit me. She's in high school. She's in sports. She's got a boyfriend, keep up with her friends and her activities. And she was supposed to be watching me and she fell asleep on the couch. And I think when I think about...

54:36
the statement or the sentiment of what I was feeling as this four-year-old girl, I went up into my mom's bathroom. And by the way, there was always, I was a really cute little girl. Like, I don't know what happened, but I had like these bright blue eyes, like ringlet curly hair. And there's always a lot, like my mom would always talk about how people would stop her in the grocery store to comment on how cute I was. And so there's a lot of attention.

55:05
on my physical appearance as a little girl. So I went up to the bathroom and I cut my hair. I cut the little ringlets off. And then when we went to go see my mom to go visit her, she cried at my physical appearance being altered. That was her response. And I think for me at that time, at four years old, that's kind of when I became an adult, at four, was...

55:34
sending that message, I can take care of myself. Why do you think you cut your hair off? Did you dive into that? I think it was, I'm a big girl and I can take care of myself. I got this. Yeah. Got it. And so that was, I think, you know, like everyone always said, I was an old soul. I grew up so fast. I was always so mature. And you know, like it all really started to make sense. And I think that was a really big.

56:01
part of my healing process and really understanding my relationship with my mom. It took me a long time to actually be able to talk about it. Incorporating meditation has made me more relaxed, less reactive. There's a whole lot that's gone into my healing journey, but I think I also... Where my story is really rooted and what I do talk a lot about on Drinking with Jen is narcissist abuse recovery.

56:31
And when I really came to understand my relationship with my mother and my brother, it really made me recognize and understand that I allowed Chad into my life because I was familiar with those behaviors. And there's comfort and familiarity even if it's not good. So I've had to do a lot of work on shedding my false armor. I think people...

56:59
that knew me five years ago and before would have said, Ginny's really tough. I think people would have described me as aloof, stoic. Not I think they would have. People have described me those ways. And now it's warm, vulnerable, open, approachable. Strangers tell me their stories and cry. I mean, it's a very different feel. And

57:28
The other thing is his kids are still, were still a big part of each other's lives. And I really think that I was brought into their lives because I was a child that received unconditional love from only one parent. And every kid deserves unconditional love from two parents. And I think that's a big part of the reason why I was brought into their lives, so that they have two parental figures. Their mother is incredible.

57:57
Like the four of us we had dinner last week and it was because we were we had to reschedule but we rescheduled because the kids wanted to see me and like the fact that they still want to see me and and you know have me in their lives and I'm very conscientious now about the things that I say to them too, right because like Perfectionism is it can be not always but it really can be a result of having a narcissistic parent

58:24
because nothing you ever do is good enough for them and you're always trying to get their approval and their attention. And so I definitely can relate to that. That's why I said I kind of wanted to circle back to that. But we do spring break together. Their mom and the two of them, so the four of us, like we call it our little modern family. And it's really been a blessing. That's been one of the best parts of the story. And you know, it worked out, that part worked out exactly how it was supposed to. But I feel like I digressed a little bit there. That's okay.

58:52
I mean, it's your story. I get stuck on thinking about that little girl who was a big girl, right? And she was able to take care of herself. And the early part of your story really just explained that, and the successes you were having, and the great trips you were going on, and the life you were leading, everything out there. Look, I can do it. I can do it, guys. Mom, look, I'm OK.

59:21
And I think of so many people can relate to that. I think not just from a parent perspective, but I think there's a societal perspective on that, that we are conditioned to do those kind of things. But you know what? In my life, with the tragedies that I've faced, I look back on it and I say, I would not be this version of me had I not experienced all that.

59:49
And I know you're like, that's the good part of this whole experience, but I think there's more good pieces from this not so great experience because of what you're doing and the lives that you're changing because of it. Your book and the community that's just bringing up because of you having, or being brave to just put your story out there. Because who knows what it would have done, right? I mean, you never know, but there is a sense of

01:00:18
of being brave to put a book out there of your personal story. And there's a vulnerability that I think a lot of people don't have and not ready to do it. So you are changing the world as a byproduct of a really shitty experience that you had to go through. Would you agree or am I way off base? Thank you. And yes, I absolutely do agree. And I think that this is my purpose.

01:00:43
and I wouldn't be here if I didn't go through this. And one of the things I say all the time is, when you go through something really traumatic for you, change is inevitable. And some people change and they might get a chip on their shoulder, they might shut down or they might, you know, there's a lot of different ways that you can change. But transformation is by conscious choice. And I really transformed and it's...

01:01:09
Post-traumatic growth is a real thing. I talk a lot about it. I've had experts, psychologists come on and talk about post-traumatic growth. And really the definition of that is finding new meaning or a new way of life from what you went through. And I mean, that's really the definition of what I did. I mean, I found a new meaning, a new way. I had to change my own community. I had to make some changes.

01:01:36
When I did, it wasn't a lot, it was just a few people. But when I did that, what started to happen was my existing healthy relationships started to flourish. And then I opened up space for welcoming in new, warm, healthy, wonderful relationships with people that are genuine and generous and all of those good descriptive things. And then being able to do this as my work now, I mean, it's really, really incredible. I bet.

01:02:05
You couldn't have imagined that, you know, returning from Italy and being like, what, she's going to write a book and she's going to go around speaking and have a podcast? No way. No. Yeah. What do you think that version of you would think of seeing you now? Oh, I would hope that version of me would be proud. But honestly, I mean, I because I had been, you know, I had been a person that had been.

01:02:30
abused by narcissists for my whole life, I had developed really unhealthy coping mechanisms. And you do become a little bit of the product of, or the byproduct of your environment. And so like, things were really important to me, like materialistic things. And I think it's really fascinating and no wonder why I picked the aesthetics industry. I think it's interesting. And not that there's, you know.

01:02:57
And I'm grateful for that too, right? Like that was a great part of my life too. But just my priorities have changed. Now it's so much more about experiences. I would say, yeah, relationships. And I think one of the big shifts that's changed for me too is actually getting to know myself, right? Like part of what I coach is self discovery and self love. And you have to have that and actually really like yourself.

01:03:26
or you can't expect anybody else to like you either. That's the hardest part too. I think self-discovery and self-awareness and all those things, I think that's the hardest part of most people's journey, whether that's post-trauma, whether that's just you had a seemingly perfect life and you still don't understand who you are. I think that's the hardest part. People have a really hard time with being honest with themselves. It's like, I don't know why. And I think too, for someone like Chad,

01:03:55
He can't be alone with himself. And I'm like, well, if I was him, I wouldn't want to be alone with myself either. But meditation and sitting with yourself and really getting to know you, and that's one of the things that I really encourage the kids, right? Like they call me their bonus mama, which was coined by their mom, which I love. My favorite text message on my birthday this year was from one of them that just said, happy birthday, be mama. And I was like, ugh. So I call them my bonus kids and whatever. So.

01:04:22
Like one of the things that's really important when I was with them just last week is.

01:04:29
when they try new things. So I think that's one of the things too that's really ingrained in people that have had narcissistic abuse in their life is not trying new things, afraid of failing really. And that's one of the things I see in them is they won't try new things because they only wanna do things that they're the best at. And one of them went out for a new sport this year.

01:04:54
And so I was asking all kinds of questions, like, do you like it? Are you enjoying it? And then they started talking about how they took it, you know, took it up really quickly and they're really good and they got really good, really fast, maybe the best, you know, got the best, the fastest they ever got. And I was like, but are you having fun? Are you enjoying yourself? Right, I think.

01:05:16
we lose the sense of curiosity, which I think is so critically important, to learn what we like, what we don't like, you know, and have fun. And I think that's a really important component of life and growing. Your story is so fascinating. I love to wrap these up with a question. And I'm wondering if this version of you could sit down next to the Ginny sitting on the edge of the bed, on hold with that hotel waiting for that receipt, if there's anything that you could say to her.

01:05:45
that would help her on this journey. Hmm.

01:05:51
That's a really good question. I would love to be able to put some thought into answering that. Well, too bad. You have no time. Yeah, I would say, I mean, really, it's kind of the coaching program that I developed, and it's called GenPath. And so the first step is gathering. It's gathering information, insight, perspective about your community, about your situation, about yourself.

01:06:20
I would maybe say be intentional. The I is for intentions. Intentionality is really, really important. And take care of yourself. Nurture yourself and take that time.

01:06:32
I feel like I'd want to give her a hug. Yeah, yeah, she needed a lot of hugs. It's just like, there's nothing you could do to change her path, right? I feel like we all will make these decisions, but it's interesting to think back of that version of you and go, I can't imagine being that person again or feeling that particular way because of where I am. And so I think your story is so impactful. One, because...

01:07:00
you're not the only person that will ever experience this, unfortunately. But two, like you said, with what your book is doing, with what your podcast does, with what your speaking engagements do, you're providing a validation to people that their experiences are, I don't wanna say normal, but they are, they're valid. And what they're experiencing is experienced by other people and they don't feel alone in the world. So I appreciate you sharing your story with

01:07:30
my audience and just being a part of the Lifeshift Podcast. It's wonderful to get to know you in this way, even though your story has a lot of dark parts to it, but it ends in a light. It really does, yeah. And I think one of the things that I've come to learn and I tell myself this all of the time when I get maybe no's at work is it's not no, it's no, there's something better.

01:07:55
there's something better for you. And sometimes it's hard to know that in that moment of disappointment or feeling upset or let down. But if something's not for you, there's something better. Yeah, I agree. Well, what's the best place that people can go and find out about you, about your show, about your book, and all the ways to get connected with you and be a part of your world and community? Or if someone's listening and they know Chad.

01:08:22
that they can get in hold of you. I love it. So my website is mynamejennipreme.com. I hang out on Instagram the most for social media. My website is where you can find more about my speaking engagements. Podcast Drinking with Jen is available on all the major platforms, Apple, Spotify. And then the book, Amazon, is the easiest place. Quick shipping. Well, we'll link to all those places in the show notes. So if you're listening and you're interested and you want to connect, or you want to check out the book, or speaking engagements, or whatever there is,

01:08:52
please do so because that's her livelihood and it would be wonderful for them to connect with you. For those of you listening, if you're enjoying the LifeShift podcast or you check out Drinking with Gin, please listen to your favorite episode and then share it with a friend. I think I'm gonna ask for that this time because I think that might help even more share these stories, help people feel validated. And once again, thank you, Ginny, for just being a part of this. Thank you for having me.

01:09:32
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com