Empowering Change: From Rebel to Activist Leader | Nisha Anand

00:00

And so I practiced for several weeks with five other activists. They were having a meet and greet in the center ring of the Ringling Brothers Circus. And before the show started, you would go to the center ring and meet the clowns or the animals or I'm not even sure what. And we practiced. We went in there. This was before metal detectors. We had bike locks, U-locks around our neck, buttoned up under our clothes. And we practiced how to get to the center ring and lock ourselves together by the neck in the middle of the ring.

00:30

so that we were stuck there, a little octopus of us locked by the neck in the center ring of the circus. And I'm lying there before the show starts. And from what I remember, each one of the activists was much older than me. They had been doing this for a while. But I'm sitting there, and I start seeing the crowds pour in, and they get to their seat. People are confused. They don't know what's happening here at the center ring. And I remember the thought entering my head.

01:00

of this isn't right. Welcome to another episode of the Life Shift Podcast. This is the place where we explore the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. I'm your host and today we have a guest who embodies the spirit of rebellion, empathy, and strategic activism that can lead to profound shifts in our lives and societies. My guest today is Nisha Anand and she is the CEO of dream.org.

01:28

and Nisha plays a pivotal role in addressing social justice issues like criminal justice reform and tech equity. Her journey to this position is super interesting. It's marked by a rebellious spirit and a yearning for justice, and if you've listened to some episodes, you know that I cannot relate to that. But these are traits that she's had since her early days as a young punk rock loving activist. She was born to immigrant parents in Atlanta, Georgia, and Nisha grew up feeling kind of like a misfit, a bridge between these two worlds.

01:57

But instead of letting this alienate her, she used it kind of like a superpower. This sense of rebellion actually led her to become an activist, and she participated in protests and organizing movements, but one key moment in her journey shifted her perspective on activism profoundly, and it led her to the path that she's on today. But that one moment didn't stop her. Her rebellious spirit led her to confront the military dictatorship in Burma, an experience that added a whole...

02:26

other layer to her understanding of empathy and strategic activism. In today's episode, we'll dive into Nisha's journey, exploring her transformation from a rebel to a strategic activist and how her experiences shaped her understanding of social justice. Before we jump into the episode, I want to thank three people for supporting one episode a week. So this week, I want to thank Nic, Gale and Sari for supporting the show through the Patreon.

02:53

I have all sorts of tiers on the Patreon. There are tiers as small as $3 a month. There are tiers all the way up to supporting two episodes a month. And all of that is just helping me as an indie podcaster build the show, do marketing, add new tools, continue having these wonderful conversations. So if you would like to directly support the show, please head over to patreon.com/thelifeshiftpodcast.

03:19

and you'll see all the information about the tiers. We're getting close to the next t-shirt giveaway. So if you become a Patreon member, you're automatically entered into every t-shirt giveaway. So with that, I would like to introduce you to my new friend, Nisha Anand. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:55

Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with a brand new connection, Nisha. Hey, Nisha. Hello. I'm glad to be here. Let's talk. Yeah, let's do it. So with the Life Shift Podcast, I really, I mean, I truly started this because when my mom died when I was a kid, I felt like I was the only kid who had a dead parent. And I was the only kid going through that. I think I knew logically that I wasn't, but it felt very isolating. And so my goal with all these episodes is that

04:23

people like you come on and share your story, whatever that may be, whether that's tragedy, triumph, a little bit of both, whether that's, you know, just some kind of internal fire. These stories, I hope that someone out there listening is having, you know, like something sparks in them or resonates with them and makes them feel a little less alone in their experience. And it's like an amazing thing that I didn't know I was gonna get from having a podcast. I think when you assume podcasts, you think,

04:53

just going to get on the microphone and talk. But I didn't realize that having conversations like this would be so healing for like that little eight-year-old in me. So just thank you for being a part of this entire journey of mine. I couldn't have guessed it. And I think I needed to take the entire road that it took to get here, all 42 years of those, to make it to this point and find it. So we were connected through a friend of mine, actually a former guest of the show, Michelle. And she told her story of her

05:23

She had a health issue that was sudden and totally unexpected and life-threatening at that, and all the things that she learned from it. And she was like, I have someone else for you that you should talk to. And so can you kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this moment? But before you do that, maybe tell us just who you are and kind of what you do just to give us a little context, but not too much, not too many clues.

05:51

So I'm Nisha Anand. I'm the CEO at dream.org. And we're a national social justice nonprofit working on criminal justice and climate and tech equity. And for me, growing up, I was always that person that cared about justice. So young Nisha was very active in the community. I think there were two parts of me growing up. There was Nisha, who was the immigrant, first generation of immigrants, child growing up.

06:19

in Atlanta, Georgia. So I grew up in the South, immigrant parents in the 80s. And my father really was, he came here for the American dream. And in a lot of ways, I like to say I was his American dream, this hope of a future that's better than its past. But because I grew up in Atlanta, which was very much black and white South, having immigrant parents, I grew up a total misfit. I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere. There was a lot of those questions. Who are, what are you?

06:47

That was a really big one. And people wanted to know. It took me a while to realize. They wanted to put me in a category. Are you black or are you white? Because that's what it was in Atlanta in the South. And so there was a bit of me never fitting in. And that part, that misfit piece, has always been with me. And I think as a misfit, you could either go with, I don't fit in anywhere. Therefore, I'm withdrawing. Or you could do what I did, which embraced it and said, actually, I can fit in everywhere. Being a misfit is my superpower.

07:17

Being that bridge between the old world and India and the new world, being a literal translator sometimes for my family, I was that bridge between two worlds. So I grew up with both feeling outside and feeling a part of everything. So certainly, there's always been this bit of me being really into this idea of being able to bridge a lot of different worlds and a lot of different divides. But I also knew that my expectation growing up

07:42

was to grow up to marry well. It's very much a very strong Indian value. Marry well in your class, above your class. We're here in America. You're supposed to be successful. But for me, success would be marrying well. My brother, definitely, he was the one pushed to be the high achiever, career-oriented one. But I was always a little bit of a rebel. So pre this moment was rebel. I was such a rebel.

08:10

I was any cause you could think of, I tied myself to. One of my first organizing experiences, I got all the girls at my Catholic school to stop shaving their legs because some boy complained that I didn't shave my legs because I was a young feminist. And I got in trouble, in trouble, which is bizarre. And so I had to organize a lot of people to say, no, you can take that patriarchy and put it somewhere else. So I was very much a rebel for any cause. Was that always like when you were...

08:38

like even really small, you were always kind of feeling like you had to fill the gap, you had to break, I mean, you said that, but like even from a tiny age, is that something that was instilled into you? Absolutely. If I was going to break the mold, I think I knew I had to really break it. I remember telling my mom when she wanted me to do the dishes, I said, I don't need to do the dishes. I'm going to have a house husband to do the dishes. This is a story they tell me when I was young.

09:07

that I had this idea that if I was going to break it, I was going to break it hard. And my son, he's now in college, but he's a contrarian. And so I see it in him a little bit, this need to question and push and not take an answer. No matter how much it fits our lifestyle, my son could always push and say, but wait, let me question that. That's good. So I think it was always with me. And I knew if I was not going to be this perfect Indian daughter, I was going to have to really.

09:36

make a claim and be something else. So I was a young punk rock kid. My whole growing up was punk rock shows in the 80s and 90s and definitely dressing not what my parents expected. There was a lot of this rebellious, but I found my specific brand of rebelliousness, yes, in punk rock, but also in being an activist. I was a protester. I organized things. I got arrested.

10:03

over a dozen times for different causes, this was who I was. And when I got to college, college activism is pretty exciting. And so that kind of brings me to the moment I was gonna share with you. Just go right into it. Well, before you do, I just think it's fascinating because I don't, I wish that a lot of people could relate to that. I think so many of us are very conditioned in some way and just like fascinated by the fact that

10:32

even as a very young child, you had this, wait a second, the rules, why are these the rules? You know, like, who made these rules and why do they exist? Whereas, and I talked to a lot of people on this podcast about what I felt growing up in the 80s was very much like a societal checklist. And I had to, I had to stay in that hallway. And I had to, you know,

11:01

go to the next door because that was next on the list to do. And so my brain right now is like, I can't imagine what my life would have been like had I pushed even just once the limit at all. So that's, I mean, it's so fascinating and I like kudos to you or your parents or whatever instilled that in you or the opposite of your parents. Or do you know if there was anyone in your life that kind of you saw that you were kind of emulating?

11:30

I think it might be a magic that all first generation kids have a little bit, is there is this immense amount of pressure and expectation of we came to this country for you. There is a huge burden you carry of having to be your parents' dreams. And you also are constantly seeing how the worlds are so different. I know what my life would have looked like in India. I have a cousin the same age who grew up there. And I can see what her life is like.

11:59

I know what that was. I also can see these examples in America that were so different. So growing up, there was always some dissonance that was just in front of me. There's always this contradiction between the rules and the expectations and knowing that there's a whole world of people who live with completely different rules. You know, and where we're from in India, almost everyone's vegetarian. Well, I grew up in the US, and no one was vegetarian in Atlanta growing up then. So just. Especially in the 80s.

12:26

Of course. And so you know that there's different rules for different people just by being this mix of cultures. That is fascinating. Yeah, I mean it is interesting to to think about too because here I am a white guy privilege from, you know, the Boston area. I moved down to Marietta near Atlanta when I was eight after my mom died and for me, which is this is going to sound really ridiculous to say to someone that

12:54

comes from another country or at least understands the difference. But that was like a whole new world for me as well, going from Boston. Marietta was a really whole new world back then. It really was a different place. You know, I could come in with this Boston accent and just like have these expectations that life is the same everywhere. Because up in New England in the 80s, everything was the same. You know, like there was no diversity, essentially. And then you come down to Atlanta, and it was very much, it was a very different world. But also I think that.

13:24

and probably a victim of my circumstance, but that part scared me in the sense that, like, oh, I have to stay in line because everything is so different. But it's also probably because, you know, my mom had just died and there was that complication in it. So it's really interesting to hear you say that though, because you understand the quote unquote old world or the world that your family came from, there is a set standard and...

13:51

The world is your oyster here in the United States and you have these options. So it's really, I love it. I wish everyone had that mentality and ability. Well, they have the ability, but the mentality to do that. And I shouldn't say it's all that. I still have very much a daddy's girl and want to make him happy and proud. That is still a big piece of me too. That didn't die either.

14:14

But I think that's a gift. I think it's a real gift to know that all of us contain multitudes. We're not one thing or the other. Did you feel like you had to convince your parents, like, this could still be OK if I go this route as well? Or was it all just like, wait and see? Well, my father loves to debate. He loves to talk politics. And that's also very cultural. I grew up with, after a meal,

14:43

with a lot of people, big Indian dinner, all of the men would sit around and talk politics and argue all night. So we have very argumentative culture. And so I was captain of the debate team as well in high school. Debate was a big piece of my life. So being able to get in these arguments with my dad and show him that I thought differently, that was always exciting for him. I remember his line, like one day, Nish, you'll also want to join a country club and be just like me. There's definitely this idea that one day I'd

15:12

come to my senses. He used to say things like, I used to be a socialist too. And then I grew up and I was just like, one, he doesn't get me and two, I don't think I'm gonna ever join a country club. And I can tell you now, 47 years on this earth, I have not joined a country club yet. There's still a chance. But there's still a chance. My daughter would like that. She's definitely the fancier of our children, but no, I have never been drawn to joining a country club. So there was a bit of, my dad did accept. I mean, he came to America,

15:42

fully wanting that American experience, he grabbed onto the assimilation for sure. He was very proud to do that. And so part of it was him learning to embrace whatever was going to happen with me. And you were like, well, guess what? I'm going to do this and then get arrested. How did that? Yeah. That definitely he wasn't prepared for. He was not prepared for when I was arrested inside the military dictatorship of Burma.

16:11

and Myanmar in 98 when it made headline news and the news trucks were camped outside of his house. This was 1998, so I have a lot of it on VHS tape still, and I could see his reaction. So I actually have video evidence of how he took my departure from the norm with tears in his eyes saying, you know, please just bring my baby home. It was heartbreaking. So he did have to learn kind of.

16:39

the hard way that there was no coming back. And was, I mean, did we jump, did I jump the gun? Is that, was that your moment or? No, it actually comes after the moment, believe it or not, but we can jump right into that too. Yeah, totally. For sure. Because that seems like it would be a moment for a lot of people as well. Yeah, it definitely feeds into who I am today. I don't think you can get arrested in a military dictatorship, be sentenced to five years of hard labor and it not change your life.

17:10

But I was actually going to point to a moment before that, if you want to hear it. Yeah, let's do it. So I was in college, and like I said, I was an activist for any cause. And I was really into animal rights at that moment in my college life. And so there was an active group on campus that was going to do a protest at the circus to protest animal abuse. And so I practiced for several weeks with five other activists. They were having a meet and greet in the center ring of the Ringling Brothers Circus.

17:39

And before the show started, you would go to the center ring and meet the clowns or the animals, or I'm not even sure what. And we practiced. We went in there. This was before metal detectors. We had bike locks, U-locks around our neck, buttoned up under our clothes. And we practiced how to get to the center ring and lock ourselves together by the neck in the middle of the ring so that we were stuck there, a little octopus of us locked by the neck in the center ring of the circus.

18:09

And I'm lying there before the show starts. And from what I remember, each one of the activists was much older than me. They had been doing this for a while. But I'm sitting there and I start seeing the crowds pour in and they get to their seat. People are confused. They don't know what's happening here at the center ring. And I remember the thought entering my head of this isn't right.

18:34

What have I done? There are some kids here in DC. I went to college in Washington, DC, who maybe had been looking forward to this for months. And they're arriving here with their parents. They don't know anything, anything about animal abuse. All they know is they can't see the show. They wanted to tonight. And I felt really bad. And I verbalized it. And I said, you guys, we've ruined these kids tonight. And they talked me.

19:02

They talked me through it. No, this is the right thing. This is the whatever. And I got there, and I stood strong. But that stuck with me. So it was in my heart. And I don't know. I don't think I was a very empathetic child, necessarily. If we're really being honest, I think I always was very performative empathetic. That might be one of the moments in which I realized that I could see.

19:29

all of the other sides. It might be when I started understanding a little bit about bridge building. But what ended up happening is a big forklift came into the center ring. They lifted us all up at once, put us on a flat bag truck, drove us to the back, and then the jaws of life from the fire truck came out and cut us out of these things. So we didn't stop the show. Everyone got to see the circus. I have no idea what the protest accomplished. And that set me on a place. I did not acknowledge it then.

19:58

But I really started questioning, what tactics do we use when? Is this really the right way to change people's hearts and minds? And what about considering the people we are impacting? Have I considered them enough? And I became a student of Gandhian nonviolence and civil disobedience. I actually got my master's degree and the degree is called International Peace and Conflict Resolution, where I studied more about how do movements start, how do they resolve.

20:27

How do you negotiate in the toughest times? It really sent me on a path of wanting to be not just morally right, but also very strategic and deeply empathetic. And so that was a big turning point for me. And I didn't realize it until I looked back on all the moments afterwards, including being arrested in Myanmar, which must've been maybe two years after that, which was also obviously quite a big turning point. So you were still like continuing on,

20:57

that almost like a seed was planted at that moment in which it was like starting to like bloom and spread? Absolutely. I became a student and I could look back on all the movements of history. Cause one thing I always wanted was the world to be a more just and fair and equal place. I've always wanted to be a voice for those left out and left behind because there was that misfit side, right? When I was young, there was this misfit piece and I didn't want anyone else to feel that way. I can recognize that thread throughout my life.

21:26

But I think what I started to realize right then is it's not enough to want it, and it's not enough to talk about it, and it's not enough to be moral and right about it. You have to be strategic. You have to also think what's really going to change the world. And one of the things I learned is that if you change the world by force, it will change back just as dramatically. And if you try to change the world by force,

21:54

change the world with righteousness, it will never change. So there had to be some deep reflection and some deep strategy to think about. And when the opportunity came, again, I was a college activist, this was 98, so I had just graduated, but the really active group on campus was the Free Burma Coalition. And they were doing a trip to Thailand just to be on the Thai-Burma border and learn about the horrible conditions in the military dictatorship. And I said, sign me up, and I went.

22:24

And that was just an education tour at first until we met a woman over there who was planning an action. And the action was really well planned. I had studied enough at this point. I felt pretty solid that it was a good action. It felt very strategic. And in fact, I can see the impact. It was a pretty big impact. But it was still, I look back on it now, and I'm filled with a lot of fear.

22:52

anything could have happened. But back then, I mean, that's the fearlessness of youth. That was on my side. So even though it was a strategic action and very well planned, it was dangerous. But I thought it was worth it then. And it was 1998. So it was 10 years after 88, which was when there was a large massacre on 8-8-88, August 8th of 1988. The Burmese students rose up for democracy and democratic rights. It was after an election that got put down by the military junta.

23:21

And the military ended up killing about 10,000 people on 8.88. And if you weren't killed, you fled to the border areas, went in exile, or you were imprisoned. And so to mark the 10-year anniversary, this woman, Debbie Stotherd, in Thailand gathered 18 activists from all around the world, Indonesia, Thailand, Australia, a few other countries, and the US.

23:45

And we all went in to hand out small leaflets on the anniversary. And it was a business card-sized leaflet that said, we are your friends from around the world. We support your hopes for human rights and democracy. That's all it said. But to have a leaflet like that inside a military dictatorship was highly illegal. So we had to sneak it in in the soles of our shoes. We put it in the linings of our suitcases. We snuck it in, and we handed it out. And we only handed out for five minutes on that morning. And we were all to then.

24:14

We were in groups of three. Get in the car, get to the airport, and get out of the country. And if we didn't arrive home, Debbie had all of the diplomats on speed dial. She had all of our parents on speed dial. She knew exactly who to call when. Well, none of us made it back. I thought maybe it was just the three of us that got arrested. But by the end of the week in jail, I knew all 18 of us had gotten arrested. So we became an international news story overnight. That's also why it was a well-planned action.

24:44

Burma has no allies. They're known as human rights abusers at that point. And so it wasn't a hard story to bring up to this horrible human rights. She did everything right. It did become. This was during the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, which I know you remember. So there were a few times when even this American activist detained in Burma was above the fold, believe it or not, from those moments. And that actually did catapult my career. I ended up having to travel all around the world

25:14

the Hague, UN, other places around the human rights abuses in Myanmar, that certainly catapulted to my career. But I don't think I would have thought about the strategy of how do you really make change? How do you really move the world forward had it not been for that just small moment at the circus? That, I mean, that circus moment. I mean, the other part, I just, again, if we go back to our earlier conversation of the mat journey of like the checklist can't even

25:44

remotely imagine doing that out of fear. I mean, mostly fear. I would imagine that a lot of people have, like, can we do that? Like, that's scary. If you know you have to hide things and strategically place, you know, like, even your collar or even, you know, put the leaflets in your shoes. To me, that's my red flag. Like, I run and as much as I care about these things, I think I'm more scared than anything else and it's interesting.

26:13

to think about that moment at the circus and how, I guess my question really stems from that moment, you thinking, oh, there are other people that are gonna be affected by this. Were the other activist moments before that, was that like at any cost? Like we're gonna do this at any cost, kind of whatever it takes kind of thing. And then, so at this point, you're just like, oh no, these little kids, they don't understand, we just ruined their night.

26:43

We just spoiled the movie. Like, it's the sixth sense, and we just told them the end. Kind of thing. You're exactly right. I think before, I thought that if I knew I was right, if the morals I felt were on my side, then nobody else mattered. There is this colonial mentality where you think if everyone just knew what I knew, they would change. But that's not right.

27:09

that's not actually how the world works. And that was a really big lesson for me, is I think the way I think because of all the circumstances that led me to what I think. Other people can think, we can come to the same, we can have the same goals, right? Like we want our families to be safe. For instance, I want my family to be safe. I know that my Republican neighbor has that exact same goal as me. Now, how do we make sure our family is safe? We might have very different reasons, or very different things that we want to do.

27:40

That's a conversation to have. It doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong. We reach the same conclusion. Just all of the things I care about, what my life experience led me up to will give me a different set of ideas than they have. And that's what I really learned is that I'm not right and they're not wrong. We really have to start understanding each other to make a real difference. We have to make a place at the, I like to build the building.

28:08

I'm a social justice advocate.

28:34

And you are allowed to be there for a completely different reason than me. That's what makes democracy work. That's what made me work. Right. Growing up in Atlanta, I was that misfit. I had a different story. I needed a place where I could be me. And that's what we're creating here at dream.org. So I show up at the table. I don't hide who I am. I couldn't even if I tried, right. It just comes out of me and I want everyone else to be able to do that too. Right. And you're not appeasing people by.

29:04

doing that either. You're kind of, you're engaging, I guess, is probably a better word than, oh, I'll listen, but we're going to do something else. But you know, the visual of your, for lack of better words, circus moment, it feels very much like the group that you were with and you going in there, and certainly correct me if this feeling is wrong, but going in there is like, we're going to show Ringling Brothers or Barnum and Bailey.

29:33

who's wrong, we're damned that man. Yes. But then everyone else showed up and you're like, it's not just about them. It's not just about me. We have to, you know, the man in the arena kind of thing, like we all need to be that man in the arena and understand that our lives brought us to these particular points and you were hurting.

29:59

lack of a better word, hurting innocent kids, right? Like in a sense, their tarnished memories. And if I just think now a few steps beyond, had we been successful, had we shut down the circus for the night, we might have created 1,000 people who hate animal rights activists for the rest of their life. And then what? And gained two. Right? If that. But we might have actually done worse.

30:29

And I think about that right now so much, because oftentimes in these polarized times, we have conversations with folks who are like, I can't ever be friends with someone who voted for Trump. I can't ever do it. They're so wrong. They are voting for something that's anti who I am. And I understand that sentiment, absolutely. I understand that a lot of people who support him are anti-gay. I understand that there are people I remember the Muslim

30:59

I understand why people feel that way. But when I hear that idea, I cannot possibly work with them. I think about this a lot. When you say that, when you say because of something you did, you're wrong forever and ever, now join me and join my movement, it doesn't work. You're racist. Join me. Did you know how messed up you are because you voted this way? Join my cause. That doesn't work. It's not a good strategy.

31:28

at all, instead understanding why people are there. People make value judgments all the time. We have to. When we're for the environment, but we take an airplane, we understood, well, here's the line that we're saying. We're going to pollute now because it's better at this moment. We make those judgments all the time. We have to give room for other people. They voted for Trump for whatever reason they voted for. Find out why, don't just write them off.

31:56

people make these trade-offs. You had a lot of people who were like, yeah, how he talks about women is disgusting and distasteful and it's horrible. But I voted for him for this. Well, I think it's, I think it's important conversation as well to know that in these polarizing times or in an activist type mentality, maybe we don't know if we're the activists, maybe we don't have all the information, maybe we don't have the best plan.

32:24

And if we incorporate all the involved shareholders and people that are involved that are related to this and we all actually listen with empathy and compassion, maybe we can find a solution that works for the group, like all of us. In which, and a lot of times I think we think of this, we say this word compromise, but maybe it's just, it's not really compromise. It's more like, let's all respect each other.

32:53

and understand that we're coming at this world, thinking of that octopus kind of thing. We're all coming at from different lanes, but we do want to meet in the middle. Yeah. Well, you sound like you belong at dream.org, Matt. I mean, that's exactly what we do. Are you hiring? Right? You're now one of us. Do you need a podcast? That's exactly what we do. We probably should have a podcast. That's exactly what we do. Like right now, you are looking at a hurricane about to hit Orlando.

33:22

So if you were to write a climate policy, if I came to you with all of this money coming from the IRA that was just passed and the government, there's $369 billion being allocated to fight climate change. So you, where you are, are going to have a very specific set of solutions. And you probably know some of your neighbors who you've heard good ideas from. And so if you were designing a climate policy in Orlando, it's going to, if you said it needs this, this, and this, I have to believe you.

33:50

But if I was writing the policy, I'd be talking about electric vehicles and fires and drought, because I live in California. That's what I know. We would write very different policies. And then if you take a farmer from the middle of the country who's also on the front lines of climate change, all of us are on the front lines of climate change. We are going to have very different solutions. Orlando, Iowa, California, we really have to listen to each other if we're actually going to do it. And we all might have very different political backgrounds.

34:19

We might have very different views on any number of issues. But if we can't hear each other on climate, we're going to design a solution meant for California, try to put it in Florida. It's not going to work. Yeah, I think it's really hard. I think especially people of our generation, people that grew up in the 70s, 80s, even the 90s, I feel like things that were pushed to us for those of us that didn't try to regularly buck the system and do the things that you did.

34:49

to fight for justice, I think we were very much pushed that we have to be the best. We have to win. And so that trickles, you know, and as we get older, it just kind of like sits there for a lot of us. And it's hard. And I think that's why there's so much headbutting is because I have to be right. But why? I don't know why we're, I mean, I guess I do because we were fed that, or many of us were fed that we have to be the best. Or...

35:18

We absorb that. In my instance, and this is really shrinking this concept down to making it sound like nothing, but when my mom died, before my mom died, I was smart, but I didn't care about school. Like, it was just like, give me a C, pass me through, whatever, I'll do well on the tests, I don't care about the homework. And as soon as she died, I became an A plus student, I had to be the best in the class, I had to do all these things. And a lot of it was,

35:47

me absorbing the things around me, because everyone was worried that I was going to fall apart and not be great. That as a kid, you absorb that, and then you have to perform at the highest. But when you do that over decades of time, because you're still operating on a tiny brain, like an eight-year-old brain, it becomes really harmful. It becomes the situations that you talk about with like, you know, you want to be safe, and your neighbor wants to be safe, but your neighbor wants 400.

36:15

assault rifles and you just want a security system on your door, both of you can maybe think of some ideas that would protect both of you that aren't so extreme, whatever that may be, bars, windows, whatever that is. And so I think it's hard to, or maybe you have an idea of how you do this strategically with people that are very, very ingrained because they've always been taught that they have to be right. And if they're wrong, it's a weakness. How do you do that?

36:45

How do you bring a coal miner to the table when you're talking about climate change? Do you? How do you? Yeah, you have to. You absolutely have to. And we've actually been successful with that exact scenario. When you talk to somebody who is a coal miner and you ask, what's going on for you? What we learned, the campaign we got involved with was they were really worried about their health benefits running out. The government was gonna cut some of their pension.

37:14

in the future for folks who were losing their jobs because we are switching to a green economy, you can't switch to a clean green economy without thinking what are we going to do for the people who've earned a living in the coal economy. You have to include them in the solution. And so us saying we'll fight alongside you to secure your pensions and make sure those don't get cut was a really important piece of the green puzzle. These are humans and

37:43

As much as I cared about animals in my early life, and as much as I think about the future world I want to create, for me, humans are the important piece of the puzzle, no matter where you are, who you come from, what you look like. Like I said, I don't want anyone to be left out and left behind. And if I take the words of those who've been traditionally marginalized and I place a greater importance on their voice and not the folks who are newly marginalized, I'm just recreating the same system.

38:12

So for us at dream.org, we always want to have equity at the center of what we do. You can count on us. We get to a table with all of our Republican partners, and we have quite a few. They can count on us to bring our progressive voice. They can count on us to always have equity in the top of our mind. And they also can count on us to be radically inclusive, that we are going to include their voices even if they don't. Because what they know is that equity

38:41

is a blind spot for a lot of our Republican partners. It's not because they hate people of color, for the most part. It's not because they are racist. That's actually not true. It's simply that it's not the first thing that comes to their mind when they're designing solutions. But it's always going to be the first thing that comes to my mind because who I am. Doesn't mean I'm right about it. It's just what I see first. What I learned is that our Republican partners will think about things like individual rights.

39:09

They'll think about somebody's personal path to success. And that's never the first thing I think of. It's important to me. I want everyone to have opportunity to success. But that's not necessarily the first thing I think of. That's my blind spot. So we can balance each other out. When you first realize it's not that they're right or wrong, we're coming to this table. We have different ideas because of our circumstances. What you were telling me, it's important to know that you growing up.

39:36

determined to be that straight-A student so you could show everyone you were fine, that was critically important to your survival and getting by and getting to where you are. Everybody has that, and it's useful even into adulthood, and sometimes it's very not useful and detrimental. And all of us have that. We have to be able to allow each other to take those shields off and put them back on when it's useful. So I want that respect for me at the table.

40:05

Tell me why you care about this from a racial justice angle. Great. Now let me tell you why I care about it from this angle. And I'll make that space first. I think anyone who really cares about ending polarization or anyone who wants to have a more productive conversation, you have to take it on first to hear other folks. Then they'll hear you back. And that's part of the beauty of humanity, if you will. Do you find that people that have been marginalized are more willing to work?

40:34

together even if their ideas are polarizing with you.

40:39

or othered or? That's a great question. That's a really great question. I think that we have across the board, left, right, and in between, very low interest in hearing each other. They're bridge builders everywhere. Most people, when you take a poll, will say they want to come together, they're sick of the polarization. They just think no one else is.

41:08

So the loudest parts, and this is both on the right and the left, the loudest parts of every coalition are the ones who do not want to make any kind of bridge to the other side. But I think that is the minority of people in the United States. I mean, poll after poll shows that. I think it's 80% in a poll that starts with us. I'll have to get the right information for you. I've never been asked to answer a poll. Right? Who are these pollsters?

41:39

I know. And then whenever I get a call to be part of a poll, I'm like, this has to be a scam. Right? Like who's calling me to be part of a poll? But if 80% of America wants to end the polarization, but they think that 80% of America does not want to end the polarization, we have a problem. So I don't know if it's a right or left problem. I just think anyone who's like I was is a young person who thinks I'm right and they're wrong. They have a hard time coming to the table and hearing differently.

42:08

I think it goes to also your statement earlier about performative, about how a lot of your empathy was performative. I think that's very true of a lot of people that have never, that's the reason I asked that question about people that have been marginalized, they understand what it feels like to not be heard. They understand what it feels like to not feel.

42:31

like they are looked at as 100% a person or belong or any of those pieces. And so in my mind, I would think that those of us that have been put in these buckets

42:45

because we understand it, we're willing to believe that other people have similar feelings. Yes, I think there's a yes and a no quality to that. There's this thing for me, Ibu Patel says this, he's with Interfaith USA and Interfaith Leadership Network. He's a phenomenal speaker, he's an excellent guest, but he says, it's not just the diversity you like.

43:11

And when he talks about that, there's a way on the left that we think about diversity and we understand our own marginalization and oppression, and we can extend that compassion to another group and widen our circle, and another group and widen our circle. It only is extending one way. There's a limit to that. There's only this circle, and it leaves out this other circle of people. And one of the things, if you are committed to diversity, it can't just be the diversity you like. You have to include all of the other.

43:41

diverse thinkers, whether it is around religion, whether it is around race and class and gender and urban and rural and whatever it is, you are going to miss something. We all have that blind spot if you don't think about all the different types. But I'm wondering if you've never been that if you've always won, if you're just always winning and you're always there's no nothing's fighting against you, you can afford everything, you can do whatever the hell you want. No one yells at you. There's nothing.

44:11

Why come to the table? Everything's going, you know, like, I don't know that a lot of people have those, I think that's why there are such lines in certain places or people stuck in the sand. They just, like, it doesn't affect me. So why would I help, you know? But then on the side of people that have actually had to fight for certain things, whether that's just to feel like they belong or to just live where they're not paycheck to paycheck or whatever that may be, you're like, well.

44:38

Yes, let's compromise. Let's find a way where I can be a little bit more like that person that doesn't even want to talk to me. And so that's kind of where that all came from. I think that's the hard part. On both sides, it's not party related. I think there are just people that can't think outside themselves, maybe. Yeah, I hear that. Like the selfishness and the me and the individualism. I hear that. I think there are two things in what you said. I think one,

45:05

Yeah, there is a bit of pain that feels like, why am I always the one that has to give? Why am I always the one that has to meet halfway? Why does it have to be me and my community that come to the table? Why can't other folks move more towards me? I think that's really true, and it's hard and it's painful. And I often tell people when I'm trying to tell them, everyone needs to help common ground. To me, being able to find common ground is the most important thing to saving our democracy. I will say it all the time. But you might not be specifically the person

45:35

that means to be seeking that common ground right now. We have been hurt. We are in pain. And sometimes it's not actually safe to put yourself in that place to find the common ground. So don't. It doesn't have to be the work for everybody. But there are places in your life you can find common ground. I think that's a big piece of it. And in that sense, I think you're totally right. It does feel like some people are always having to give and build and grow. I still encourage them to do so because I think it is the right modeling and right work. But the other piece of that.

46:04

And I think you hit on it at the end, the folks who've always won, what makes them want to come to the table. I think I've never met anyone who's always won. Everyone's got some type of story. Even the most successful, most privileged people will tell you about that hardship that got them there. That's why you have this podcast. Yeah. Because there is. Everyone has these crucible moments. And

46:33

Yes, there are some completely narcissistic, selfish people in the world, and they have an issue they need to work on. But I think for the most part, excellent people are everywhere. And we say this often. If we focus on the awful people, those super selfish narcissists, we're forgetting the awesome people. And the awesome people is the majority. I think the truly awful people in there everywhere are such a minority. The awesome people is who we should look at. And.

47:01

that they're in every sector, they're in every company, they're in every, the awesome people are really spread out everywhere. We just kind of shut down. We're like, well, if you work at evil corporation, you can't possibly be awesome. It's like, no, actually they're everywhere too. Well, it goes to your point. If you voted for XYZ, then you can't possibly be awesome, right? But we have a lot of layers. We are complex human beings for the most part. Most of us are. I'm sure there are some out there that aren't quite.

47:30

so complex, but I think I love what you guys are doing. I've had the pleasure so far of speaking with one of your employees and someone that works on your team or in your company, and the things that she was talking about, and how her life experiences, and the challenges, and the things that she wouldn't wish on anyone, that even she hated. She wouldn't have wished that on anyone.

47:58

But she had to experience that, how much those terrible experiences that happened to her and around her inform the amazing work that she's doing with your organization and how fulfilling it is to understand that she went through all that and now can actually help affect change. So, I mean, there's such value in what you guys are doing for the individual too. It's not just like this nationwide global, you know, like

48:28

change the world kind of thing, you're also changing the people within your own organization and allowing them to feel validated. So that's like a whole other layer of things that you're putting out into the world that I want to commend you for. Thank you. There's this hope for everyone that works with us that the future can be better than the past. And in fact, for everyone who works here, that's true. Every day, our life stories.

48:57

The future is better than the past. And we create the future. There's this determination that by the work that we do, we can create the future we want to see. And so that spirit of optimism and perseverance, it's here. We want to make sure not just the future of the country is better, but anyone coming home from prison, they come home better, not bitter, is something we say. So how do we make sure at every opportunity we're giving that chance?

49:26

best chance at the future we want to create, making sure that it's there. And it's why I can wake up every day and get excited about the work. Well, I mean, it was just, you know, talking to Amanda and her experiences and talking about how when you come out of prison, all the doors that are slammed in your face, even if you've made good.

49:54

if we want to call it that. Even if you've done everything that you were supposed to do and you have cleaned up and everything's impossible to do. And so the fact that your organization gave her this opportunity, it changed a life, which then trickles through the rest of the people that she encounters. And the world becomes a better place. It's fascinating that all of that can stem from an empathy awakening in a way that like,

50:23

We need to bring more people to these tables. We need to understand that it's more than just who's in this circle, you know, tied up to this particular center ring, but rather there's more stakeholders involved and, you know, that's just fascinating. How long between when this incident in, or this, I don't even want, it's worse than an incident, but what happened in Burma before you found your way to starting this organization?

50:52

So Burma was 1998. So if you can do the math for me, that was a long time ago that I was arrested in Burma. And one of the interesting things was that when we came home, we had a press conference, right, when we landed in Thailand, of course. And the person from the United States government who flew out there to be part of the press conference was Representative Chris Smith. He's still a congressperson. He is a Republican from New Jersey. And he flew.

51:22

as a Republican congressman to Burma to get us out of that jail. And when we were deported and had that press conference, I thought, remember, this is radical, I'm right, I know everything right about the world. I had like the short spiky hair and a bunch of piercings, which wasn't the best for a big news conference, but you can look at it, you'll find it one day if you search people out there that want to see that. And I thought I'm going to sit next to Representative Smith on the way home.

51:51

We have like, I don't know, a 24 hour plane ride, and I'm gonna convince him of all these things that are wrong, because I thought he was the man. He's just a Republican Congress person. He's the man. But instead, and I'd have to credit him, because I'm sure it wasn't me at that time, he opened up the conversation talking about other human rights abuses. He was the head of the Human Rights Committee at that point in the House, and he cared about things that I cared about.

52:20

I remember us talking about some things that were happening in China and some things that were happening, I believe, in Argentina. And we had these conversations that were quite eye-opening. I'm sitting next to this guy who I thought was all against me, and we have so much in common. So, we actually never talked about the things in which we had different opinions. There wasn't enough time. So, just on that, being able to find that and move forward from that is really important.

52:49

And my job out of college, so I did international peace and conflict resolution, I thought I'd be this hostage negotiator is what I thought what my future was going to be. I'd worked for the UN, but I got a job organizing for the War of the Sisters League, this 80-year-old peace organization. And I would travel around organizing all the local chapters on their protest against the military industrial complex. And they certainly had a lot of work.

53:18

a very specific lens or pacifist organization. They've been around for 80 years. There were people who had dodged the draft from ages ago that were still working there. And I saw that they were missing voices like mine. Why would someone my age be against the military industrial complex? For very, very different reasons than folks who have been there for 80 years. And that took me on a little bit of a journey too.

53:48

So in 1998 was when I was arrested in Burma. My first job out of college was at the War Resisters League. I had a few more jobs before I had kids. And I started working here in 2013. So that's quite a while.

54:10

And the jobs I had after the War Resisters League was at the Rape Crisis Center out in the Bay Area at the Ruckus Society, an activist organization. I was training people how to climb buildings and hang banners and all sorts of protest things. I carried on this trajectory of organizing and civil disobedience until my kids were young. And I wanted to get back into work. And I did some really deep thinking about what I wanted to do in the future. And I wanted to play a bigger game.

54:39

I've always been that person who wanted to fight for justice. I've always been that person who wanted to think how to do it strategically. And so I said, I don't want to play small anymore. And so I wrote down a list of organizations and people who I thought were doing big work. And one of the names I wrote down was Van Jones. Cause Van was just like me. We had been in activist spaces together. We had been working in the same thing for quite a while. But at that moment, he had already had a job in the White House. He was now on CNN.

55:08

And in 2013, I thought, well, we have the same background. He's playing a big game. And literally, after I wrote his name on paper, a week later, a job description came across my desk to work at his organization. And so that was in 2013. We were called Rebuild the Dream then. And in 2019, I became CEO when he left and worked on a different group. And it's been a really wild four years as CEO. I like that.

55:35

2020 was involved. So yes, it was wild. 2020 and a little bit. Yeah, there's a lot going on. I mean, now you're able to, right, like I think before, I think of this activist you, you were doing specific events or you were going to specific places, protests of such. And now with your organization, you guys are actually helping to make policy changes and around the country, state level, local level, state level.

56:03

nationwide kind of thing, federal level. And so you are, you're affecting that big change now and leveling up each time and changing the individual life. Absolutely. Change at scale in the social justice world involves legislation. It's how you can change a big piece of something all at once. And I have been protesting my whole life, as I told you, since we started this. And nothing has had as much of an impact.

56:33

is doing legislation in the way that we do it. In 2018, we have our five-year anniversary of when the First Step Act passed the federal government, which was a criminal justice reform bill on the federal level. Since that passed, over 20,000 people have come home from prison. I never once in my activist life had that impact before, now. But the reason why it's been able to do it is it had bipartisan support.

57:02

it passed under the Trump administration with 87 senators, I think. So that's not just like a little bipartisanship. That's major bipartisanship. That's almost everybody. So it's durable. It won't easily be overturned. It will stick. It will stay and more people will come home. That's what I've been wanting to do my whole life. I just wasn't ever in that moment where the strategy and my morals

57:29

and my vision all lined up until I was here at dream.org. Well, and I would imagine I'm gonna put words in your mouth and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but- Go for it. I would imagine that someone like you, all those experiences add up though. They're valuable experiences, there were things that you brought away from each of those experiences that probably make you better at what you're doing now, or most definitely make you better at what you're doing now. Yeah, and I'd even go further. I think those words are exactly right.

57:58

I'd go further and say all of that is necessary to still be doing now. We need people on the streets causing a scene, making people wake up to certain things. I usually explain there's an ecosystem of social change and everyone can play a role, whether you are someone working in a company trying to pass a policy around diversity and inclusion or you're on the street like me protesting some recent change in law.

58:27

It's an ecosystem where we need each other. And once we can see that, that we're all serving purposes, we actually become more impactful and effective as well. So I agree, I think all those experiences shape me. I happen to have been parts of different parts of that social change ecosystem, but I think it's healthy, we need that. Well, and it helps you understand each of those different parts. I'm not gonna say levels, because I think, you know, they're more nebulous than that, I think.

58:54

But having been in all those pieces, I think it helps you orchestrate things more at the sea level that you're at. I think it's fascinating. And I often talk to people with real big tragedies in their lives. And almost all of us look back at the experiences that we've had because of that moment and are grateful. Like, I wouldn't go back to 1989.

59:23

and change things, as crappy as that feels to say, all the moments built up to this, built up to having this conversation with you and being able to do these things that I'm doing in this version of my life. And so I think it's the same in your case. Like you had to, all those things brought you exactly to where you needed to be. Amanda, same thing. All of those tragic pieces brought her to your organization and allow her to now affect change.

59:52

people around her that she doesn't even know. You know, and it's amazing that impact and how life just takes us there.

01:00:02

And it just goes, there's a group of people who talk about this. You hear it. You often see it scrolling up on the self-help pages on Instagram. But this idea of the things that happen to you, you don't have a choice. You can't change that. It happened to you. The only thing we have that power over is how we use it and how we interpret it and what meaning we make of it. Because there are going to be things that happened to us out of our control. And some of them will be.

01:00:32

horrible, horrible things like what you experience. And that resilience and that skill, when I raise, you know, raising my kids, that piece is important. That resilience, that ability to take what comes at you and figure out, and now what? So you got cut from that team, now what? How do we react to these moments is really what makes our lives. You know, I like to kind of wrap up these conversations with a question. I wonder if like this version of Nisha could go back to, right before you were about to

01:01:02

lock yourself onto that center circle in the circus. If this version of you could say anything to her, is there anything you would want to tell her?

01:01:15

I'd tell her honestly to be even bolder, which is strange to say, hearing the stories I told you during this one is, be even bolder, go as far as you think, because those, putting yourself out there is the learning. If I didn't go give some big speech and bomb, if I hadn't gotten arrested, if I didn't take some of these big risks, I don't know that I would have learned as fast as I learned or learned what I learned, so.

01:01:45

It's funny now, I almost want to give this Nisha that advice too. Go ahead and be bolder. I think we can get complacent sometimes, but I don't know with the work that you guys are doing, it's probably very hard to get too complacent. I think that you guys are affecting change. And I think it seems like that's always been in your blood and it will be in there for the rest of time. And you'll always be fighting until you have no fight left and then it'll just be over, but we won't talk about that because you're going to continue doing what you're doing.

01:02:14

If people want to learn more about you, connect with you and your organization, what's the best way that they can find you and be in your orbit and be a part of it? Yeah, luckily we're really easy to find because our website is dream.org. And my name, nishaannand.org, you'll also find a website about me, but you can find me at dream.org too. Perfect, we'll include all that information for any listeners that want to connect with you. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on and sharing your story. And I think...

01:02:44

there will be many people listening that will feel more inspired to kind of come to the table with people that maybe they've dismissed in the past because of the things that we talked about because they feel like, oh, I can't even get through. We can't even come to some kind of middle ground or a space that where it all works. So thank you for just being a part of this journey with me. And we'll share all that information so people can connect with you. And for those of you listening, thank you for being a part of this journey with me as well. And

01:03:14

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. But in the meantime, if you'll share this episode with a friend that you think might need to hear it, I would love that. And I think Nisha would love that as well. So thank you for being a part of this, Nisha. Thanks for having me. No problem. We'll see you next week, everyone.

01:03:42

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com