Facing Tomorrow: Transforming Grief into Strength and Wisdom | John Kelley

00:00
And then sometimes he would just have like those mind blowing philosophical conversations, you know, like I am because I am and, uh, you know, I can't think therefore I'm not. And like, he would just bring these weird things up that he's read or heard of in the past. And one of his things that he would always say was much simpler than all of that. And it was tomorrow's not promised. And he, he's told me that from a young age is something that I'd always heard. And it's just not something that I'd understood yet. And it was,

00:29
In an instant, when I was told he's gone, it all of a sudden was a lesson learned of damn, tomorrow's not promised. In this week's episode, I speak with my new friend, John Kelley. John's a Texas firefighter, an entrepreneur, a marketing professional, pretty much does it all. And in this episode, John shares his story of loss, resilience, and perseverance.

00:56
He discusses his father's advice and how that followed him through his life, and then the sudden and untimely death of his parents at different times in his life, and how he's been able to find the strength in his story and use it to help others. If any of these areas are triggering for you, please make sure to take care of yourself while you're listening to this episode. As you can imagine, I was interested in his story because of what I assumed would be similar experiences, and I was wrong.

01:24
But as you'll hear, we both discuss how people that face trauma often think that others have it worse in those situations. So we agreed that everyone's experience is the worst that it can be for them at that time. But what I liked about this conversation is what happened after and what John's done since then and what he's learned about himself and how he uses that to help others. So I really hope that you find inspiration in John Kelly's story.

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This episode is supported by all of my Patreon members. And if you wanna join the Patreon community, head over to thelifeshiftpodcast.com forward slash join, and you can find out more about the different tiers and how you can enter yourself in the t-shirt giveaway. In our last giveaway, Brian and Marissa both chose the pivotal t-shirts that I designed. The next drawing is creeping up when we hit the next milestone, and it will be ongoing for every milestone after that. With that said,

02:24
Please enjoy this week's episode with my new friend, John Kelley. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:47
Hello my friends, welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with John the Marketer, but we'll also call you John Kelley. That's my real name, but you know, John the Marketer had to find something catchy to get people's attention. I like it, but you're also on Twitter as John the Podcaster, so you have many monikers. Yeah, well, John the Marketer was taken on Twitter, so whoever has that, I really appreciate you. So I was like, you know what, this is a good time too to kind of use it to promote my podcast, and since-

03:15
You and I both are always on podcasts. You understand that sometimes you got to go from both angles there and say, Hey, I'm also a podcaster and I can help you in that space. Your podcast that you are mainly on is small business origins. Is that correct? That's it. Yeah, man. We tell the small business story, the story behind the entrepreneur, the origin, where they came from and how they got to what they're doing now. Cause we've talked a little bit behind the scenes. We had a long Twitter exchange actually, which was so wonderful. And I think.

03:44
It made me understand your podcast more and the direction that you go in your podcast and how curious you are about your guests and how open you are with your guests. Because I think what was interesting to me is, you typically listen to, or I'm gonna stereotype here, people typically listen to business to business type podcasts and they're...

04:07
They're directional, right? Like there's one main goal and you're trying to do XYZ or you're trying to sell this particular thought or product or whatever it is. And yours is so human-based for a business to business podcast. And I think possibly your life experience kind of shaped why that direction is there. Is that true? Not to get all into a business podcast on this show, but definitely when it comes to branding, it's connecting with your audience.

04:34
And while some people will connect with their basic needs in business, whether it's marketing or sales or what have you, it's easier to connect on an emotional and human level. And that's what I like to bring into it. That's why even though you're not a business podcast, our podcasts are so similar because I want to connect on that human level and open up. And sometimes we get vulnerable on my show. Sometimes there's tears. Sometimes there's serious conversations.

04:59
And then other times it's just kind of like, I always tell people a 30 to 45 minute commercial that someone wants to actually listen to because they hear the story behind the person and why they do what they do. That's the big thing for us. The way we were introduced, or at least from my perspective, the way we were introduced was you mentioned one of your episodes and it was about, it was with the owner or founder of a grief camp or what I'm calling a grief camp experience camps, maybe that was called

05:27
experience camps, but that's exactly what they are as a grief camp. If anyone listening has listened to my particular story, my friend Kristen and I were talking about how we discovered this grief camp news story. And so as soon as you posted that, I was like, I need to listen to this. And then you divulged a little bit of your personal story on there. And I felt an immediate connection because some of it aligns with things that I've experienced in my life. So thank you for being a part of this. And I think we're going to have some similarities, but also I think.

05:57
I'm gonna be like, I don't know, I don't know how to, I think there's gonna be moments where I'm gonna be like, my situation is so simple compared to your story. So without giving out any details, right? Right, yeah, maybe you can paint the picture of what your life was like before that first of two big pivotal moments in your life. Yeah, that's the big thing I think that connected you and I together was that we were children when this happened.

06:25
I don't think anyone can truly understand losing a parent or someone that's close to you as a child unless you actually went through it. It's one thing to tell people all the time, you know, hey, condolences to you and your family or I'm praying for you or whatever your, your mantra may be there for people who are going through a hard time. But for a child, it's so different because we don't have our basic mindset to be able to handle the grief that we're going through. And so it kind of puts us in a.

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completely different situation of handling that moment. And oftentimes, obviously, it's the wrong way to handle it. And it leads some children down some very wrong paths. So that's basically it, man. We were kids, you know? And I was 16 years old when I lost my father, and it was just a normal childhood. I had two parents, both of them loved me tremendously. Growing up, we had a great, you know, family at home aesthetic as far as...

07:23
going on vacations, we had enough money to live a nice lifestyle, no complaints. My dad worked his face off for what he had. He was an entrepreneur. He did work for somebody as well. My mom worked, so it was two incomes and then just enter one bad thing after another. Went through a divorce, which was extremely rocky to start as they usually are. And then it kind of turned into more of like a co-parenting situation.

07:52
where my parents lived close together. So even though I was going through this without having both of my parents in the same home, it really felt like I still had both of my parents fully involved in my life. I didn't have to go to my dad every other weekend now. I could just go when I wanted to. He could take me to school, I could ride the bus, I could do whatever I wanted to from either household because it was just close enough that life wasn't disrupted. I think there's a lot of people that cannot relate to a divorce situation.

08:23
like that because, you know, even though the parents are no longer together, it sounds like your life didn't change too much besides the fact that you had like now two bedrooms or you had the, you know, you could go either place and do that. Whereas, you know, as I listened to that story, I vividly remember like I had home base. And then I had like vacation with my dad, you know, like every Wednesday and every other weekend, I would go hang out with my dad. And that became like

08:52
That was like a subset of my life versus it sounds like your life continued to go on the path. You just, you know, had two different homes to to bounce back and forth to. It didn't start that way. You know, it started as what you would describe. And it was actually much worse because, you know, I say I grew up a normal life and and had this like great at home aesthetic and all this stuff. But there were problems. You know, of course, the divorce was for a reason. But.

09:21
For me personally, and for my sister, the good thing is we weren't involved in those problems. For us, everything was fine. Just to be honest, I mean, I had parents that were beating the crap out of each other, and we were witnessing this stuff, and going to my room, and shutting the door, and playing Donkey Kong at full volume on the NES, and all this stuff, because there were definitely problems between the marriage. So when it first ended, I mean, we were talking knockdown drag outs.

09:49
outside of the home, in the workplace, restraining orders. At 6 p.m. on Friday, I can remember walking down the long driveway from my grandma's house to the end of the road so that my dad could pick me up and not violate the restraining order. And then, you know, on Sunday, I remember just crying on the way back home because it was like, I don't want to leave my dad. You know, I want both of my parents. Like this is something I want. And then I remember on Christmas, you know, saying...

10:18
My only wish to Santa Claus is that mom and dad were back together. And that was with all of the fighting that happened in the house. I still wanted my mom and dad back together, you know, and then what needed to happen happened and they got over their crap. And then we were able to kind of coexist. That's that's quite a journey in itself. Was there ever a before time like when you were growing up where where where the outside image of this this idyllic family, if you will, this

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picture perfect? Was the inside the same at any point in that life or was it always kind of a little bit traumatic? Man, it just it went where we would have days or weeks that were perfect. And then all of a sudden, it would be a knockdown drag out and then right back to perfect again, you know, I wouldn't say that any of our life was like fake or you know, for show. We absolutely when times were good, they were great. But it was like being bipolar where you just kind of

11:16
you had those great times and while they were great, you were on this high and everything was perfect. And then during the bad times, the good thing is we were sheltered from any, like we weren't abused, we weren't a part of any of the things that were happening. It was strictly between mom and dad. And so that was the good part of that. And then, you know, all of that stuff kind of healed up and we got past it and you're right, it did. It really went from having two separate places of

11:43
you know, that home base and then something else that I get to go do, like you said, vacation, which it kind of was, we'd go to Astroworld here in Houston. And, um, you know, we'd go do something fun because we didn't want to just sit around the apartment all day and do nothing. Time is limited when you have those little, you know, you have two days with your dad, it was like, you got to pack those with things to do, but then you go home with mom and you're like, Oh, this is boring. Like, what am I doing here? This is my normal life. So I understand that. My mom hated it.

12:12
She hated it because she did. She was like, it's like vacation for you. He's the hero. You love him because you go do stuff that's fun. But then I'm here paying the bills and sending your ass to school, you know? So do your homework. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, and I know going through this, you know, of course, we we want to talk about the one pivotal moment, the thing that occurred, you know. But it surprised me when I sat down with a therapist for my first time at over 30 years old, whenever I said, hey, here's my life story and told him

12:42
I think it was a two or two and a half hour session that went well over the session you get when you sit down with a therapist. And at the end of it, he was like, my God. And I'm like, huh, if this guy is saying that, this is not a good life. Like I've been through some stuff, but I don't call myself a victim and I don't live in that victim mentality. So I know we're kind of jumping all over the place here, but alluding to something you spoke about of like thinking about what I'm going through and how bad it is.

13:12
you know, for me. And then I look at what someone else is going through and I'm like, man, they have it so much worse. And it's like, I don't think that anybody necessarily has it worse. I mean, sure, you can, if someone was as a child, sexually assaulted or physically assaulted by their parents, I would agree that's worse than anything I've ever been through, sure. At a macro level, flying high, looking down, I think we're all going through a lot of crap and it's not fair to compare ourselves to other people and just know that it's the worst for that person.

13:42
So yeah, you know, your story may seem like nothing compared to mine when you were thinking of it from your mind. But for me, I know that what you're going through is worse than, you know, anything else you've ever gone through, because you're the one that has to live with it. It's your bad time, if you will. So it's interesting because I think, you know, that's wonderful that you don't have this victim mentality. And hopefully that did you feel like that your whole life or was that post?

14:11
therapy or you just were like, this is my life. No, I definitely didn't feel like that my whole life. What actually happened was whenever I was sitting there thinking about my dad and how bad these this thing was, and I know we're going to talk about it here in a little bit, so I don't want to give away too much, but I was feeling sorry for myself and I was absolutely in that like, this is the worst thing ever. I need my dad now victim mentality. And for me, it's Christianity. You know, it's what I.

14:40
have been born into. It's what I believe in. I don't go to church every Sunday. I'm definitely not a perfect Christian, but I do believe in a higher power. So, I was sitting there looking at this dollar store candle. It was on my desk in my room, and it was Jesus Christ on the cross. I was like, oh my God, here I am as a Christian who believes in Jesus coming to the earth and being persecuted and then being killed and crucified.

15:11
And I'm like, but I think I have it bad. And that's where that first comparison came to me of not being in that victim mentality was, holy crap, everybody's going through something. And that is kind of a pivotal moment for me where I went from being so selfish as a child to realizing that the world is bigger than I am. Isn't that so interesting that we can like, we can pinpoint something like you just sitting and looking at a candle that can change your perspective on

15:41
so many things. Like I've had people on the show, early on a friend of mine, she got a piece of mail that it triggered something in her that she was like, you know, screw this, I'm gonna start my own business, I'm gonna do the things that I wanna do, just from a piece of mail. And like you sitting there and looking at a candle, and I know that's not what we came on here to talk about, but you know, that's something significant because it...

16:05
something and knock it like it's a candle right it's a dollar store yeah right that was sitting there and you at that moment took and connected it because you've probably seen the candle before right it wasn't like all the time like it wasn't a brand new candle that you just got and it was like oh wow connection but that moment of looking at it changed your perspective I don't I don't think a lot of people take that time to like really think about

16:33
What did this glass do to me today? You know, like that's yeah, that's significant and good for you for finding your way out and using your faith to to make those connections of like. Comparison is just going to hurt all of us, right, because we're going to just this victim mentality. And. No, I think I think that's great. Tell me about tell me about your dad, because I think this sets off another. Trajectory for you. Absolutely. Yeah. So, man.

17:02
Love my dad. He taught me so much in my life. And we had so many conversations growing up where we would have knockdown drag out debates and arguments. And because, you know, I was a Christian and he was not atheist, but he didn't believe necessarily in God. He believed kind of like God was everything, which had more similarities than I think he even knew. But we would, you know, debate about that stuff. And then we would debate about politics because I was always

17:31
more conservative leaning and he was always more liberal leaning. We were just, we were like opposites, but we learned from each other. And I think it really opened me up to be this open person that it's like, I can talk to anybody and be friends with anybody, no matter what side of the political aisle, religious aisle, no matter what you subscribe to, what you believe in, we can always get along. And he taught me a lot of these life lessons. And it's something that a father is supposed to do for any child, but especially a young man that's...

18:00
you know, 15, 16 years old and truly starting to become an adult. That's when it happened, man. It was actually New Year's Eve. It was 2004, December 31st. I wasn't with my dad for that New Year celebration, which is something that I would probably typically go do because my mom was always kind of at home. And my dad was definitely one that I've been bar since I was 12 years old, little ice houses, shooting pool, taking old men.

18:28
for their money and getting my dad free beer. And then, you know, we would trade off on other stuff later that he would pay me for or whatever else. And so New Year's Eve, he's out celebrating. I was at a friend of mine's house with some family and, you know, I was drinking. He was out there drinking and then we had next telephones. I don't know if you remember those, but the little chirp, the little two-way radio function on them. I'm glad those don't exist. And so the phone lines were down and he was able to hit me up on the little two-way.

18:57
And it was just after midnight, January 1, 2005. And he hit me up. And it brings tears to my eyes because I think about, this is the last conversation I have with my dad. He said, hey son, just want to tell you happy new year and I love you. So I go back with him on that. I'm like, hey, I'm right down the road in Hockley. You want to come pick me up? He was like, no, I'm going home with two women. And it was a joke. He was just partying with two friends of ours at the bar. And then my sister and my brother-in-law went home with them.

19:26
and they all kind of saw him there at the house. They were just finishing up kind of the, after the bar shuts down, celebration shuts down, have a few drinks and talk type thing, and they went home. And then shortly after they left and got back to the house, they get a phone call. And it was one of the two people that were with them. And they said, hey, I think Gary's dead. They're like, oh my God, did you call 911? Did you call whoever? And they're like, no, I think he's just dead. And...

19:53
basically turned out to be two of the biggest idiots in the world that could have ever been with them. But they called another friend and said, hey, you know, because my sister lived like 30 minutes away. So this other friend who she's now gone as well, but she rushed over to his house and on the way called 911 and did all the things that you were supposed to do if you're a good friend and there with my dad while he's dying. Basically EMS came out, law enforcement came out, pronounced them. And then

20:20
That was it. There was just nothing you could do. And the autopsy results came back and he had basically what they call the widow maker heart attack along with everything else, you know, his past life and what he had done during that life and all the other health factors because he didn't go to the doctor, didn't believe in him and, you know, that kind of stuff. So the high blood pressure, the medicines in the cabinet he didn't take, all that just kind of led to three major blockages in his arteries and his heart.

20:47
I would say the only thing that's ever brought me comfort from a medical perspective, because I'm a paramedic, is that the coroner basically said if someone was there with him the moment he had a heart attack that had resuscitation efforts in place, he probably still would have passed away. It was just a typical widowmaker heart attack death that killed him. So that next morning, I'm waking up from a night of drinking and at 16 years old, I know, I was a stellar—

21:15
Still our stand up person back then. And my mom is there. And my sister and my brother-in-law and the friends that we were with woke me up and said, Hey, you know, your sister and your mom are on the way to come get you. And I'm like, this is weird. It's eight o'clock in the morning. My mom knows that I was drinking. So normally they wouldn't come pick me up this early. You know, like this is, this is weird. So I packed up my stuff and I'm standing at the front door and I open it and I see my brother-in-law and I'm like, why is he here?

21:44
You know, why are they all here to come pick me up? And that's when I knew something was wrong. I just didn't know what. And that's when my sister told me. And she said, hey, I don't know any other way to say this, but dad's gone. And everything just flew. My entire life just kind of like flew by and everything seemed insignificant. And it was just, you know, at 16 years old, the hardest news by far that I could have ever received in my life, for sure.

22:14
You say that the whole world flew by. Do you remember those moments? Do you remember right after you were told? Do you remember how you reacted? I don't remember much for me. I guess I was old enough, which is, you know, talking about comparing ourselves. I feel lucky in that, that I was old enough to truly remember every single thing about my dad. All of the moments we went through from a very young age.

22:42
And then of course, I've got plenty of VHS tapes and stuff that I can still go back and watch too. Luckily, my dad recorded so much all the time of our lives and what we did. He knew before we had cell phones that it was going to be important to capture these memories. And during that moment, it's kind of like the candle. I can tell you the desk I was sitting at, what wall it was on in the room of the house that I lived at at the time. I could tell you it was evening time. You know, like I can...

23:11
I can almost remember the smell of the room as I was sitting in there. And it's the same thing with that news. I remember dropping my bag that had my video game console in it. Um, I remember slumping against the wall and I just remember thinking about memories of my dad already in that moment of just like, Oh my God, we do this, we do this, we do this. And then it immediately just kind of switched to what killed him, you know? And it was the expectation. My dad was that like,

23:40
You know, live fast, die young, like have a good life. He was a hippie, you know, so he was just that kind of guy that was like, live every moment freely and don't worry about it. So I'm like, did he die on his motorcycle? Did he die in a truck accident, you know, cause he's hauling ass down the road? Like there's, it had to be an accidental death, right? And then it just turned into, you know, we're not sure what happened. He just all of a sudden had trouble breathing and then stopped.

24:07
It's interesting to hear you kind of remember those moments. I remember, I mean, I guess your pivotal moment is probably when your brother-in-law or your sister told you. Your sister, right? Your sister told you that he died? Yeah, my sister was the one that told me. It's like your whole world just changed in that moment. I remember walking into my dad's office and him, like, sitting on the edge of his desk. And then, I don't remember anything else after that for probably a couple days.

24:36
And I wonder, you being 16, had you experienced death before? Did you know anyone that had died? Did you understand the finality of that? It sounds weird to ask, but did you have a concept of it? It's such a great question because I feel like I have been 30 years old since I was six. I know a lot of people like to say, oh, I was always mature for my age, or.

25:06
anything else, but I truly feel like when I was born, I was an old soul that just, I had an understanding for things very early on at five years old. I was that typical kid that was like, I want to get baptized. And my parents and the preacher, they're like, Hey, I get it. You know, and it's probably just because he sees other people doing it and wants to be excited about it. And then the preacher sat down for a one-on-one with me and started asking me questions and came out of that meeting and told my mom, I know he's five, but I think he's ready. Like,

25:35
He's answering the questions the way that I would want a person who's coming to Christianity to answer these questions. And I've dealt with death since I was young, man. We had a family in Waller, Texas, where I grew up, that was like family to us, but they were just friends, the Alexanders. And when we lost Romeo, who was this well-known figure in the community that was a record driver and, you know, just kind of that, if you think of like an old west town, it was kind of that same feel of like...

26:03
Yep, broke down on the side of the road, but Romeo showed up and, you know, swapped my tire for me and took care of everything, and now we're back on down the road type thing. That was Romeo, except he was, you know, huge black guy, like just true family friend. That was my uncle Romeo. I didn't know any different, just because my skin color was different, didn't mean he wasn't family to me. And that's the first death that I dealt with, and I dealt with hard. I think I was seven, six or seven years old.

26:33
very young and I can remember when I was sitting in the back of my mom's vehicle and it was after the funeral, I was totally fine, everything was fine. And then sitting in that back seat, I just lost it. And it was like full on tears, sobbing, crying, just losing it. And that's when I really began to recognize like what it was to lose somebody. And then after that, it was just like...

26:57
You know, one of the, we always joked one of the black sheep of our family, Aunt Faye, that so many people had bad things to say about. And then so many of us also had good things to say about, again, not that she was a perfect person, but as a child, from my perspective, she was perfect as an aunt to me. And so I was super close with her and I'd go up to her dry cleaners where she was working and we'd eat ice cream together and all that kind of stuff. And it was like lost Aunt Faye, lost my great grandmother.

27:23
lost a friend, my best friend to suicide in my front yard while I'm going through EMT school learning how to save lives. Like it was just one death after the other that I just had stacked on top of me. And each time learned a lesson from it changed, you know, my perspective on things up until where I'm at now. But 100% to answer your question in the longest way I think I could find possible. Yes, I've had an understanding for loss ever since I was very young.

27:49
I asked that just because I wonder if because you understood that if that's why all the memories and all the things that you did do with your dad and the things you were no longer going to be able to do with your dad. If that was the reason because you knew like for me. I truly don't know if I understood what like that was it like you were so young. Right. I was eight.

28:13
But also like your, hey, you should understand that, but I just don't think if you haven't experienced it before, I don't know that you can be like, oh, like I can't make those memories. And so it's curious to me that you were able to kind of have that life flash before your eyes kind of moment when you heard that your father had passed. After that moment, what about your life like changed?

28:43
You know when somebody tells you something, I don't know if you're a parent or if you've been around parents, I know the parents listening can understand when you tell your child something a million times and they don't listen. And sometimes it's for their betterment. It's like, hey, I don't want you to do this because I don't want you to get hurt. And then sometimes it takes them falling off the back of the couch when they were crawling on it like a monkey in order to hit their head, get hurt, and then realize, oh crap, dad was telling me this for a reason, I get it.

29:11
and tattooed on me is kind of that hard lesson I had to learn. And it was just, my dad always had some sayings and he always had some thought processes. I mean, he was a pot smoking hippie, you know? So it was nothing for me to hear some like very prophetic things that he would come up with of like, and some of them came true, like having a computer at your TV that runs your entire house. How he knew about that in 1995, I have no idea, but you know, some of these things he thought of,

29:41
that he just knew the world was going to became true. And then sometimes he would just have like those mind blowing philosophical conversations, you know, like I am because I am and, you know, I can't think therefore I'm not. And like, he would just bring these weird things up that he's read or heard of in the past. And one of his things that he would always say was much simpler than all of that. And it was tomorrow's not promised. And he's told me that from a young age is something that I'd always heard.

30:09
It's just not something that I'd understood yet. And it was in an instant when I was told he's gone. It all of a sudden was a lesson learned of. Damn, tomorrow's not promised. And it kind of took it when I went to youth camp and stuff as a kid, it it took it even further to say our next breath is not promised. I mean, anything could happen while we're recording this podcast right here. My coworkers could all of a sudden. Yeah.

30:39
right? No one would forget that one. But it's that instant that, you know, look at the, I know obviously that we record and then episodes come out later, but while we're recording this very recently, we had Damar Hamlin, Buffalo Bills playing a football game and they're just halfway through the first quarter or a little over and then gets a normal standard tackle stands up and then he's gone, you know,

31:06
And thank God with the teammates and the healthcare providers standing by and there, they were able to bring them back. But it's that fast that our next breath is not promised. Like it could change that quickly. And if you wanna talk about my lesson learned, go back and listen to what Damar said in interviews prior to that game. And it goes right along with what we're talking about right now, which is that we have to make the most of what we have at this exact moment because you may never be able to do it again.

31:35
I see that can go in two different ways too. Like tomorrow's not promised, the next breath is not promised. I see someone could be very protective of really curating the perfect whatever. And then someone could just be balls to the wall, crazy, and just like evil Knievel, like nuts. Which one were you? At that moment, I would say honestly,

32:05
kind of do everything I want immediately. I mean, I was a kid. So first of all, let's not even beat around the bush. I was going to do that anyway. I know a lot of people probably feel the same exact way as I do. And that's from probably age 17 until you're 25. You make a lot of really dumb decisions and you do a lot of things because you're just a kid, you know, and then fuel that with, Hey, I've got to live how I want to live and do the things I want to do because tomorrow's not promised. And it wasn't crazy.

32:35
Believe it or not, I didn't get all heavily involved into drugs. I drank, but I didn't get heavily involved into alcohol, didn't become an alcoholic or anything like that. I actually went to work straight out of high school and started working for a huge sheriff's office as a detention officer. And then kind of in between, immediately went to EMS and then fire where I'm at now. It's just always been, I knew what I wanted to do in my life and I'm going to do that.

33:03
but I just kind of live life to the fullest and just made some dumb decisions with money and you know, vehicles that I was driving and kind of that kind of stuff where it was like, hey, I'm making money now, I'm gonna trade in my paid off truck and go get me a fast Mustang that I'm gonna pay for every month. And then when you lose jobs and you know, then you wind up losing the car. And I mean, I've gone in everything from a brand new vehicle right off the lot all the way out to a 1986 Suburban.

33:28
You know carbureted and everything like I've just run the gamut in my life of I'm gonna live the way I want to and then Now, of course, I grew up and settled down and I make a lot better decisions in my life But I still do live a controlled mantra of tomorrow's not promised. So I want to make the most of what I have right now I don't want to wait

33:49
so interesting to me because my experience after facing my mom's death was very different. I didn't want to take any risk. I was afraid, and I think a lot of it was I was afraid of losing the rest that I had. So if I did something wrong, I was afraid my dad was going to leave. Not that he was going to leave, but my eight-year-old brain was telling me,

34:19
he might just like dismiss me and then what? And then I'm all alone. And so that carried through my 20s of just fear-based decision-making. And it wasn't until, like you said, when I went to a therapist and they were just like, you realize that every decision that you've made since that day, you let that eight-year-old make that decision. So hearing your story, I'm like, oh, I'm jealous that.

34:47
I didn't do all the crazy things. You know, and after that grieving period for me and when I faced the death of my grandmother and watched her pass away, that is when I started kind of really living more intentionally. Living like trying things that I could actually fail at and being okay with that. Whereas before it was very much like, I'm gonna try something but just like a little bit more so that I don't fail too hard.

35:16
Whereas now, I'll try it, if it doesn't go well, then I'm okay letting it go, right? And so I'm kind of envious in the sense that, you know, at 16 or even beforehand, because the way that your father was, you were doing those things already and making those mistakes so that now this version of you probably doesn't make as many messy mistakes. Yeah, well, I mean, I'll tell you what though, I made some life altering decisions as that manic 16 year old. I met my now wife.

35:46
right after when my dad passed, that was 2005. So I had gone through a couple girlfriends in that year. And then January of 2006, I met my current wife. And she was a, I was a junior in high school and she was a sophomore. I was a, no, I was a senior at that time in high school and she was a sophomore. And we pretty much decided like a weekend.

36:15
that this is it. We love each other and we're going to be together forever. Like it was that fast. And then on a whim, because we'd had some discussions, obviously, you know, kids doing what kids do whenever parents aren't around, we had some discussion of what's going to happen if we do get pregnant. Like, what do you think about abortion? And what do I think about abortion? And like, how would we live? And we decided, you know what, if it happened, like not that we're wanting it to, but if it did.

36:46
we would just have to get over it and raise our child and live together and these are, we're kids, you know? And then real dumb, she was 17 and I was 19 and we were living with some roommates, a friend of ours came home with their brand new baby and they were probably, she was the same age as me, so 19, they were like 19, 20 years old. Me and my girlfriend at the time look at each other and we're like, man, that baby's so cute, we want one and boom, pregnant. Like by choice.

37:15
Now looking back, I'm like, it's so idiotic, but now I also look back and say, holy crap, I wouldn't be here with my 13 year old. And it's like, man, it was such a great decision, but not at the time. At the time it was dumb. In the end it worked out, but we made some crazy life altering decisions. And probably based on having that 16 year old mentality of I'm going to live life freely as quick and fast and in a hurry as I can.

37:43
And it worked out, but you're right, it was the same thing. I was stuck in almost like a time, not a work, but like a time like, I don't know, just kept me like a vortex of you can't grow past the 16 year old decision making skill, basically. Was there a moment in which. You caught up in the age that you were and like your decision making, was there something in your life that that triggered maybe?

38:11
out of that mode and now into kind of this version of John? So the thing is we never take on the first lesson, I think we understand it a little bit better, but it's kind of like a commercial, you have to hear it three, four or five times. You know, it's like a habit. You have to do it seven, 14, 21 times in order to build it. And it's like you never learn the lesson fully the first time. You know, so I made these dumb decisions and I did treat some people.

38:38
you know, wrongly like moving out of my mom's house because I'm going to go with my sister because I'm this defiant child that's, you know, now going to move and just kind of going through some of these decisions that weren't very tomorrow is not promised like, you know, it's like, is that how you want to end your conversation? Is that the last thing that you want to end the conversation with? And I had to learn that lesson again and it was when I was about 24 years old, I was working for Pale Land Fire Department. I was actually Pale Land EMS, we...

39:07
merged EMS and fire together, got my fire certificate, and I was graduating fire school, what we call pinning ceremony, which is where you invite your family, they get to come watch. Your chief presents you with your badge, presents you with basically that like handshake of you've made it, you've passed, this is it, you know? And so I invited my mom because of course, where would I go without my mom? Well, there's a whole nother backstory of

39:36
drug abuse and alcoholism and things like that that have run in my family and I've not been shy to because of my mom and dad. I love them to death, but everyone has their problems and they had a problem with drugs. So my mom was actively fighting that all the time. She lived with me for a while. She was a fully disabled person. She was COPD and Fizima. She smoked since she was 12. Her lungs were just garbage. So she would get sick.

40:04
All the time she couldn't hold a full-time job because of the amount of time she'd have to spend in the hospital. So I really went more to like that caretaker role than just a child. She could take care of herself. I mean, you know, kind of like growing up when it was good, it was good. When it was bad, she was in the hospital. But when it was good, we're on the side of a mountain in Jamaica, zip lining from tree to tree, you know? So when she could do what she could do, she was perfectly fine. But when her lungs decided they were going to give out for a while, she could be intubated.

40:35
sedated and in the hospital for two, three weeks at a time. And so, kind of going back to pain medication, which is what was prescribed to her because of her multiple injuries and issues she was dealing with, and she would overtake those sometimes. And it caused a lot of drama between us, both growing up and then in the adult life, because she's living at home with me. We built a room in our house for her. And she's around my then-

41:04
five-year-old son, you know, and I knew that that wasn't the life that I wanted him to be subjected to. So we had a very serious conversation and it was exactly like, you know, living by tomorrow's not promised of I love you. I'm not, I'm mad at the situation, but I'm not mad at you. I love you, but I can't have you living here unless you can straighten up. And she kind of took it as the ultimate offense and you don't love me. You don't want me here. She left.

41:33
and she went to live with my grandmother and my aunt for a while. And then they were moving back from, you know, a few towns over back into town. So they were living next door to me at the time that I was getting ready for this badge pinning ceremony. And so I was excited. I'm leaving. My son's pinning me. He's all dressed, ready to go. My wife is ready to go. She's in the truck. And I'm waiting on mom who lives next door to me at a friend's house, a mutual friend's house.

42:00
She comes, she gets in the truck, and it's just if you've ever been around drug abuse or drug users, you can tell. If you've been around them long enough, you can look them in the face for two seconds and go, yep, okay, they're messed up, you know? And I could tell. Just immediately, as soon as she got in the backseat, I already knew, so I was pissed. I was angry, I was mad, I was all of it. And there was no, because this was an important day for me, and I wanted my mom there.

42:26
So I'm not only mad she's messed up, but I'm mad now that she's ruining this. You know, she's messed up and I don't wanna take her because the mayor is there, city council members are there, the fire chief is there, my friends, my coworkers, and my family are there. It's like, I don't want this to happen. And so one thing that we had always agreed to was we're not gonna go to bed mad because tomorrow is not promised. I left pissed and I went to my ceremony.

42:56
and I came home and I was still pissed. And I went to bed pissed, and I woke up pissed about it. Like it was just, I was mad. And so I went about my life, and I went into work for my 24 hour shift after that badge pinning ceremony the next day. And then I came home the next day, and I'm reading a book, and I'm sitting on my couch, and I'm just, you know, I'm a firefighter paramedic, just gone to work, in charge on the ambulance.

43:23
exhausting shift. I'm tired. I'm worn out. You know, we're dealing with people's emergencies. I come home, it's morning time, everyone's asleep. I'm sitting on the couch reading a book and my family starts to wake up. Everyone's moving around. We're getting ready to cook breakfast, that kind of stuff. And somebody knocks on my door and I open the door and it's my aunt. And she said, Hey, you need to come check on your mom. I don't think she's breathing. Well, when you grow up with a mom that has COPD and emphysema and

43:50
all this stuff and you become an EMT and a paramedic. If you don't know this as an average listener, when you have a family member that becomes a paramedic, suddenly they're the family doc. So my mom, my aunt, my grandmother, they treated me like a doctor of just, hey, I've had these symptoms, what do you think I should do? And I'm like, well, I think you should go to your doctor and then see what they want you to do and get a prescription because I'm not a doctor.

44:15
I am a paramedic. If your heart is not going, I can make it go. If you're not breathing, I can make you breathe. And I can do some doctor-like things. We can paralyze you, we can intubate you, put a tube down your throat to make you breathe. I can give you some great medicines for your heart. Like there's all kinds of doctor things that I can do, but we're trained in emergency medicine. We're not trained in family medicine. I can't prescribe medications. I don't know what those medications do and why. Those are meds to treat illnesses. I'm here to treat life threats, so.

44:44
I could never get that through to them. And so I told my aunt, I said, hey, she's not breathing or she's not breathing well. Because I'm thinking, great, mom is sick, she needs to go to the hospital, she needs me to go over and say, yep, you're sick, go to the hospital. And my aunt probably just misspoke. And so now I'm barefoot and I'm chasing her across the driveway and I said, Aunt Rhonda, is she breathing or not? And she said, son, I don't think she's breathing.

45:14
And then I just, when you're a paramedic, you kick into work mode immediately. And so I walk in and there's four adults in the household, not counting my mom, and nobody's doing anything except freaking out on the phone with 911 and running across to grab me because no one knows what to do basically. And so I immediately go into work mode. I'm probably still in uniform at this damn point, like at least a t-shirt and shorts at this point.

45:41
And I walk in, my mom's in kind of a fetal position on the bed, and you see all the typical paramedic things that I'm used to seeing. She's cyanotic, she's apnic, she's taking agonal respirations, which are just not good respirations. It's the neurological system just basically saying, I know I need to breathe and I haven't in a while, so I'm going to try something. And so immediately at that point, I almost in my mind thought, should I even do anything? Because I know her wishes. I know she doesn't want to be a vegetable.

46:10
And I know when I'm looking at agonal breathing that she's probably gone. So what am I even gonna do this for? And then just kind of immediately it went into, well, work mode, we train so that we do it by muscle memory. So muscle memory kicked in. And then it went to sun mode of like, I'm a panicked child of this woman. And so I yank her off of the bed, single-handedly like lift her off the bed, put her on the ground.

46:38
and then start doing compressions because that's all I can do. I don't have medicine, I don't have med bags, I don't have equipment, I don't have anything. So I start doing compressions. I get on the phone with 911 and kind of update them, hey, my name's John Kelly. At the time I was a paramedic with Paralympic Fire Department. I'm doing compressions, downtime of approximately 15 to 20 minutes. Everyone went to sleep. She was breathing loudly. And then when they woke up 20 minutes later, she was no longer breathing loudly. So we had to...

47:07
kind of this unknown downtime. I didn't know if she had overdosed on something or took something. I had no clue what was going on because I was totally disconnected from my mom. And I was mad at prior actions. And then now this is the last time that I'm seeing my mom alive in my mind, right? So I'm doing these compressions. My cousin is there and I'm like, hey.

47:32
you have to do compressions. Like I have to go get Kristin, my wife. I have to, you know, I have to get her, I need her help, whatever else. And he gets down to do compressions and they're just so fast because he's so panicked. And I'm like, okay, those aren't good compressions. I have to take back over. You've got to go get Kristin, go get my wife. And so he goes over and gets my, you know, eight and a half, nine month pregnant wife with our daughter, our middle child. And she comes over kind of in the same mindset, like, okay, John went to check on her and now...

48:02
You know, he needs me over here for something and she comes while and over, you know, because she's big and pregnant and she looks down and she just gasps.

48:14
Sorry.

48:18
That was the moment that I realized how bad it was. Because up until that moment, it was work. But then when I saw her panic.

48:33
I looked at my wife and I said, Mom's dead.

48:37
The hard part was she wasn't just dead like I lost my dad. I was there, I was involved in it, and the last thing I said to my dad was I love you and I'll see you tomorrow. And the last thing I said to my mom, I can't even repeat on your show. But it ended with get out of my truck.

49:04
and expletives included. And that's probably the moment that I realized like you didn't learn the lesson the first time. And there's so much more I had to go through with that death because she lived for a couple of days. We did get a pulse back, but I thought about, like I took a long time off work. I walked in my chief's office. I said, I don't know if I can work on the ambulance anymore. I don't know if I can run another full arrest.

49:34
I can't save my own mother. Why the hell am I out here trying to save other people? that I mean I totally get that

49:45
the fact that you had that conversation with your dad.

49:50
allows for an easier closure, if you will. I don't know that it's easy, but it allows for like... You're 100% correct. It feels, well like, okay, I did that. You know, like we said the things. And then in this sense, you have these compounding things of one, you totally being upset with her, rightfully so, I believe, if I can support that. And in the sense that you had...

50:18
the right to have those feelings and we're human, right? So we can't go to bed happy every night. Sometimes there are things that we're upset about, but I can see how, I think it would be different if you weren't a paramedic, right? If you weren't someone, you know, if you were just a lay person going over there and seeing that situation. But the fact, I can feel the fact that you have the know-how. If you had been there.

50:47
I'm sure if you had been there 20 minutes earlier was in your head. If you had been there the day before and you noticed something, all these things start swirling in your head. How did you take all that and turn it into this version of you? How did you get through all that after your mom passed? I should have gone to therapy and I should have talked to someone, but in typical firefighter, in typical paramedic.

51:17
you know, any first responder or veteran understands the alpha type personality of problem solving and I'll fix it and I can get through it. And it kind of, I went into this mode at home of if I don't deal with it internally and fix the problem for myself, then how do I fix the problem for my five year old who is now suffering the loss of his grandmother who, I mean, he was so close to her that there would be times he would wake up and go to...

51:46
you know, try and get in bed with her and couldn't because he couldn't open the door. So he would just lay down with his pillow and blanket on the floor next to her door just to be close to her, you know. And that's when I realized kind of that shared like we're all victims. So you're not any more of a victim than I am. And I'm no more of a victim than you are. So it's like kind of get over it. We're all victims. I learned that lesson there of like it was hard enough losing my mom. But now I have to look my five year old in his.

52:16
face and tell him Maumau's not coming home. And ask him if he wants to go to the hospital to see her. And tell him it's okay if he doesn't want to. Because of all the tubes and everything that's coming out of her that it's perfectly fine not to go see her. You know, and go through all of these things with him. So I switched to this mode of I have to fix myself and get over it and I'm okay so that I can take care of my family.

52:42
Where I suffered was at work. I had that conversation with my chief because I didn't know if I could get back on the ambulance. I didn't know if I could do my job. I didn't know if I wanted to anymore at that point. You know, and instead of seeking help through an employee assistance program, which was offered, just not advertised, instead of seeking help through my brothers and sisters at the fire station, instead of doing any of that, I internalized it. I went down the wrong path, which was drinking a whole lot more than I should.

53:10
trying to just drown myself in a bottle, having thoughts of, you know, I don't want to kill myself, but if I so happened to die, I wouldn't be upset, you know? And then just kind of self-destruction of anything and everything around me, you know, living the complete opposite of the two lessons I had just been taught. And to the point that, you know, I didn't live at home for a few days because my wife was so done. It was draw up the paperwork.

53:37
sign the paperwork, get the hell out of my house, and rightfully so, I'm not even mad at her for that today because I get it, I was going down the wrong path and it wasn't until I felt comfortable enough to talk to other people. And this was a long process, I'm not talking about my mom died when I was 24 and then at 24 and a half or 25 this happened, I'm talking from 24 until, and if you back up from nine years old until.

54:07
32? Yeah, about 32 is when the like worst, you know, you're at rock bottom happened. And that's when I figured out I need to talk to somebody. And through learning coping skills and through, you know, there's a few podcast episodes I've had of resources that are out there for first responders and learning that I have a community around me that I can build on. That's where I've come to now.

54:36
when the wife and I argue, it's still different than how we used to argue. And we're still trying to get better, but there's still those moments where I learned like, okay, tomorrow's not promised and it is okay to go to bed mad because maybe tomorrow's the time we need to talk about it, but it's not okay to go to bed without saying I still love you. You may be a witch, but I love you. I may be extremely mad at you. I'm sure she has names for you. I hate you right now, but I still love you. Yeah, oh yeah, she's got all kinds of names for me. It's just...

55:05
It's kind of learning to deal with those problems in a way of a healthy manner of talking about it, expressing it and not holding it in. And I know it seems so cliche and everyone always kind of says that like, oh, she used to hold it in and blah, blah, blah, but it's so true, especially in our industry. It's so easy to do because we have to. You know, when you get on scene and it's a motor vehicle accident and the vehicle is traveling 90 to 100 miles an hour with an unrestrained five day old child in it and you're doing compressions on that five day old child.

55:35
You have to hold it together until life flight gets off the ground and that child is on their way for surgery before you can go back to the station and let it loose. But the important part of that is and this works no matter whether you're a first responder or not, go back to the station, go back to home, go back to wherever you're going and let it out and and get over it in a healthy way. Yeah, when you said, you know, I can fix this or I must fix this, it's.

56:04
that's always the sign that we know we can't like we're just going to bury it or we're going to mask it with something and you know, I never want to give people advice when they're facing something like this. And I'm sure you can relate to this if someone else faces it. It's like, however you're feeling at this moment in time, that is 100% okay. If you are so mad, and you just want to throw things and you're just, you know, super pissed, that's okay. You're human. If you're so sad, you know, like

56:32
let yourself be and go through instead of like pushing it away because guess what? It's gonna come at some point and it's not gonna be a good thing. And you kind of experienced, you know, what happens when you kind of try to bottle things up and and kind of went down a path that maybe you regret at this point. But, you know, that was just the tools that you had at that moment in time. And I'm sure you learned a lot from it. Like I said, I start when I was.

56:59
eight or nine, and it even goes before that because it probably starts at the first time I saw my parents fight. And I don't mean fight as in like, oh, I hate you and I hate you. I mean like punching, scratching, hitting. But it's like each of those little grains of sand stack and stack and stack until it makes a mountain. And it's learning to deal with it in that moment. And so it really does go back all the way to that point. And it's like fixing with a bandaid or...

57:28
duct tape or something else, you're just, you're masking the issue until a point that you can't put enough duct tape in the world on it to fix it. And now it kind of explodes and you have to deal with it. And instead of letting it get to that point, it's figuring out that everyone is suffering and everyone's suffering in a different way. And you need to find a healthy outlet for that. And it goes back to, you know, where we started the episode off about grief camps and experience camps and

57:57
I didn't have resources there for me for dealing with my dad's death. And at 16 years old, I looked like I was 22, 23. I could go buy beer at a gas station because they wouldn't ID me because I looked like a grown person. So people probably had some of that like, well, suck it up, buttercup. You're going to get over it. It's going to be okay. You can talk to somebody. There's resources. But I didn't know that there was grief camp. I didn't know that I could go do something like that.

58:24
So I didn't have any of that stuff available. So I dealt with it by sleeping and not going to school for a lot of days to the point that I had to do community service to make up for it. And it's like, if we had those resources at the time, I think we could have fixed the problem at a young age and learned the positive way to handle those circumstances and not have to come out in the end as a 30 year old who's going through one of the worst moments of their life.

58:48
I agree. I mean, I think there's such a stigma and I think the stigma is going away a little bit. I think we're slowly getting to a place where we realize that mental health is important and it's not something that is, is shows any weakness or anything like that. I think we've always like for so long people associate like, don't talk about that. You're fine. Everything's great. Everything's roses, you know, and that's what I love about some of the episodes that you do on your show is that, you know, you just get to the real questions you get to the real like vulnerable.

59:18
human aspect of these business owners. And I can see that it clearly comes from your traumatic experiences, but but also what you've learned from those traumatic experiences. And it's kind of the same reason that I do my show. And, you know, is that I know what it was like when I was in those really terrible parts. And then I also know what it's like when I fixed it, you know, like when I found the space that was comfortable. And so I appreciate you sharing. I mean,

59:48
or go back to this comparison thing, but I can't imagine experiencing the things that you have in the way that you have, and then being able to be the person that you are now. So super honored that you wanted to just come on here and share it with me. Absolutely. What episode number was it? I listened to it, I promise, because you sent it to me on Twitter and I gave you a play by play of my thoughts. But what episode number was it where you talked about your stuff?

01:00:12
It was originally episode 11 and then I just did a replay towards the end of 2022, uh, just for new people to listen to. I know if people are listening right now that, um, you know, hopefully they're already big fans and have already heard that episode, but if they haven't, I just want to encourage people to listen to your episode to number 11 and hear that story because, um, it is, it's crazy how we kind of compare ourselves. I know we've talked about that already, but I couldn't imagine being younger.

01:00:40
and not having an understanding and then thinking about the ways of, you know, one of the hardest parts for me of dealing with loss is dealing with the loss of memory of that person. It's like, and I don't know what they smell like anymore. I don't know what they sound like. I can't remember. Like I need to go listen to a recording or you know, you lose those memories and it's like when you're eight, a lot of memories that I had when I was eight were gone. So I can't imagine going through what you went through in the same way. So I just, I want to tell people if they haven't heard the story, then.

01:01:09
go back and listen to yours, compare it to mine, and then see where we are both able to say, man, I couldn't imagine going through the crap you went through, you know, like that sucks. And understand that if you were out there and you're dealing with this hard moment of life where you went through something or you're currently going through something, know that we probably have the same feeling of, man, I can't imagine what this listener's going through right now as they listen to the show. And I couldn't imagine going through that. And they're listening to us, you know, it's like a...

01:01:39
a dream within a dream within a dream of like, you know, they can't understand how we could even sympathize with them. But I just want to tell them that we can. And whether you're a man or a woman, you know, or you identify as something else, or whether you're Republican leaning or, or liberal leaning or, you know, like whatever you're in currently, it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to reach out.

01:02:04
and it's okay to have conversations like this. You know, I think that's something you and I talked about in our Twitter conversation of like, well, we're both men. So this really needs to happen because there's such a machismo around, well, men can't be sad, men can't cry. And I can tell you right now that I've got one of the most blue collar jobs in the world. I run into burning buildings wearing heavy gear that's 70 to 80 pounds. And we very truly do sometimes save people's lives. And I can tell you that at the end of the day,

01:02:33
when something is hard on us at the station, we're all different, male, female, or we're all different people, but we sit down as one. And we look at each other and we cry and we laugh and we go through whatever emotion we have to go through to get through the calls that we had to see because we realized the importance. And at one point in time, we would have called each other wussies, we would have said, it's weakness to show any type of crap. Like you're a firefighter, get back out there and go do what you do.

01:03:03
But things around, the thoughts around that are changing. The perception is changing. And I just want any listener to know, doesn't matter what you identify as or who you are or where you are, it's okay not to be okay. And if you need to reach out to somebody, Matt, I know that your social media channels and emails always open, mine is, I'll talk to you at one o'clock in the morning, even if I don't know you, if it means keeping you from doing something to yourself or helping you to get through whatever it is you're going through.

01:03:32
You're so right. And I'm happy to hear that, you know, there is there's there's some kind of, you know, you think of the alpha alpha attitude in a in a fire department or you think of the old old days. My grandfather was a firefighter for 40 years, so I know what you're talking about. But I'm happy to hear that you guys take time to do the human part where you've just done a lot of really saving lives or saving buildings or whatever you are doing. And then you come back and.

01:04:02
tell each other how you feel. I think that's so important and so important that you agreed to be a part of the Life Shift podcast and share your story. And I've learned so much and it's so interesting because so many people go through quote unquote similar things, but everything is so different as well. But yet you still feel that connection because you can empathize and you can feel that way. And that's what I hope.

01:04:31
all of my episodes do, at least one person hears this and is like, oh, I'm not alone in this. I feel the same way. And so thank you so much for just being a part of this. Yeah, it's been my pleasure, man. Thank you for having me on and what a great conversation. And if you are listening and enjoy this, as John knows, five stars in those reviews on Apple podcasts are nice little ego boosts. I don't know what else they do, but they feel good when we see them. So if you have the time and you wanna do that, please do that and we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

01:05:12
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com