Grief and Light After the Unexpected Death of a Sibling | Nina Rodriguez

00:00
I kid you not, right as we're having that conversation, my phone rings and I pick up my dad says, are you sitting down? And for context, I told him, you know, you really stress me out whenever you call me because it sounds like something's wrong. Like, could you just, let's have a code word or a phrase that if something actually is wrong, you're going to say those words. And so we agreed upon, are you sitting down? And so...

00:26
However, in that moment, because I was wrapped up in the other conversation, when he said that, I was like, no, why? And it didn't click. And then he said what he said. I still can't say the words because it's just too much. But he said the words that obviously changed everything. Today's guest is Nina Rodriguez. Nina's story is one of grief, unexpected loss, and truly the incredible journey of finding healing and transformation that came with it.

00:56
In this episode, Nina opens up about the sudden passing of her brother, and it was a moment that really changed everything in an instant. So we talk about those last joyful moments that they shared, and the immediate shock and surrealism of receiving such devastating news. I'm pretty sure that many of you can understand this. And we also talk about the emotional disconnection that often accompanies loss, especially sudden loss.

01:20
But this isn't just a story of sorrow. Nina also shares how she found a way to channel her grief into something meaningful by creating her podcast, Grief and Light, which has become a beacon of hope for many navigating their own paths through grief. While this conversation is about something sad, we tried to leave it with a general message of hope that grief, while deeply painful, can also lead to unexpected joy and purpose. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Nina Rodriguez.

01:49
I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is the Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:07
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Nina. Hello, Nina. Hello, Matt. Hello, audience. Well, thank you for being here. I tell this to a lot of other people as well. Anytime there's another podcaster on my podcast, I get all like panicky as soon as we start recording. So I don't know if you have the same thing, but I'm like, oh no. I think I'm feeling panicky right now, but you know, you're good. Your energy is good and I'm excited. I've heard your episodes and I'm really excited to get into this conversation. I know we have a lot to talk about.

02:37
We do. And you know what? It's funny because you have a podcast. It's not funny. You have a podcast that's called grief and light. And when I first started the life shift, it was in like a class and I was I was trying to figure out like, OK, what am I going to do for this class assignment? And I was like, I really want to talk about grief. And then I was like, well, that's kind of sad if I talk about grief all the time, even though I wanted to. And I love that you found a way to talk about grief, but also bring in.

03:05
how to move through it and how to find the light in, you know, in the process. I don't think there's an end, but in the process. So thank you for what you're doing and putting into the world. And I know it's based on the story you're gonna tell today, but thank you for what you do. Thank you as well. And thank you for what you do. And I wanna congratulate you on the success of your podcast. We were talking earlier because I know how much effort it takes and how much love we have to pour into each episode and you do it beautifully. Your conversation, the conversations that you're bringing to the world are

03:35
helping so many and I'd listened to quite a few of your episodes actually before this conversation and you could just tell that it really is you coming through in each conversation. You're healing, the people are healing, the audience is healing and it's just benefiting people all around. So thank you for what you do. And I know it takes a lot of endurance. So I see you in that regard as well. I appreciate that. And what you're mentioning, a great journalist, Frank.

04:03
just put out this ear-worthy independent podcast award, and he actually named the Life Shift podcast as the best overall podcast of the year, which is like, as an indie podcaster, that's not what we do these things for. Like you said, we put these stories out into the world, but at the same time, it's nice to see that like a stranger has heard the show and is seeing what we're trying to do, like within the show. So thank you, Frank, if you're listening now.

04:30
It's just such an honor to be part of that list of people. And you should check out Grief in Light. Thank you. Yes. And congratulations on that as well. Thank you. It's very well deserved. Thank you. So let's get into your conversation, because I think I have a lot of questions. Well, I know I will have a lot of questions, because grief is really something that I spent so much of my life trying to move through after pushing it down for so long.

04:57
And so before we get into the details of your pivotal moment, maybe you can just kind of tell us who Nina is in 2024. Like, what's your vibe? What's going on now? So today actually is four years, 10 months since my brother passed. And everything has shifted in my life since then. And I can smile now and get excited about all these things that I'm doing now, the work that I get to do these days. But it wasn't like that. And we'll get into that later.

05:24
But today I am creator and host of the Grief and Light podcast, which originally started as me exploring my own grief, but it has since evolved into a resource for grievers. And I have found, a lot of people ask me, like, how can you work in that space? It must be so sad and draining. I have found the biggest sources of joy within this space. And that's the irony of it, because I feel like grief and joy are, for me at least, inextricably linked.

05:53
I think it's a beautiful space to be in. So 2024 version of me gets to work with people who are navigating difficult moments in their life, gets to share their stories, gets to help guide them through and gets to bring awareness about these topics and connect with wonderful people like you and have these conversations that I love to have that are profound and that are meaningful to me and to a lot of people that.

06:22
get to listen as well. So that's what I'm doing now. That's beautiful. I mean, I think it's...

06:30
It's rare, I think, because for so long in my, at least in my experience in life so far, so many people are afraid of grief and afraid to live in it, move through it, quote unquote, recover from it, you know, like get to another place, another level, another plane, whatever we're talking about here. And I love that you, one, lean into it really hard, but also,

06:59
that people need this service and are willing to accept it. Because I think there was, for so long, people were just like shying away and hiding in the shadows. And now people are seeking this out. And then they have the ability to find someone like you. And then on the flip side, you have the ability probably to process your own stuff while you're also helping other people. So it's beautiful. And I've heard you say that in your episodes before, where you say, you know, each episode helps me heal them. There's a selfish element to it in the nice way of selfish.

07:27
and sense of selfish, and I get to heal as well, as I, with every conversation, with every interaction, and as I move forward on my own journey. Well, what I think is nice about that is just, I think you're proving the value of human connection, whether it's about grief or anything else. There's something when we can connect on a deeper level with someone else, there is almost always some kind of healing element, whether that's just

07:55
immense joy that you felt or you're feeling the sadness with someone else and there's that connection there. So I think at the end of the day, it's really you're just connecting with other humans and you're helping them through the journey that they're going on. So there's a paradox to that, right? We're so connected. Ironically, we're so connected. And a lot of people say this, we're more connected than ever. And yet we're more disconnected. So the more devices that we have, the more accessibility we have to each other.

08:24
where those boundaries lie, those new boundaries lie, has been a little bit confusing for a lot of people. And in trying to protect our private time, I feel like we've disconnected and it's no longer appropriate to reach out to certain people. I don't know, it's just, it's gotten very gray. Let's just say that it's gotten very gray. It's weird. I think things are changing a little bit. I think for the beginning phases of social media and devices and those kinds of things, I think there were a lot.

08:52
a lot more performative than they are now, in a sense of like only the good things are online, only- Curated content, right. Exactly, and I think maybe some people- It's changing. I mean, I do, I just put it all out there because I think it's important for people to see that I don't have good days all the time, and that when I am sad, it's okay, and I will get through it, and I know how to process that, and I wanna share that with people.

09:20
And I'm sure you see this too when you share your story, you hear people say, thank you for saying that because I felt alone in that, or thank you for just acknowledging that. I would never say it out loud, but you made me feel seen. Yes, we're saying the quiet parts out loud that deserve to be voiced. So I hope we can get rid of the gray and just be just like full humans because I think it's important for us. And

09:45
what you're doing on your podcast, what I try to do on this podcast. That's all what we're trying to do is just put it out there in the open because there's a lot more we have in common than we have differences, you know? So. And a lot of it is demystifying the different topics and the hard parts of life that we were often taught to bypass. So now there's a shift, pun intended, there's been a shift in how we handle these conversations and these podcasts have helped demystify the...

10:14
parts that can feel very difficult. And it helps people have the words and relate and open up their own conversations, which I think is beautiful. That's what we're trying. So let's connect with your story. So maybe you can paint the picture of what life was like for you leading up to this moment and go back as far as you need to, to kind of paint your picture. Sure. So it was September, summer of 2019. Let's start there. I was...

10:43
full-time in real estate. So I'm a realtor here in Miami. My husband and I were in business together and we were kicking butt, taking names and growing our business. And I was very much in that, what I call the masculine mindset of just hustle and getting the work done and growing. And this is my five to 10 year plan. And this is how I have everything figured out, if you will. How South Florida of you. Right, the poster child over here. But so we were doing that.

11:13
September, it rolls around September 10th is my brother's birthday. And it was a Wednesday, Tuesday, Wednesday, middle of the week. And you know, I, we had plans for the weekend, we were going to celebrate and I was getting off of work. I was working late. It was like about seven o'clock and he, I called him and I wish him happy birthday and I

11:36
feel bad, something in me feels really bad and just thinks like, gosh, like it's his birthday. I didn't get to see him. He's like, it's like a regular day, like a very uneventful, boring day for him. It feels kind of bad. So I asked my husband, I said, do you mind if we just drive up there for a second? And up there for a second is an hour and a half drive. So it's not that quickly. And to my surprise, my husband said, yeah, no problem. Let's go. Let's go say hi. So that would mean we would get there almost a little before nine o'clock. Like what, you know, literally just going over there to give him a hug.

12:05
But for whatever reason, I just felt that urge to do that. And I didn't question it, thank goodness. We went over there, I called my mom, called my dad and said, hey, let's just go get together and like cut him a cake and make it really simple because I know he's not doing anything today. So we did and we ended up having a randomly nice birthday with him. I remember that it was the Oktoberfest beers were out like the theme and he was drinking that

12:35
You know, we're cheering and we're like celebrating his birthday like nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing that stood out to me looking back on it is that at the time my mother. Started telling the story about his birth, like that was Brandon, because it's not something that we normally talk about. So she's like, oh, and when you were born, this happened and this and that. And we had this. I even filmed it. So I have it on camera. No, right. And, you know, we're just.

13:01
talking about it like normal, then we say goodbye. I drive an hour and a half back home and that was that. So I felt good about that because I said, well, that was nice, you know, like nothing special, but it was actually really nice. The next day, ordinary day once again, he was supposed to go to my grandmother's house to meet my uncle because my uncle was going out of town and my brother was going to take care of the dog for the weekend. The dog is like an 17 year old Dasha. Like, you know, he was, he needed, he was just like this little.

13:30
elderly dog and needed a lot of help and my brother was very good with dogs. So I FaceTime my brother, this was around six o'clock in the afternoon. I FaceTime my brother, he was outside walking towards my grandmother's house and I remember the sunset was, it was like that golden hour glow on his face. And I kid you not, things make sense looking back on them, back on time and what happened in retrospect. But at the time, I remember thinking, he looks so angelic. And that-

13:59
is literally the word that went through my mind because I don't say that word often. That's not a word I use commonly, but his face looks so bright and angelic. That's the word I could describe. So I said, hey, just let me know when you get home. Make sure you get the dog great. Two hours later, I'm home. I'm with my husband. We're talking about our day, like how was your day? How was your day kind of thing. And my husband says,

14:28
there's this guy at work that asks me, how are you doing today every day? And it's very annoying because I just saw you yesterday, like I'm fine dude, like hi, right? And I said, well, don't be so harsh. Like I guarantee you, if you speak with this person, if you sit down with this person, it sounds like this is the type of person that doesn't take a day for granted because they've probably been through something dramatic or something life altering where they don't assume tomorrow and today are going to be the same.

14:59
I kid you not, right as we're having that conversation, my phone rings. And I pick up, my dad says, are you sitting down? And for context, my dad is a bit of an intense person. Hi, dad, sorry. He's a bit of an intense person. And I told him, you know, you really stress me out whenever you call me because it sounds like something's wrong. Like, could you just, let's have a code word or a phrase that if something actually is wrong, you're going to say those words.

15:27
And so we agreed upon, are you sitting down? And so, however, in that moment, because I was wrapped up in the other conversation when he said that, I was like, no, why? And I didn't, it didn't click. And then he said what he said. I still can't say the words because it's just too much. But he said the words that obviously changed everything. And that was about two hours after I had spoken with my brother, so I was like, what do you mean? I literally just saw him.

15:56
on FaceTime, everything changed. And for context, he said that your brother had passed. Correct. Sorry. Yes. Thank you for saying it. I can't say it. It's hard, and I get that. I'm it's.

16:13
Life is so weird. Like, I think you know what I mean by that. It's like everything feels like normal. You're going through your normal stuff and like words that you've heard in different order before in your life are put together in this one sentence from a loved one. And every, you look at things change, everything around you feels different. And I can imagine

16:42
I mean, is that how you, did you understand it or was it like a shock moment for you, I guess is a bigger question. Extreme shock moment. So thank you for that question. So I always say that something in me disconnected in that immediate moment. It was like, you took a plug out of a wall, like you yanked it out of a wall. And something in me was just yanked. That second that I heard those words, I heard the words, I didn't understand them. Got it.

17:09
And I told my dad, you know, I even said something rude to him because I was so mad that he would say something like that. And I don't speak to my father normally like that. But in that moment I did. Because it was kind of like, how dare you say something so awful? Like what's wrong with you? And I was yelling at him, like, that's not funny. How dare you? And then he said, no, this happened. Come home. I need your help. My mom and my brother were extremely close. Like they have...

17:40
a bond, I'm close to my mom, but I would say they were closer. And so my first question when I realized that he was not kidding is, where's mom? Where is mom? And he said, she ran out of the house. I need you to get here as soon as possible. And then I realized, this is real. Like what? And everything changed after that. When you, when you think about that moment and you don't have to answer this, do you, is that something that had ever crossed your mind?

18:10
in your journey, in your family's journey. And the reason I ask that is, you know, like sometimes people have these like, I mean, you kind of said these premonitions of like the angelic thing and, but were those planted intentionally, do you think, or was this like just so out of the blue you can't imagine? So looking back on it, reflecting on it, I think so. I think they were planted intentionally, but as everything was unfolding, I had no clue.

18:40
And for context, my brother struggled with addiction for many years and throughout his life. What's different and strange about this time, a lot of people ask me like, well, you know, didn't you see a comic? No. No, you always think that happens to other people. Like that doesn't happen to us, that happens to other people. And we've fought really, really hard. And when I say we, I don't mean...

19:06
like other people don't fight hard. This is just me talking about my personal story. So we fought very, very hard to help him. And he had many moments of long-term sobriety. And anybody who's familiar with the world that is addiction will understand what I'm saying. It is something so permanent, so long-term, and so cyclical. And it's really take life every day, every second, you know, like walk one day at a time type of philosophy.

19:35
So the reason we were even more hopeful is that he was, the birthday that we celebrated was his 32nd birthday. That whole, he was years sober and healthy and had even gained some weight back and was planning his future. And so we said, oh my gosh, this is it. Like we've done it. We're on the long-term road to recovery and we're good. I was very hopeful. It's almost like the time that we let our guard down or for once. And so

20:05
When we celebrated his birthday, it was September 10th. He passed away September 11th. And that date is a date that everybody recognizes, at least here in America, right? And it has such heaviness to it. So when this all happened, it almost felt like, yeah, this day is really heavy, but not necessarily for the reasons we originally thought. There's so much heaviness around this day.

20:30
But to answer your question, I did not expect it, not once, not ever. I thought we were going, this was going to be a success story, if you will. Yeah. And I don't mean, when I asked that question, I don't mean it in a negative way. I think that now, in my own personal experience, losing my mom to a motorcycle accident, now I think of things differently, like how I could just die today.

20:59
in my car, you know, whereas before that, they're always safe. Like that would never happen. Like, so it's interesting to me how people can, like, I mean, you telling your story about how you saw the light on his face and those kinds of things and looking back, you can kind of see those moments. Like when Mime was about to go on her trip, this was their second time doing like a motorcycle trip to, from Boston to Colorado. And I was eight, so.

21:29
I don't know, she was 32, which is also very interesting. Yeah. And I begged her not to go. And I didn't know why, but I threw a tantrum. And of course, like, you're not gonna listen to an eight-year-old when he, he's just throwing a tantrum, right? But there was something in me, I think, where I kind of like thought this could be something. Yeah. And so I don't know where that came from, and I don't know how it is, and it kind of reminds me of these little,

21:58
little pings that you had where you drove an hour and a half to go see him on his birthday when that's not really like a traditional thing that you guys always did in the middle of the week, you know, like just at nine o'clock at night, you know, like these little things that were like nudging you in a weird way. I can't imagine how thankful you are for those moments. 100%. It's to the point that now if I feel an urge to, if somebody pops into my mind, I will call them.

22:27
If I feel an urge to do something, I will do. I don't question it ever. Yeah, or push it off. Or push it off. It is sacred to me. It has become something sacred. And to go back to your point about the pings, I didn't necessarily, looking back on it, I see it, but there were two people who did have stronger pings, and that was my mother. Oh, really? Because she was so close? Yes. But it happened in a dream. She had this dream.

22:52
where I'll spare the details, but the important part is that she's in this house and my grandmother's there and there's a casket in front of them. And in her dream, she thinks it's her dad, so my grandmother's husband, right? So she's like, oh, mom, I'm so sorry. And then my grandmother turns to her and says, it's not who you think it is. And my mother never made that connection because that was months before my brother passed. But when she looks back on it, she says,

23:18
Oh my gosh, like that was such a warning for me and I didn't see it. And then the day of, the day of that my brother passed, my grandfather, and I'll get to that later, but I was going to say both of them who are still alive, they're still here with us today, which is another thing that has shifted. But anyway, so he called, he was out of town and he called, he says, I'm trying to call your brother. Do you know where he is? And I was like, oh yeah, I just talked to him. He's fine.

23:46
And then my grandfather said, yeah, but he's not answering. And I said, yeah, but he probably has his phone on, so I'm like, not a big deal, I just saw him. He's probably with the dog. And my grandfather was just very pushy, like, no, he's not answering. And looking back on it again, I think something in him was uneasy. Human, our brains are so interesting and the things that they can do. And I...

24:15
haven't made sense of any of it really, but it is, you know, it's interesting to look back on. And the reflection piece, like, I mean, the next part of your journey as you, as your life completely changes from this moment, the benefit is not really the greatest word to use, but the benefit of you being able to reflect on these moments and what that must do for your healing journey.

24:44
is probably pretty profound. So maybe tell us what happened. Tell us how your life changed after that moment. Absolutely. So I emotionally, mentally disconnected. I've heard people refer to that as dissociation at some point. It's when you feel like you're watching your life in a movie over there. Just kind of going through the motions. You're going through the motions. There's the separation between you being you and everything that's playing out in your life.

25:12
And so that's how I felt for a long time. It was very much like a fog. Now I was devastated that the world kept going. I was like, why is the world still spinning? Like mine literally stopped and I'm still expected to show up to work, to take care of the stuff, to plan a funeral. Like what? He was my only sibling too. So it really disrupted the family structure as any loss does. But in this one, it was, you know, we're such a small family. It was, I say we were a four legged table and now we're this.

25:41
wobbly, like three-legged table trying to find our way. How much older were you? Three years. Yeah, three years older. He was my younger brother. So I wanted the world to stop more than anything. I just said, I need to catch my breath. This is too much. And then the pandemic hit a few months later. And it stopped. And the world literally stopped. And I said, ooh, talk about the power of your thoughts, I guess.

26:07
Not that I want that because I know a lot of people suffered their own losses in that time. So I'm not making any light of that aspect of it. I'm just saying, like, interesting how that timing played out. And in that time, I actually welcomed it in the sense that it was the breath that I needed to catch. It was like, okay, we can take a moment to just sit here. A lot of people don't, they like say they want it and then they don't actually want it. I'm sure you've talked to people like that, but. Correct. I'm.

26:35
very much an introvert. I enjoy my alone time so much. And so in that aspect, I was very happy. But I was terrified because COVID, you know, people were saying, everybody's dying and all these things are happening. And it's, you know, horrible. So I said, Oh, no, who else is next? Like who, who else is in your family and people around you? Yeah. And I was like, I don't think I could do another one of these. Like, this is insane. So, you know, those days unfolded, I

27:04
didn't know if my parents were going to make it, if we were going to make it, if somebody was going to be next. I had more questions than I've ever had in my life. And I was still working in real estate in a very different capacity because it was shifting with COVID and everything, lockdowns and weird policies that we had going on. So as that was playing out, I grew less and less tolerance of everyday things, like people complaining about colors and...

27:32
wall colors and carpets and doorknobs and all these things that seem so irrelevant and immaterial and just pointless, to be honest, right? I found it extremely difficult to sustain conversations with people and sort of try to solve what they deem to be problems. And here I am, like, barely surviving over here. So I said, I can't do this, you know, like, I have to.

27:58
I have to find meaning of some sort. I have to find support. I don't even know who I am right now. The version of me who was trying to 10X her business and had a 10-year plan and do all these numbers, crunching things, couldn't care less. She went away. It just didn't make any sense anymore. And shifted your values of some sort too, right? It shifted everything. You see someone you love so much not be there anymore and you're like,

28:28
Why am I doing all these things that aren't filling me with joy? I can, but how do you even find joy when you're in deep despair? Yeah, and it wasn't so much about joy. I didn't even think joy was possible at that point. I just said, I don't want something to happen to my parents. I can't lose another person. And in, you know, feeling all the feelings that come with grief.

28:53
At one point, I felt like something was physically wrong with me. Like one day I was walking in my grandmother's house, and I say that because one, that's where my brother passed away. He passed away in my grandmother's house. And over the holidays, for example, all my family was there. And it sounds strange because if you would have asked me prior to this, like, would we have all gathered in that space where he passed? I would have said, absolutely not. And yet here we were and we didn't want to be anywhere else. It was like we wanted to be in that space where he last...

29:22
you know, spend his last moments, I guess. So there's a lot of this journey that you would think you would react a certain way, and yet when it actually happens, you react a totally different way. There was a lot of that going on. And, you know, navigating it forward and your value system changes. I always say that grief burns everything to the ground. It's very sobering. I live in Florida, so it's like a hurricane that destroys everything. You step outside of your house and you say, now what? Like...

29:51
Where do we go from here? And it changes relationships. It changes the people, not what just like loved one, like married relationships. I'm just saying in general, like friendships, and you see who shows up, you see who cares, you see how they care, and then you kind of redetermine. I think to the parallel, it's really interesting. I've never really talked to someone, I think, that lost someone right before the pandemic. And then like you were really forced to sit.

30:21
with all of that and pro do you look back on that and be thankful for that that quiet time if you will. Yes, very thankful because it shifted the pace I need. Now looking back on it I feel like grief can be an invitation to slow down. But how do we do that in a world that's requiring us to move faster at all times right so be more efficient do it quicker you know move faster. So it was a beautiful pause. And I say it through.

30:50
looking back on my experience, I'm not saying COVID with, you know, the pandemic was beautiful. I'm just saying, right? So for me, personally, it was a beautiful experience in that I got to slow down and I got to think about other things that were not work and I got to think about, you know, how do I support myself? Because it's not that my parents couldn't support me, it's just that they're grieving the loss of their only son and I'm, you know, I don't want to add anything to that. So I got to looking like, what is grief?

31:19
can you die from grief? Because I was walking in, I didn't finish the story earlier, but I was walking in the house and I felt like I was having a heart attack. And I kind of panicked, I held onto the side of the wall and I realized, you know, it started to calm down. So I was like, okay, I'm okay. But it got me thinking, can you die from grief? Can grief kill you? It's really the question that I had. So I started searching and I found Takotsuba cardiomyopathy, which is broken heart syndrome.

31:47
And I don't know if you've heard of it. I'm sure you have, but. I wouldn't be able to say it as well as you did. And it's, you know, in essence, a takotsubo. It's a Japanese octopus trap. And it's in this rounded shape with kind of an open valve. And it's the shape that inside. I'm not a doctor, so I'm doing my best to describe this in non-medical terms. But your heart essentially, in grief, can. It's not something that happens to everybody. But in the.

32:16
rare and extreme cases, it can kind of reshape itself and it doesn't function as properly. And so it could cause some harm. I don't know that you can necessarily, you know, it could cause it's not necessarily lethal or deadly or anything like that, but I know it could cause heart issues for people and health problems. So I said, okay, well, I don't want anything to happen to me. I don't want my parents to go through anything like this again.

32:44
So then I started finding ways of coping with grief, like, okay, so what do I do now? What exercises can I do? When does this go away? How long does this thing last? What is it? And how do other people deal with it? And that's where my curiosity started. I don't think a lot of people do that. And I guess before you go into that, I was wondering, do you think if the pandemic didn't happen, do you think you would have like snapped back and like,

33:11
push the grief aside and just kind of gone headfirst back into like the hustle bustle of South Florida? Or do you think that you would have found your way here knowing you and who you are? I think it would have been a little bit of both. I think I would have initially went into it, which I did. I did go back to work and I started being very snappy with people and I realized, well, that's not nice. Like that's not kind. You should probably should take a break and a breather.

33:38
So I think it forces you to stop at some point. It forces you to stop some things. I'm not saying you have, you know, not everybody has the ability to literally pause their entire life, but it forces you to act, to show up differently. It changes how you show up in the world. It rearranges that. But is this your first time experiencing death close to you? No, I had an uncle pass away when we were kids, unexpectedly as well, but.

34:06
it's different because we just didn't, it's different. Do you think it's different because of your age or do you think it's different because of the relationship or both or? Probably both and the fact that my brother and I were very, very close and shared so much and he was so much of my piece. And with him went the library of knowledge that me and him and I share together and.

34:35
all the memories and who I am in relation to him and the role that I get to be as his sister. So for example, when I went back to work, somebody said, a colleague said, well, now that you're an only child, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was like in the movie, it's like when the audio fades and everything slowed down and I said, what did you just say? And it's the first time that I thought of myself as anything other than his sister

35:05
a sister or... But I hope you didn't own that. I mean, I think that... I didn't, I do not. But in the moment, it shook my, the foundation underneath me and I was like, is this what I am now? You know, am I this only child, if you will? And it really... People say that. People don't know what to say. I mean, if I can give enough grace to some people that haven't experienced grief, it's really hard to kind of figure out there really isn't anything you can say, right?

35:36
Let me know if you need anything. I am here. Everything that you're feeling is okay. Feel what you need to feel. Go through it how you need to go through it. But I was asking those questions about previous grief, younger version of grief, older version connection, because in my own story, losing my mom, I didn't understand it. Like I was eight, like I knew she wasn't coming back, but I didn't understand the weight of it. And so much of...

36:04
the way that I moved through life after that was off the cues of the older people that also didn't know how to deal with grief because it was late 80s, early 90s. And so people weren't really talking about it like we said earlier. And so as a young kid, I thought I just had to pretend everything was fine and you just kind of move through life. But then when I was in my 30s, my grandmother who I was very close with, she ended up getting sick. And I knew, like I felt like I knew how to do it right

36:33
And maybe it was because I failed for so long as a kid to kind of go through that grief. But I was curious of like, it's interesting to me when I meet people nowadays that are my age that have not experienced deep loss and to see how they might go through something like that. But my experiences were totally different and I don't know if it's relationship, I don't know if it's sudden death versus extended.

37:02
watching someone die? I don't know if it was age. I don't know what it is. But curious is, you know, that's why I asked that question. That's where it came from. If anyone's like, that was really rude, Matt. No, no, thank you for that question. And it's very valid in the conversations that I've had with people who have lost a very close loved one at an early age. Because at that from what I understand, and from the conversations that I've had, so what I'm about to say is not like law across the board is just feedback that I've gotten from a lot of people is

37:29
in the young, first of all, you don't have the context or the language in such an early age and even in adults 20 years ago, let's say, we still didn't have these type of open conversations. So, and you tend to grieve the milestones and it shows up differently throughout different points of your life. So that's what I've heard, that it just shifts and evolves and you kind of regrieve certain points of your life is what I've heard people say.

37:58
The loss that we experienced when we were kids was my uncle. And yes, that was very painful. It was sad. But my dad had this beautiful way of framing it. So he took two cups. One was a solid cup and one was a see-through cup. And he took some water and he put the water in the solid cup. And then he says, this is your uncle and the water is his spirit. And then he poured the water into the transparent cup. And then he says, now you don't see the cup. So it's.

38:26
You don't see him anymore, but his spirit still lives on. And so that was a very simple and effective way to communicate this concept. And we didn't question it. It was like, well, dad said he lives on, so obviously he's living on somewhere. We just can't see him, like he said. So it was almost like a beautiful way of phrasing it. And he said it in a way that was not scary or intimidating. It was very matter of fact, like, no, this is just what it is now. So.

38:55
I didn't, now that I think about it, I don't think I saw my dad grieve. And that's not to say he didn't, because when I revisited that conversation after my brother passed, I said, you know, how long did it take you? He's like about three years. And I said, what? I don't remember that. You know, like, I don't remember that part of our lives. And it's not that it didn't happen. He was probably very private about it. Did you think of that example?

39:22
when your brother died of the cups at all? Did any of that help you or thinking back to that? Yes, but it's so close that cup or no cup is just like, oh, I don't, you know, it just sucks. The whole situation sucks. It kind of gives you, it gives you like this weird questioning of everything. Like questioning of faith if you have that. It gives you questioning of like, well, especially if you have that. Cause then you're like, well, this doesn't make any sense.

39:50
Because, you know, and then you have questioning of like, who am I without? Like, what does my life look like now? I've always pictured it with him through the rest of my life kind of thing. And so, yeah, it makes you really think. And I think something like that example that your father gave you as kids would be a lot harder to just accept at face value as an adult.

40:17
In my opinion. No, 100%. It would be nice to accept that, but it's a lot harder. It shakes your foundation. One point about faith, so when we were, my family is mostly Catholic, and when we were moving through, they did all the Catholic rituals, which had a beautiful purpose in giving us something to do together. The prayer aspect of it was very beautiful, and just taking the time to do this together as a family was very beautiful.

40:44
It didn't give me any answers, if anything, it gave me more questions. And grief took me on this journey of, I literally saw you yesterday. Where did you go? Your clothes are bright next to me. Where did you go? Like, what is happening? Where, you know, I can't just be here today, gone the next second. And I know all the religious explanations and the spiritual explanations, but that didn't suffice. It was, I need clear answers.

41:09
I need the science part right now. I need the science part yesterday, please. Thank you. So in that journey, I searched and YouTube algorithm does its thing. And I started finding NDEs, near-death experiences. And at first, I heard them and I was like, oh my god, these people are insane. They've lost their mind. But the more I listened, the more I saw commonalities. And I said, what if there's some truth to what they're saying? Just listen, because they have an answer you haven't heard before. So just listen.

41:39
And I started listening and listening and listening. And probably for three years, I just listened to stories. And I was like, I don't know if they're real. I don't know if they're telling the truth, but there's something really reassuring about what they're saying. And I'll hang on to that. And I'll let that soothe my soul, if nothing more, it's story time. You know, like I just sit back and listen to these stories. And yet that opened me up to being...

42:07
Being open, you know, being open to other people's beliefs, being open to other people's processing of grief, being open to the possibility of maybe they are telling the truth. Not labeling things and not shitting on myself. Like, I shouldn't believe in this, or I shouldn't be doing, no, it was just, tell me, tell me more. Were you always inquisitive in that way, and always a researcher, and always like looking for more information? Always, yeah. Because I think that might have helped.

42:37
in your grief journey because I venture to say, and maybe you know better because you talk to a lot of people that are actively going through the process of grief, I don't know of a lot of people that sought out, how do I grieve and find ways to do it? And I don't know that there is a way necessarily. We all have to find our own path, but there are some best practices, if we want to call them that, that we can move through.

43:06
But I bet the fact that you were always inquisitive and open to seeing what other people do or have done probably helped you a lot. Do you think it did? 100%. I, to this day, I always say lead with curiosity. So even today, I had somebody message me and ask, is it possible to feel joy after loss? That was her question. And she says, I am trying and I cannot figure it out. How did you do it?

43:32
And I said, you know, all the, I'm so sorry, this and that. But in the conversation, it really made me dig deep for an answer. And I said, absolutely joy is possible. Joy is defined differently than it is before he died. It has a different undertone. And there's always for me, there's always an undertone of sadness. Whenever I think of him, I, the, this word came into my mind. It's felicitresa. So in Spanish, felicidad is happiness, joy, and tristeza is sadness.

44:01
And I said, it's a compound word, it's happy sad. And I said, that's joy to me now, it's happy sad. Because happy moments trigger tears of longing and sad moments, and then sometimes sad moments trigger laughter. And now they're just inextricably linked in my reality now. And so I say, it looks different, it feels different, but it is 100% possible. And you get there, at least I got there.

44:29
through leaning into my curiosity. And so if my heart is asking questions, how do I do it? It's because it's already capable of doing it, number one, and it's already trying to figure it out. So you say, I put my hand here on my chest and my heart, and I say, thank you for trying. We don't need all the answers right now. We can, the steps forward are so tiny, sometimes that we miss them.

44:59
Sometimes they're not even forward. Sometimes they're sideways, sometimes they're backwards. Sometimes it's a dance and you're just twirling in one place. But there's a recognition, I encourage people to have a recognition of that curiosity that arises, of that desire to want to know how, because the answer will come. It's just, sometimes it doesn't look like what you thought it would look like. When in your grief journey, did you start to feel

45:30
more like a full human again or like a full heart beating and like living for, you know, not feeling like disconnected, disassociated kind of feeling. How long in your journey did that take? About three and a half years. In the interim, what was like a regular time period for you? What did that look like? Like how do you live and exist and move through that grief actively, but not feel like a full person yet?

45:59
A lot of grace, I think. And so what does that mean? A girlfriend of mine, her mother had passed away 10 months prior to when my brother passed away. And I called her desperately and I said, how long does this last? Tell me this goes away, please. How did you do it? She said, oh honey, you called me. I'm at the grocery store. I'm at the baking aisle and I have a baking sheet in my hand and I was just done crying because it reminded me of my mom.

46:27
And now I have kids and grandma will never make them cookies. And, you know, it reminds me that we will never have this mom daughter moment and she will never see this part of my life. And this is grief. And you need to understand that it's going to show up like this over time, but it will change. And so I said, you know, I said, thank you so much. I hung up and I was like, you're crazy. I'm not doing 10 months of this. I love you. But no, we're not doing this. Show me the answer. Show me the answers. Thank you for that answer. That's one. So.

46:56
I laugh now because I say, wow, I was so naive. It lasted three and a half years. Or were you hopeful? Like in a weird way, you were hopeful that you could get through it quicker because it was so painful. I was, yes, I was, I guess, unrealistically hopeful that I could get through it quicker, yeah.

47:17
I will say this, and people will probably laugh at me, but grieving my mom took me 20 plus years, and I didn't really start to grieve her until I gave myself permission to feel all the things and be okay that I was not okay. And then I got through it. It's different because I don't really remember my mom. So it's more like this morning of the f—

47:44
like you described, this figment of, or this, the idea, the milestones missed, those kind of things. But when my grandmother died, I felt like I approached it in the best way I could have. If I could give someone a map on how to approach losing someone and then the aftermath, I felt like I could do it, like, because it just felt so right. I had the final conversation with her. I said everything that needed to be said. I sat with her for her last 96 hours in the hospice house.

48:13
just doing whatever she needed of me. She wasn't really cognizant of my presence, but maybe she was. But after she died, I was sad, I was very sad. But I felt like my grief period was like tiny. And I think it was because I was able to do all the things that I didn't get to do when my mom died. And I honored myself. And I think that was so.

48:42
looking back on it. And so I say people might laugh, because I really felt like my grief period after my grandmother died was short until like months. Whereas the people around me, like my family, still will be like sad. I don't necessarily get sad anymore, because I can remember that full cup, like your dad's example. You know, like I can remember that full cup and celebrate all those moments. And so, you know, it's...

49:11
I think it's nice to, when you're grieving, to have the hope that you can get through, and like, no, I'm gonna get through. And so I don't know that it's, I mean, I guess it is naive because you didn't know better, but at the same time, I think there's some hope in thinking you can do it quick. Yes, and what a blessing that you have that opportunity. That's wonderful. I'm so thankful. Yes, and I agree. I, you know, part of the conversations and the intention with my podcast is that I want to give people hope.

49:41
my that is part of the purpose. And I'm talking when I speak this way, I was tuning into the version of me that was going through that years ago, five, almost five years ago. And that version of me had no idea. And she, you know, there was so many things she didn't see coming. And if I were to, you know, phrase it differently, like, what would you do? That's a whole different conversation with the tools that I have now, right? Yeah.

50:07
there's still an element, I want to say there is an element of, you know, sudden loss versus expected loss. And for the longest time, I wondered, would it have been better if I had gotten to say goodbye? Right? Because that's, it's one of those like the worst goodbye is the one you didn't get to say, right? Yeah. And the answer to that is, it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, the amount of people that actually get that, that beautiful

50:36
described is so rare, it's so few. It's rarely the way we think it's going to go. And when I look back on the last year with my brother, there was this memory that I have, us listening to music, we were listening to the Cranberries, which, you know, 90s. 90s, yep. But we were listening and all of a sudden he's like, oh, you remember this other song and this other song. And I remember I had to go, we had to leave. And I told my husband,

51:05
a few more minutes and he's like, hey, I'll take your time. And my brother was just on this role of like, you remember this song and this song and this song. And we ended up spending four hours talking about songs and each song had a memory tied to it of our lives together. At that time I was like, oh, that was nice. Looking back on it, that was my goodbye. I just didn't know that at the time. Yeah. But.

51:29
With sudden loss, a lot of times it takes the shock factor, extends and prolongs for many people. This is not for everybody, but for many people, it extends and prolongs the grief process and the acceptance process. And because of that, there's a little bit of a lag time to get to a place of, whew, I got this, we can move forward in life. Somebody said sudden loss or expected loss, it doesn't matter, they all lead to the same ocean of grief.

51:58
And it's just how you get there. Now, when you have tools, and this is why we work with people and we have these conversations, when you have tools, nothing really prepares you for the moment or the call, but you can be empowered to have some information where you're not just grasping at the near and you're not feeling that sense of hopelessness and feeling so lost. There's some sort of guidance, there's some sort of path forward. And I think that's where

52:27
all of these conversations and the one-on-one sessions help. Yeah, no, I think, I mean, you're using your journey as a tool belt, I guess, to help other people and kind of help them figure out what their tool belt looks like and which ones they wanna bring with them. I think that's, it's admirable. I'd...

52:49
don't know that I could, I mean, like you started this out, like people ask you like, oh, that's so heavy. But I, you know, like there's the hope element that comes to it. Like if I can help you find the tools that work for you, there's hope, you know, like you can get through this. And also in your own podcast, like how many, if you think back on all the interviews, how many of them have elements of grief to them, to the pivot? Yeah, yeah. I mean, those are the ones I connect with the most. So those are the ones I remember the most, but you know, some people have some really

53:20
light inside moments. Which is beautiful too. I know, I don't understand. No, it's good for them. We're all on our own journey and we're all in our own life path and everything. But it was at the three and a half year mark where I started to pivot. So the big life pivot, big shock was when my brother passed. But at the three and a half year mark was when I intentionally said, okay, like I want to shed what no longer serves me and I want to walk in an aligned path. And that's when the podcast was. What triggered that? Was it just the idea of the podcast or?

53:50
No. So, you know, for siblings, especially adult siblings, there's very little support. There's very little information available. Somebody said to me, a guest said to me, there's less literature on sibling loss than there is on pet loss. And so there's a lack of information and resources, particularly for adult siblings and younger siblings. I don't want to, you know, the kids are very important, but usually like the emphasis tends to be on loss for younger kids. So...

54:17
When I was looking for information, it was so, we did not find any. And I said, how is this not being talked about? This is so important. Siblings are called the forgotten mourners because it's always, how's your parents? Nobody asks, I can count on one hand, and my husband can testify to this. I can count on one hand, the amount of people that in five years have asked how I am doing. Nobody ever asks, how are you doing? Well, even you asked how your mom was doing.

54:46
That was my main concern and my dad as well. So I said, there needs to be room for us at the table here as well, and we need to have these conversations. And I felt increasingly disconnected from the real estate world. My head was not in there. And I said, I'm no good to them. I'm no good to me. So something's got to give. And I started working with a career coach who I thought was going to help me revamp my resume. And she ended up revamping my life and my soul and my spirit. She's wonderful.

55:16
Got more than you paid for. Way more than, all my money's worth and then some. And she helped me align with the work of grief. I didn't even know this was a thing. I didn't know I could be in this space. I didn't even know, I didn't know this was a thing. It wasn't a thing for a long time. I don't even think it is a thing still. It's like becoming a thing. And I met this beautiful network of people in the grief space doing similar work, creating spaces for conversations, demystifying the whole.

55:43
spectrum of what is grief and how do we move through it and giving people the tools and words and spaces to exist. And that's why I say now it's such a beautiful, hopeful and energizing space to be in despite the fact that there's so much pain because grief wants to be witnessed. It wants to be expressed. It is something that evolves as we evolve. And in that, it could be such an alchemizing.

56:12
process if you allow it to be. Now, the caveat, because it's such a nuance thing, you don't have to make meaning if you don't want to. You don't have to have this grandiose outcome if you don't want to. The example I use is my mother. I have invited her to the podcast a bunch of times and she says, I don't want to talk about it publicly. I don't want to make meaning out of my son's death and I don't feel like starting a foundation and creating all the stuff, at least not today. And I say, and that's perfectly okay.

56:41
that is so valid too. So there's this, a lot of people impose on her like, you should do this and you should do that and you should start a scholarship. And she says, I don't want to, I just want to grieve my son. And so it's entirely personal, but if you do want to go in that direction, there is a space in a community ready to talk about it and be with it. I think that's important for people to have that awareness. I think it's also really powerful.

57:08
that your mom feels strong enough to tell people no. You know, and like that's just not, because I bet the people that are saying that are just uncomfortable and they don't really know what to say and so they're just like suggesting like whatever they saw on TV or you know, like whatever they see other people do. So like good on your mom for just like standing in it and saying, no, I'm good. I'm gonna do it the way I need to do it.

57:32
Exactly. Because she does do it. She spends time with him in his memory and she does her craft and that's her time with him. But that's her process. And I wish people would honor everybody's process a little bit more. A lot more. Yeah. Well, I think that you're just opening that door for people to see because I think the more it's like any anything else we the more we put it out in the light, people are going to see it. Then they can think about it. Then they can explore it like you did with the near-death experience things you like.

58:01
maybe that was the first time you had seen it, and then you watched a bunch of videos, and then at first you were like, this is a little wacky, but now everyone's saying the same thing. And so the more you got exposure to it, you're like, cool, if that's working for them, and that's how they want to express that, or think about that experience, who am I? I could do it however I want, and I think grief is super important, and I think it's talked about more, but it's not talked about enough, and guess what?

58:28
we're all going to experience it at some point in our lives because we don't all live forever and I don't really want to. It's one thing we have in common, yes. It's such a universal experience and that's part of why it puzzled me that it wasn't more talked about. If you were to ask your husband the difference between five years ago, Nina, and you now, what would he say? I think there's parts of me he misses. I was a lot more carefree and it was a lot more, things didn't feel as heavy.

58:58
There's the heaviness to me now. And I also feel that that's because my brother brought a lot of joy and laughter and lightness to life. And I feel like that also left. But at the same time, he sees me more at peace in a weird way and in my elements and speaking and walking in my truth. And I think he values that as well. So he's been wonderful. I know that it could take a toll on couples and marriages and relationships. He's

59:26
been wonderful throughout this whole experience and learned a lot as well. And, you know, now he could probably have his own podcast about that. 100%. I don't think he will. But he now understands why that co-worker was asking, how are you doing today? Yeah. No, I think that's another element that people should think about. Of like, maybe they aren't seeking out how to go through grief, but maybe they need to support someone.

59:53
that is grieving and like listening to stories on your podcast and listening to other people kind of go through it and talk about what they needed at the time is probably really valuable because I think there's a lot more people that are in the support role than there are people that are actively grieving, if you will. Definitely. And there's, you know, grief, what I call big G grief is related to somebody's passing, little G grief, which is

01:00:19
Everyday grief. You know, sometimes we grieve our identity or what could have been, or a loss of a relationship, or things that are not necessarily a death, a physical death, but we all go through something. You know, if you look deep enough, there's something there. I don't want to be the person that says like, everybody's grieving, but there is an element of we are human having a, you know, human experience, and therefore you are going to experience loss, change, difficulties, challenges, and all of that has an element of grief. And...

01:00:48
understanding how to move through that is huge. So it's important. If you could go back to the Nina that just hung up the phone after talking to your dad, knowing what you know now, because it's been a little bit, hasn't been a long time, but it's been a little bit, is there anything you would want to say to her that might help her in that moment? You know, I think about that question a lot. And I think whatever I would have said, I don't think that version of me would have believed. I would have been there, I would have hugged her.

01:01:18
and held her and said, maybe nothing just been with her. They say the best therapist is a four-legged pet, like cats and dogs, and that's no diss to therapists because you're essential in this work. And I actually learned that from a therapist. But the reason for that is that they are mere presence. Pets are presence fully in the moment. They're not necessarily, to our knowledge, thinking about the past or the present. They are here.

01:01:46
and they are in tune with our emotions and our beingness. And that is more than anything, oftentimes what grievers need is just that, I'm here sitting in this with you. I'm not trying to fix you. I'm not trying to change the unchangeable, fix the unfixable, I am here with you. And I think ultimately more than saying anything to her, I would have just held her. Well, I will say that a great-

01:02:12
percentage of the people that I've talked to on this podcast when I asked that question said There's nothing I could have said I would just give them a hug and it's true. I know we said this earlier There's really not anything you can say to someone that is in that space at that moment Beyond I'm here and that hug is I'm here We don't have to say anything. We can look at each other. We don't have to look at each other I'm just here and I would probably say the same thing to

01:02:40
the eight-year-old version of me, you know, that his dad sat him down and told him, and he didn't know what to do, but I think a hug would have made him feel safe, and I think that's what we need, is just like grounding and safeness. So I'm sorry that you had to go through this. Thank you. But what I think is beautiful is that you've taken this horrible experience that you've gone through, you've gone on your journey, you've found...

01:03:07
this new version of yourself, and now you're helping other people because of it. So I think your brother would probably be pretty proud of that. Thank you so much. And I say grief has taught me that it's not this or that, it's this and that. It throws you in the world of living in the and. And this is how I get to be his sister. This is how I get to live.

01:03:30
authentically in my truth, and this is how I get to make a difference. So it's an honor to be in this space. It's an honor to work with people. It's an honor to share these stories and to meet with people like you and have these beautiful conversations. Well, speaking of that, to meet more people, is there like if anyone's listening and wants to connect with you, like what's the best way we'll give them the link to your podcast and stuff, but tell us like the best way to get in your orbit.

01:03:54
Definitely Instagram is where I'm most active at Grief and Light. All my social media handles, YouTube, the channel, website, everything is Grief and Light. So at Grief and Light, griefandlight.com. I usually respond rather quickly, as quickly as I possibly can, without getting overwhelmed. So that's the best way to reach me. And the podcast is available on all platforms, including YouTube now, which is something I started recently. Yeah, that's a whole other journey. But good luck with that.

01:04:21
I will put all the links in the show notes. So if anyone listening now, you want to connect easily, just go to the show notes, click it. You can go wherever you need to go. If for some reason you want to reach out to Nina and tell her a little bit of your story or you resonated with a part of her story, I'm sure she'd be happy to hear from you. And maybe you know someone in your life that's kind of going through it. And maybe something that we talked about in this conversation you think they might want to hear.

01:04:49
We'd love it if you share this episode with them and maybe just by hearing it, they'll feel less alone or they'll feel inspired to look at something or reach out to one of us. We'd love to talk to others about this. So thank you for telling your story in this way. I know we went in corners that maybe we don't usually go in. So thank you for allowing me to ask the questions that I have. Thank you for providing the space for your questions and for the beautiful, beautiful work you do. Thank you, Matt. Well, I appreciate you.

01:05:16
Everyone listening, I appreciate you as well. If you have a moment, maybe a little rating and review on Apple podcasts would be great for both of our podcasts. And with that, I'm gonna say goodbye and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Nina. Thank you, Matt.