From Exclusion to Inclusion: Losing and Regaining Faith | Tim Villegas

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I was like, wait a minute, I had never connected the two. I had never thought that me opening my heart and my mind to inclusion and acceptance would include people who had different identities like gender or sexual identity. I was not expecting that. I was very much taught that people who had different.

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gender and sexual identities, that they were evil. That they wanted to hurt me. That I should stay away. On this week's episode, I speak with my new friend, Tim Villegas, and Tim is a well-known podcaster, in my opinion. And I've been listening to some of his podcasts now for a little bit. And when he reached out, saying that he'd like to come on the show and share his story.

00:58
of losing and then regaining his religion. I was so honored that he would want to come on the show and share this journey. And so, as you probably know, if you've listened to any of my other episodes where I speak to someone about religion, I had a lot of questions because I'm not someone that is very spiritual or connected to any particular religion.

01:26
And so it was really interesting to hear Tim's story about how he grew up in this religious family and community. And as he started to explore the world and the people around him and start working in areas in which there were more diverse communities, whether that's related to gender identities or sexual identities, wherever it kind of fell.

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he started to question where he was in his religion. And I thought that his pivotal moment, which it took a little bit to get to, it's kind of towards the middle of the episode because there's so much backstory and really bringing him to this pivotal moment in which he questioned what did he actually believe in and how could he create something that was just as meaningful, but also included all of the people around him.

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So I'm super honored that he came onto the show and that he let me ask him the questions that maybe on the surface don't sound great because I was questioning certain areas, but I really appreciate it. And I think it's so valuable. I think there's a lot of people that will resonate with Tim's story and how he really questioned things, but then found his own version of what he wanted to believe, what he felt was right, and aligned that with what he grew up with.

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and still bringing in aspects of all of those areas. So I'm just so thankful and I hope you enjoy this particular episode and connect with what Tim has to share. Before I get into the episode, I just wanna shout out pretty much all of my Patreon members. You know, as an indie podcast, our Patreon is kind of the place where I can gain some support. If you hear these ads in some of the episodes, you hear beginning, middle, and end. I've been doing that for like 15 months now and I still haven't met the...

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threshold for the payout. So as an indie podcaster, this Patreon community is so important. So thank you to the following people for just being a part of it. Gail N. Jonathan B. Eddie D. Nicholas B. Genevieve D. Brian H. Olivia. Wiley Davis. Bridget D. John Kelly. Pamela T. Trapper. Shane. Natisha.

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Chris, Noelani, Heather, Mickey, Alexis, Marissa, Jason, Stephanie, Kathy, Emily, Brian D, Rebecca, Tracy and Sari. Holy cow. Thank you so much. If you want to be part of the Patreon community, just head over to patreon.com forward slash the life shift podcast and you can see all the different tiers for bonus episodes, early release episodes.

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And every time five people join the Patreon, I do a t-shirt giveaway with one of the designs that I've made for the show. So thank you so much. If you can't do any direct support, if you share an episode with a friend, that means just as much. So thank you so much for this journey. I am so grateful. And I'm also so grateful that Tim Villegas chose me to come on this show and share his story with me. So without further ado, please enjoy my episode with Tim Villegas.

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I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is the Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

05:08
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here and I have been talking to Tim for a while now, but you guys are just hearing the beginning of it. Hey, Tim. Hey, Matt. Thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast. I know it's been a while in the making. And I know you went back and forth a little bit about it as well. But I'm really stoked to talk about this conversation today. Me too. I, you know, I love talking about podcasting. I love talking about inclusive education inclusion.

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you know, K-12 stuff, but I don't often get to tell my story, especially around what we're going to talk about. So yeah, you know, and I always look at these conversations as stuff I wish people were talking about, like just more openly in front of other people, you know, because it would be so great to not that I want to just like eavesdrop on people's conversations, but to overhear people having really

06:07
deep, real conversations about their lives and not so much. I feel like we get wrapped up in the performative aspect. And I don't know if that's generational. I don't know if that's society, but it's always just like, we only talk about the promotions. We only talk about the really great things or the celebrations. But you know what, a lot of our lives, we have a lot more bumps that we could talk about that I think a lot of us would relate to. Yeah, yeah. You know, what you said reminds me,

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You know, I started like putting stuff out on social media and writing early, I think was 2010, 2011. And I was never a person to put like everything out there, you know, like some people, I don't know if it's just easier for them. But it's never been easy for me to talk so personally about.

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stuff. Welcome to my life. So yeah, yeah, it's part of my healing journey. And you know what I looked, I thought about the other day, I really, I don't know if overshare is is the right word on social, I just like try to share what's really real and what's happening at that moment. And what I find is that once I post it, I'm now accountable for it. So it's it's actually happening.

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I'm actually feeling this way. And then it allows me, I think, to start processing it properly. Whereas old me that didn't share this, it kind of just stayed in my head and everything seems worse in your head, I think, until you get it out like in words. But I put it out there and then I hear from people being like, oh my God, I'm going through the same thing today. Or thank you for putting there. I didn't really even think about that. But yes, this is how I'm feeling. So it's almost like, well, yay.

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You know, like, here's my really crappy moment that I'm sharing with you, but I'm glad that it made you feel less alone. So that's why I do it. But I totally get your perspective as well. Well, I think that's why I'm really excited about this conversation because I've really only had this conversation with a few people, but this is my story of losing and regaining my faith, you know? And so

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That's just not something I've been able to put into words, like written out, but it's been something that I've been able to communicate. And hopefully this is kind of a way for other people to hopefully relate. I think it's really important, especially around the idea of religion and faith and organized religion versus spirituality. And I think a lot of people are on that journey.

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But I also think, and this might also be generational in society, that people that are very entrenched in a particular religion, sometimes there are a lot of blinders that are part of that. Because that's just the community that they're in. That's just how people talk about certain things. And I know a little bit of what you wanted to share. But I also ask, don't tell me too much, because I love for that to unfold. Before we get into that, I just want to say thank you for one of your podcasts.

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which I entered a little contest and now I'm recording on something that I want. So thank you for the trailer park podcast. Yeah. The trailer park podcast, the podcast trailer park podcast podcast. Ariel's much better at saying that. It's it was fantastic. And I, and I love this. So anyone listening this for, it's almost like a, like a

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podcasters can nerd out by listening to this because it's just like you and your co-host Ariel kind of listening to podcast trailers and analyzing them and saying, you know, what you like about them, what you don't like about them, hearing from the actual people that created them. And so for listeners, I entered a contest that they had at the end of every episode for their first season and I happened to win. So now I'm using some of the equipment that you guys. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm so glad you did. Gotta follow those call to actions.

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That's right. Exactly. Well, I appreciate that. And so let's just jump into your story. I think it would be helpful maybe for me and for the listeners if you could kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to where the shift in you happened. Sure. Well, let's just say that I typically say I grew up in the church. So my family was a little bit of a

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We're churchgoers. We went to a church. I grew up in the St. Gabriel Valley. So if anyone knows that in California, so if anyone knows where that is, it's like Arcadia, Pasadena area of Los Angeles County. So, and I'm, I'm repping the Dodgers right now. I've got my Dodgers cap on right now. I have really strong roots to that area, although I live in near the Atlanta area now, so we're very.

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strong, strongly religious family, evangelical Christian, I would say. I always remember going to church. It was just part of what we did. And we also served there. So, you know, it'd be my mom and my dad and we'd go on Sunday mornings. And then, you know, they would, we would stick around. So we would stick around because they were serving in classes. And, so it was just part of my life. And I actually had a really great experience there.

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And it wasn't until probably middle school to high school that I just started questioning some of the things, like just those big questions like, is this really a thing? Is this real? Is this who I want to be? And also learning about other cultures and learning about other religions. It was just, it was constantly on my mind. But up until that point, up until

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you know, high school and early college, you know, I read the Bible all the time. I studied it. I went to Bible, you know, I, I read books. My dad actually had a like huge library of theological books and like, what do you call them? Commentaries. So like, I would, you know, pull out a commentary on the book of John, like the gospel of John. And I would like,

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read it and I'd underline and stuff. So I was like very much into it and I was also part of the like leadership in my youth group in middle school and high school. So none of this was like out of obligation but rather like this was you were you were into this. Oh yeah I was into it. Okay and something that we uh like kind of a term we would use is like on fire. Like I was definitely on fire for God. I was on fire for Jesus. You know I would go I was like

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I would like, you know, evangelize, you know, like that's the whole, that's the whole thing. You go to church and like I also would rededicate my life to God. So I don't know if you, I don't know if this concept is familiar, but you know, at the end of a church service, a pastor or whoever is speaking will sometimes give an altar call, you know. So based on the message, you know, talking about.

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you know, repentance or sin. And then the pastor would say, you know, if you are feeling a certain way about yourself, you know, Jesus can save you from that. And you don't have to live with that anymore. You can be free, you know? And so that always sounded really great to me. And so free pants. So I would constantly go up and like, accept that.

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that call, I would answer the call. Sometimes it was because I was feeling really guilty. So like, especially kid, because I was a kid and I did things, you know, like we all do things. We yeah, you did and you thought and you, you know, all these things that you knew you weren't supposed to do, but you did them anyway. I felt like I had to keep getting forgiveness and keep coming back to that. So.

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That was kind of my understanding of it. And it's interesting what you said about like out of obligation, like me studying out of obligation. I don't think that I don't think I felt obligated, but I felt like if I knew enough about the Bible or if I knew enough about like how it all worked that

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I could protect myself from falling into bad habits or help other people. It really was out of this, I just want to be a better person. I want to help other people be better people. It's the whole thing. You see people and if you have a particular worldview, it's like they are lost.

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And I have an answer to them being lost. And why wouldn't I want them to be free or live better? Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. And the question really came from, there's a lot of people, myself included, growing up, church was just part of what you did on Sundays, for a lot of us. And so for a lot of us, it was an obligation. It wasn't something like,

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we actively sought out. And so that's kind of where that question came from. Not so much any kind of insults or anything like that. But it's just really curious to me, because you were born into this, right? You were born into a family that was already doing this? Yeah, so both my parents went to church, you know, growing up. I think they, at one point, either of them went to Catholic church, which is a little bit different.

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with like mass and stuff like that. A lot of sitting and kneeling and standing and kneeling. Exactly, and I never did that. It was a commit, my family is pretty committed to going to church and also like holding Bible studies like in our house. So like Wednesday or Thursday nights, couples would come over. You know what's really interesting, Matt, is that I didn't have any brothers and sisters until I was 13.

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It was just, you know, me and my parents. And so for a lot of times I'd be like 10, 11 years old. And I'd be sitting in these Bible studies with adults, having a very, you know, mature conversations about the Bible. And it just, it felt like I was doing something really important, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And you probably felt like, oh, all these adults are doing this and I respect, or quote unquote respect these people around me.

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So if I continue to do this, then I will be them. I feel like there's this natural, like, I get it. It all makes sense to me the way you explain it. It's just also not my experience. Right. So I get to high school and I am in something called a basically a small group for young men.

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in the high school group, I went to a pretty large church in Pasadena. And so because there were so many kids, you had to kind of split them up. You know, so like on Sundays you would go and it'd be like hundreds of kids and we'd all be, you know, you know, worshiping and learning about God and the Bible and stuff like that. And then during the week, instead of everyone getting together, the groups are split by region.

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So I lived in the East region, so I would go to the East group, and there was like leaders for that group. And the one of those leaders for my group was Rob Bell. So I don't know if you know Rob Bell, but Rob Bell is a podcaster, he's an author, he pastored a church in Michigan, but at the time he was going to school at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena.

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And so I'm not exactly I don't know how old Rob Bell is at this point, but he was young. His eternal is his he was married. He's still married to the same person and he led our small group. So I had a number of guys that it was split up by by gender in the smaller, smaller groups where we would like, you know, meet every so often. And they could be.

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six, seven, eight, or about eight of us. And that person would kind of lead us through just learning more aspects of the Bible. Rob Bell was going to seminary, and I believe he was studying the Old Testament. And so one of the things I remember, and this will make sense later when we talk about my pivotal moment, but he would always make things like if you read the Old Testament, it's pretty

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dry and sometimes incomprehensible because it's just written in a way that's like, I don't understand this. There's a lot of ancient, you know, context here that I don't have, and I don't understand it. And he would always make it so that we could understand it. And we, I just always appreciated that. And it also wasn't just like, well, the Bible says this, so therefore you must do this. It was more like, here's what the Bible says. And here's how to understand.

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and maybe apply it to your life. So I always appreciated that. So anyways, that was kind of a that was kind of a blip, but an important blip for me because it started me down the road on thinking about the Bible differently. You know, I was always taught that the Bible was, I remember this, it sticks with me today, that the Bible is the basic instructions before leaving Earth. Someone

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You think about think about the words right and think about the.

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the worldview that you have to have to have that because your focus is not on this world. Your focus is on another place. Your focus is, you know, like there's this saying in like a Christian speak about being not of this world. You know, it's like this isn't my residence. My residence is in, you know, heaven or another place with God.

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and like eternity and stuff like that. That was what I was always, that's how I always kind of imagined it and pictured it. And I completely forgot, Matt, that not only did I go to church and was very steeped in this, but I also went to Christian school. So from kindergarten through, I like to say college because I went to a Christian liberal arts college. I was there, like we prayed in class and there was chapel and...

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all of our teachers were, you know, were Christian. And it was just very much steeped in this world. It's hard to have, well, I imagine it's hard to have a very quote unquote worldview when you're in and around people that are all kind of living, breathing, the same things, right? Did you find that? Is that why you started questioning things? Well, I think it wasn't until, you know, probably late high school.

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when I forget the name of the book now, but one of our classes in high school was like, I'm going to get this wrong. It was like a Christian living type of study where you had a book and the book basically laid out a worldview for you. It like honestly, it does not matter what the book is because I don't want anyone to like read it. Don't find it. Exactly. Don't find it. It's

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Because it basically was like this is how you interpret the world based on the Bible. So you have the Bible and then you have this book that kind of interpreted the Bible. It's like a guidebook. Gave you a worldview because the idea was you're going to go off to college and who knows what kind of you're going to learn in college. And I went to a Christian school.

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Christian college. But if you went to one of those state universities or one of those ultra liberal colleges somewhere, I don't know where, then you're going to learn all this stuff and it's not going to line up. It doesn't seem like that book would be out of... It wouldn't be weird if you're in that situation. It feels like that book would just be part for the course, if you will. It wasn't weird.

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Right, exactly. But someone like me would be like, what? You know, because I don't know. That wasn't how I was. I was raised in always in a public school and having a lot of different diverse experiences. And so. Right. Yeah. But I can see how that if that's your day in, day out, you're only spending time with these people during school. And then you're seeing them in your small groups. And then you're going to church and you're seeing them again. You're not exposed to a lot of the.

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the demons out there that that they're trying to keep you from. Right. It's like, OK. Yeah. And did you I mean, I did. I mean, I did. You know, I did. I don't remember a whole lot of it, but it was it was more like, OK, I'm just excited to I'm excited to, you know, get out and live my life outside of, you know, outside of my family and.

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And I went to Azusa Pacific University, which is, you know, like I said, a Christian college, we had chapel and we were required to take Bible classes. So, and even in those classes, I would say that my view of the Bible was was a little bit different. And I was beginning to expand and understand kind of like what I talked about before, where, you know, it's not so much about like the Bible is this.

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guidebook where you have all these things like, oh, you know, if I do these things, then I'm okay. It's more like the Bible is this rich document that has a lot of historical significance and their spiritual value to it. So it was like kind of this both like these realities that were both, you know?

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Your introduction to Rob as well probably sprinkled a little of that, like, oh, I don't have to take this so literally. Like, I'm not going to go literally do what the Bible tells me to do, but I can interpret it in a way that that serves me and serves the people around me. Were you also, and before you go on, were you in a space where you were trying to, for lack of a better word, recruit others into your sphere of

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of Christianity. I was still very much in the evangelical. Like when I say evangelical, it's it's more of like there's a focus on. Yeah. I mean, what you recruitment, I think, is probably a, you know, an accurate word because you are you're seeking out people to to join. So actively you this was like just part of your journey. Yeah, it was. It was. And in college, in college.

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there was a point where I was like an interim youth pastor for this Methodist church near the school I was attending. And I remember at one point, I took these kids, these were high school and middle school kids door to door. So like door to door. And we weren't necessarily saying, hey, you need to become a Christian. But the idea was we would ask them if there was anything that

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that we could pray for them for. So, you know, if I knocked on your door, Matt, and you're like knock, knock, knock, like, oh, hey, how's it going, Matt? Hey, look, is there anything that I can pray for you for? Like, is anything going on? Like, what's happening in your life? You know, we can either pray right now or pray later. And the idea was that, you know, we genuinely cared about these people, but we also wanted them to be like, hey, you know, these guys are okay.

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You know, they're like not. So it was kind of a, you know, a way to get some face time with people where we would normally, like if we knocked on the door and be like, hand you a pamphlet, it might not, you know, that might turn people off. Like people do to even today or not, even like recently I have Jehovah's Witnesses and you know, Mormons knock on my door, you know, and I'm always very polite, but I'm like, I just don't like, I don't even entertain it anymore.

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Do people answer their door? I don't even do that anymore. You're smart, Matt. You just don't answer the door. I have a camera. I don't need to do that. Actually, before you, I'm wondering, you know, Spark, when you said we genuinely cared, that like lit up in my brain, and I think it's because you told me a little bit, but.

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Do you think you genuinely cared, or do you think you were taught to feel like you genu- or to say that you genuinely cared? Do you feel like you loved everyone no matter what was going on, or was it like, this is what I was told I was supposed to feel, and so therefore, this is how I feel? I think there's a difference, there's a nuance in there that I wanna speak to you, because...

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the acceptance part. I would have said that I had that I accepted everyone back then, but looking back, I did not. It was more that I care and I'm concerned about your about your eternity. It's more about worry. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of yeah. Yeah, I'm worried that you're not like me or you're not like

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You don't believe what we're doing and therefore you're going to go to the bad place or whatever. Yeah, because that's a good point because there is definitely like in that in that time of my life, there was a right belief. Right. Well, you have the guidebook. Right. Exactly. So you have the guidebook and there's a right belief. And if you do not have the right belief, then your soul is in peril. And why wouldn't I?

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want to help you. Right. You know what I mean? So that's where the concern and the care was. And also, if someone was hurting, then I want the, and this is not necessarily the door to door thing, but if someone in my life was hurting, no matter what had happened, I want to help them. Because I.

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I did love them to the point where I was able to. You know what I mean? No, I get it, yeah. And that wasn't really a thought of you specifically, just curious in the sense that you were prescribed who was good, right, in short words, right? Like the Bible or your guidebook told you, these are the people that are going.

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to the good place. And then these are the people, or these are the type of people, I like that show, that are going to the bad place. And so, you know, it wasn't necessarily like, did you really care? I'm not saying any attack on your character, but I'm just curious. And it really just sounds like the more people we can save to make them feel like we do, or to like go where they need to go, that's where that word came from. Or have the right belief. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I remember there's this pastor.

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His name, I mean, I'll say his name because you know, he's he's big in the evangelical world. Greg Laurie. I remember listening to one of his sermons. And one of the things where I, you know, at the time I was like, oh, that doesn't sound right to me. But he said, like, the only reason you should have like non believing or non Christian friends is to convert them. And I was like, and at the at the time,

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You know, and this was, I was still really steeped in, you know, this worldview. I was like, that doesn't sound right to me. Well, then. Like, that doesn't add up to me, but okay. Right, no, I get it. I'm gonna go on my merry way and stuff. So, all that to say, I graduated college, I got my first teaching job, and one of the things that I learned, you know,

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being a private school kid and going into public education was my expectations of public education were this like godless place. And I am going to be, you know, one of the only people that has a particular worldview. And I need to be just like very careful about, you know, what I say and stuff because the narrative was, you know, public schools.

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you can't say this and you can't believe this and you can't, you know, so I was very much. No, that's Florida. That's what no, that's Florida. There you go. Literally. And so my experience was so different and it really was like, oh, there's a lot of people that think and feel the way that I do. And it just, it was much more open and accepting and loving. And I was just like, what?

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What was I so afraid of? Like this is and what were my parents so afraid of that they didn't send me to public school that that was the other thing like I mean, I guess I'm glad because, you know, I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't gone through all of the things I've been through. That was I think I think it's a it's an indication of what they had been thinking. It's like I can't send my kid to public school because

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then all these things, they'll be exposed to all these things. And we wouldn't want that. So anyways, I got my teaching job. I was married in 2003. My wife and I lived in Pasadena, got my teaching job. And then 2008, we moved to Georgia. And that's a whole other story. But I started working in classrooms for students with disabilities. And I was already very much on the edge

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like an inclusion journey with mindset. And really what it comes down to is, I was trained and taught in my teacher education program that learners with disabilities should be included in regular classrooms and that there's a way to do it. And we've known about that this is the right thing to do for years and years and years, but school systems have not caught up.

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even despite all the research, despite all the practices that have come before them. And so I was kind of like this going through a different life, you know, pivotal change, but it leads up to where my faith is because I realized what I had learned is that inclusion is a mindset, right?

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you it's a practice and a belief. So when you have the belief that everyone belongs and everyone is accepted then that changes your practices and your practices are oh well you know students with disabilities no matter what kind of disability shouldn't be off in the corner or in the back of the school where no one sees them they need to be included in the life of the school and be taught

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you know, teaching and instruction. And so that was really important to me. Then I created a website called Think Inclusive, uh, and started my podcast. And I started listening to people with disabilities. Like I would, you know, interview them. They would write articles. I would have, have friendships online, you know, and once I started learning and getting to know people with disabilities. I was like, Oh, like.

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There's all different kinds of people. And I remember this one time, I think I had had a guest author write something for the site. And they had described themselves as queer. And I was like, oh, OK. All right, that's fine. You know, that's fine. You know, I'm definitely for inclusion. And despite what I may.

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not understand about being queer, gay, lesbian, trans, whatever it is, I'm going to have an open mind. And so I just kept knowing more and more people that identified in particular ways. And it was so unexpected, Matt, because here I am, and I'm a teacher for students with disabilities. And most of them are young.

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met really any adults. It was just mostly kids because this was not my experience. I didn't grow up around people with disabilities a ton. I have a cousin who has some developmental disabilities and my wife's brother is autistic. But that's kind of it.

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And when I started to really open my world and meet adults who were advocating, you know, not only for inclusion as far as in disability, but also inclusion in sexual and gender identity, I was like, wait a minute. I had never connected the two. I had never thought that.

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Opening my heart and my mind to inclusion and acceptance would include People who had different identities? Like gender or sexual identity I had I was not expecting that well And you were conditioned growing up that that was were those the people on the outside? Oh Yeah, for sure and we didn't really I guess I really didn't include this in my you know in my run-up But I was very much taught

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that people who had different gender and sexual identities, that they were evil, that they wanted to hurt me, that I should stay away. And I will say, I did have an experience in high school, but I think my only experience of having any sort of, knowing anyone that was gay, my first job was at a...

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photography studio in the mall. This was like late 90s, so like mid-95, 96. And my supervisor, his name is Gil. I don't remember his last name. But Gil interviewed me and he had a .. Back when everyone had checkbooks, you know, and we get a checkbook. And when he

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figuring out when my first day was going to be. Like it had the checkbook and two male symbols that like, you know, were there. And I'm like, I was like, oh, okay. And like, again, like I was, I didn't feel in danger. I wasn't, you know, like it was more like, oh, okay, this is going to be interesting, you know? And so I got to know Gil, I got to know his husband because at the time, you know, their marriage was not legal.

40:20
but they still, you know, they had like he showed me his wedding pictures and it was on the beach, you know, and I don't remember where in the beach in California. And I was like, it was more like, oh, Gil's just like a normal person, like, oh, okay. So I just kind of filed that in the back of my head. And it was not like a thing until because again, when you live and grow up in a in a

40:49
that doesn't have any diversity, you know, let alone, you know, like religious views, but like sexual and gender identity, like there's no sort of like if you identified at all in any of those things, it was like, oh, no, no, no, no. Like we like you don't belong here. Yeah. Well, you also raised to to believe that those sexual identity, gender identity or choices. Oh, for sure.

41:18
And that people are just doing that because they want to hurt you or they want to whatever. Well, it my I mean, my parents definitely, you know, that was kind of the narrative was that that people like that were were there to hurt you or they were deceived. Right. They were deceived. And so they were tricked into making these choices for themselves. But it was a choice. But yeah, yeah, it wasn't until later. Well, here's where it changed for me.

41:47
what connected me and what clicked for me, and I've never been able to like, not think this way after that point. It was, okay, wait a minute. So you're telling me that you have someone who's autistic, someone with cerebral palsy, someone who was born with a disability, right? They had no choice but to be exactly who they are. How is that?

42:16
any different from someone who has, you know, who has a particular sexual identity. You know, I'm heterosexual. I cannot be anything other than heterosexual. You didn't choose that. You just are. I just am. I just am. And so it didn't, it wasn't until I put those things together that I was like, oh no.

42:45
Oh no, not only have I spent like my entire life thinking a certain way about, you know, a particular, you know, identity, but what else am I wrong about? So it was like you sat there in your whole life, you look back on your life and you're like, who am I? Who am I now? Who am I? If everything that I had been taught and grew up believing and

43:14
researching and heralding and all these things. And now I think this. So yeah, did everything just start crumbling? Or were you a little bit more like piecemeal? Because it feels like that would be like someone pulling the rug out from under you. So it was, you know, I started the website in 2012. By 2013 and 14, I was, you know, actively

43:44
engaged with all of these conversations and relationships with different kinds of people. And then it was probably 2014, so a couple years later, as I was like, what am I doing? Where do I want this, my Think Inclusive, where do I want it to go? Because if I want it to go, and if I want to build on it, and I want to keep doing this...

44:12
I have to figure this out. I think the first couple of years I was like, okay, that's a problem, but I'm not ready to deal with it. So it was more like I just kind of kept it to myself and I stayed away from that conversation and it wasn't until I started to really think like, okay, I see doing the podcast for a long time, I see writing for a long time, I need to figure this out. So I started reaching out to some of my really close.

44:42
friends that I trusted with this information. Somebody I went to college with who was in my wedding, somebody I had to go into church with at the time, and a couple other people. I said, hey, look, I'm kind of struggling with this idea, and here's where it's coming from. And I kind of explained, just like I explained to you, this connection between disability and sexual and gender identity.

45:10
And everyone was so supportive and being like, you know what, man, I had to figure that out too. And here are some things that I read. And the people that I reached out to, I think had already gone through a deconstruction period and they were just like, come on, man, man, the water is fine. Like, let's do it. Let's go. You know, and, and I was really, really struggling with this. It was probably for a good

45:39
six months to a year. I was kind of spiraling. Like I just didn't feel like I went to church, but it just there was a voice inside that my head. This is this is bullshit. This is bullshit, you know, and like this didn't happen. Everything you know is wrong. And so I just I needed I needed some more some other information. And so

46:09
A friend of mine turned me on to an author named Richard Roar. He's a Franciscan priest. I think that's what you call him. He's written a few books. And then it was more about figuring out what life and spiritual life is like on the other side of a deconstruction. And so then I started going down that road and listening to more podcasts and stuff like that. And then...

46:39
Here is my moment. So I don't remember the day exactly, but it was probably around 2015 because I was pulling up. I pulled up the podcast episode. My friend Pete, he was like, Hey, I just listened to this podcast by Rob Bell. I'm like, Oh my gosh, Rob Bell. Like I know Rob Bell and you should listen to it. And so the name of the podcast is like the river, the mountain.

47:09
and you or something like that. I think this was like 2015. And so I listened to the podcast and he starts off by saying like there's this kind of old wise Zen saying that the river is a river and the mountain is a mountain. And then the river is not a river and the mountain is not a mountain. But then the river is a river.

47:38
And the mountain is a mountain again. And I was like, huh, okay. And he started to explain that, especially in your spiritual life, that at one point everyone has a worldview. I'm like, yep, that was me. I had a worldview. And at some point that worldview doesn't work for you anymore. Like it, like it.

48:08
doesn't answer the questions that you have. And that's when the mountain and the river are no longer the mountain and the river. I'm like, that's where I'm at. That is where I'm at, Rob. That's where I'm at. And he said, you know, maybe it's a job, maybe it's going to college, maybe it's, you know, getting just new information, maybe it's a book, maybe it's something. But something is the thing that propels you into this other stage where

48:38
The mountain is no longer the mountain and the river is no longer the river. And so for me, that was me reconciling that I am advocating and I am loving and accepting all of these people with, you know, diverse backgrounds. I cannot keep loving these or saying that I'm loving these people and thinking that they're going to hell. Like I, like I just, I cannot do that.

49:07
So if that's the case, then something is wrong. Like I just, I don't understand. And so I'm listening to Rob and I'm listening to Rob and he kind of finds, he ends with saying this thing that's like, if this is you, you are not alone. And this is completely normal. And I'm like, Rob, it doesn't feel normal.

49:36
It doesn't feel normal. It feels like I'm giving up on everything that made me who I was. It felt like I was giving up and throwing away everything, and that I had wasted my time. And that feels awful. It's a wake-up call, too, because I'm sure the acceptance of these people around you and the people you were talking to and the love that you had for them.

50:05
was real. And what you used to think was real was fighting to like win that back. And now you're having like a war inside yourself, like actually like, how can I feel both ways? And which way do I go? And what's what's happening? So I totally get that. You know, it's weird that we can hear something, maybe 1000 times, like someone could have said that to you before, you might have heard something like that 10 years earlier and

50:33
What? You know, like, whatever. But once you hear it at that right moment in time, it's like everything opens. The floodgates open, and your life is like, OK. But you know what's nice about that saying, although kind of odd, is that it's like it gave you hope that you can create your own thing. And part of me almost sees like there's a benefit to having gone through the upbringing that you did.

51:03
and then deconstructing it because now you can take the best pieces of all the things that you really like because you did the deep dives like you said, you read all the commentaries and all that. You can take the things that really matter and resonate with you now and up to you, but you can create your own version of your faith that speaks to you and helps you do all these things. I kind of see it like that. I don't know if you probably didn't feel that way at first.

51:32
This was a big waste of time. I think the biggest thing that I felt was relief. Oh, from hearing the podcast, not about your life before that. No. It was more when I heard the words, when I heard Rob speaking to me, this voice from the past, so this voice that I knew saying these words, it gave me permission to.

52:02
let go of the guilt and the shame and the not knowing that I was currently living in at the time. I sat down. I think my wife was working at the time. I was sitting there.

52:24
relieved but also distraught because I knew that there was a long road ahead of me to rebuilding it. And I just sat there bawling. I just did. I was...

52:42
I was.

52:47
I think you hit the nail in the head when you said that it was hope. Rob had given me hope because I felt like there was no way out. I don't know who I am anymore. If I'm not this person who believes a certain way about the world and about life, then who am I? And so from that point...

53:17
It's been the long and winding road of self-discovery. And also, you know, that includes figuring out what my faith looks like. For me, I still go to church. I still read the Bible. I still read books about Christian spirituality, but I hold my faith much more loosely, if that makes sense. So...

53:47
I understand that, you know, no matter where I go to church, wherever I practice, you know, my faith, not everyone's going to think like me. You know, I mean, my family, there's people in my family that do not think like me. And I have a much more open and universally accepting worldview. And I'm okay with that.

54:16
And that is what is giving me life. And that is what is propelling me to love not only myself more, but also other people more. You know, one of the things that that kind of keeps me going, you know, in the Bible talks about, like, I think someone asked Jesus, like what the greatest commandments were. And, uh, Jesus says like, love God and love people, you know, I'm paraphrasing, you know, but. Like that is essentially what it's.

54:45
come down to for me is are the things that I'm doing, loving other people and accepting other people for exactly who they are, exactly who they're made to be. Am I bringing peace? Am I bringing love? Am I bringing hope? Am I bringing joy to whatever situation, whatever relationship I'm in? That's how I can love people like God loves people. It's not in a sense that

55:15
I'm saying you are doing this and then therefore you are going to a particular place, you know, because that is when it all boils down to it, it's fear based. Yeah, 100%. Well, it almost sounds like your faith now and forgive me if this is wrong, but it sounds like your faith now is for you. Like you now this faith is yours. Whereas before that faith was something that was kind of given to you and that you adopted and it was kind of like everyone's.

55:44
This one is your own. It's unique to you. It's you have your faith instead of everyone needs this same thing. We all need to drink from the same cup kind of thing as I can create it on my own. Would you say that's kind of true? Or are you still like trying to get people to come into your worldview? I know I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't say that. I would I would say there's this term called ex-vangelical.

56:14
I get it But I will say that I'm still learning Which is good. I mean, yeah, we as humans continue to learn and not be stuck into a particular box especially one that is kind of guided by An ancient text if you will right and so I think we need to evolve, you know and I think we need to think of other sides of what people are experiencing and like you pointed out like most people don't

56:43
Like they're they just are right like whatever that experience is that they're having they just are you know Part of me when you were telling your story Thought about and you didn't tell me exactly why you started leaning into inclusivity but part of me was like I wonder if that was like your subconscious like poking at you to be like Hey guy Pay attention to this stuff over here Because you know, like I think we need to now because always you know

57:11
deep down there was maybe something that was like, hey. So I don't know if any of that resonates or if any of that's true, but it's very interesting that that's what you leaned into, despite what you grew up and did. That is interesting. I haven't thought about it in that way. Most people when they ask me like, why did you start Think Inclusive? Why did you start going down this road? And like to me,

57:40
at the very basic level, like being so close to people in the disability community and seeing the absolute injustice of the inequality and like it's just not equitable, their experience not only in schools but in life, that just lit a fire under me. And for the very same reasons that...

58:09
I get so upset when I hear about people just thinking it's okay to disparage same-sex marriage or people who have different gender and identity, sexual and gender identities. It makes me really mad. So I think that there's something in there about the...

58:39
inequity of it all that just it just I don't know it's always just stirred something in me well I also think that in a weird way maybe I'm just here we here we go Matt assuming things that in your upbringing you were also made to feel that you all were being excluded or the people in like the people on the outside were looking at you as

59:07
something other than who they are. And so you have this kind of sense of like, why are people attacking us as this group? I wonder if there's anything that plays into that, because I could see how that there might be a victim component to that as well. And that there's that defense of like, this is why we need to save you, because everyone's in the wrong defense kind of mode and to.

59:35
kind of feel that at some point and then go, oh, I can actually see it happening to other people too. I want to help them. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I mean, I definitely feel like that's how some people feel now, you know, that are on a particular side of the issue, right? That they feel attacked because people are just living their lives, you know? It's like the very fact that, you know, that it's legal for...

01:00:05
know, T people the same sex to marry. It's, it's offensive to them. I don't I don't understand it either. Thankfully. Yeah, I'm glad that I don't have that problem because I don't understand why someone would be upset how someone else is living their life. But the way you explain it, I think if you're in that bubble, you understand that it's your job to save these people. But at the same time, I don't think a lot of those people are

01:00:35
attempting to save these people, it's just more like ostracizing them and making them less than. So I think there's a whole other conversation there. I don't think that some people are as authentic or maybe genuine as you describe the way that you felt, you know, kind of in that space. I think there are people that can possibly weaponize certain things. Absolutely. I'm not saying that you did. But I think, you know, that's a whole other conversation. But it's...

01:01:03
You know, what's important about your story is that, or what I think is interesting about your story is that you were so ingrained in something. Something woke you up to the idea that maybe there's a little bit more, but yet you didn't run away. I think a lot of people, like you feel this and you're just like, you do the exact opposite. You're just like, nothing. Like I'm just, I delete everything and I'm starting fresh and I'm gonna build my own life.

01:01:31
But you were like, no, there is value in the things that I did and the things that I learned. And I still want that feeling. I still want these things. But you kind of want to do it on your own terms now, which I think is kind of how everyone should be living. Like, I feel like you are who you are, and you like what you like, and you want to do what you want to do. And that should be OK with everyone around you, as long as you're not hurting other people or hurting yourself. I think that there is importance in that.

01:02:00
We're all just trying to do the same thing here. Well, and the other thing that I want to communicate to anyone who's listening is I think it's very easy for someone to listen to this conversation and be like, this is great, Tim. I'm really glad you still believe. At least you still believe, Tim. But I think the important thing is that you're not going to be able to do it.

01:02:30
At some level, we're all wrong about all of this. Yes. You know, like if, you know, if you believe in God, if you believe that there is something after, right? We're not going to get there by having a hundred percent the right and only belief. It's just.

01:02:58
It's impossible. Like think about all the ways you could be wrong. Yeah, right. So I would rather believe that there is something but hold that belief loosely and say that I could be wrong, but I would rather err on the side of universally loving and accepting everyone.

01:03:28
Exactly as who as exactly as they are.

01:03:34
I mean, I couldn't agree with you more about like, some of us are wrong. I mean, there's a like, there's a chance that we're all wrong. Right. Exactly. And I always think that when people are like in really entrenched in one religion or another religion, I'm like, well, which one of you is the right one? You know, and so your story is all of just finding the ability to truly, unconditionally love. That's all it is.

01:04:03
Right? You're loving who you choose to believe in, but also you're loving the people around them for who they are and for what they offer to the world. And your world is probably a lot better now. I mean, in a more richer, I should say, maybe that you involve in a lot more things, you know, and you can connect with a lot more people now because you have that love. Well, I think, you know, when when when Christians talk about freedom in Christ,

01:04:31
And I can only speak to the Christian experience because that's that's all I've ever been that makes more sense to me now because of my acceptance of who I am and acceptance of other people because to me that is true freedom not. Thinking about all the things that I've done that are quote unquote bad or sinful the more I think about that.

01:05:01
the more guilt and shame I have despite the fact that it, you know, when people talk about it, the idea is that, you know, Christ or whoever saves you. But with this seeing Christ in me or God in me and have full acceptance that to me has helped me love myself way more.

01:05:31
and love you or anyone else because you know, if I really believe the things that you know, I believe, I believe that we're all creations of God. Yeah. And why would he create some that that were good and then some that were not and yeah, totally make sense. If someone listening is is someone in that the river and the mountain no longer exist mode and

01:05:59
they don't know what to do. Is there anything that you could recommend that they, like what's that first step that they take to try to find a way out or find a way to whatever's next? It doesn't have to be rebuilding faith, but just like any advice for someone that might be in that same feeling that you did, that despair? I'll try to echo, I'll try to channel Rob Bell as best as I can. But what really helped me was

01:06:27
to know that I wasn't alone, that these feelings and questions are totally normal, and to keep going, just to keep going. Keep asking questions, keep digging, and do not be afraid of where you end up, because you'll end up exactly where you need to be. You just gotta keep going. And hopefully, hopefully, you have some people in your life that are cheering you on, because...

01:06:57
That's the last thing I would have wanted is if I were to say, you know what? I'm really questioning things. I'm really having a hard time. Like I need to understand and someone be like, Oh Tim, you shouldn't do that. Don't go down that road because if you do. So I was very fortunate to not have people like that in my life. I was just thinking as you were saying that your whole story is about faith and this whole

01:07:26
conversation is it's just really been about faith in yourself in like a different context of like just trust that, you know, you're like you said, take those steps and you're going to end up exactly where you're supposed to be. That's essentially having faith in yourself. And so there's this like connection of words and I really appreciate you sharing it. I think there's a lot of people in your space that that have

01:07:53
either gone through this already, I've had another conversation on this podcast, I think you listened to that as well, in which someone was deeply entrenched in their Mormon faith, and then completely deconstructed it, and hasn't come to the other side that you have of being able to rebuild it quite yet. But there's so many people out there that are kind of just in the same experience. And so hopefully they hear your story and they're inspired to either reach out to you. Hopefully that's cool.

01:08:22
because I'm going to give them your information on socials. But I think the key, and you said it a couple of times now, is to know that you're not alone in this. You're not the only person, fortunately, unfortunately, however you want to look at it, that's experienced this. And so knowing that there's a possibility, like you explained, to get to this place, I think is really helpful for people. And that's kind of.

01:08:49
the whole reason we do the LifeShift podcast. I don't know why I said we, I said me, but Arshad said me. I do that all the time. I say we and I really mean me. So I appreciate you sharing that story and sharing how you kind of grew up and then lost it, but then found your way to this version of you. Would you say you're quite different than the version of Tim that you were 20 years ago?

01:09:12
Um, not, I mean, not terribly different in personality, but definitely in mindset. Yeah. You know, mindset, mindset's key. You know, part of my job is communicating to other people to hopefully change their mindset about, you know, people with disabilities and, you know, inclusion and stuff. And I have found myself in that same journey, just in a different context. And.

01:09:42
Really, there's so many parallels because if you look at people who have changed their mindset about inclusive education, it's typically because they've experienced something different firsthand with a student or with an educational system. For me, that's exactly what happened. I experienced something different with the people around me in relationships.

01:10:11
I was never the same. Opened your eyes a little bit wider. You saw a little bit beyond the fray and made changes. And good for you. I'm happy to now know you and now know more about you. So thank you for sharing your story. We will definitely share the information that you gave us or you gave me. Why do I keep saying us? It's just me. We will share that information so people can reach out to you, connect with you on socials, or find out what you're up to. Listen to your podcasts.

01:10:40
I know you're working on another piece of content as well. So we'll share that if that's out in time. So thank you for being a part of this. Absolutely. Thanks you for having me, Matt. Really appreciate it. For sure. And if you're listening, Tim can agree, these ratings and reviews, we don't know what they mean. We don't know if they do anything, but we like to see them. So if you are enjoying these conversations, please take the time to do that. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift Podcast.

01:11:10
Thanks Tim. Thanks.

01:11:22
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com