Escaping a Toxic Marriage Unleashes Jenn Todling's True Self

Jenn Todling00:00:00

I remember looking at like the first page and it had this quote and it said, what would your life look like five years from now if you don't make a change? And I remember just. I don't even know if I continued reading the book, to be honest with you.I don't remember because it was sort of like that experience you talked about, where it was, wow, I've been trying to keep everything together, but I'm, I'm ignoring the cost of staying. And I was already at my breaking point. I had already broken down. I was already not okay mentally.And so that thought honestly was sort of this moment of it really doesn't matter why or how the complexity of our situation is, is where it is. I can't stay. Like, it's not okay for me.And that was sort of that first shift that I needed to, to say, okay, how then how do I actually untangle myself from the situation?

Matt Gilhooly00:00:53

Today's guest is Jen Todling.She is a former corporate executive who walked away from a 20 year career and a challenging marriage to truly redesign her life with purpose, creativity, and that word that some people don't love, authenticity. She's now an author, she's an executive coach, and she's a teacher.And she's super passionate about helping others embrace life's messy, beautiful transitions. In this episode, Jen shares her journey of navigating guilt and breaking free from toxic patterns and. And truly learning to honor her own needs.For the first time, we explore the pivotal moments that sparked her transformation, including this life changing question that you just heard in the opening that she discovered in a book that she doesn't remember if she finished reading. What would your life look like five years from now if you don't make a change?Jen's story is raw, honest, and it's filled with lessons about really setting boundaries and trusting your gut. And it'll help you create a life that aligns with who you truly are. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Jen Toddling.I'm Matt Gilhooley and this is the Life Shift Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Jen. Hello, Jen.

Jenn Todling00:02:22

Hi, Matt. So nice to be here with you.

Matt Gilhooly00:02:24

Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast. Everyone knows that we do a little talking before we start recording.So you are in Denver and I'm in Orlando and we talked about how our lives kind of switched the way we did. We did moving in our past Absolutely.

Jenn Todling00:02:39

Right. Like, we both were in each other's states, but at different times of life, which is pretty cool.

Matt Gilhooly00:02:43

Yeah. Well, I am a little bit jealous of you being in Denver because I think. I don't know, just.I like the scenery and the temperature swings, and one day it's snowing, and then the next day it's 80.

Jenn Todling00:02:56

Well, that's happening right now. Yesterday was snowing, and now it's sun shining. And I don't know that it's 80, but it's probably closer to 60. So there's something about Colorado.Right. If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes and you'll get something else. Definitely.

Matt Gilhooly00:03:09

Definitely Denver. Because if it hits the mountain a certain way, it either goes over the mountain or it comes back at you. Yeah, whatever. A wonderful thing.I think I love Colorado. I lived out there for a year, and the nature part of it is just so, I guess, foreign to me.I grew up with Florida beaches, and that just doesn't feel like nature, but when you go somewhere that is vastly different. And I lived close to Moab, and so that whole world was totally different, too. Seeing the.The mountains and the rocks out there being so different than the flatness of Florida.

Jenn Todling00:03:40

Yeah, it's really grounding, and it's interesting. I spent the last 24 years on the east and west coast, so I actually am just coming now back to colorad, and. And this.I miss the ocean, so I kind of have the reverse. I'm like, where is the water?But, I mean, this area was ocean millions of years ago, and you can still, like, feel that energy, which is really interesting. So, yeah, the nature of the mountains, the hiking, it's very grounding. So I understand what you're saying.

Matt Gilhooly00:04:05

I love it. Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast.This has been a journey that I never really knew that I needed, and it's just so wonderful to have something like this where I can talk to people that otherwise might never have interacted with in my life, and the ability to do it in a way in which the stories and the conversations that we share, other people can hear with my goal of someone out there feeling really alone in their circumstance. They can hear somebody else's story and go, oh, I'm not weird, or I'm not alone, or whatever. Whatever it may be. And.And I've just been so lucky to do this. So thank you for wanting to come on this journey, wherever this conversation goes today.

Jenn Todling00:04:49

Yeah, I'm excited. And thanks for the opportunity before we.

Matt Gilhooly00:04:52

Get into your story. I think it is good to share if there's someone listening for the first time because you are on.The Life Shift idea of the Life Shift podcast comes from my own personal experience. When I was a kid, my parents were divorced when I was maybe like five or six. My dad then moved to Georgia.I lived in Massachusetts, so we lived thousands of miles away. I live with my mom full time, and one summer I went to visit my dad. And I was there for pretty much I felt like the whole summer.I don't know how long it felt like I was going to be there forever. Turns out I was. But one day, my dad.I got walked into my dad's office at work after summer camp one day and he had to tell me that my mom had been killed in a motorcycle accident. And I didn't really understand what that meant, but I knew at that moment in time that.That everything that we had, like, envisioned for my life was now gone. Like there was no chance of that ever happening because I did live with my mom full time and I was going to see my dad every once in a while.And now my dad was going to have to take the role of both parents with a grieving child and all these things. And I say that because at the time, it was the late 80s, early 90s, people weren't really talking about mental health or grieving children.You're just like, it's a kid, he'll bounce back, he'll be fine. As long as he's happy, he'll be fine. So I absorbed absorb that.And I felt that everyone around me needed to know that I was going to be fine, which meant pushing down my grief or not really processing it because I didn't know how and the people around me didn't know how to help me.And all the while, behind the scenes, I was like, do other people have, like, something happen in which from one second to the next, everything has changed? It's like this Life Shift moment. Turns out when I grew up and matured a little, I realized that we have lots of these.But as a kid, it feels like so life changing. And so now I figured I would start a podcast in which I could talk to people about these moments.And sometimes it's a phone call, sometimes it's a diagnosis, sometimes it's reading a book, sometimes it's, you know, whatever it may be that shifts our perspective or the way that we approach something or life just feels different from that moment. And so I'm really excited to hear about your life Shift moment, knowing full well that there's a lot of hard parts around it.But I think that's unfortunately common, that people will hear it and go, oh, I've been there, or I'm there, and maybe there is a hope for the future to move forward. So, again, thank you for wanting to share your story in this way.

Jenn Todling00:07:23

Well, and thanks for this opportunity because I do think, you know, we're probably similar aged. And so I think there wasn't a lot of conversation Right. When we were growing up to process grief or trauma. Right. And so I.I definitely notice even how I'm raising my daughter, like, trying to be a lot more intentional with holding space for that. So I think this is a really good opportunity to just hold space for whatever life is throwing at us. Right. I'm sorry you had to navigate that.Like, that's incredibly traumatic. But we're all dealing with things. Right? And so being able to have a space where we can see we're not alone, I think that's really powerful.

Matt Gilhooly00:07:57

I feel like the world. It's hard to say in 2025, but I feel like. I feel like people. There was a.There was a lot of time spent on social media where when it first started, people were really sharing the highlight reels of their life. And I think now more people are willing to share the messy parts. And for me, the messy parts are the ones that I relate to the most.And I don't know if that's my own trauma speaking or if that's just like being a human, that there are challenges and tribulations that are much easier to relate to another person than winning an Oscar, you know, or getting that big promotion. So I have some hope there. And you were saying this before. There was like, when we grew up, there was not this talk like that. For me, I very much.And maybe you did this as well, absorbed society's checklist in which, oh, yeah, like, I was supposed to go to high school, and then I was go to college, and then you have to get a good job, and then you have to find someone, then you got to get married, then you have to buy a house and a car, and. And it was like chasing these check marks of things that I felt like I had to do, but no one actually told me I did.So I don't know if you relate to that at all.

Jenn Todling00:09:10

Absolutely, Absolutely. I mean, I definitely was, like, crossing off the to do list. And I think that's sort of. My unwinding is like, wait a minute.

Matt Gilhooly00:09:18

You're like, where's the happiness.

Jenn Todling00:09:19

Where is that? Yeah.And I do think there is, like, I try to be conscious of, because there's a lot that people see sometimes in my life that looks like the highlight reel, but I try and bring in that realness because I think it's more authentic. Like we're all navigating things that are challenging and. And I like to play in the messy space too.So it'll be interesting to kind of see what we can explore together.

Matt Gilhooly00:09:39

For sure. Well, before we explore your story, maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are in 2025. How do you identify?

Jenn Todling00:09:46

Yeah, so I wear many hats. I'm a mom. I have a six year old. I'm a wife. I've been married almost, I guess nine years now. I just recently made a big career pivot.So I spent 20 years in public accounting and a high corporate, high intense job. And about 10 months ago, I left that to pursue my dreams. Really. And so that's life as an author. I'm an executive coach and a teacher.So I teach leadership at the University of Denver. So I'm really in this, like, interesting space of designing sort of my Life and Career 2.0.And so it's a lot of learning to slow down, to be honest with you, like allow for spaciousness and a little bit more heart led versus sort of like checking the boxes. And so that's been an interesting transformation that is ongoing, so to speak.

Matt Gilhooly00:10:37

I mean, that's beautiful. It's also like when you said the things that you're doing now were.Were so not on the list of things that, that I could have chosen from in high school. Like, these are the things you can be when you grow up. Right?

Jenn Todling00:10:47

Yeah, no, I followed the path. Right. And I made it to the top. Then it was like, wait a minute. But is this how I want to live my life?

Matt Gilhooly00:10:55

I think that there are, I think the 40s, like, getting close to being 40. Is this. The people around me that are my age seem to be having this kind of awakening, if you will.I don't know if you're seeing that around you, but I think that maybe the pandemic also kind of got people like, oh, if this is happening, like, maybe I should. Maybe I should emerge doing something I like to do.

Jenn Todling00:11:18

Yeah, I mean, the pandemic for me was absolutely a triggering point. And I was like, what am I doing?And I started shifting during that time to coaching and education and doing it kind of while I was still in corporate. But I do think the 40s are sort of this midlife awakening.And you do have this, like, you start to understand your mortality a little bit different and also what makes you happy. Right. And money isn't always gonna do that.And so that I really struggled with because it was like, oh, how do I walk away from the security that I worked so hard for? And it took me three years, honestly, to find the courage to be like, okay, it's time.And I'm not saying it's without worry now, but there's, There's a different level of fulfillment.

Matt Gilhooly00:11:58

And you probably care less about what other people think. Like, I think we did in our 20s.

Jenn Todling00:12:03

We're like, oh, yes, everyone, no. And I'm okay. I was like the straight A student, right? I'm people pleaser. And I'm like, yeah, I can be a B mom and I can be a B worker.And, you know, because there's. Because I want to have a full life. And so I'm not chasing that perfection. It's just not fun. I'm just. I try and take action imperfectly.

Matt Gilhooly00:12:22

I love that. Let's dive into your story.Maybe you can paint the picture of your life leading up to this life shift moment and go back as far as you need to to kind of give that picture and then we'll go from there.

Jenn Todling00:12:32

Yeah. So I would say, like, for me, it starts probably in my youth. And my parents also divorced when I was young. I was a little bit older, I was about 12.And I had two other siblings at the time, and I was the oldest. Right. So I kind of helped take care of them. We lived with my dad, but I loved to dance. Like, I always loved to dance. I was sort of self trained.Grew up dancing to Star Search, Madonna, and just, you know, old school. And when I was 14, I got professional training, I joined a ballet company. I became a principal dancer.Like, I just was like at the ballet studio every day after school. And so that was a really big part of who I am.And that creative outlet really helped me through sort of my youth as I was navigating caregiving and, you know, family responsibilities. And so When I was 20, I was a sophomore, almost a sophomore in college. I got married, sort of had this adventure idea.And the person I got married to lived in California. So I was like, I'm out of here. Like, I'm going to have an adventure and start a new life, so to speak. And so I did that, continued my degree.You know, we were married for a few years, everything was fine. Started working in a corporate job. And then my spouse got sick, and it took many years to figure out what the cause was.And there was a lot of mystery symptoms. It was complex, right. And so it turned into basically, like, a chronic illness that got to a point where he was housebound and sort of disabled.Here I am navigating this new job in the early 2000s, right. And having a spouse that needs me also to sort of help care for him.I was able to negotiate with my work, to do a remote work assignment, which at that time, like, was unheard of, you know, and it was like, you can try. And I was able to do that for about five years and manage sort of these different, you know, responsibilities.But with that, the situation also started to get volatile and toxic. And my. And I was very isolated. So I kind of became homebound, too. Like, I would leave sometimes, maybe to go to the office, but not very much.I didn't have a lot of outlets with my friends. Like, I would try, and then I'd have to come home really quickly.So it was this very isolated situation, and my family was all still in Colorado, and so I didn't really see them. And so my mental health, you know, took a toll. Right. And I started to get to a point that, you know, I had sort of a mental breakdown.And I realized, like, I am not okay. Like, I am not okay. So it. But how do I leave, right?How do I leave this situation that's really complex and someone needs me, but it's not good for me. I'm tethered, Right. It was this. It was so stuck. I was so stuck, and I couldn't see a way out.

Matt Gilhooly00:15:31

Yeah. Do you also feel like I. This is me just assuming here, but is there, like, a guilt feeling too?

Jenn Todling00:15:37

100%.

Matt Gilhooly00:15:37

If someone, quote, unquote, needs you to survive in the way that they were living, I feel like I would also have this, like, guilt. Like, who am I? Why am I putting myself above someone else if I want to do XYZ when so and so needs me to exist?

Jenn Todling00:15:55

100. And then, as I said at the beginning right here, I'm the, like, straight A student. I'm the people pleaser.I want people to like me, and I think subconsciously probably need me. You know, I was used to that. Right. There was this sort of like, oh, I feel some comfort in that.And so I couldn't, like, mentally fathom leaving someone so dependent on me. But also, the situation was not good for me. And so it was a very, very tricky scenario.

Matt Gilhooly00:16:23

And you didn't really have a friend group that you could share any of that with or did? Because the reason I asked that is sometimes when we're in these. These circumstances, we have an outlet where we can share something.Did you have someone you could share these?

Jenn Todling00:16:41

So I had. I had a little bit. So I had.Two of my best friends were in California, you know, and I would still talk with my family, and they would encourage me to leave. Right. It was sort of like, this isn't good for you. But I was like, I know, but how do I do that? Like, how do I navigate this?And honestly, I don't know that I was completely transparent either with everything I was going through, because I didn't know how to process it.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:04

And you probably grew up not like parents telling you, do you don't talk about certain things with other people, or did you. Did you have an open kind of conversation?

Jenn Todling00:17:12

I mean, we had an open. But, you know, we.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:15

My.

Jenn Todling00:17:15

My parents were, you know, navigating their own lives a little bit, so we were a little. We were pretty independent. Right. So I don't. It. I. I think I had. I definitely had shame.Now that I can look back, there was a shame element of something's happening here that I don't feel comfortable with. But I don't know how to say.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:30

That, because you're failing. In your eyes, you're failing.

Jenn Todling00:17:33

Yeah, I am. Right. Yeah. There was. There was a lot of big emotions and the guilt, honestly, when we kind of talk about the after, I mean, that was.That was what I had to process a little bit because that. It was so deep.

Matt Gilhooly00:17:45

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's challenging to. I think for anyone that's been in a place doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship.It could even be a friendship, a place where you feel that you're not in the right place. But you also know that everyone's expecting you to commit to this experience, if you will, and now you're gonna fail.

Jenn Todling00:18:07

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:18:07

In their eyes, if you make any other choice, that's not what. What you think they expect you. They probably don't think. But what you assume that other people are like, oh, well, if this.If you leave this, you have failed at this checkbox in your life.

Jenn Todling00:18:21

Yeah. And I think my family was pretty supportive of me leaving, but definitely not my spouse. Right. I mean, there was a lot of complexity there.

Matt Gilhooly00:18:32

I mean, was this something that you were keeping to yourself or was this like, hey, I'm gonna leave?

Jenn Todling00:18:36

If I was keeping it to myself? I didn't feel Safe to have that.

Matt Gilhooly00:18:40

Conversation, which is even scarier to go through each day in a. Not scared. Scary might not be the right word, but more challenging to.To navigate your everyday life knowing you're keeping this huge secret with the person you're with most of the hours of the day. What do you do to take steps forward? Can you take step forward? I mean, obviously you have. But like, how does that, how does that unfold?

Jenn Todling00:19:07

Yeah, I mean, I think there was. It. It was hard to explain. Sort of like to be really honest with how I felt about it. Right. Because I didn't know how to navigate that.I didn't have language growing up to honestly honor my needs and that that's not to anyone's fault or situational. I just hadn't had that experience. Right.And that people pleasing side of me had a hard time holding a boundary and saying, hey, I'm not comfortable in this scenario. And that was something that I've had to spend the last sort of 20 years. Right. Like learning to be honest with you of like, hey, it's not okay.And when we talk about the shift moment, I think that that's probably why that shift resonated with me. But I just, I. I didn't know how to navigate that, just to be honest with you.

Matt Gilhooly00:19:56

Yeah, well, I think a lot of people listening probably grew up in the same environment because I think it was more of a time period and maybe less of your parents in particular. I think it was just. That's not what we talk about anywhere. Because it's uncomfortable.

Jenn Todling00:20:11

Right?

Matt Gilhooly00:20:12

Because it's not, it's not the highlight reel.

Jenn Todling00:20:14

It's not like this is not the highlight reel chapter.

Matt Gilhooly00:20:17

Yeah, exactly. But. But it's the real chapter. Right. I feel like there's so many people that are slowly dying in silence because of the situations that they're in.Whether that's physically or mentally that we're just kind of depleted because we're putting all of our your A plus energy into existing so other people, so you don't ruffle feathers or whatever it may be. And then you have to kind of find your way out. I get it.I think that's why I love the show because we're talking about things that like when I grew up, we weren't allowed to talk about these things, in my opinion. I don't know if someone said I wasn't allowed. I'm sure someone was like, don't ask this question or don't say this.You know, even in my own family with some of the like the scandals that were in my family. It's like even now I'll like whisper a secret to my cousin about something that happened in generations before us. And they're like, really?Nobody's ever told me that before. And I was like, oh yeah, now.

Jenn Todling00:21:10

You know, I think the other thing for me too was I was trying to keep this career on track, right. So I, I was really. And I kept asking for more flexible work arrangements. Right.It was working at home, then it was different hours of the day, then it was fewer hours during busy season. And so I think there was this also desire that I needed to hold it together because I was the one paying the bills, you know, and I was.So there was an external pressure, whether that was real or not. So I wasn't confiding really in my coworkers either throughout now towards the end I did.And then it was sort of the support of like, hey, this isn't good for you. It would be good to leave. It wasn't like I was actively being. Here's what I'm navigating because I was trying to keep everything sort of together.

Matt Gilhooly00:21:55

Was the work fulfillment an escape at all? I know you were working remotely, so it makes it a little bit harder for it to be an escape. But was. Was the work piece the savior at some point?

Jenn Todling00:22:05

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because it allowed my brain to be productive. Right. So I ha. I did have an outlet. I had a productive outlet.It was very deadline driven, right. So there was like this like pressure of like, okay, checkbox, check, check, check.I was good at it, you know, and somehow like looking back, I'm like, how did I do that? Because sometimes it was working at 2 in the morning or it was, you know, I would still have to do things that were through the night.

Matt Gilhooly00:22:30

Were you moving up too? Were you like getting promoted and stuff?

Jenn Todling00:22:33

I was. And so I was really fortunate.I had a really amazing group of women who supported me because some of the requirements to advance I needed to do in person training and I couldn't do that. And so they homeschooled me. Like they came to my home, we met for coffee and like walked me through the training.So I had like really amazing people that, that really allowed me to continue to advance. So I was, I was still advancing.This like six month experiment turned into like a five year adventure that, you know, I think was pretty successful and, and, and thankfully allowed me to still have those resources. Then that continued, you know, beyond that.

Matt Gilhooly00:23:11

Well, I mean I, I also asked that because I think if you weren't hitting marks or you weren't getting promoted. I think the circumstances could have been that much worse in your own mind. Right.Because you don't have that escape of, like, this is where I'm doing well. This is where I'm doing well. This is where I'm doing well.From a type A mind talking here, you know, like, I feel like it was very much like my life was hard in my 20s and 30s, but I was getting promoted all the time. So people on the outside were like, wow, look at him. Look at him. They didn't really care. But in my mind, I was thinking people were impressed.So that kind of kept me. Okay, if you will.

Jenn Todling00:23:50

Yeah, yeah. Definitely part of that for me.

Matt Gilhooly00:23:54

I get it. I mean, I'm glad that you had that little bit of an escape, too, because it could be dangerous in your own head if you didn't have that piece.But why don't you bring us closer to that. That life shift moment for you?

Jenn Todling00:24:06

Yeah. And so I was just trying to understand because I wasn't necessarily completely open with everybody on what I was feeling or thinking.I did a lot of kind of secret research at the library, you know, and I kind of look at books and, like, what can help me understand what I'm navigating here? And I would look at different books, and some of them, I'm like, okay, this feels like, you know, some of what I'm experiencing.But there was this one book, and I can't even remember the name of it anymore, but it had this, like, red cover.And I remember looking like the first page, and it had this quote, and it said, what would your life look like five years from now if you don't make a change? And I remember just. I don't even know if I continued reading the book, to be honest with you.I don't remember because it was sort of like that experience you talked about, where it was, oh, wow. I've been trying to keep this, everything together, but I'm. I'm ignoring the cost of staying. And I was already at my breaking point.I had already broken down. I was already not okay mentally.And so that thought, honestly, was sort of this moment of it really doesn't matter why or how the complexity of our situation is, is where it is. I can't stay. Like, it's not okay for me. And that was sort of that first shift that I needed to. To say, okay, how then.How do I actually untangle myself from the situation? And it ended up being like, untangle myself from the web of guilt. Right. That was like accompanying that.But it allowed me that forward momentum for myself. Because even if people were saying this isn't good for you, I needed to feel that myself.That allowed me to then take action and start to seek more external help through therapy, through legal advice, right through all of that, of how do I navigate this situation for myself? But that was that moment for me.

Matt Gilhooly00:26:04

Yeah. And it's so fascinating how like a collection of words can be a catalyst like that. Or.I mean, I've talked to many people about how they read a book for like the second time and a certain sentence stuck out that second time that became like that trigger. And you know, you probably thought it all along, but you needed to see someone else say it.

Jenn Todling00:26:31

Yeah, I needed the external validation a little bit. Like, it's okay.

Matt Gilhooly00:26:36

It's kind of like, remember when you were kids and your parents would say something, but than if like someone else that you respected in a different way said it, you're like, oh, yeah, now I get it.

Jenn Todling00:26:46

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:26:48

Cuz I think that we tell ourselves some things. I'm sure you had thought about five years from then, what, what would it be like if you didn't do anything? Would you still be in the same situation?But to see it in black and white on paper in front of you can trigger you to be like, oh, that's true. I should probably start taking some action.Like how, how, from reading that, how soon after did you start, like really taking serious steps to find your own happiness or untangle your guilt or whatever it may be?

Jenn Todling00:27:22

Yeah, I mean, I don't remember exactly.

Matt Gilhooly00:27:24

But I think it was, I want the hour.

Jenn Todling00:27:27

It was probably like the summer of 2009, like September 1st, 3. 33pm okay, so there you go. But I would say probably within the next few weeks or even months. I was so.So part of, part of that was we didn't have a diagnosis for my spouse. So like we had five years of medical mystery with no diagnosis. And so I think the first thing was, we need a diagnosis.And so I actually went to a doctor and pretended I was the patient so that I could convince him to come to my house and see my spouse and figure out what was going on. And thankfully he agreed and we were able to get a diagnosis. And as part of that conversation, he also gave me the name of a therapist.And so it was sort of that trajectory that, you know, I called the therapist and he sort of got me in right away. And so it was, I think we were meeting like weekly in his office So I would, you know, time it when I could leave the house.And he challenged me gently because it was like a lot of, like, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can do it. Like, okay, but let's unpack that.And probably over a six month period, I think there was probably six months of weekly visits. And then I started to actually realize, okay, it's time to leave. And how do I set myself up for that next chapter?

Matt Gilhooly00:28:48

Was that your first time in therapy?

Jenn Todling00:28:50

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly00:28:51

Okay. Was that a challenge for you to share openly?

Jenn Todling00:28:56

Yeah, it was. Because, again, I think I had shame. Right? There was shame in verbalizing what my experience was, and there was so much guilt. Right. So it was. But.But he was encouraging. And so that helped me realize that I wasn't crazy because I felt this, like, something's wrong with me.And it was like, no, this is just not good for you. And let's reframe it in a bigger picture.

Matt Gilhooly00:29:20

Yeah, I. I asked that because therapy was, like, so foreign to me until I found it. And then I was like, oh, this is hard.But also, once you find the right one, and it sounds like you found someone that you kind of worked well with right away, or at least felt comfortable enough right away. I mean, it took me, like, I think, five tries. The fifth therapist was the one that felt most aligned.And once I found that if everything started to unlock and, like, unfold and. And she was a help in kind of pushing me through the grief journey that I had been on for decades.So I ask about therapy because it's for people like us that want to succeed or we want people to like us, or we want. We don't want people to judge us in a particular way.Therapy can be very scary, especially if you're about to tell them something that you've already built up in your head is a failure or you feel bad saying out loud. So I'm glad you did it, though, because, I mean, that seems like that was another push or really the unlocking.

Jenn Todling00:30:31

It was the unlocking. And like you said, right.I had my friends and family that were maybe telling me things, but I needed a different person to sort of be like, okay, let me process this. And I did. And it gave me courage. It gave me courage.And also it sort of shifted, like, my needs and my wants and my mental health matter, too, because I think I was sort of in this. I'll be the selfless martyr. Right. And that I had to sort of relearn that. No, no. Like my Life is important too.And do I want to stay in this relationship?

Matt Gilhooly00:31:05

Right. So it sounds like the therapist wasn't like telling you to leave. He was telling you to listen to what you need or to identify maybe.

Jenn Todling00:31:14

What you actually need and set some boundaries. Right. Like it's okay to set some boundaries about what's okay and not okay. And that was something that was new for me.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:22

Don't you find it fascinating that we feel like we're fully formed humans out into the world doing stuff, and then someone's like, here's how you can be like a complete human to do the things that you need to do. I felt the same way. I was like, oh, wow, I'm allowed to think that. And they're like, yeah, you can think whatever you want.

Jenn Todling00:31:39

Yeah. Oh, that's where the 30s and 40s are. Like, oh, okay, this is how it works. We don't really know.

Matt Gilhooly00:31:46

In our 20s, sometimes, do you think you felt like a different person after opening that book, do you think?And then a different person after kind of going through therapy for a little bit, or do you think when you were finally able to tell your spouse that, that this is what's going, like, where in that journey, do you feel the biggest difference between 20s, Jen, and then this, this newer version of you?

Jenn Todling00:32:12

Yeah. And it's interesting because it was right after my 30th birthday or so I was 30 when I started. So a 20 year old married. Right.30 year old, sort of leaving. I think the moment where I probably felt that biggest difference was the day I actually left and I had started to prepare.Like, I found an apartment, I started furnishing it, I started opening new bank accounts. Right. Like we were. I had to sort of like start these things under.

Matt Gilhooly00:32:36

Was it all secret? Okay.

Jenn Todling00:32:37

It was all undercover. And then there was a situation that escalated and I. I didn't feel comfortable and thankfully I had a place to go to and I left.Like, I sort of escaped, right? I was like, okay, this is the moment where I don't feel safe anymore. And. And I left. And.And the phone is ringing right as I'm trying to drive down the freeway to my new apartment. And I'm not answering the phone. And I didn't answer the phone, right. And that was something. I was like, I got to answer the phone, right?It doesn't matter where I'm at, like, what? He needs me. And I was like, nope, nope, not answering the phone.And then it took a series of probably a month or two of like going back, still helping him Making meals, because I didn't. I. That guilt just doesn't go away. Right. And there was a transition too, of care that I was trying to support.But then there also came a point where it was like, he was like, you've left. Like, why are you coming back? And I was like, why am I coming back? Right. Like, what am I doing? And then I sort of never went back, so to speak.But there was this moment of like, I've broken that tie and then a little ripple and then now I'm really done. And then there's still a. Processing, obviously afterwards, but it was like that was the, the next probably shift.

Matt Gilhooly00:33:56

Yeah. And it's. So do you, when you tell your story, do you think, oh, why did I do that? Or are you still like, understanding of that version of you?And that might be a really rude question. So I don't even know.

Jenn Todling00:34:09

I, I can understand it. Like, I think when people hear my story, like, I think they appreciate that honesty.And when they reflect that to me, I think there's like, like maybe there's something I should have not felt comfortable recognizing that. Right. Because I think I'm just really honest that it wasn't easy to, to give up or to walk away completely.And I think from the external, I think people might have thought it should be easier or it's more clear cut. And it just wasn't for me.And I think my situation was unique because there was a volatility and a chronic illness, so it was hard to know like, what was driving that volatility. So I try and give myself just a lot of grace because I can now, looking back, say, okay, I, I don't. I mean, there.Part of me, yes, wishes I could have left a little bit earlier and maybe there would have been different repercussions from that. But I left when I was ready, I guess.

Matt Gilhooly00:35:07

No, I. And that question wasn't to push you one way or another.I think I, I look back on certain decisions that I made when I was deep in a grief period or deep in a depression or wherever, whatever part of the roller coaster I was on, and I'm like, if I had the opportunity to do that again, I think I might have done it a little differently. And I, I get stuck sometimes putting a little shame on myself for the way that I did certain things. And that's okay.I mean, I, I'm a human, so I'm gonna feel certain things and I'm gonna feel that way. And so just curious, if you look back and you have certain feelings about that. But it sounds like you feel confident that that was the journey that.That you were meant to take in the way that you did it or in the way that you got out of that situation for yourself.

Jenn Todling00:35:55

Yeah. I mean, I wish I had left earlier.

Matt Gilhooly00:35:58

Do you think it would have been possible?

Jenn Todling00:36:00

I don't know. I don't know, to be honest with you. Like, I.I think I had, like, been trying, and I had thought about it and there had been some different, you know, moments earlier. But I think I needed the diagnosis to be. To be honest with you, because that made me feel like I at least completed. It was like my capstone.Like, I found you a diagnosis. I can't take you to the next journey, but I got you here. And so I think if that had happened earlier, maybe that would have shifted things.But I needed to feel for myself, right or wrong, that. That I had helped support that.

Matt Gilhooly00:36:31

I mean, I think that's all a product of how you grew up, the. The circumstances you were in, the environment that you navigated towards, and how, you know, I think all the things that you formed growing up.I think if you were a different person, maybe you do a different thing. But, yeah, you knew what you needed to do to feel comfortable enough. And I'm sure the therapist helped with this. I'm sure.You know, seeing that other people have gone through similar things and have come through on the other side okay. Or doing very well is also a helpful, validating feeling that, like, life won't be over if you choose to leave.You can do this on your own, and you will be happy again. So I think all those pieces play into it. It's. I often play the sliding doors moment. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie.

Jenn Todling00:37:17

I love that movie.

Matt Gilhooly00:37:18

Me too. But I think it's because my first life shift moment was such a sliding doors kind of situation. Like, it was a motorcycle accident had she left.So I always play the games. Like, had she left a day later, she wouldn't have been in the same spot, you know, like. And all those things. And I think back into, like, how that.I mean, it's probably a dangerous game to play for the human emotion, but at the same time, it's a very interesting one. And it's hard to not go down that. That road.

Jenn Todling00:37:42

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly00:37:42

So I wasn't trying to point or guilt you into any feelings, not to.

Jenn Todling00:37:46

Do too many, like, regret moments, because it's all, what can you do? It all led me to this point. Right. I can't.

Matt Gilhooly00:37:55

No.And I think it's a learning experience, too, because now you know what you needed to do in those particular moments, and then you do better in similar circumstances moving forward. Hopefully not the same experiences, but the way you feel could be in a different experience. Right.So I think, you know, if we can get to the place where we're lucky enough to reflect on those and how we did it and how we might want to do it a different way next time, I think we just become better at being ourselves and trusting ourselves and creating the boundaries and all the things that came along with it.

Jenn Todling00:38:28

100%. Yeah. You learn to, in your body what doesn't feel good.And if you can pay attention to that afterwards and sort of be like, okay, I don't even know why I'm not feeling good. But that's just telling me this is a no. Like, it's just a no, then it just gives you a different source of wisdom to tune into.

Matt Gilhooly00:38:44

So when you got out and you felt like it was done, what did life start to look like for you? Did it. Was it all sunshine and rainbows? Did. Like, how did. How did life start working out for you?

Jenn Todling00:38:57

It was a perfect sunshine, rainbow, unicorn. Perfect. So I spent a year still in California and kind of was adjusting to learning myself again, to be honest with you. Right. Like, I didn't know.You know, I had a hard time making decisions because everything was sort of analyzed. And so I was like, do I want to go visit my family? Do I want to spend my money on this? Like, is it okay? Like, I just. Just had to sort of re learn.And again, I got married at 20, right. So I had never really had this independent adult experience. You know, I lived in the college dorm for a year, but that. It's not quite the same.And so I'm trying to, like, figure out life, right? Living on my own in an apartment, spending time with friends, starting to date again. Right. Like, just kind of exploring that.And so I had this really amazing year of. Of roller coasters, navigating that in Seal Beach, California.And it also just healed me because I lived, like, three blocks from the oce and so I could walk to the beach. That gave me sort of the courage to say, okay, I'm kind of ready for a new adventure. And I was still employed, right. Still doing my corporate career.And so I had been doing that now for eight years. And so I was ready for something different. And I had a bunch of different opportunities.And the one that really, like, felt like home for me was New York City. And so I had this opportunity to move to New York City for three years to do this rotation in a different group.And, and I, and I did it and I moved, you know, cross country, sold my car, you know, move into this place. I know nobody. And that was sort of the beginning of this really beautiful next chapter where I found dance again.This time it wasn't the ball, the ballet studio was ballroom. But I started to open up my creativity. I started to really embark in this, my passions. Right. Because I was.Everything was so black and white for so long. I was living life in color. And that doesn't come without challenges. Right.When you're starting something new, I mean, you're really outside your comfort zone. But it was this really, really beautiful three years that helped me figure out who I was again. Right.So it's almost like just reconnecting with my 19 year old self who was there.

Matt Gilhooly00:41:09

You were living for yourself for like the first time in a while.

Jenn Todling00:41:12

Yeah. And it was just really beautiful experience where I kind of had to experience my dreams in a different way.

Matt Gilhooly00:41:20

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that it makes total sense because you spent 10 years living your life for someone else essentially, you know, and now you have this opportunity which I'm sure is scary at times. And it's funny when you were saying your analysis paralysis moments of like, should I do this or that?Meanwhile, I'm thinking of the version of you, when you show up for work, making all, probably making all these huge big decisions, like, I know what to do here, I know how to make that decision. And then in what we really want is where we struggle, like, should I do this or that? And it's like, whatever, what do you want to do?And you're like, wait, but that's not black or white. Like there's emotion involved in that.

Jenn Todling00:42:00

Well, and it's easier sometimes to just follow the path, right? Because it's like, here is the path laid out for you, like you said, right? It's like, okay, this is my order. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.Where, when you're kind of more in like, how do I want to live my life? Or how do I want to craft it? How do I want to design it? Like, that's a blank sheet of paper. And so it's like, where, where do you start? Right?Like somebody give me, is there a template? Is there a template? Right, like, where's my template? And so that was sort of this sort of experiment too, of like. And I did other things, right.I was taking Italian classes and writing classes. And I was like, what. What are the things that are interesting? Me. So you heard I want to design that.

Matt Gilhooly00:42:35

Throwing the spaghetti on the wall of, like, the things you can do now because you had no one else to answer to but yourself, essentially, with your decision. Yeah.

Jenn Todling00:42:44

And traveling, like, I think I went to 30 countries in, like, three years. I was like, all right, where. Where do I want to go? And five countries a year, and let's go. It was just. I was just so hungry.

Matt Gilhooly00:42:54

What did you learn most about yourself in. In that adventure, if you will. It is totally an adventure.

Jenn Todling00:43:01

Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest lesson that I learned was trusting my intuition. So I knew at 20 that I didn't want to get married, and I ignored that.And. And I knew I ignored that because I didn't have the voice to say, I don't want to do this. And so I learned that lesson the hard way.And going through sort of this experience and traveling and dancing and just discovering myself again helped me realize, like, what is it that I want? And entrusting my gut on that a little bit. So, again, tuning into my body, if something's saying no here, like, it's a no, and that's enough.And so I really learned sort of those boundaries. I learned how to say no. Right.And just because I don't want to, I don't need to tell you some reason that you're going to feel good about, like, I just don't want to. I'm not available. And so that was really big for me because I did not say no. Right. For 10 years in that marriage, it was like, what do you need?What do you need?

Matt Gilhooly00:43:55

Probably before that either.

Jenn Todling00:43:56

Even before. Right, Exactly. And so it was like, actually, no is a really powerful word.And when you say no, then it allows you to say yes to what you really want to do. And so I think that was a big part of my journey.

Matt Gilhooly00:44:09

And then, I mean, you said, you are a mom and you're married now. So I would imagine that venturing into that space, was it scary, or were you ready for it? Because you kind of felt, oh, I.

Jenn Todling00:44:22

Called my therapist again. I was like, I think I'm getting married, and I'm kind of freaking out.Like, I'm freaking out because I kind of done this before and it didn't work out. And he was just so.He was actually really good with each stage of my dating where I was like, I think I met someone, and I was like, I don't know what to do, you know? And he would just kind of give me like gentle guides. And he was like, it is normal to freak out when you're engaged because this is a big commitment.Right. And here's what that looks like. And. But I knew when I met my now husband, like, it was a completely different experience.And we also had a longer time to get to know each other. I vetted him with as best as I can. You know, I'm like, here's your 40 questions.You know, like, let's, let's really, like, here's the things that matter. You know, he honored my boundaries. Like, I tested him in those ways. Right. And so it, it, it felt intuitively like this is a, this is my person.But I still freaked out because I was, I didn't want to screw it up.

Matt Gilhooly00:45:21

Well, and you, I mean, going into it too, you probably knew more of who you were 100% and what you actually wanted out of someone. So that's interesting. Did you share any of your past with him? So he was fully aware of the.

Jenn Todling00:45:37

Okay, yeah. I mean, there's things that I probably haven't shared that I don't think he needs to know, but enough to sort of be like he.So like even like getting a prenup, right. I was like, I need a prenup. And there are reasons for that. And you know, like, this is important to me. And he's like, fine.So, like, there were certain, you know, elements. But the thing that was ironic is we met sort of on that five year anniversary of that moment with the book.And so I was thinking about that of like, what did the, what was that five year. And that was when we met and became friends.And so like, that life, you know, when we, we were together about a year and a half before we got married, so it wasn't like the longest courtship. And then we had our daughter two years later.Now we've been together nine years, you know, so it's almost, I tell them it's almost my longest marriage. Like, we have like one more year and then it will be.

Matt Gilhooly00:46:25

But it's your happiest.

Jenn Todling00:46:26

It's my happiest. Yeah. And we're definitely. There's a different level of partnership and honoring, like, we're very much honoring each other's needs and passions.And he's been so supportive with my redesign and just all of that.

Matt Gilhooly00:46:39

So as you, as you started to go into that relationship, did you find that any of you was like kind of regressing back to the old version of you, or were you fully set in this new version?

Jenn Todling00:46:52

Well, I think it's always an evolution. I would say even before I met him, there was a little of this, like, ebb and flow. Right. Even as I. Through the dance experience.But there definitely were moments I had to check myself and sort of be like, am I following an old pattern, Right. With communication? Because communication for me was one that was, am I being honest about how I feel and transparent?And I honestly, I'm probably still working on that. Like, it's, It's. That's a growth edge for me of completely being honest. But I've definitely gotten better of.Of expressing how I'm feeling and not, like, bottling it down.

Matt Gilhooly00:47:26

No, I think it's. I think it's normal. The part I love is that you kept in touch with your therapist and like, kept.Kept that line of communication open because you knew that there was someone that could help or at least listen. Right. In a. In a way that has helped you in the past.So it's like having a friend on the line, but also you're paying them through your insurance or whatever you're doing at that particular time.But a lot of people myself, I've done this, and I regrettably say it at this current juncture of my life, but I, like, felt that, you know, I did therapy. I got to a place where I was feeling really good, and then I was, like, graduated. I'm done, and I'm done, and then I was great. But there are.There are ebbs and flows in life, and when you're in the part, it's like, man, I wish I hadn't graduated. I wish I could.And then it's a challenge to kind of get back into it because now you have to find someone new or you have, you know, wherever, whatever the situation may be. But I love that you kept that. That communication open and you knew to touch base when you needed it, to kind of navigate this.This better, more fulfilled version of Jen as she operates. In this. This new relationship that you're doing.

Jenn Todling00:48:41

Yeah.And I think I had a few sessions with him because he did, you know, phone consultations while I was in New York, so I could kind of had some periodic touch points. And then when I. So I. I met my husband in D.C. so after New York, I moved to D.C.and when I was sort of in the senior executive role, I got an executive coach. And so I think that helps then support me through the transition to become a senior executive to becoming a mom.

Matt Gilhooly00:49:07

And.

Jenn Todling00:49:07

And I still have a coach. And I. And I have that feeling too. Like, you do where I'm like, like, I don't need it all the time, but monthly, I need someone to support me.And so I've just learned, like, that just needs to be part of my support plan because I need that additional person outside of my family and friends. And so I think that's a, that's a fair point of.It might look different and maybe the cadence is less frequent, but having that additional therapist or a coach, like, it.

Matt Gilhooly00:49:34

Keeps the door open.

Jenn Todling00:49:35

Yeah, it just helps us.

Matt Gilhooly00:49:37

Yeah. I'm just gonna slap my hand now, just putting it out there for everyone to hear. It's, it's, it's in the, I have it on my, my list of things to do.I love it, but no, I, it sounds like it, but I'm not gonna, I'm here I am making assumptions again. Are you a more confident person now than you were when you were in your 20s in that marriage?

Jenn Todling00:49:57

For sure.

Matt Gilhooly00:49:58

And do you, are you still in a analysis paralysis type vibe? Or do you, do you make better, stronger decisions for yourself these days?

Jenn Todling00:50:09

I definitely make stronger decisions. Like I said, I think I've learned to tune. I'm kind of, I go deep in the analysis.You know, even like yesterday I spent the whole day like, I want to go to California. I need to see the ocean. And I'm like, here's all the, you know, where I'm going to do it, where I'm going to go all the things.And then I just have to step back and be like, okay, what does my gut feel? Where are my energy drawn? Then just do that. And I did that and I'm like, okay, booked it, like, done.And so there, there is kind of an in and out, right. So I can go deep in and then I step back. But I definitely feel a lot more confident. And I, and I tune into my body.Like, I know I keep saying that, but I, I, there's a lot of wisdom and just like, how does that feel in my body? If I think about saying yes to that, Do I feel this tinge of.

Matt Gilhooly00:50:49

Like, I'm gonna vomit, I'm gonna vomit?

Jenn Todling00:50:51

Yeah. Or I'm like, then maybe I need to.And sometimes that's just because you're nervous and you're stretching yourself, but you kind of need to know, is it this? The. Like, I'm on the growth edge or I'm at the, like, this is a no and just let it be a no.

Matt Gilhooly00:51:05

So you're, you know, you're an evolved human in the last 20 years or so. What made you Want to write your book? And what is your book focused on? Like, why, why, why be an author?

Jenn Todling00:51:17

I know, right? Like, three years later, I'm like, oh, yes, that was a lot. Well, I wanted to share this story. So, you know, I.I felt that I always wanted to share this story and kind of the sort of before and after that, we just walked through. I always thought it would sort of be this leadership development book, right? Here's my top 10 tips to live your life fully, blah, blah, blah.And so during the pandemic, I kind of met coaches, and there was a conversation where it was like, hey, I think there's a path here for you to be an author. And I had sort of forgot that I like to write. Like, I had a blog, and. And I was like, I need to tell my story.And someone had told me, like, you're not removed enough from the situation yet to write it. And this was now, like, almost 10 years removed.I'm like, I'm removed enough now that I can write this story without, like, crying or, you know, like, having a lot of big emotions. And my husband went to Brazil to visit his family, and I took.Put my daughter still in school, and I took the staycation, and I just explored writing scenes, and I had so much fun. And I was, like, cracking myself up at these misadventures I had had and these stories. And I was like, I need to write this book.And so I joined, like, a writing a memoir writing program to provide some, like, structure and accountability. And I just was, like, driven, right? It was like the to do list at me, right? Like, this is going to be done by the end of the year.I'm going to publish it in three months. And it was done by the end of the year. It was a very messy first draft, and I sent it to my book coach. I'm like, I'm ready to be published.And she's like, no, you're not. You need a lot of help.And so then I hired, like, a developmental editor, and we went through the process of, like, trying to distill my whole life into, you know, something cohesive as a theme. And that was an interesting journey because it's your life, you know, not just your writing on display. It's like, why did you make that choice?I'm like, I don't know. And so you learn through that process. And then I found this beautiful publisher I wanted to work with, and they accepted me.And so that's been the last year and a half of that, which is its own journey. Publishing, marketing, like it's its own beast. And so a month from now, or, like, you know, soon in this.This world, the book is going to be in everyone's hands. And I actually have my final copies that came this week. And so it's very. I mean, kind of to our point.Conversation earlier, I didn't really share this story a lot. Right. I didn't talk about it when I was in new. People didn't even know I was divorced. Right. It was this kind of hidden part of myself. And.And this is my first time really publicly talking about it and owning it as something that is part of who I am. And there's value there, I hope, for others, through inspiration. So it's been a long journey, but it's. It's been a pretty fun ride.And so I'm just excited to see what resonates and, you know, how people see themselves in this story.

Matt Gilhooly00:54:08

Yeah, no, I think it's beautiful. I. I think there's so much power in story to hear someone else's story and be inspired by it, be validated by it, whatever it may be.But I'm curious how story, like, sharing your story has changed you. Do you feel a change by vocalizing or writing this all out? How do you feel?

Jenn Todling00:54:29

Well, 100.And like I said, when I went through the editing process, it helped me connect some dots for myself of, like, you know, I didn't have a lot of mentors growing up. You know, I didn't have a lot of people that were necessarily guiding me in certain ways. And so I. I kind of made some choices on my own. Right.And so it's like, maybe that would have helped to have some of those mentors earlier or here's why that was so complex. Right? And here's. I really had to, like, dig beneath the surface.And so I felt like that's helped me understand myself better and just give myself some grace. Like, there's.I think there's a lot of grace I just had to give myself through this process and then also realizing that all of our stories matter and that big or small, like, it's been really beautiful to see how it's resonated with people. And sometimes it surprised me. I'm like, I actually think I wrote a really good book.You know, when I read, I'm like, actually, I think this is actually really good. You know, and so I think I just was like, I got. Or people will say it's raw and honest. And I'm like, oh, I guess it is.Because to your point, we're not always completely, like, unfiltered. And I think I'm pretty unfiltered in this, this book as much as is needed to. To share the story. And I think people appreciate that.So that's been an interesting takeaway of just like, the honesty resonates because.

Matt Gilhooly00:55:42

No, I think it does, because I think we are. I mean, as I said before, like, we're used to seeing these curated type things and that's not how any of us really live our lives. Right?And so this, the messier, unfiltered, honest elements are the things people are going to gravitate towards because it's not the things that are being curated in the other spaces that we're existing in. I mean, I think it's. You said every story matters. It's so funny to me.And funny is not the right word, but it's so interesting to me when people will reach out about an episode. You know, I'll listen to episode from my own experience, right? Like, I relate to people's stories if they kind of resonate with my own experiences.And so I'm like, yeah, that episode is totally about this. Like, in my mind, someone comes to me and they're like, oh, my God. When so and so said this, I was like, that's the part.We don't know how our stories are going to affect other people. And it could be.It's like you opening that book and seeing those random words put in that order affected how you approach the next days coming after that. So I always, I'm like, if you're ready to share your story, share it with anyone that's.That's willing to listen because we don't know who else is overhearing that and how that might make them feel. Like they're not weird, they're not alone, they're not whatever.I keep saying weird because I talked to some woman on my show before and she said something that I thought I was so weird for thinking in my teens about my dead mom. And she had a similar experience. I was like, I'm not weird. Like, yeah, it's normal.And so, you know, I think, I love that you pushed through what you grew up feeling like you couldn't tell everyone all the details. And now you're gonna put this out into the world. By the time that this episode is out, what is the pub date for your book?

Jenn Todling00:57:33

April 29th.

Matt Gilhooly00:57:34

So it's gonna be out shortly, I think shortly after or around the time that this episode comes out. So, I mean, I think that's beautiful. You're, like, releasing it into the world. Does it feel like a release? Do you feel lighter from putting it out?

Jenn Todling00:57:46

Yeah, I do. And so the date is also International Dance Day, which I was intentional with. Sort of like, this is. Is this is.And I'm gonna spend it at my daughter's school. I'm like, she's gonna be where we're gonna celebrate together. Yeah, there's something really beautiful that's happening. And.And I think there was a lot of fear and shame and other things right around it through the years, but now I'm like, you know what? This is a beauty. I'm celebrating. It's a celebration because even just publishing a book is like a journey in its own.But the courage I feel like that I have and being honest and sharing this, I'm really proud of. To be honest with you.

Matt Gilhooly00:58:22

If. If you. If this version of you could go back to the Jen that was walking up to that library that one day before you.Before you open that book, is there anything you would want to tell her?

Jenn Todling00:58:32

Oh, that's a good question, Matt. Wow. I would just say take the leap. It's worth it.And I think a lot of times, so I do mentioned, I teach at the University of Denver and I also coach my students. Oftentimes we all just need a little push. Like a little push of just, you got this. Go and do it.And so if you're listening to this and you need to hear like, you got this. Go and do it. Like, let this be your sign. Because I have seen transformation with literally me just saying, I'm cheering you on. You got this.People just unleash their authentic self in a new way. And so I think sometimes we just need that little reminder that we got this. And so I think that would have been that message I would share.

Matt Gilhooly00:59:17

I always look at that.It's probably my own upbringing, but I look at that as almost like someone giving you permission, 100% permission to try to do it, you know, And I think that's.It's so important and it's not unlike what a lot of people would that have been on this show before would say to that pre life shift version of themselves. So thank you for sharing your story in this way. It's really.I mean, I never could have imagined that I would have these types of conversations, you know, if I look back to that teenage version of myself. So thank you for being willing to do so.

Jenn Todling00:59:49

Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Matt Gilhooly00:59:51

If people want to get in your Circle find you find your book. What's the best way to to be a part of your world?

Jenn Todling00:59:59

Yeah, so my website has everything so gentoddling.com, jen with two N's and I also have a weekly substat, Soul Spark with Jen Todd Lane. If you want to join my newsletter and stay up to date with all the fun author musings that are happening or about to happen. So I'd love to connect.

Matt Gilhooly01:00:17

Are you on social media for people to follow you or you do that?

Jenn Todling01:00:20

So I'm on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. So those are the best ways to connect with me gen toddling in all of those places.

Matt Gilhooly01:00:27

Well, I'm gonna offer this up whether you like it or not, but if there's someone out there listening and they, they resonate with a part of your story and they feel like they want to reach out to you and just say hi, thank you for this, that or the other, I'm going to encourage them to do it. Is that okay?

Jenn Todling01:00:41

Please do. And if you go to my website and the contact page, there's my email. So you just send me an email and I'm happy to connect and support you.

Matt Gilhooly01:00:49

Well, thank you again for, for sharing your story in this way and I'd like to thank people for listening to the show. I've.If I could tell the 8 year old version of myself that it was going to be okay, he wouldn't believe it, but you know, I really, really proud of the journey that he's been on with this podcast. I kind of let him sit beside me.So thank you for listening and if, if you know someone in your life that needs to hear Jen's story, we would love it if you share this episode with them.Like we said, every story is important and there might be something that Jen said, it might not be a main part of her story, but it might just be something she said that would resonate with the people around you. So we would love that. And I think I will say goodbye now. So thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast.I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks, Jen.

Jenn Todling01:01:32

Thanks, Matt.

Matt Gilhooly01:01:45

For more information please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.