Empathy, Activism, and Personal Growth: Creating Change and Hope | Amy Glassman

00:00
I had all these big dreams. I wanted to be a podcaster. I wanted to work in public radio. I got my undergrad degree in a journalism field and I just couldn't do it. I graduated. I thought that was my ticket and I even had a wonderful internship that would have opened that door for me. I literally could not afford to work in that field. I had a mortgage and real adult bills and they pay so little. I could not.

00:29
get into that field as a full-time job and survive. So I really didn't know what to do next. I had no idea. I had worked in nonprofits for a long time. It's always been work that, you know, around social change. And I still, you know, love doing that, but I just, I always had this dream of becoming a journalist. And when that didn't work, I didn't know what to do next.

00:54
My guest this week is a former UF classmate of mine. Her name is Amy Glassman, and she's a writer, she's a communications professional, and really she's a true advocate for social change, which is super inspiring. Throughout her career, she's had lots of different pivots in her life that's really probably, or most definitely, made her who she is today. She shares her personal journey of growth, resilience, difficulties, and eventually finding her true calling.

01:23
We talk about the challenges that she faced when she was working in these low paying, non-profit jobs, but really wanting to be there, but having that financial uncertainty that came with it. Despite these difficulties, Amy discovered the power of empathy as something that can be a catalyst for change, which ultimately led her to find her current role, which was super inspiring to hear. She opens up about the obstacles she encountered along the way, including going through depression,

01:52
or some moments of depression and some setbacks. But her story of perseverance and determination should show us the strength of the human spirit. We all have likely experienced some of these moments before, but it reminds us that we have the power to make a difference in our own lives and in the world around us. Before we get to the episode, I wanna thank Traci, Miki, and Emily for supporting two episodes a month, and Bryan, Nic, Gale, and Sari for sponsoring one episode a month.

02:22
through the LifeShift Patreon page. We are getting close to the next t-shirt giveaway, so that's cool. If you'd like to support the show directly, please consider joining the Patreon, which is just patreon.com slash the LifeShift podcast. Thank you for everything. Now let's jump into my conversation with Amy Glassman. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:56
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with a friend and former classmate, Amy. Hey, Amy. Hey. So I don't even know how long ago that was. It feels like time doesn't exist anymore. I don't know. Do you know when that was? Oh, man, that was, gosh, not this past spring. So the spring before. So spring 2022. Yeah. So we took podcasting class together with Heidi Kirby, who was on episode.

03:26
19, I think, so of the show. And now we're recording episodes in the 80s. And we took this podcasting class together. And I don't know how many of us launched a podcast from it. Gosh, I don't know. I can I came up with a concept and since have come up with others, but life just keeps happening. And before I know it, I don't actually do the thing. Yeah, that.

03:53
Conceptually, I'd like to start a podcast called I Did the Thing and actually talk to people who think of things and then actually do them, not just put them on paper and then let them collect dust. And at the time, you were kind of coming up with an idea that centered around more of a narrative, right, of going around the country with something related to climate or something along those lines? So When Devastation Rains is the podcast name. And

04:21
I did do a couple of episodes in undergrad for that podcast concept, and that was covering Hurricane Irma and the fallout in the area that I live in, sharing people's stories. I wanted to do the same thing to address climate all over the country and allow people to share their stories to really illuminate what's going on with climate change without having to call it by its name. Then you started working with Aspen Institute.

04:49
doing stuff along those lines. So you're still kind of in that space, right? I am, yeah. I get to work in climate every day now, so it's wonderful. That's awesome. Yeah, I like how that comes together. And I think we originally talked about having you on the show pretty early on. I feel like around the time maybe that I was graduating, which was I graduated in August 2022. And so we were talking about that time, and then just life happened to you, and as it continues to do, it seems. But.

05:18
You know, we were talking before recording that you do have a lot of significant life shift pivotal moments in your life. And the challenge that I have of my guests is like, can we focus on one that we feel is the most pivotal, which, you know, I know you've been going back and forth and you were gonna tell me before we started recording. And I was like, just don't tell me, we're just gonna let it unfold as it goes.

05:44
But I think the ones that I know of, if you choose any of those, I feel any of those stories are going to resonate with a lot of people. And I think there's such importance in storytelling, just like your ideas of, or even the show that you did around climate change, or the ideas that you had there, getting those stories out there so that other people don't feel so alone in their circumstance, or can understand someone else's circumstance.

06:14
is really important. So just thank you for being willing to share whatever you're about to share. Well, hopefully, hopefully, I don't disappoint. But it, you know, you kind of already touched on where I was hoping to go, which is grad school. It kind of happened at a perfect time in my life when I needed it the most. And it really changed my entire life course. And everything that's happening to me currently today, the beginning of that was me.

06:43
choosing to go back to grad school. So yeah, that's what I'd like to dive into. Cool. Well, why don't you, before you tell us that specific moment about whatever it is around grad school, maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this so that we can kind of see how this one moment centered around grad school can bring us to who you are today and what's made you you, this current 2023 version of you.

07:12
Yeah, sure. I had been floundering post bachelor degree. I finished my undergraduate degree in 2017 in the winter, really at the beginning of 2018. And I had all these big dreams. I wanted to be a podcaster. I wanted to work in public radio. I got my undergrad degree in a journalism field and I just couldn't do it. I graduated. I thought that was my ticket. And

07:41
I even had a wonderful internship that would have opened that door for me. But I literally could not afford to work in that field. I had a mortgage and real adult bills and they pay so little. I could not get into that field as a full-time job and survive. So I really didn't know what to do next. I had no idea. I had worked in nonprofits for a long time. Another non-

08:09
high paying job. Yeah, but it's always been meaningful work. It's always been work around social change. And I still love doing that, but I always had this dream of becoming a journalist. And when that didn't work, I didn't know what to do next. I floundered for a bit. My wife and I, long story short, moved to Asheville, North Carolina. I got my real estate broker's license because there's just no...

08:38
real economy up there. And so I had to kind of create an income for myself, but we love it up there. We love mountains. And so we took a swing and went up there and I gave it a try. I was fine. I was making money. It was great, but I just wasn't fulfilled. I also had some personal holdbacks on contributing to the housing crisis in Asheville and pushing locals out of the market. I just, I really couldn't be part of that. And then the pandemic happened.

09:08
and everything changed again. We weren't really sure what was going to happen next with the economy. We still had our house down in Florida. And so we decided let's go back to our house in Florida, eliminate as much financial responsibility in our life as possible in case everything blows up. And that's kind of where everything started for me. That's where I was at before grad school. I...

09:34
was once again lost, feeling like I invested a whole bunch of myself into what I thought would lead to my career, just like I did in undergrad. And then it all fell apart. Growing up, were you very socially conscious about causes and very into that? No, I actually... How did you fall into that? Yeah, I grew up in a very conservative Christian home.

10:02
I was really into Christianity growing up and just kind of in a very small bubble. I wasn't exposed to a whole lot of different types of people. I didn't really have a grasp of what it felt like to struggle through the lens of people different than me. And basically, my parents found out I was gay and I had to make the choice to not be in their home anymore and moved.

10:30
moved on with my life at a very young age, was on my own for a long time. And I think that that kind of life experience, it changes your perspective. It makes you start to be more empathetic to other people. And that was kind of the beginning of me getting into social change work. I was starting to realize how many people were struggling in so many different ways in the same way, like feeling the same way that I was about life. Because, you know, in your...

10:59
you know, from your growing up, you were suddenly othered, and you felt like what others may feel like to be considered different. Even though we're all humans trying to do the same thing here on this earth, but once you fall out of that bubble, I think you can understand that we don't all get afforded the things that some people in the bubble get afforded, and maybe there is an opportunity.

11:29
that if I have the skills or the money or whatever it may be, perhaps I can help those people because I know what it feels like. So basically you were introduced to empathy. Right, I've always been an empathetic person. I think I just didn't know the problems that were in the world. I was shielded from it. Right, you were isolated. Then I became part of it. And not only did I start to grow.

11:54
empathy for other people because I now realized the problems that were in the world. But I also was offered so much help in my journey from various organizations and people in my community, in the LGBT community and in other communities I found I had to get out of Christianity. It didn't want me and I didn't want to be where I wasn't wanted. But I also still needed a faith. I found a new faith community in Judaism.

12:22
Talk about pivotal moments that we're just like skirting by, you know? Yeah. But it's fascinating because it's important. I think a lot of people that have had moments, like you describe, whether that's being othered in some way or changing your religion, changing your entire what you believe, your belief structure, I think a lot of people that are socially.

12:48
conscious and driven to these nonprofits or doing what you do and Aspen Institute, I think a lot of people have experienced those things. You probably see a lot of people like you around you. Maybe not your exact experience, but having their eyes opened at some point to something more than the world that they live in. So it's just really interesting how people get to that. Yeah, so for me, it was, you know.

13:15
kind of just a whole bunch of things led to me realizing that I wanted to be part of the change that I needed to see in the world. And so I started finding ways to plug into that and I found my place in the nonprofit world in Jacksonville, where I live, Jacksonville, Florida. I'm sorry. Yeah. And I, so for, I know, right? I'm in Orlando. I'm sorry. And so I kind of found my home in that for a long time. But I...

13:45
always had these dreams of getting my college degree. It took me 10 years to get my two-year degree at a community college. You did it. But I did it, and then I got into UF, a very competitive program at UF, and really thrived, and finished my two-year degree there in two years. And I really thought growing up in a low-income home with parents that didn't go to college.

14:12
Nobody in my family had been to college before. I thought this was my ticket, you know? And so I think the letdown on the other side of that was just left me reeling, you know? I just didn't know what to do with myself. That's a good point. I think society, I talk to a lot of people about this, and you're a different generation. You're younger than I am. But I feel like we were sold a bag of goods about college, that you graduate college,

14:41
They're there waiting to give you the job that will pay your mortgage, that will pay your bills, that will do all those things. And we're also told at the same time that we should pursue our dreams. And so here you are checking the boxes. Like I'm really into this. I want to continue doing this kind of work. And I'm going to check the box and go to college. So there my future is laid out. Here it is. So I can understand the letdown when you're like...

15:11
Wait, how much are you going to pay me? I have to do this for free? Because the investment in your education, there's no ROI on that with this particular field, as it is with many fields. I mean, there can be, but it's a lot of legwork. It's a lot of, you know, and if you come from a situation in which you were in that you don't have.

15:36
a solid financial foundation, right? Like you have to do everything on your own. You kind of have to do what you did and like just, you know, work however many, I mean, a lot of people in those industries probably work multiple jobs or do freelance stuff. And I had been for so many years of my life working two or three jobs at a time to afford to live with really no family support or any kind of backup plan. And so for me, yeah, it was just.

16:05
It was like somebody promising you this incredible life experience if you can just do the work, check the boxes, and then you get there, you did everything right, and you're just looking at the same kind of grim position that you were in before you started that whole process. And so, yeah, it was just really tough for me. I wasn't sure what to do. I, yeah.

16:33
The real estate choice was a weird kind of a love field decision. And I'm thankful that in hindsight, everything happened the way it did. And I ended up back here. It definitely wasn't like I moved back to Jacksonville from Asheville and then everything got better. It got so much worse before it got better. So then the next kind of setting scene of what led me to grad school was I had, I hit a wall.

17:01
that summer, so March 2020, we moved back to Jacksonville. By June, I was just a shell of myself. My wife had a fantastic job, and so we weren't struggling for money, and she didn't want me going out and getting COVID somewhere, and so it was kind of limiting my ability to both be social and find my own career path. And I'm a highly social person, and for me,

17:27
I think it just drained the life out of me being at home every day. And I hit a wall and I fell into a very deep depression. I've never experienced verhutshen before. And that was the first time I ever really truly understood the difference between being sad and being depressed, being in a depressive episode. I lost probably 15 or 20 pounds in maybe three weeks to a month. I was not getting out of bed. I was having really a hard time.

17:56
And so my wife and I started talking about how we could start, you know, finding a new reason for me to get up every day. And I was like, you know, what I've always, an alternative to being a journalist for me is I'm really into politics and I thought, you know, I would love to be a speechwriter. I would love to work for politicians and write their speeches. I love a good speech. And so.

18:24
I started looking into grad school programs, thinking if I could find a program that's very specifically going to get me into a career field that I want to be in, that I'm willing to go into it. And so I started exploring political communication programs. And during that process, I came across the public interest communication program at the University of Florida, which is a little bit of political communication, but it also is, it's focused on social change communications and...

18:53
how to get people to care about issues and how to drive change and actually get them to act on the things that need to happen. And I just felt like it was the perfect mixture of everything that I'd previously experienced in life plus what I'd like to be doing. And it just felt like the right fit. So I went for it and it was exactly what I needed. It truly changed the course of my life going back to grad school in a way that undergrad never did for me.

19:23
I think I took the lessons learned from undergrad of not really using my time wisely and being very strategic about my time as a student and getting me where I need to go. I decided when I started graduate school that I would have a theory of change that led me to something beyond graduation that was substantial. And so I just started to really look for every opportunity I could to chart my path and use that.

19:52
time as a student, you know, as my freebie to get in the door somewhere where they wouldn't, you know, accept me if I was just a job seeker. And so that's kind of where everything started. So you apply. So you're in this deep depression. How do you get your head around? Because, you know, you felt after your undergraduate degree, you felt like, okay, that was a letdown, like

20:18
nothing happened, and then you try to make things work and you realize that you weren't able to continue to pursue your passion because it just wasn't affordable. It just couldn't happen. And then you find yourself in this really deep depression and having, I've never been clinically diagnosed, but having had moments like you describe, it's really hard to get out of that. It's really hard to.

20:45
to get out of that and you have the support of your wife, which is fantastic. But how did you wrap your mind around like, well, what if this is just another, am I gonna do all this and then it's gonna end up like the last time? Like, was there any of that that kind of, was there any, because when you're in a depressive state, I feel like everything you do is against yourself. Like you kind of just talk yourself out of everything. And so like that part is really interesting to me because you found the strength to push through that wall. Like, how did you do that?

21:15
Uh, you know, my wife tells me all the time that I'm so much more resilient than she is. And I don't really understand that. I think everybody has the option or opportunity to be resilient. It's just a choice. But it's really hard. It's a hard choice. For me, having my wife be so supportive and helpful and patient was really pivotal in in helping me feel safe to.

21:44
get myself out of that. But also, I think we both looked at grad school as an opportunity for me to refocus my career, but it was also something for me to do during the pandemic. That's why I did it. Right. So it wasn't just about the outcome of what would happen with my career once I get that degree. It was also about me having a healthy outlet during the pandemic when we were really stuck at home all the time.

22:12
and I needed a project. I needed something to put my energy into and for me grad school gave me the opportunity. While I understand it was a costly thing to invest myself into, I found a program that was really affordable. UF has a great online program and for me it was just all the stars aligned. It was something I could afford. They removed the GRE requirement which was a huge

22:42
I don't know. I've always been this way. I've always been kind of like... Was it gradual? Like I know you said like it was hard to get out of bed. Was it like one day you were like okay let's go or was it like fine I'll do this today or I'll look but nothing's going to be there you know was there more of a switch moment or was it kind of like a roll up the hill kind of thing?

23:06
think it was a little bit of both. It was gradual in that, you know, I took my time to find where I wanted to go to school. It was also a switch moment when I decided that's what I would do. And beyond that, I did a lot of other little things that helped me get up every day. That's good. So some of this, you know, I'm kind of hyper aware of myself. That was probably helpful. You're like, maybe I should shower today.

23:34
Right. Right. Well, also my mindset. And so I started doing like listening to meditative sessions through like the Calm app. I started making a point to get outside, even if it's to sit on my back patio every day and get some sunshine. I started walking. I made a goal for myself walking 10,000 steps every single day because I could walk in my neighborhood. There's no COVID on the sidewalk. And so, you know, those little things, those little choices.

24:01
gave me the energy I needed to keep pursuing a new path. And then on top of that, I found the right program to apply to. And so for me, it all kind of aligned the way that it needed to for me to start school. And then that's, you know, getting in school wasn't what changed everything. It was actually my experience in school and a particular professor that I just adore who gave me just the best advice that just...

24:29
changed my mindset. And sometimes when you talk about a life shift, there's moments where people either challenge themselves to do something hard and they overcome it, or they've been faced with a barrier and they overcome it against all odds. Or sometimes it's just something tiny that you think isn't that important, but it's like the light bulb goes off in your head and you just see everything different. And for me, those kind of moments are what

24:59
or what led me to where I am now. And so, yeah, so I started grad school that summer and I just really, really, my first class was with Professor Sam Snyder. I'm going to call him out because he's just fabulous and he set the tone for my entire program at UF. The first class in my program, introductory class, but he just had this, this really authentic way about him of

25:28
connecting with people and he brought our class together in such a way that I made friends pretty quickly and kept those friends all through grad school, still am friends with those people. He also made himself very available to us. We met weekly just to talk about life and stuff and the things we want to work on. And just that kind of mentorship really helped steer me in the right direction.

25:54
And I've always struggled with anxiety. Previously, I said I'd never experienced depression, but I do experience anxiety. I have some serious anxiety issues. And I was talking to him about that one day, and I was like, I just feel like I don't, I feel like I second guess everything in my life. And I always feel like when I walk in a room of people who have their stuff together.

26:20
I'm the one that doesn't and that nobody ever knows that. Like I'm it's like this little secret that I have that like I'm just barely hanging on or I'm barely you know qualified to even be in the room with other people. And he was like Amy we are all faking it. We're all faking it. He was like we're all we're all just showing up every day and hoping for the best. Even the people who you think have it the most together

26:50
people who get up and plan their day the same way you do and prepare their notes before they walk into something right before they walk into something and aren't sure if their ideas are going to happen. And it was just, it was such a very simple kind of piece of advice and sort of obvious, but it wasn't obvious to me. And he told me a great story about when he was in grad school and kind of his experience with a professor who

27:19
he learned that from. And I think it just shed the imposter syndrome that I had been walking around with for my entire life. It's like a light bulb. Yeah, realizing that we were all imposters in our own minds. Like I said before, we're all just trying to do the same. We're all just trying to get through this, this thing called life, right? And we're all just making up as we go. There's no, you know, like there's no rules. Exactly. And so...

27:49
I don't know, for me, that was the moment when I realized I didn't need to ask permission from anybody. Or second guess your goals or what you want to do with yourself. Right. And learning in my program about all of the incredible, like we were studying the civil rights movement and all the incredible people that participated in that. They went one day from being the average Joe citizen to...

28:19
being part of history, but they didn't know that they were part of history when it was happening. And now they're part of history. And so for me, I started to realize if I want to see change in the world and I want to I want this, this our current, you know, thing that we're going through to be part of history, then the only thing holding me back is myself at the time, like during all of this, when all of this happened, where I live in Florida.

28:47
Florida Department of Transportation decided to turn off the rainbow bridge lights that celebrate pride in our town that are over the Acosta Bridge. We have several bridges in Jacksonville, but there's one called the Acosta Bridge and the bridge has lights all the way across it. It's beautiful. And they light it up for various occasions throughout the year with all different colors to celebrate things. And in the summer in June, they light it up in rainbow lights for pride.

29:17
There are a few other bridges in Florida that also have the same thing. And the beginning of Pride started that summer, that first summer of grad school. And the next day they turned the lights off and it became national headlines. It was like, you know, the state decided to turn off these Pride lights with no seeming good explanation for it.

29:41
And so kind of overnight, I took that new sense, that new found sense of, I can do this, you know, that I literally just like within the last week discovered and said, got on Twitter and decided to just dive into pushing back against this. Started organizing online overnight, a protest for the on the bridge created an event.

30:08
page on Facebook, we got like over a thousand people within two or three hours saying that they were coming to this thing. And then I just started like spam posting stuff about it on Twitter anywhere I could and including in a post to FDOT and overnight they decided to turn the bridge lights back on. And so it was like my first big win. The effect changed. Yeah. Right. Which I don't know, it just...

30:36
It gave me a confidence boost, but it also was just a huge win for our community. We ended up still having the protest because why not? We already had everybody there. We turned it into a pride celebration on the bridge. And now we're in our third, I just organized the third year of it. It's an annual event in our city now. So, yeah. So it's like that, that your, your instructors said something like you said, seemingly common, seemingly common sense, like something that we can all.

31:03
probably eventually come to on our own. But it was like right moment, right time. You were feeling, you know, sometimes it's, like I've talked to people about like they're reading a book that they could have been reading at any point in their time. And like one sentence just was like, oh, it hits at the right time, you know? Like, and so that's just, you know, it almost sounds like it gave you this confidence a little bit more to like, or the confidence to be confident.

31:30
and be okay with being confident, if that makes sense? To like, maybe you were already confident, but like, this was the permission. This was like, shed the second guessing, shed all this stuff, you know your stuff, you know what you're doing, you know what you're passionate about, you know how to go about it. And then you did this event, or we'll call it an event, but you did this protest online and everything, and then you get the win. So then it's like, like further permission, right? Like, oh.

31:59
So when I do lean in, things can happen in a way that I want them to happen. So let's go, let's keep going with this. Exactly, yeah. It was, I think, the perfect moment. All of everything I needed to happen happened and I got the win, we got the win as a community. And it also got me re-involved in my community in Jacksonville, which I really needed. I think I needed to find some peace with living.

32:29
here. Still probably do. Yes, but it did. It got me introduced to a lot of new groups in our community. It got me involved in a lot more organizing work and activism. It helped me feel a lot more stable in living back in Jacksonville, my hometown, that I thought I would break free from and I never have, no matter how hard I try. But it also aligns with both parts of you in the sense of your undergraduate you.

32:58
It aligns the skills and the things you learned there, but also the future you that you were projecting towards to be more activist minded or more political or more, you know, like whatever that is. And you're like kind of bridging the messy gap that you had in between. You're kind of like erasing that piece a little bit by bridging those together. Or that's how I see it. Yeah, well, and you know, it got, it kind of got better for me. So.

33:27
I went into the fall semester and felt like I was really in the right place after that. The summer really kind of validated for me that I was in the right place. So many people in my life over the years have been like, Amy, why do you keep trying to get away from working in nonprofits or social change work? Because this is clearly what you're called to do. This is your skill. This is what you should be doing. This is home. Right. And it's sort of like the universe kept.

33:55
drawing me back to that. I tried new things and I just kept getting pulled back. And you were miserable in them too. Right. Pulled back to the place where I started and just with a lot more, you know, college debt. But anyway, I felt like I was in the right place. I really felt like this program would give me a lot more focused skills that I could walk away with. But not only that, I knew it would give me the connectivity to.

34:24
bigger opportunities if I played my cards right. And going into the fall semester, I decided I'm gonna start looking for an internship and really take the time to find the right internship. And then we had a guest lecturer from the Aspen Institute who is now one of my bosses. He is the executive director of the Inter-Jane Environment Program and he and the communications manager came and.

34:52
were guest lecturers in one of my storytelling classes, and talking about climate change, talking about the work that they do, and I just loved it. I loved what they did. It was exciting. An internship opportunity opened up in their communications department, and I reached out because we had just connected via the class, and...

35:15
He was like, you should apply for it. And so I did and I ended up landing the gig. So many things have happened since then. It was a wild ride, but I fell into a rhythm there and I loved it and I found other, I was working in communications, but I found this program called the Future Leaders Climate Initiative, which was kind of in the beginning stages when I had started there. Part of my job was I was helping plan Aspen Ideas Climate, which was...

35:44
a branch off of Aspen Ideas that's held in Aspen, Colorado. This would be held in Miami Beach and it would be addressing climate change. And so I was part of the planning committee to help plan that event. And through that, I found out about the Future Leaders' Climate Initiative, which was holding their first in-person summit alongside that event in Miami. And that was geared towards young climate leaders, 18 to 30 years old.

36:10
They get to come and learn and grow together and make connections, network, and really kind of acts as a launching pad for their career in the climate space. And so I just fell in love with that. To me, it was like exactly what I wanted to be doing with my life. I really wanted to take all of that mentorship and all that support that I received from other people and be able to pay that forward and really help the next generation of passionate climate leaders find their place in the world.

36:39
and kind of skip over all of the hard lessons that are sort of sometimes unnecessary and just hold you back from what you need to be doing in life. And so I made that my goal. They didn't know it yet at the Aspen Institute, but for me, I was going to work in that program. And so I just did my best job I could for the work that I was hired to do. But I also asked if I could pitch in on some of the planning for the communications portion of the programming for the.

37:09
the Fusilier's Climate Summit. And they were like, sure, if you wanna do that, go for it. And so that's what I did. And it was wonderful, both events ended up being great. And at the end of it, at the end of my internship, which ended up being longer than it was initially set out to be, they had asked me if I was interested in staying on in a different position.

37:36
and I had already written up a job description for myself. Good for you. For the program I wanted to work in. And I gave it to my now boss. And I was just like, hey, this is what I really want to do. This is where I want to be. And I absolutely believe in your program and I love it. And I feel like it's where I need to be in my life. You know where to find me if the opportunity ever arises to hire me. And

38:05
So we kind of left on those terms and I was not done with grad school yet. And so that's why I was like, you know, no rush. You know, I know it might take time, you're a new initiative, but if you eventually are looking to fill a new role, this is what I would love to do for you. This is where I think I could add value to your team. And I'm gonna keep going to grad school for right now. So I'm not in a rush, but you know, going back to that beginning of grad school mindset of like, I'm really going to.

38:35
make sure that I plant seeds, that I expect to grow into something and not just throw my seeds in the ocean and walk away. So this was my effort to do that. It was kind of a very bold approach. You shed that worry before, early on. Right. And I think if it weren't for that advice from Sam and then the...

39:02
follow up of a big win in my community. I don't know if I would have had the chutzpah to do what I did, but I did do that. And then I hit another wall, another life shift, Matt. That summer, my internship wrapped up and I found out that I had thyroid cancer and everything had to stop. I had to take a break from work. I had to pause grad school. I did put on the Acostabrid.

39:28
Bridge Pride March, it was the last event that I did before I had my surgery that summer. And they cut up my thyroid there, got rid of the cancer. And it was fine, I got through it. That's good. But I had to pause everything, you know, and so I was worried. You're like, yeah, you were like, I've made all these inroads, everything's working, and my favor in life is like, wait, hold on. Yep, but you know what, I think it was like the universe's way of like imposing some natural patience into me.

39:58
Because I don't know that I would have been as patient about the process of waiting for that job offer as I as I was. Or you might have jumped into something else because you were, you know, like, this is never going to happen. I'm going to, you know, like you were going to reintroduce that worry and that doubting and whatnot. So it gave you something to distract you enough, probably. Yeah, it did. And not not something anyone wants to be distracted by. But.

40:27
It sounds like things are okay now though, right? Yes, everything is good. I recovered well. It took a little while to get back to my normal self, but thyroid cancer is something you can get through. Thankfully, if you're going to have cancer, that's a good one to have, I guess. The shiny way to look at that.

40:48
So at the end of the summer I had recovered from everything pretty much enough that I could go back to work and school and so I did. I started back in classes in the fall and I happened to have a trip planned up to New York and to DC with some friends in the fall and I made plans to meet up with my Aspen former Aspen teammates while I was up there and all of the magic happened that week. I you know we had

41:17
plan to have lunch and my current boss was like, you know, we're heading into the next summit, I could really use your help. Are you interested in coming on maybe part times while you're in school and helping us with the next summit? And I was like, absolutely, yes. So the patience was worth it. Putting myself out there was worth it. Believing in myself and being confident in what I had found there was worth it. And so...

41:45
everything kind of fell into place and from there it was just sort of just writing it all out. I finished grad school, I kept doing good work at my job. At the end of grad school they hired me on full-time and I was also promoted and so now I'm in this place where I have these answers to all these questions that I've been holding on to for so long. These like questions of why I...

42:14
can't find my place in life or why, you know, why everything has to be so hard all the time or, you know, what will happen to me. And for me, it's like, I think grad school taught me that sometimes you have to have more than a dream. You also have to have a plan. You also have to have tenacity. You also have to be confident. You also have to decide to take that risk and stop asking permission. I think that's the.

42:44
the best advice that I could give anyone and it's what I give now, now that I get to mentor young leaders and I get to advocate for them and I get to help them overcome those hurdles and quicker and with some support that I didn't have that, when I was going through those challenges, all it did was set me back in life because I didn't have any support and I didn't really understand how to get through it and I didn't really understand how to.

43:12
connect those dots of getting to my goals quicker. And all of the struggles I've been through in my life, I feel like helped me become a better advocate and mentor for young people now. And I get to be in a position to help them. And my biggest piece of advice to them every time I start a conversation is, stop asking permission for things in life. You don't need to.

43:37
You don't need to ask permission to implement an idea to apply for that job, to DM that person on LinkedIn and introduce yourself out of the blue, to put yourself out there. You don't need to ask permission for that. The more you realize that, the faster you're going to make connections that lead you to your end goal. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like your story, yes, grad school was a big thing.

44:04
Yes, you made all those intentional choices, but you also had these two people in your life that reminded you that you can do these things. Your wife helped you out of that state, right? And was like, hey, I'm gonna support you in whatever you choose to do. I trust you, so you better trust you in what you do. And then your instructor helped you shed that.

44:33
that extra layer of skin that you were hiding behind in some cases. And so these two people impacting your life in this way, had they not done that on those days, maybe you would have continued on doing what you were doing in those moments, too. So there's a lot of impact in thinking about how we can help support other people. And it's lovely to see that that's what you're doing in your day job now is as helping mentor other people, because I think we often hear

45:03
You know, we learn from our mistakes, but it's even better to learn from someone else's mistakes. And that's kind of what you're doing is you're helping others, not that I would call them mistakes in your sense, but your struggles or the things that like held you back in certain moments. But perhaps you wouldn't be here had you not, you know, like you said earlier, had you not had those particular struggles, maybe everything wouldn't be as impactful for you, you know, or everything wouldn't mean as much because.

45:32
you didn't have those moments. So there's a lot of power in your story of one, just like getting the confidence in yourself and like taking action and doing the things that really align with you and really feel right and trust in your gut, but also the importance of having people around you that can drop little nuggets of support or help. And I have, you know.

45:59
Gosh, I could credit so many people with being that for me. There were so many more people than just my wife and my instructor, part of my journey before all this happened, but also throughout grad school as well, my friends at UF, so many other people in my life really poured a lot of love and support into me. And it made me feel like I could, even if everything fell apart, I was still worth something.

46:28
And I think that's another aspect of this, right, is learning that it's okay to fail. And I credit that to my time at the Aspen Institute. I've learned so much from the people I work for and the people I work with about how big ideas come to life. They do a lot of really cool stuff at the Aspen Institute, and it all starts with these like wild.

46:54
you know, ideas of like, what if we did this? And, and it, and it builds off of that. And I think it was the first time I ever saw myself somewhere where it's like, I'm valued for being that kind of person that comes up with wild ideas. I'm valued for, you know, dreaming. Yeah, dreaming big and trying to make something happen. And but it's also totally acceptable for things to not work out. Because that's our that's where we grow and learn, you know, that's where those we

47:22
it's not really a failure, it's just a learning opportunity because now our next idea, we know what not to do and how to execute it even better. And so, yeah, all of these life experiences, all these life shifts, you know, that I said in the beginning of this conversation, I've experienced, I've always wondered why me, right? Why me? Because these life shifts are not always fun, right? They're hard. Most aren't. But now I feel like I have an answer to that, which is

47:52
somebody else can benefit from learning through my experiences. And you've learned a lot. Yeah, absolutely. You've learned a lot through all these journeys. I think the same thing, you know, in my 40s now, I look back on losing my mom as a kid. Had that not happened, all the things after and the person that I am today would not exist, right? You know, like so many things have changed. And am I, do I want, did I want that to happen? No.

48:21
Would I wish that on anyone? No. But I do look back grateful on what I've learned since. Grateful that it's brought me to this place to have this podcast. We wouldn't be having this conversation had that not happened. Lots of mistakes have brought us to our point. And what's interesting about your story is that so many people are floundering in a space, right? Like you were when you guys moved to Asheville and moved back and just.

48:51
And then the pandemic, everyone, global trauma, like at the same time, and someone that's social like you makes it 10 times worse because some people really like just staying home all the time and not seeing people. But someone that's social and that thrives on the energy of others, it can be really hard. And so someone listening to this story is probably in that floundering space. And what they hear from your story is that like,

49:20
Look, we're all just doing the best we can with what we know, and we need to give ourselves, like you said, permission to just do. Do the things that are driving us. As long as it's not hurting anyone or hurting yourself, try it. Do it. Because you're going to make mistakes, and that's OK. You're going to have wins, and that's awesome. And that's going to drive you forward. But your story is like, I'm going to take the reins this time.

49:47
Instead of letting life just kind of go along with it, like we all probably did in undergrad, this time you were like, look, this is going to mean something more. And so I think people hearing this will hopefully maybe take a chance. Just take one chance, that's all it takes. Right, just bet on yourself. Just bet on yourself. And trust yourself. Yep, and be okay with mistakes, be okay with failure.

50:15
be okay with figuring it out as you go along. Because for me right now, I have my happy ending, but this might be the beginning of my next life shift, you never know. And so I just wanna always keep my mindset on like every experience I have is something powerful that's going to help me in the next experience I have. And that's what I've learned. And we always hear like, it's not the destination, it's the journey, right? And this is really truly it.

50:45
for you is this journey that you've now realized that like, oh, I should look around. I should enjoy the scenery. I should embrace it, but know that it's continuing. I'm still on this train. It's still going, you know? And so if you could go back to the Amy during the pandemic when you just didn't wanna, just didn't wanna get up, didn't wanna do things, didn't wanna be you, you know, at that moment.

51:13
this version if you could go back and talk to her. Is there anything that you would would tell her?

51:21
Um, man, I don't know. I think I would tell her, just put one foot in front of the other and do your best every day because life has a lot in store for you. Don't give up on yourself yet.

51:41
I, it's so weird to think back to that time in my life because it's such a blur. And I am just so grateful that it was, that it passed for me. And it breaks my heart really to think about people who struggle with depression on a regular basis and not just kind of like a existential crisis kind of way where it's like once in a lifetime, you know, you have this big meltdown.

52:08
people who feel that way and feel so powerless. I think for me, I would have not gotten through that without some self-awareness, but also without somebody on the outside of my mind saying it's not as bad as it seems, like every day is a new day, and helping me put together a plan. Yeah, I don't even know what I could tell that person, to be honest.

52:37
because I'm just so much different today than I was then. It's interesting to look back, right? You're like, that was me, but also like, I can't believe that was me. Yeah. Because how do I feel this great right now, or how do I feel this fulfilled, knowing how empty that version of me felt just a few years ago? It wasn't that long ago, right? Yeah. Three years ago. It's just wild to think how quickly your life can change. How...

53:07
how just making small decisions for yourself, simple ones like going on a walk every day, like little tiny ways to make yourself feel stronger, how they can just really avalanche snowball and avalanche into this big wild change in your life that just like, I actually remember being nervous to tell people that I was going back to grad school. Like, you know, most people are excited to share that they got into grad school. For me, I was.

53:35
nervous to tell people in my life that I was going to grad school because I finished college and then felt like a failure. And so I was thinking they would judge me like why are you going back to school and then help you the first time around. Now keeping in mind that most of the people in my world didn't go to college and so there wasn't already a value placed on that. And yeah so it's kind of wild to think how this this one little tiny decision opened up a whole new world and

54:05
It made me see my potential and I think I needed that. I think that was the biggest life lesson there was. I had always overlooked my own potential and thought that any opportunity or anything that I had succeeded at was just, I got lucky or, you know, it's because nobody knows that I don't, that I'm not as smart as them or as good as them at this thing yet, you know, but they will eventually, they'll figure it out. It was shedding all of that is.

54:34
it was life changing for me. It was life changing. And even if, you know, there's another life shift for me down the road, and I find my place in another field or another doing something else, I think the lesson learned here will always help me realize that I am capable of charting my own path. And I'm capable of rolling with the punches and that it will work out, you know, it will work out if

55:03
If I just take a step back and really take inventory of all the great potential I have and the things in my life and the areas I have succeeded and Something else will come, you know Well, I appreciate you sharing your story and and I mean you you dipped in a couple of those those life shifts because we do Have so many of them, but I appreciate this story because I think a lot of people resonate with just kind of

55:31
finding that confidence and leaning on others and charting your own course and creating something that is meaningful and fulfilling. So thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast. Well, thank you for having me. This was great. I'm glad we were able to make it happen. Yeah, me too. I was worried that this topic would be a little too vague, but I think that that's why it was kind of like on my heart to share because those vague parts of our lives are, our lives are kind of where

56:01
we all struggle as humans. And I felt like somebody might resonate with it. Yeah, and I think that we also think that we're alone in that experience sometimes when we're in the deep throes of it. So I appreciate you and I appreciate all of you listening to the Life Shift podcast. And I'll just say it again, if you are enjoying it, a five-star rating and a review would be lovely. I don't know what it does, but it makes me feel good, so.

56:31
Thank you, Amy. And for those of you listening, we'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the LifeShift Podcast. Thanks again, Amy. Thank you.

56:50
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com