Coping with Grief and Guilt: Finding Strength, Healing, and Hope in Mental Health | Sunny Chang

00:00
I think that's important to me now, where it sounds almost cliche, but it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to sometimes just lay in bed and cry. You need to process those emotions and those feelings to try to understand where it comes from, because like I said, a ticking time bomb, if I don't gracefully accept I'm crying and sad at that time, then it's gonna come out in a different way. Oftentimes it comes out in anger.

00:30
which that was a really important conversation I had with my therapist during that program. I'd say it was the most important thing I remember is that anger is sending a message of a different emotion that you've bottled up and it's coming out in a different way. And for me, I let all these emotions bottle up and a lot of times it would turn into an explosion because.

00:56
rather than be vulnerable and talk about what was bothering me or what was weighing me down. I just let it bottle up until that emotion had to come out in some way. And most often times it came out as anger. On this week's episode, I speak with my friend, Sunny Chang. And Sunny is one of the co-hosts of Three Siblings podcast. You may have seen or listened to the trailer that I shared on the feed a couple months ago now. But he came to the show to talk about...

01:26
really the reason that they have the Three Siblings podcast. And so before I get into anything else, I do want to give you a warning, a trigger warning. This episode will discuss really tough tragedies, including suicide attempts and actual suicide and other deaths and mental illness. So I wanted to just put that in the space. I think it's a super important conversation.

01:54
but I know that it can be hard. So if any of those elements are hard for you, I would probably skip this episode and move on to next week. With that being said, Sonny came on the show and he talked about the tragedies that he and his sisters faced as he grew up. He was pretty much a teenager when all these major events happened. And he talks about how these events affected his mental health and how he processed that. And I think there's a lot of people that can understand.

02:24
how he went through these moments after, because tragedy is really tough. But he did something that I was just so very proud to know that he did this at such a young age. And so I'm really interested in hearing what you guys think about the steps that he took that I don't think people that are even older than he is would actually do. So I think it was super inspiring and I hope you find inspiration despite.

02:51
some of the really tough moments that he talks about in this journey. Before we jump into the conversation, of course, I want to thank all of my Patreon supporters, those that are supporting the show because they feel like I am bringing good stories and they want to support the production of the show. My friend Tracy and my friend Mickey and Emily, the three of you are sponsoring three episodes a month and I appreciate every bit of it. Because

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Putting this podcast together is such a fulfilling journey, but it is also a lot of work. And so these contributions to the Patreon will help me to cover some of the costs, but also continue building the show. We are currently at 27 Patreon members. And when we get to the 30th person, there will be another free t-shirt drawing. So if that's kind of in your space and you want a chance to win a free t-shirt every time five more people join the Patreon, or if you want early episodes,

03:49
No ads on your episodes or bonus episodes. All sorts of things are available on the Patreon and that is just at patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast. I would be ever so thankful for any support that you could offer to the show. So thank you so much to Tracy, Mickey and Emily for sponsoring two episodes every single month. I really, really appreciate it. With that, I would like to introduce you to my friend Sunny Chang and here is our conversation on the Life Shift podcast.

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I'm Maciel Huli, and this is the Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

04:36
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with, I'm going to call your friends, Sonny. Hey, Sonny. How's it going? Thank you for having me, Matt. If you're a listener of the LifeShift Podcast, in April of 2023, I shared the trailer for Sonny's podcast. And so if you listen to that and then you jumped over and you listen to his podcast, Three Siblings, then you know a lot of his story. However, hopefully we'll have a conversation today that

05:06
kind of expands on some of those areas. But in any case, I think your story is so important to share, not necessarily the event or the events that happened to you, but how you as an individual and with your siblings have processed these events. I think it's so important and we don't talk about it enough. So thank you for what you're doing in your podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I would reciprocate that as well. You're leaving a huge impact on others. And...

05:36
It's really powerful. I think, you know, tragedy, trauma, events, it can be different for everyone. Some seem like I couldn't even imagine. But for some people, it could sound really small. And that is like the worst moment of their life as well. And we should feel the freedom, I think, to talk about it and to say, look, it's just, I'm not good right now. And

06:05
be okay with that and not have the shame that I think sometimes comes along with that. And so I just, I love what you as an individual have done with this experience. And I'm so grateful that you are sharing it one on your podcast, but now you're kind of making the rounds on other podcasts and now a part of this. So you know, just kudos to you again. But I think it's just so important and not something that we often hear, especially from males. I don't know if you've seen that as well.

06:33
No, yeah, I think that's really true. Like you can see your audience members on, on Spotify and it's probably 75, 80% female and yeah, that just speaks largely to that stigma, especially in the male community and you know, I'm definitely trying to bring on some more male guests. And we just did an episode on mental health and masculinity and the desire to, you know, sort of keep up with other guys and have that image that you need to.

07:03
of what it is to be a male. And so, yeah, that's a huge, important thing that I'm trying to work on. Yeah, I think it's part of, I think society used to tell us these rules, and I think we're kind of rewriting the rules, or, I mean, maybe there aren't any rules, and maybe there shouldn't be any rules to be a human, right? I don't know that gender should really play too much of a role in that, and so I love that you're having that conversation as well. I recently...

07:32
had an episode with someone that is also kind of trying to redefine masculinity in a way that is current in some way of like, you're a fully formed human, and you're allowed to have all the aspects of being a human, and not just the performative ones that we've been trained to put out there. So it's a wonderful thing to have these conversations. So what I would love is.

08:01
if you could kind of paint the picture of what your life in your family and what everything was like before these moments in your life that really changed everything. Maybe you can kind of give us what that looked like and a little bit about who you are in general, who you are right now. Definitely, yeah, so my name's Sonny Chang. I'm 26, I live in Austin, Texas. Born and raised in Texas. I'm first generation, grew up in a suburb of Houston.

08:29
I currently work at Google doing business development and really enjoying it. Fun fact, I have a mini Australian shepherd named Blue, but I guess a little bit about the history is I'm first generation Chinese American. My parents came from rural areas of China, lived the American dream, created a successful business. My mom actually started it in her garage, which is unbelievable. They were just sort of the...

08:59
picture of what we wanted to be growing up. They, you know, works hard, were successful, were great people, treated their employees like family, and growing up, I guess it was sort of, mental health was never really talked about. I think it's important in a lot of immigrant communities coming to the U.S., you know, I've had conversations with someone who's Greek and someone who's Mexican, and I think there's this huge.

09:28
idea that if you're suffering with mental health, it's a weakness. And when you're an immigrant, it's all about trying to succeed and do more and be better. And then also these communities are really tight knit. So if someone hears about this person is depressed and go into therapists, that rumor or that idea is gonna spread around to the entire tight knit community. And then suddenly once again, it's like, oh, this person's down, which...

09:57
as an immigrant, you want to be seen as someone that's, you know, leaving an impact, doing something positive. I think there's a lot of pressure for the way you say that. I think that there is a lot of pressure to perform, right? To be here in a new space and to be seen as a success, right? Because everyone dreams about the American dream, whatever that means these days. But you know, I can see that. But

10:24
Do you think that it's also cultural? Is that cultural, not talking about mental health, not sharing those kind of things? I think it is cultural just because I feel like in China, then it wasn't really talked about or known about. It could be generational too, and not just cultural. Yeah, no, I can definitely see that being generational. My dad's parents, his grandparents, were in the army in China, so.

10:53
I definitely wasn't talked about then. But I mean, yeah, just thinking back growing up, my parents loved us fully. For me specifically, you know, had me focus on school, work hard, and I hated it at the time, but you know, go to after day school, go to Chinese school on Saturday. I hated going to Chinese school on Saturdays. Like I should be out playing with my friends, but I'm so thankful now that I can...

11:23
you know, conversationally speak Chinese with people or Mandarin. And I'm thankful now that they had me going and doing math classes after school. Cause it just taught me how to perform, I'd say, and do well and meet expectations. And I think those expectations, you know, became huge and were, and have left an impact on me on how I need to constantly be performing. It's sort of been instilled in me. And it's now, if I'm not performing.

11:53
I feel like there's something wrong with me. If I'm laying around watching Netflix, it's just subconsciously in my mind that I need to be active, I need to be working on something, I need to be performing. And I think that is a huge mental health hurdle for me that I'm trying to get over. Yeah. And I don't think it's uncommon. I think there are a lot of people that come from a family of producers, if you will, of people that are constantly creating. And then there's pressures from...

12:23
outside sources that are telling us we need to do one thing better or another thing or another. I mean, I felt very much like that. I don't know if anyone told me that, but I felt like growing up, I was conditioned to just keep going, just don't stop. There's always something more to do. So you're the youngest in your family. Your sisters are how much older than you? Tina is the middle child. She's 30 or 31 and Michelle is 33.

12:53
And what was that dynamic like between the three of you, like growing up? So because I was a little further in age from Tina than Michelle and Tina were, they were definitely a little bit closer. And when everything started to unfold, my mom's depression got bad. They were already out of the house because they were in college or moving on with their life. So I think that was a huge impact on my mental health when.

13:21
my mom got depressed and things started to happen because I didn't have that sibling care or guidance that could have probably helped. Yeah, you kind of felt like you were an only child at that point in time because you were at home. So maybe you can lead us into kind of what transpired in your life because it's not a singular event. There are a couple really pivotal parts and then kind of like final moments that really shifted you into a new direction. When I was 13,

13:51
My dad started going on longer, two-week quote-unquote business trips. And eventually it turned out that he was cheating on my mom. He had a mistress. And I remember when I was 14, he told me that he was moving out of the house. And that was the last time I told him I love you for six or seven years. And the next time I told him that was the last thing I told him. So I think that'll be a.

14:20
part as well later on. And when he moved out, it really caused me to resent him. I sort of blamed the divorce on my dad just because he was the one that did this thing. But really, it was the best for both of them. But it was really messy. A lot of arguments, a lot of lawsuits and things like that. And I'd say that started to cause my mom to become depressed.

14:51
Like I talked about with the rumors going around in the Chinese community, that definitely weighed on her heavily just because, okay, two prominent people in the Chinese community are getting divorced. My dad was the chairman on numerous Chinese community, you know, charitable foundations and things like that. So two well-established Chinese people in their community getting divorced. And similar to what I was saying earlier, I feel like my mom's friends,

15:21
who were immigrants as well, they didn't really know how to help her either. I was 14 and my sisters weren't home and they were still young. We didn't really know what to do or help either. A year later, I was on a trip. I came back and my sister told me that our mom had attempted suicide. She had gone to a parking lot on the second floor. She left a note.

15:49
And I think that's important. I think if you leave a note, it's sort of a cry for help. Whereas later on, she didn't leave her note. She left her phone, sort of, you know, she was ready to do it. But she left a note, left her phone, and on the second floor of a parking garage, a huge thing that caused her anxiety was our dogs. And so I guess in her mind that if our dogs were gone, some of the anxiety would be lifted. And she threw her two dogs off the parking garage.

16:18
and luckily one survived. And before she was able to jump, she was found and she was sent to a psych ward. So when I next saw her, she was in a psych ward. Being 14, I didn't really understand the gravity of that. I knew that something was wrong and that my mom needed help, but it was just sort of strange to me. I was in shock. I feel like being in shock.

16:46
weighed heavily on me and just not knowing what to do. I was sort of confused, I'd say is a good way to put it. Well, I also think that while it sounds like you weren't really conditioned to have certain feelings, right, like your parents probably didn't talk about all these things as much, maybe. Did your mom, was there like clues that your mom was getting depressed or feeling a certain way, or was there more she was trying to hide this and be

17:16
show the shame that maybe she was feeling, you know, because other people knew she was getting divorced or was divorced or whatever that may be. Did you notice things changing in her? I think that's a good point, but I'd say it's parts of her, yes, trying to hide it from me. And then the ignorance of being a kid, just not being able to catch those telltale signs of her depression and starting to grow. Well, and you also don't have the awareness that, like, you know, at 14, you don't think that

17:46
something's gonna get so bad that this is going. Like it can't happen to our family because X, Y, and Z, we kind of make those assumptions as kids. I think, you know, when my mom died, I didn't have a concept of what any of that meant, right? Like you knew what it meant. You could see it on paper, you knew what that meant, but also at the same time, you didn't know how to process that. But I guess it also kind of makes sense that if mental health wasn't really talked about.

18:15
You know, your mom was probably not seeking out help, right? To begin with, that kind of led to this desperation, I guess, in a sense of like, I don't know what else to do kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to put it. And after that, she was getting better. Was she willing to accept that help? Like when they brought her to the psych ward and whatnot? I'd say I think so. I think seeing her kids all there, I think that...

18:45
is what continued to give her the strength to keep pushing and accept that help. And after that, she did get better. She was a single mom for me. She drove me to school because I didn't have my driver's license yet, brought me to all my sporting events, and she got better. She had a boyfriend. I think what was also really great was that she had one of her cousins, just to speak on how great my parents were, they brought

19:15
my grandparents, their brothers and sisters, and then also cousins and gave them jobs at their business and just provided for them and gave them that new life in America. And so she had her cousin and her two daughters who were probably under eight years old, they moved in. And I think that was really good for her to have more company around her. And so everything was good until I think me moving to college was just what...

19:44
heard her so much being an empty nest after I left her college. And after that first year of college, it was June of 2016. I got a call from my dad. My mom had gone to the same parking garage and jumped from the second floor. She fractured every limb. She fractured her skull. And the only reason she was found was someone saw a trail of blood leading to her body.

20:11
And so she was life flighted. I was in Austin. Michelle was in Paris. So I had to drive three hours to Houston. I can't even imagine Michelle having to drive or fly eight hours and have that on her mind. And that was just a huge wake up call. I'll never get that image out of my head of seeing my mom just covered in cast, just so lifeless and lost it seemed like.

20:39
I was going to wait until the end, but I'd say that was one of the pivotal moments, events of my life. I was 18 or 19 now, and I still didn't fully grasp or understand what mental health was. But I think at that moment, I was like, I need to change. I need to be there more for my mom. And I think that's where a lot of the guilt and regret started to come. And it's you think about what could I have done differently to prevent that.

21:09
And that's one of the one of the mindsets I'm trying to reframe into thinking. Being 18 or 19, I loved her in the way I could. And I did what I was able to. I wasn't a mental health professional. And so I'm trying to reframe that and feel less guilt. And one of the most important conversations I've had with someone is with the manager at Google, I told him about the story and he

21:36
and opened up with me and he told me that he had attempted suicide by shooting himself in the head. And he survived and he said the one most important thing I wanted to tell my kids is that there was nothing that they could do. And that was just one of the most important things I've ever heard because the guilt and regret that I hold towards my mom's death is that. And that was just so uplifting to hear.

22:04
We're not uplifting. It was just sort of... Yeah, you didn't feel alone in how you felt. And it was acknowledged that you were being an 18, 19-year-old doing what 18, 19-year-olds do, and go to college and live your life and have that independence. And it's not your responsibility, in a sense, of fixing someone. But at the same time, you just said that you felt like your mom was getting better. There was... She was doing more...

22:35
quote unquote normal things, right? And so to absorb that pain, I think is natural or that grief or that blame is natural. But at the same time, I'm glad you've reflected on this that the fact that like, what were you supposed to do? Right? Were you supposed to just not go to college? Were you supposed to be there all the time? Were there indications that you should have been there all the time? Probably not. Yeah, I mean, that was just sort of.

23:03
Sitting in the hospital, I remember making a pact to myself. I'm gonna tell my mom I love you more. I'm gonna call her more. I'm gonna do all these things. So when she got out of the hospital, she couldn't walk. She had helpers come every day, nurses to give her medicine and just help take care of her. I'm forever grateful to my middle sister, Tina. She moved home to be there for my mom while I was in college. And so that was in...

23:33
June of 2016 and maybe a year later, I remember her being able to walk again. And that was, I have a picture of her for the first time walking out of the hospital. And that's just one of the happiest pictures I have. That just makes me smile. It makes my heart full when I see that picture. And so that was June of 2016 and December of 2016.

24:02
Growing up, my dad always had heart problems. He had a defibrillator installed probably early 40s. It was the day of my accounting exam. I was in Austin. It was 9 a.m. accounting exam in an hour. I'd probably been up until three, four a.m. studying. I was in a study room with my friends just getting ready before the exam, and I get a call from my stepmom, who I'd never spoken with before.

24:31
because I resented her and I didn't even have the number saved. Who is this? I'll just take the call. And she said my dad had had a heart attack. Typically he's had heart attacks before the defibrillators helped save his life and prevent anything bad from happening. But this time he was in a coma and brought to the hospital. I remember sitting in a stairwell at the business school and just crying and I had to go to the room and tell my friends.

24:59
I can't take the exam, I have to drive to Houston and be there for my dad. And gave my professor a hug, told him what happened, and I drove to Houston again. And those drives are just... What is that? How long is that drive? Three hours, so it's not that bad, but it's just a lot of time to think and reflect on life. Yeah, what were some of the things that you were thinking about on that drive? Because it had been a while since you had spoken to him, right? Okay, so I missed out a part where in November...

25:27
November of 2016, before he passed, he invited me to his bay house to go fishing and just hang out. And being in college now, I'd matured a little bit. In high school, I wouldn't really talk to him. I'd go to dinner with him every Sunday and wouldn't talk to him at all. Just give him the cold shoulder. And just, and growing up, being a little more mature, I started opening up to him more. And we went to a football game and basketball game at-

25:56
UT Austin where I went to school and we're talking a lot more. And so I went to his Bay House and we had a great time and got to catch up and the relationship was really growing. And so that when I left, I packed up my bags and drove away to head back to school. I told him I love you and that would be the last thing I ever told him, which I think is really important and leaves a big impact on my life knowing that.

26:25
I know that if my dad had made it, our relationship would have been able to continue to grow. But I'm glad to have been able to have breached that barrier and say, I love you. And that knowing that our relationship was on the way to be mend before he passed. Right. There were probably less unsaid things than if you hadn't had that time together. Yes. Yeah. All those things probably would have been.

26:53
kind of eating at you as well and absorbing more blame in some capacity. When my dad was in the hospital, that was the first time I hung out with my stepmom and I have a baby half sister. She was two or three at the time and she's so adorable. And just we put family first. So my dad had his heart attack, was in a coma, was in the hospital for two weeks. And

27:21
We put resentments aside and I hung out with my stepmom for the first time. I think it was my sister's first few times meeting her and we were just there to support my dad and be there for him. So yeah, we put all resentments aside, met our baby sister. And every night we alternated who would be there and stay the night for my dad, just in case anything happened. And on my night, I was only one there.

27:50
A nurse gave him the wrong medicine that boosted his, increased his heart rate, which is not good for someone who had a heart attack and was dealing with tissues. And his heart started failing. And like a movie, the doctors and nurses came rushing in, had the two chest pump defibrillators. I still don't know what it's called, but they start doing it like the movie scene where it's like three, two, one, go, three, two, one, go, and his chest explodes in the air.

28:17
And eventually they stop and his heartbeat stops. And so I was the only family member there and I watched my dad die in front of me. Your mom was, she had just got out of the hospital. Was this, how much time was in between this period? Because you had just kind of recovered, if you will, from that tragedy, made you, you got a picture of her walking out of the hospital, feeling this smile. What was the time period between these moments? It was six months, June 2016 to December 2016.

28:47
And it's, I wouldn't say it's funny, it's sort of funny in a dark way. In July or August, my mom's grandpa passed away, and so we had to go to his funeral. But I think with all these events, and I'll get onto the final event that happened, it just seems sort of brushed aside when we had to deal with my mom in the hospital and things like that, but just so much going on. But now you add that little extra piece in there is that

29:17
possibly of like, okay, we're in a good space now, and your grandparent dies, so that's not a great space. But then in November of that same year, you have this opportunity to kind of put some of the stuff aside with your dad and like, okay, now we're going upward. And then it puts you in a different head space to approach something like your father passing. Did you feel that switch?

29:45
harder this time because you felt like you were on this upward trajectory in a sense, you know, like you felt like there was hope happening in all these other places. Was there some part of that that played into that? Yeah, definitely so much. Every twitch, every movement my dad had in the hospital on his coma, it was just a sign of hope, a sign of, all right, my dad is going to make it through. I'm going to continue to grow my relationship with him and just be the best son.

30:15
and make up for that lost time with him. Right, and also thinking your mom too, like at the same time, you're like, okay, we're good. Yeah, I mean, I look back to my mom luckily surviving and it's, yeah, my dad is gonna make it and things are uphill, things are gonna be better moving forward. Right, cause I bet there, I mean, years of kind of like this hard, somber, dread, like...

30:44
when are we going to get through this mud? A lot of people would feel that way of like, okay, when is enough, enough. And then this happens and your father passes, which probably sent you in a different direction. But you said there was some positivity to it in the fact that you were able to have those conversations and kind of start to mend that relationship. Yes, yeah, I think so. So what changed after your father died?

31:14
We started to build a relationship with our stepmom and see our baby sister a lot more. Obviously it was probably tough for my mom being that was who my dad left her for, but she even put the resentments aside and they became friends. And I think that was good for my mom to have someone, a friend who would often go visit her and be there for her and have conversations with her. And...

31:43
Yeah, things got better, I guess you could say things got better. Um, I say a lot, the silver lining of it all is that it made me a lot closer to my sisters, you know, just being there and experiencing that with them, it just made us grow so much closer. And so after December, 2016, I went back to school. Things did seem, seem great. I was doing well in school and that summer I decided to study abroad in London. And so for me, it was.

32:13
Things are great, I'm having such a good time. And in August, my sisters were home as well. And one night, my mom told us she was feeling down, she was feeling suicidal. And us three being kids, I was 19 or 20 at the time. My sister's a few years older than me. We told her, we love you, mom. We're gonna get you help tomorrow. We're gonna take you to a doctor tomorrow. And really, that's all we knew how to.

32:42
do, I guess. We said, I love you. We hope you feel better. We're going to get you help tomorrow. And we went to bed and that was the last time we'd see her. She had gone smarter. And this time she went to a different parking garage and jumped from the ninth floor. And so she completed suicide and passed away.

33:07
That, I mean, how... I'm not sure how anyone can go through all of these moments and come out as a functioning human being because, you know, it's not... You had these moments of like trauma and then moments of hope followed by trauma, followed by hope.

33:37
followed by trauma, you know, and it's like a rollercoaster that you're on. What did you feel like? I mean, because you probably didn't expect her to do that again in some way, right? Because I think we kind of put that away. We're like, okay, everything's good now. What was it like after you found out or after that happened? Like how did you feel?

34:07
That's a dumb question, I'm sorry, but you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like... Did you feel empty? Like... No, I think that's... Empty is a good word to put it. I'd say I felt... At that point, I was just numb. It was... On my mind... I just wondered... How did so much change? How did my sisters and I become orphans that quickly? And how did I feel? I'd say I became numb.

34:36
that point. For me, it was, I guess, not having really understood mental health at the time. For me, it was trying to push those emotions down and not feel them just because being a male and not understanding what mental health was, to me, I guess, it seemed like a weakness as well. So it was just numbing myself in whatever way possible. I talked about performance. After my mom's second attempt.

35:06
My dad told me to focus on getting an internship and focus on school, just stay in school. I wanted to take a semester off and be there for my mom. And my dad told me that you should just focus on school. Like we'll be home, we'll be in Houston with mom and we'll help take care of her. I think that was hugely instilled into me as a way to distract myself is perform, just distract yourself and focus on other things. If you're busy, you can't.

35:35
think you can't be as sad, you can't process all of the emotion, dive into just being productive? Or did you find, or was that your addiction? Or did you find an addiction? Was there something? What did you do after? It became a ticking time bomb, but the ticking time bomb took until it took four years. My anxiety, I always had anxiety, but I didn't know it was anxiety. I would

36:03
have anxiety attacks in class and not really understand what they were. I would have this thought that everyone was looking at me and watching me, and I would start sweating because there's this made up pressure on me. And then I think everyone could see me sweating, which would just make me freak out even more. Hard to breathe, and I just have to run out of the class. And since a young age, I don't remember when it started, I'd had those anxiety attacks. And the next semester, it was August.

36:32
when my mom passed, it just got worse and worse and worse. And I remember my friend had told me that she was seeing a psychiatrist and taking medicine. And so it would be hard to function sometimes. I'd never really acknowledged it, but sometimes I would just lay in bed and not be able to move. I would just disregard things or disregard hanging out with people and just sit there and cry for an hour or two. And it seemed like for no reason, but obviously there was a reason

37:02
processing that grief and pain. And so I saw the psychiatrist, I say that was probably one of the most important decisions of my life and- It's a big one. Yeah. For someone, you know, in the way you grew up and the way you experienced those things, that was, that's a big decision, an important one. Yeah, and he eventually connected to me, to my therapist, which was great as well. Was that scary? I think so. I say vulnerability is-

37:32
a muscle that needs to be trained. And at that point growing up, I never really worked on vulnerability. So that was really tough for me. But I don't think that's uncommon. And I also think that when people that don't have that skill yet, when they go into a therapist, there's also this, and maybe you did this, I know I did this. You feel like you have this contrived way that you need to present.

37:59
whatever you're gonna talk about, like I need to say it in this way so that it sounds this way. Did you have those or were you very guarded? Was it hard for you to get into it? Yeah, I'd say guarded and then what you said as well. Yeah, you just have to... Yeah, you have a bullet point list of the things that you're gonna say. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So things were good. Things were good. I was close to my sisters and...

38:27
Things were good? Is that a quote unquote good? Like a... Things were good on good on the outside. I say a lot of my life is an analogy to social media. It's posting the happiest times of your life. For me, it was just painting this picture perfect image of myself to everyone. That everything's good. I fought in a boxing match. I say I retire undefeated. I was one and out. Then I ran a marathon and...

38:57
doing well in school. And after I graduated, I got a job at Google and I worked there for a year. And then for two years, I went to Goldman Sachs doing a finance job. And like I said, it was a ticking time bomb. It was continuing to perform, continuing to act like everything was okay, but not truly processing and acknowledging those feelings of grief and trauma. And finally in April of 2022,

39:27
getting over a toxic breakup, I was at a job I wasn't the happiest at. I was more happy at my previous job. And just that buildup, it led me to not be able to function again and not be able to work. And so I went on medical leave. I did an eight-week intensive outpatient therapy program. And I'd say that was a pivotal event in my life as well, where I'd go in every day, two hours a day of group therapy, and we had one hour session.

39:57
every week. And that's where it made me realize what I talk about a lot is that everyone's story in some way relates. There was people in my group therapy, they talked about how they had attempted suicide doing this, they were there for drug abuse, they were there for something, and all the stories somehow related. It seemed like everyone was going through it. And I try to say

40:26
Your depression can be the same as my depression. Your anxiety can be the same as my anxiety. Your darkest time can be the same as mine. You don't know how something can leave an impact on others. And I was just able to relate to everyone and sort of understand things better and see things from a different perspective. And after I did that program, that was the first time I sort of talked about mental health on social media.

40:56
I shared that I had done this program, I had gone on medical leave, and it was one of the best decisions of my life. And the feedback was incredible, 200 plus responses, people saying, thank you, we need more of this. But what really resonated with me was that two people asked for the link to the program, and they said that they had a loved one that they thought could benefit from doing the program. And that just made me think.

41:23
If I share my story more, talk about mental health more, how many people can I positively impact? And that would later on be the key idea that led me to create the podcast with my sisters. I mean, going back to that intensive, eight week intensive, that's not...

41:41
It's not your traditional mainstream solution, right? And that's a big decision. What led you to choose that over other forms of help? It's funny, the friend that referred me to a psychiatrist, she did the program as well. And so I had that at the back of my mind. And it was last year, so not too long ago. I was 25. I thought, this is a turning point in my life.

42:10
Do I want to make this difficult decision now and hopefully change my life for the better? Not forever, but leave a huge impact on my life that I think will be positive? Or do I just want to continue to live life the same and not fully acknowledge it? And I made that tough decision to hopefully make one of the best decisions of my life. And I'm glad that I ended up doing it. Oh, yeah.

42:37
I mean, it sounds like you found a community of people that understood you, that understood the things that maybe you couldn't put words to, right? That you couldn't describe because you didn't have the tools growing up in your family or in the generation where you were. Like I didn't either. I just didn't have, I didn't know how to process things. And until someone around me was like, oh yeah, I'm feeling this way. I'm like, oh yeah, me too. So it sounds like you built that community there. And I'm assuming.

43:06
through that eight weeks, you felt more comfortable to start processing, you know, like how you were feeling or how you felt about your mother's multiple attempts and then the final piece or how you felt about your strained relationship with your father. Did all of that come up there? Were you able to kind of process early life version of Sunny to that point or how did you feel walking out? Did you want more?

43:37
Yeah, I was the last week. It's sort of scary. It becomes so much a part of your life. It's like dang. I'm not going to have A lot of people to talk about talk to the stuff anymore. Yeah, and I still go to the individual therapist that I Saw during that eight-week program. He he specializes on grief and trauma and it did help me change my perspective and see things for my youth that were sort of

44:09
old, I can't think of the right way to put it, but sort of old perspectives that needed to be refrained. Like what I talked about, the guilt and regret I had, he brought a lot of those things up that I need to reframe my mindset. Those are mindsets that I have that are only going to hold me back and that are based on an older opinion or thought that you have. And it was important to try to see.

44:35
things from my youth that weighed down on me heavily or left a big impact on me and be able to see how someone else could see it from a different perspective, how maybe it could have impacted you this way or it did impact you this way in a different light. And I think that was really important. Do you remember if there was a moment in those eight weeks that was your aha moment, anything particular anyone said to you?

45:03
And the reason I ask this, I have one as having gone through therapy, like there's a specific sentence that was said to me that like opened everything. Did you have a similar experience? Like someone shared a story and you're like, everything started unraveling. And it's okay if you didn't just wondering. I can't say I have a particular moment, but, but I think it was just being able to resonate with everyone. Just like sitting in a room and realizing like, Oh, I'm actually not alone.

45:32
in how I feel. Yes, yeah. It was just, everyone was there for a different purpose, but it's sort of all tied in together. And it's just, like you said, it was a sense of community and it turned into feeling safe in that room. Yeah, and like a family, probably. Yes, yes. Because your deepest, darkest, probably things you told these people, your closest friends and family may not have heard some of that stuff until after. Yeah.

46:01
Yeah. And the reason I say that is I, you know, it's interesting because, you know, my mom was killed in an accident when I was a kid and I had the same kind of, I mean, my time bomb was like about 20 years, not quite so drastic, but in the sense that it took me a long time to find the right therapist to find when I was comfortable going. And when I found the right one, it was like number five. She said to me,

46:31
after a bunch of talks, she was like, you realize that everything that you've done since that moment, you've made with the mindset of that eight-year-old who lost his mother. And that was the sentence that was like, my whole life flashed before my eyes, like, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Every decision that I had made was fear-based, was like, if I don't, to your point, if I don't keep going, if I don't perform to the highest.

46:58
someone else is going to leave me. It was a sense of abandonment because in my mind, and maybe you feel some abandonment pieces like when your dad left or when your mom completed suicide to this idea, not logically, but they left you. It's kind of almost more pivotal in my life than when my mom died because it was like this opening of like, oh, now I get it. Now I can move forward with it. And so that's where that question came from. I'm always curious if.

47:27
You never know what someone says if it can like trigger a change in you and that was mine. So I'm glad that you found that family though and that that sense of belonging.

47:39
And maybe the sense of I'm not broken. Because I bet the version of Sonny laying in the bed crying, there was probably, did you have a sense of like shame that maybe you were broken? There was like, why can't I fix this? Yeah, yeah, definitely. What's wrong with me? I'm smarter than this. I can fix this. Why can't I do this? Yeah, what's wrong with me? Why can't I fix this? And...

48:08
I think that's important to me now where it sounds almost cliche, but it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to sometimes just lay in bed and cry and just, you need to process those, those emotions and those feelings. You know, if I- And honor them. Yeah. Try to understand where it comes from because like I said, a ticking time bomb. If I don't gracefully accept I'm crying and sad at that time, then-

48:37
it's gonna come out in a different way. Oftentimes it comes out in anger, which I think that was an important, for me, that was a really important conversation I had with my therapist during that program. I'd say it was the most important thing I remember is that anger is sending a message of a different emotion that you've bottled up, and it's coming out in a different way. And for me, I let all these emotions

49:07
bottle up and a lot of times it would turn into an explosion because rather than be vulnerable and talk about what was bothering me or what was weighing me down, I just let it bottle up until that emotion had to come out in some way and most often times it came out as anger. Subconsciously was probably some way to your body was like, I have to get rid of this. Like I have to get rid of some of this energy, this power, this anger, this whatever this is.

49:36
And sometimes those physical activities are the reason we do it. You know, like there's like a underlying reason why we did those things. And your story is fascinating. And, you know, I'm in my forties and so it's a different experience. And I'm thinking back, I don't know at 25 if I would have had the wherewithal to make these big decisions. And so I hope that you're proud of making this huge decision.

50:04
to put yourself first to, because society tells you, you're 25, you shouldn't be taking a leave from work, you shouldn't be stepping away from that, you got a great job, you're successful, you're doing the right things, you're following all the rules. Those decisions you made are huge, and I don't know that a lot of 25-year-olds would make that, so kudos to you for putting yourself first and finding something that could help you heal.

50:33
I think everyone should do that. I think everyone should have, there's a lot of strength in that. As much as pain and as much- Thank you. Hurt that you were in, it took a lot of strength to make that decision. Because thinking back to what you were saying about your family and not talking about mental health, I mean, this is a big thing. I'm gonna do an eight week program to help me. And putting that out there and then doing it and then sharing that you did it.

51:03
Those are all huge decisions and I mean, throw away the performative aspect of what you were saying life was like before. Like I'm good. I'm just going to perform on social media and show everyone that everything is great. I'm winning all these awards and I'm doing all these cool things. But then to go out there and go, look, I needed help. Like good for you. Thank you. Yeah. Like I said, it was just... I had a time in my life where it was... I wouldn't say...

51:32
make or break, I would say it's try to change my life for the better now, or who knows, maybe things won't ever change and I won't be able to get that help later on. So I think it was really important and I'm glad I made the decision. Yeah, I mean, it's huge. I think you should celebrate the strength that you had because I don't think a lot of people have that strength to do it. And just to admit, like, look, I can't do this on my own. I need more than my therapist. I need more than these medications if you were on them. I know you talked about it.

52:02
a psychiatrist, you know, I need more than this and this is what I'm going to do. So I celebrate that for you. I hope other people are inspired to do that. If they are feeling a little out of control or can't quite put everything in its place and its new place because you're not going to put it back in the old place. What's the biggest thing that you've learned since you've gone on that journey and started your podcast? Like what's the biggest thing about you and your mental health that you've learned?

52:31
I think that...

52:34
The biggest thing I've learned, I said it's okay to not be okay. Be vulnerable. It's a muscle. I was terrible at it to start when I started therapy. Would never talk about things with my friends. I think that was a big part of keeping up, maintaining that image that everything was okay. If I talk about it, it's a sign that things aren't okay. So be vulnerable. Train that muscle. It's like bench pressing. You know?

53:02
The only way you can continue to be more vulnerable and be more comfortable with it is by doing it. And it's, yeah, very uncomfortable, but you actually grow stronger relationships and people trust you more and better understand you. I like to say a lot, there is no scale, which relates to what I was talking about, how oftentimes people's mental health can relate to someone else's mental health, something.

53:31
impact me in one way that another event can impact someone else in the same way. And so when people, when my parents passed away, oftentimes people would say, I can't imagine what you're going through. And I just tried to say, sometimes you can imagine what I've going through, you know, sometimes your depression can impact you more than something can impact me. Yeah, I mean, I keep you're still, I mean, I would say you're still early in this journey, right? You're about a year post going to

54:02
that outpatient, right? About a year? Yes. About a year or so. And this is still an evolving journey, I'm sure. And just keep being an open book. I think that's so helpful. What you guys are putting out on Three Siblings is something that's probably not out there enough. I think if anyone's listening to this and you haven't listened to Three Siblings yet because you didn't listen to that episode or that feed drop.

54:28
Go and listen because I love what you guys did, sharing your story together, but then you also, in your first drop of episodes, you also each gave your own point of view episode, which I think was really interesting to hear because although you all experienced the same events, the same events happened in all your lives, listening to the three of you talk about them, it was quite different. The reactions, the feelings, the...

54:56
the ability to process some of that information. Some of you are a lot more comfortable talking about your mental health. Some of you are not as comfortable yet. And so what that told me is that there's a story for everyone and someone can relate to that. Because we're not all going to be you, right? We're not all going to go and do an eight week outpatient program. But we all might be like one of your sisters that casually goes here, or like someone else in your family that does this. And so I think.

55:25
what you guys are putting out there is so important for the world. And I thank you for that. And I look forward to upcoming episodes and the things that you guys are going to be doing in the future because it's really making an impact. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I think the point of view episodes also did a good job of showing our personalities a little more. But yeah, no, thank you so much. I think you are leaving such an impact as well. And it's so great listening to every episode. And like I said in the trailer drop.

55:55
You're so empathetic and you care so much about people. And I think that's what drew us together. And I'm so happy to be able to come and talk. I appreciate it. I'm on the same page as you. Stories are important. And just because you didn't have the exact same experiences or events in my life doesn't mean that you can't relate. And your conversation about joining that group of people at the outpatient.

56:25
experience that you had and feeling like you could connect with all of their stories, even though they probably weren't the same story as yours. I think that proves that you never know how someone's story is going to impact you and make you feel less alone in the experience. And so I appreciate you coming on this show. If you could go back to teenage version of Sunny with what you know now.

56:53
maybe after your mother's first attempt. Is there anything that you could say or do for him that might help him out in that journey that he had to go on to get to where you are now? I'd say cherish those happy moments and live in them. Everything is temporary. My sad days, my sad times are temporary, but those happy times are also temporary. So just cherish those good moments, cherish those close with you.

57:23
because you never know when the last time you talk to them will be. So cherish the good moments. Don't sit in them too long, because like I said, it's temporary. And just be resilient and enjoy what you have. Yeah, and then that teenage version of you probably wouldn't have listened. But it's important to to put it out there. I think you're right. The sad moments don't last forever, but neither do the happy moments. And that's life. That's part of being a human. And

57:53
And it goes to this feeling of, or my advice when I hear people like have just lost someone or something, everyone feels like they have to tell someone like what you should do. And I don't want to do that anymore. I always tell people, however you're feeling is okay. If you are so sad, that's fine. If you laugh one day, that's okay too. Because you're human, you're going through the emotions and you're going through your feelings.

58:22
just honor that and honor who you are and what you're experiencing it and share. When you're ready, share. Not right away, you might not be ready right away, but when you're ready, start, like you said, start exercising that vulnerability muscle because it will serve you well in the future. So we will share the links to connect with you, definitely to listen to your podcast, and is there anything else that you would want?

58:50
people to know about you or how to connect with you? Yeah, you can connect at threesiblingspodcast.com. On Instagram, we're threesiblingspodcast, and Twitter, we are siblingspodcast. Yeah, we'll share the links to those for sure. Easy, click, join, and follow their journey. You guys release, or your plan is to release new episodes at the beginning of some months? Every month, so one or two. I don't wanna hold you to it, so.

59:19
No, yeah, plan is the I wonder it just because three of us different schedules different things like that. So monthly release and Typically, it'll be two but if everyone's busy sometimes one Well, I appreciate what you're doing and what you're putting into the world from one podcaster to another Thank you for being a part of this and for those of you listening if you like Three siblings podcasts or the life shift podcast Please take the time to give us a little rating and review and we would appreciate that so very much. So

59:49
With that, I will leave you until next week when we have a brand new episode with another super important story for others to share.

01:00:09
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com