An Episode a Day Keeps the [fill in the blank] Away? – Bonus with Angela Hollowell

Speaker A00:00:00

Welcome to this special bonus episode with my incredibly insightful podcasting friend, the inspiring Angela Hollowell.

Speaker A00:00:08

Angela is a creator.

Speaker A00:00:09

She's a podcaster, an advocate for authenticity in the creator economy.

Speaker A00:00:14

In this little episode, which is not so little, it's a little bit long, but it was a great conversation, we talk about the transformative journey of both taking on a month long daily podcast challenge.

Speaker A00:00:25

So if you remember, in November, I challenged myself to do 30 days in November, every day, recording an episode and putting it out into the world.

Speaker A00:00:34

Angela did something very similar in February.

Speaker A00:00:36

So in this episode we discussed what it meant to embrace this imperfection and push through the creative boundaries that we had and really find joy in the process of kind of growing as podcasters.

Speaker A00:00:48

She reflects on how this challenge allowed her to bridge the gap between her newsletter and her podcasts and experiment with new formats and truly connect with her audience in meaningful ways.

Speaker A00:00:59

She is a full time creator.

Speaker A00:01:00

As you know, I do this as my extra on top of my 9 to 5 job, but of course, because who would I be if I didn't do this?

Speaker A00:01:08

We also talk about the deeper themes of vulnerability, the self awareness, and really staying true to our visions as creators, even with the industry telling us we have to do this, that or the other.

Speaker A00:01:21

So whether you're a podcaster, you're a creator, or someone just curious about the behind the scenes of podcasters, or me as a Life Shift podcast host and creator and editor and all the things then, I think this episode will give you some candid insights and probably some relatable moments.

Speaker A00:01:38

And without further ado, here is my little but long bonus episode conversation with my podcasting pal, Angela Hollowell.

Speaker A00:01:48

I'm Matt Gilhooley and this is the Life Shift Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

Speaker B00:01:55

Foreign hey everyone, welcome to a very special crossover episode.

Speaker B00:02:10

Matt Gohooly and I have both completed a daily podcast challenge.

Speaker B00:02:15

I did mine for the month of February, Matt did his last year, and we just wanted to chop it up about our experiences doing something crazy like this.

Speaker B00:02:24

What we hoped for, what we planned for, what we got, would we do it again?

Speaker B00:02:29

And what are some exciting things that we are looking forward to next in our shows.

Speaker B00:02:34

Matt, thank you so much for being the inspiration for this.

Speaker A00:02:37

Hey, I can't take all the credit because I saw it from those people that do that National Novel Writing Month where every month they write, every day in the month of November, they write a certain amount of words so that when they're finished, they have a Habit and they have part of their novel complete.

Speaker A00:02:54

So I was like, maybe I will challenge myself.

Speaker A00:02:56

And we both regretted it at some points.

Speaker A00:02:59

We both liked it at some points.

Speaker A00:03:01

And for me, at the end, I really feel like it was something I enjoyed doing.

Speaker A00:03:07

If I look back on the whole thing collectively.

Speaker B00:03:10

Yeah.

Speaker B00:03:10

I think looking back on it, I was like, this is great for me as a solo podcaster to try out different formats and different styles of using my voice as a solo creator.

Speaker B00:03:21

But also, if I had a team, this would be so much more feasible.

Speaker A00:03:24

And for you, I don't know, did you do a recording each day or did you at any point batch any of your episodes?

Speaker B00:03:32

I did batch some of them in preparation for me traveling because I was trying not to record audio in like a random hotel.

Speaker B00:03:40

Did I still end up recording audio in a random hotel?

Speaker B00:03:42

Yes, But I did try to avoid that as much as possible.

Speaker A00:03:46

Yeah.

Speaker A00:03:46

A challenge to myself.

Speaker A00:03:47

The reason I asked that I challenged myself to not batch anything.

Speaker A00:03:52

I wanted to work my 9 to 5 get and then get on a recording and figure it out in the moment and then within an hour release it.

Speaker A00:04:01

That was my goal every day for the month of November.

Speaker A00:04:04

So I picked a shorter month, but not as short as the month you chose.

Speaker B00:04:08

Okay, I did.

Speaker B00:04:10

I think I did batch recording for a lot of the deep dives because they took me so long to write.

Speaker B00:04:17

So I would write them all.

Speaker B00:04:18

It would take me like a couple hours to write them, and then I would record them in about an hour and then edit and upload and schedule.

Speaker B00:04:25

So I did that for, I guess, about eight episodes, and then a lot of the rest were just reactions.

Speaker B00:04:31

So, like reacting to things in media and stuff like that?

Speaker A00:04:35

No, I would say listening to all of the episodes that you did, I was really impressed and also thinking I could not do that.

Speaker A00:04:45

There was a lot of work that you put into preparing for most of your episodes and.

Speaker A00:04:50

And you had solid information.

Speaker A00:04:53

Not that my episodes were throw away, but they were a different focus.

Speaker A00:04:57

I had a different goal, I think, with my journey beyond just challenging myself, but for my show is so focused on other people that in my opinion, this was an opportunity for people to get to know me a little bit more.

Speaker A00:05:12

And some of the quirks that I have that I don't really get to show when I'm holding space for someone's deeply personal, tragic story in that capacity.

Speaker A00:05:22

So it's totally different approach.

Speaker A00:05:24

But I didn't have to do what you did where research is involved and writing out a script and Getting everything together.

Speaker A00:05:30

So kudos to you for that extra piece.

Speaker A00:05:33

I hope it was valuable as far as information goes for your audience as well.

Speaker B00:05:38

I think so.

Speaker B00:05:39

Like, the 2025 State of Black Businesses episode did really well, and I'm glad that I started with that.

Speaker B00:05:46

I think for me, there will always be part of me that feels like I'm putting myself out there too much.

Speaker B00:05:53

So I didn't aim to tell super personal stories.

Speaker A00:05:56

The opposite.

Speaker B00:05:59

I'm just like, I am putting myself out there in ways that I feel comfortable with.

Speaker B00:06:03

And even sometimes when I don't feel like I'm being super personal, like when people meet me in person, it feels like they already know me.

Speaker B00:06:10

And so I'm also hyper aware of that.

Speaker B00:06:11

So maybe that's clouding my judgment here where I'm already like, you guys know enough.

Speaker B00:06:17

Like, I'm good with the amount of information about me at this point.

Speaker A00:06:20

Yeah.

Speaker B00:06:20

And what's in my head.

Speaker B00:06:22

So I wanted to do just.

Speaker B00:06:24

I think for me too, it's like bridging the gap between the newsletter and the podcast because the podcast is so interview focused and the newsletter is largely me.

Speaker B00:06:33

Just, I want to say thought leadership.

Speaker B00:06:35

That sounds so stale.

Speaker B00:06:36

But like, my takes on what's happening in the creator economy mixed with my experience.

Speaker B00:06:41

And so I wanted that to be a bridge here as well.

Speaker B00:06:44

And for me, it was like, I treat it kind of like YouTube, just like trying out different creative formats and seeing like what people react to, what they most like most enjoyed, that sort of thing.

Speaker A00:06:53

Yeah.

Speaker A00:06:53

And I think a lot of people come to you for that industry knowledge and information.

Speaker A00:06:59

And I think like, even your Q A episodes were a little insight into your thoughts on things or your concerns about XYZ part of the community.

Speaker A00:07:12

So I think there's.

Speaker A00:07:13

You were dipping your toes in it, but your show isn't also, like, focus on that.

Speaker A00:07:16

And I felt like for me, maybe it would be something that people liked.

Speaker A00:07:21

And I think some people did.

Speaker A00:07:23

And some people probably didn't listen because they're like, damn, that's 30 episodes on top of.

Speaker A00:07:27

Because I was still releasing regular episodes each week on top of that.

Speaker A00:07:32

So it was a lot.

Speaker A00:07:33

So I don't know.

Speaker A00:07:34

I'm sure I lost some people too, because I tried so many episodes.

Speaker B00:07:37

But I think if you didn't know, you wouldn't have.

Speaker B00:07:40

Or if you didn't try, you wouldn't have known.

Speaker B00:07:41

So the people you lost were probably people who are lukewarm.

Speaker B00:07:43

Anyway, Dan Runcy of Travital, he made a very interesting statement about podcasting, which is people treat podcasts like a starting five.

Speaker B00:07:51

Like you have five, anywhere between five to 10 that you regularly rotate through, and in order to get a new podcast in there, one has to leave.

Speaker A00:07:59

Yeah.

Speaker B00:08:00

And so that's an interesting way to think about it and also probably how I view it.

Speaker B00:08:04

So my thing was, okay, if I'm in somebody's starting five to 10 podcasts, how can I increase my chances of moving up to that?

Speaker B00:08:12

Starting to.

Speaker B00:08:12

They start their day with or something?

Speaker A00:08:14

Yeah, no, I'm not concerned about it because I think at the end of the day, my show is a passion project.

Speaker A00:08:21

Right.

Speaker A00:08:22

This is, I should say, the name of my show.

Speaker A00:08:24

My show is the Life Shift podcast, and I talk to people about these pivotal moments in their lives that have changed everything.

Speaker A00:08:30

So, for me, my mom was killed in an accident when I was 8, and at that moment, my entire life changed from one day to the next.

Speaker A00:08:37

And so I have beautiful, deep conversations with people.

Speaker A00:08:41

And it's not something that I can.

Speaker A00:08:44

That or I choose to make a business out of because that's.

Speaker A00:08:49

It just doesn't feel like it aligns in that way.

Speaker A00:08:51

I'm not trying to teach anyone anything.

Speaker A00:08:53

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone.

Speaker A00:08:56

And so for me, I can take a lot more chances, I think, with a podcast.

Speaker A00:09:01

Like, I can put out extra things, like 30 days in a row and not have that giant concern.

Speaker A00:09:07

And to your point, if people drop off because it's too much, instead of just deleting the ones they don't want to listen to, then it is what it is.

Speaker A00:09:14

Like, I feel like I'm still doing the service to my audience of sharing these stories in hopes that people feel less alone by hearing someone else's similar story or similar emotions or whatever it may be.

Speaker B00:09:27

So a question on that, since I think that is a departure from where the podcast industry feels like it's headed right now.

Speaker B00:09:35

It feels people are still hoping to make podcast businesses a thing and still largely orienting a lot of podcast education and knowledge and conferences around teaching people how to make money from their shows, which is not the goal of everybody, and it's certainly not your goal.

Speaker B00:09:54

So when you were doing this daily podcast challenge, how did you measure success?

Speaker B00:10:00

Like, what were some of the things that you were looking for?

Speaker A00:10:03

I feel like I'm not going to have the answer that you might want me to have.

Speaker B00:10:06

I think I have no expectations.

Speaker A00:10:09

My, my.

Speaker A00:10:11

Truly, this sounds so terrible saying out loud, but it was really a selfish thing for me.

Speaker A00:10:16

It was more, can I do this?

Speaker A00:10:19

Can I show more of myself in this space?

Speaker A00:10:23

To your point of think my people know too much about me?

Speaker A00:10:25

Can I be as vulnerable as possible with whatever I was talking about that particular day and not worry about it coming out perfectly or worrying about how someone that doesn't resonate with that particular topic feels about it?

Speaker A00:10:44

So for me, it was very much a goal of, can I do this?

Speaker A00:10:48

Can I get comfortable enough?

Speaker A00:10:50

All my guests are doing it.

Speaker A00:10:51

Can I?

Speaker A00:10:52

And can I do it with the pressure of doing it every day after work or on a weekend or whatever it may be to get it out there?

Speaker A00:11:00

So I don't necessarily think I looked at the downloads or engagement on social media as much as I was like, check.

Speaker A00:11:08

I did that.

Speaker A00:11:09

And I made it through 30 days of it.

Speaker B00:11:11

No, I like that I didn't have a number expectation.

Speaker B00:11:14

I wasn't sure anybody was going to want to just listen to me.

Speaker B00:11:17

But I really was hoping for at least five people to respond to something that I had put out.

Speaker B00:11:24

I feel like that's a good measurement, just seeing who's listening.

Speaker B00:11:27

What do they care about?

Speaker B00:11:28

What do they think?

Speaker B00:11:29

How can I start a conversation with this?

Speaker B00:11:31

Which is always the goal.

Speaker B00:11:32

Right.

Speaker B00:11:33

And then I really was just hoping for you, just, can I do this?

Speaker B00:11:38

Can I push past this perfectionism mindset to just be comfortable with things not being perfect?

Speaker B00:11:44

The answer is yes.

Speaker B00:11:45

Reluctantly, but yes.

Speaker B00:11:48

But yeah, it was hard.

Speaker B00:11:49

And I think too, for me, because I wrote so much of what I did and research so much before I put anything out.

Speaker B00:11:56

It was almost like a writing challenge in itself, too.

Speaker B00:11:58

So it was like writing a newsletter article every day.

Speaker B00:12:02

And that was in itself its own challenge.

Speaker B00:12:04

Like, how can I package an idea that I think is cool in a way that resonates with other people?

Speaker A00:12:10

Yeah.

Speaker A00:12:11

And I think the way you did it also definitely builds your personal brand in a way of.

Speaker A00:12:17

Now people know even more, especially the podcast listeners know even more about, like, the way you tick and the way that you think about things.

Speaker A00:12:25

Like, I think that's so valuable because for those of us that have lots of interview podcasters, we are spotlighting the people that we bring on.

Speaker A00:12:33

And then people are like, who are you?

Speaker A00:12:34

Like, I only get pieces of your story.

Speaker A00:12:36

I only get pieces of your opinions.

Speaker A00:12:38

So I think there's really.

Speaker A00:12:39

That's a cool piece for you to have to push people back to.

Speaker A00:12:43

Here's a piece that I did.

Speaker A00:12:44

I know you have the newsletter, but at the same time, this is bridging the gap.

Speaker A00:12:48

Like, you mentioned so in today's newsletter.

Speaker B00:12:50

I actually tried something different for the first time, which is I used one of the episodes from the podcast challenge as audio and I said, hey, listen to me.

Speaker B00:13:02

Read this for you, or you can read it yourself.

Speaker B00:13:04

And I just edited it for clarity and put in all the hyperlinks and photos and stuff.

Speaker B00:13:08

Great response.

Speaker B00:13:09

Was not gonna lie.

Speaker B00:13:10

I was not sure how people were gonna respond to that, but pretty solid.

Speaker A00:13:14

Response so far, so that's good.

Speaker A00:13:16

Did you see, you said you wanted five people to, like, engage in some capacity.

Speaker A00:13:20

Did you see that frequently with your daily episodes?

Speaker B00:13:24

Not every day, I would say probably on average it was two to three people responding, but over multiple episodes, I'm pretty happy with that.

Speaker B00:13:33

And even had people sharing without me prompting them to share, which is also like a really good sign.

Speaker B00:13:37

So I appreciated that.

Speaker A00:13:39

Where were you finding that engagement?

Speaker A00:13:41

Was it through your newsletter or mostly LinkedIn?

Speaker B00:13:44

Mostly LinkedIn, because I think people have caught onto the fact that's the only social platform.

Speaker A00:13:48

And how did you.

Speaker A00:13:50

I don't remember how you advertise each episode each daily.

Speaker B00:13:54

I.

Speaker B00:13:54

You know what, that was one of the things where I was like, we're just gonna see what happens.

Speaker B00:13:58

I did not advertise every episode.

Speaker B00:13:59

That' where I think for me, I was like, if a team was doing this, one person's job was to market, one person's job was to edit.

Speaker B00:14:05

Another person was like, write and produce and then you have your host.

Speaker B00:14:08

That would be great.

Speaker B00:14:10

But for me, I was like, you know what, as long as the episode is out there, we're gonna go with it.

Speaker B00:14:14

And sometimes I would make a post of saying, these are my last three episodes that I did.

Speaker B00:14:18

So like a catch all kind of post.

Speaker A00:14:20

Yeah.

Speaker B00:14:21

But that's as close as I got to really promoting every episode because you.

Speaker A00:14:24

Were running your own business at the same time.

Speaker A00:14:26

So that's a full time gig too.

Speaker B00:14:28

Yeah.

Speaker B00:14:29

In terms of podcasting as a whole, I want to talk about like your podcast ecosystem because you have merch, which you're rocking right now.

Speaker A00:14:39

I made it myself.

Speaker B00:14:40

I love it.

Speaker B00:14:41

I love it.

Speaker B00:14:42

You have a Patreon where people can support you there.

Speaker B00:14:46

That face is hilarious.

Speaker A00:14:47

You're welcome.

Speaker B00:14:49

And then you also just started a newsletter, which I am drastically happy about.

Speaker B00:14:55

So I would love to hear your thoughts on, like, how the podcast ecosystem is going.

Speaker B00:15:00

Like, how is that working for you?

Speaker A00:15:02

I will say it's very hard.

Speaker A00:15:04

I think it's.

Speaker A00:15:05

As someone that has a full time job in a totally different industry doing something Totally different.

Speaker A00:15:11

It's a lot of work, and I feel honest.

Speaker A00:15:14

If we're being honest here, I feel like there's a huge responsibility to get it right in some capacity in relation to my guest stories.

Speaker A00:15:26

So I have.

Speaker A00:15:27

I'm holding this really deep, traumatic story or this super inspirational story.

Speaker A00:15:34

What am I supposed to do with it and how do I do it?

Speaker A00:15:37

And then you have all the noise from the industry, like you were pointing out, like, you're supposed to make money and you're supposed to get sponsors, and you're supposed to.

Speaker A00:15:44

You're supposed to do this on social media, and you're supposed to.

Speaker A00:15:48

And I'm like, I'm one person.

Speaker A00:15:50

I'm editing it myself.

Speaker A00:15:52

I'm doing everything myself.

Speaker A00:15:54

What?

Speaker A00:15:54

How can I do this?

Speaker A00:15:55

So the honest answer is it's really hard, and I don't know how the ecosystem is going.

Speaker A00:16:01

Patreon.

Speaker A00:16:02

I made the face because I started a Patreon maybe a year into the journey.

Speaker A00:16:07

I'm like, a hundred.

Speaker A00:16:08

And I think I have 260 total episodes of my podcast, but that includes, like, bonus and stuff.

Speaker A00:16:13

So I think I have 172 interview episodes.

Speaker A00:16:17

And I started it probably, I don't know, 50 episodes into my journey, the Patreon.

Speaker A00:16:23

And I went stupid.

Speaker A00:16:25

Like, I started really dumb, where I had five tiers of, like, this, all these different things.

Speaker A00:16:31

And I'm like, who am I?

Speaker A00:16:32

Like, how am I gonna manage this if it actually happens?

Speaker A00:16:36

And so I Got up to 30 something Patreon supporters, which was covering, like, Riverside.

Speaker A00:16:41

It was covering my hosting.

Speaker A00:16:42

It was covering, like, the expenses, not my time, but the expenses.

Speaker A00:16:46

And that was beautiful.

Speaker A00:16:47

And then about maybe six months ago, I decided, like, I can't.

Speaker A00:16:52

Like, it's running me dry, and I'm feeling really guilty taking people's $3, $5, $10, whatever they're giving to me.

Speaker A00:17:00

And I don't feel like I'm delivering the extra value that I feel like I should.

Speaker A00:17:08

So I determined that it was best if I was just honest with everyone that I couldn't do that.

Speaker A00:17:12

And I scaled back to just, like, the lower tier.

Speaker A00:17:15

You're going to get your episode early.

Speaker A00:17:17

You're supporting the Life Shift podcast kind of vibe on the Patreon.

Speaker A00:17:21

I sent individual text messages to everyone saying, hey, this is what I'm doing.

Speaker A00:17:25

I'm so sorry, but this is all I can do at this time.

Speaker A00:17:29

And people are super understanding, obviously super kind.

Speaker A00:17:32

But I went into it thinking, like, I have to do this because everyone's, oh, you have to Have a subscription model and you have to do merch and you have to do this, that, and the other.

Speaker A00:17:41

So as a.

Speaker A00:17:43

As someone maybe listening that wants to start a podcast, I would dip your toe in each thing when it makes sense and don't feel like all the noise out there is telling you have to do it.

Speaker A00:17:56

It's just a suggestion.

Speaker A00:17:57

You can do it and you can choose to do it.

Speaker A00:17:59

Like the newsletter thing, I don't know if it's going to actually go through because it's just another thing that I will have to do after work or find the time to do right.

Speaker A00:18:09

And so I'm going to cheat a little and use some of the tools that are out there that are available to podcaster.

Speaker A00:18:14

It's an extra fee, but maybe that's another way that I can connect with the audience, share the stories which are most important for me.

Speaker A00:18:21

I don't know if I answered your question, but I will say it's really frustrating.

Speaker B00:18:24

No, yo, that's so honest and so appreciated.

Speaker B00:18:28

Like, full transparency.

Speaker B00:18:30

I tried merch early on and I just didn't have the audience that wanted to buy merch early on.

Speaker B00:18:35

And I was using like print on demand, so it wasn't hard to cut off.

Speaker B00:18:37

And thankfully, I didn't have any stock for real at the house, so that was fine.

Speaker B00:18:41

But even now, if I were to redo merch, it's okay.

Speaker B00:18:44

Who's going to be fulfilling?

Speaker B00:18:45

This is.

Speaker B00:18:46

That's an extra day that I have to, like, figure out who's getting what and go to the post office and all these other things that I don't really want to make time to do for being honest.

Speaker B00:18:56

And then also marketing merch, that's another thing to market.

Speaker B00:18:58

It doesn't just sell itself, unfortunately.

Speaker B00:19:00

It's just not something I'm excited to dip my toe back into yet.

Speaker B00:19:03

Right now I've been focused on.

Speaker B00:19:05

I have some stickers and stuff that I'll give out if you meet me in person.

Speaker B00:19:08

So when I go to events, I have something to give people.

Speaker B00:19:10

And I also printed out.

Speaker B00:19:13

I don't have it next to me, but I printed out like a poster pamphlet situation.

Speaker B00:19:18

I got a designer to help me on.

Speaker B00:19:21

So that'll be a special gift for people coming to see me at Podcast Movement Evolutions.

Speaker B00:19:25

But so I've been trying to focus on stuff like that.

Speaker B00:19:27

If you see me in person, I'll have something for you.

Speaker B00:19:29

But just having a store online for the sake of having a store online doesn't sound like something that is worth.

Speaker A00:19:36

It to me again, it's something that you have to choose.

Speaker A00:19:38

I have a store online only because I like to make the merch so that I can wear it on all of my episodes.

Speaker A00:19:44

So, like, every time I record an episode, I'm wearing something that I created for the show.

Speaker A00:19:49

And it's just fun for me randomly.

Speaker A00:19:53

People that follow me will buy stuff, but it's not something that's paying any bill that I have.

Speaker A00:19:58

But it's.

Speaker A00:19:59

I enjoy that because I like to do digital art.

Speaker A00:20:02

I like to create on just so if something sparks interest, then I'll create it for myself.

Speaker A00:20:08

And if other people like it, cool.

Speaker A00:20:10

And to your point, they're print on demand, so it's not like I'm outlaying a huge amount of money or anything like that.

Speaker A00:20:16

Yeah.

Speaker A00:20:17

I think you have to treat.

Speaker A00:20:19

You have to choose the things that make the most sense in your world for what you can do.

Speaker A00:20:26

And if it's not, if it doesn't fit in the bucket, then who cares?

Speaker B00:20:30

Yeah.

Speaker B00:20:30

Even for the paid version of my newsletter, I didn't start on Patreon.

Speaker B00:20:35

I started on just having a paid option on Substack.

Speaker A00:20:39

Yeah.

Speaker B00:20:39

And I don't have many conversions on that.

Speaker B00:20:42

And it took me, I would say, almost eight months.

Speaker B00:20:46

I started it in December of 2023.

Speaker B00:20:49

It took me till, I think, September of 2024 to actually figure out what I wanted to put behind a paywall.

Speaker B00:20:55

That takes time.

Speaker A00:20:56

And you're like, is it worth the money that I'm going to charge?

Speaker B00:20:58

Yeah, always.

Speaker B00:21:00

Always.

Speaker B00:21:00

And so that's like, something that I think about now.

Speaker B00:21:02

And it's like I've gotten into a groove of writing it every week, and I'm excited about it now, but now it's okay.

Speaker B00:21:07

This is something else for me to market.

Speaker B00:21:09

And I put a couple of calls to Actions in my, like, podcast challenge in February, but I haven't done a whole lot other than that, so that's like a challenge I'm figuring out.

Speaker B00:21:19

And I'm also just, like, on this wave of.

Speaker B00:21:21

Until I figure out how to monetize the things that are already out there.

Speaker B00:21:23

Like, I'm not just going to keep adding things for me to think about, like that.

Speaker B00:21:27

Just spinning my wheels, honestly.

Speaker A00:21:29

Yeah.

Speaker A00:21:29

I think that's so counterintuitive to what we've been taught, though.

Speaker A00:21:34

I feel like we've just got to get that rich, get rich quick schemes, like, those things.

Speaker A00:21:39

Like, just try this now.

Speaker A00:21:40

But I think the success comes from putting in the reps.

Speaker A00:21:44

Right.

Speaker A00:21:44

Like, I feel like, the more you practice that.

Speaker A00:21:48

That writing behind the paywall, the better that's going to be, the easier it's going to get to market that.

Speaker A00:21:54

Right.

Speaker A00:21:54

And you just.

Speaker A00:21:55

Didn't you just like surpass a thousand subscribers or something like that on your.

Speaker A00:22:00

And that was like a.

Speaker A00:22:00

You had a nice little ramp going on there.

Speaker B00:22:02

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B00:22:03

It's been going up.

Speaker A00:22:05

The pool gets bigger.

Speaker A00:22:06

And so now there's more opportunity for you to preview what they can get on the.

Speaker A00:22:11

Like, I give some freebies away, those kind of things to get people interested and see where you go from there.

Speaker A00:22:16

But I respect that you can't throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

Speaker B00:22:21

Yeah.

Speaker B00:22:21

And it also, to me just feels like when people pivot too quickly from something, it's like you don't believe in it enough to stick with it and like, really try to communicate the value of investing or paying for something like that.

Speaker A00:22:34

I blame it on the noise.

Speaker A00:22:35

I do.

Speaker A00:22:36

I blame it on.

Speaker A00:22:37

There are some great people out there that will post really informative things, but then there's a lot of people that are like, here's how you can do this in 10 easy steps.

Speaker A00:22:47

And you're just like, probably not like, I feel like there's so much.

Speaker A00:22:52

But if you're new to it, you.

Speaker A00:22:54

Oh, is that all it takes?

Speaker A00:22:56

And then you realize when you go through the process that if you make it past the seven episodes of a podcast that most people don't, you realize there's a lot of work and there's a lot of things that come with it and you can't do it all.

Speaker A00:23:08

It's not possible to do it all by yourself, at least to.

Speaker B00:23:13

As someone who does want to make money for my podcast, I just recently joined a podcast network, a second show, Melanin mvp.

Speaker A00:23:22

And you started that, right?

Speaker B00:23:24

I did.

Speaker B00:23:24

I just started that in January.

Speaker B00:23:25

And it is a night and day difference from when I started Honey and Hustle.

Speaker B00:23:30

Like Melanin MVP started as a newsletter first, then it became a podcast and had a podcast network by the time I released the first episode.

Speaker B00:23:40

So not only do I have the owned audience that I did not have when I first started my first podcast, I have this support system of someone who is going to help me think about monetizing the show.

Speaker B00:23:51

And I already have the five year of experience of doing another podcast, knowing what works and how to do it well without spending a whole lot of money and how to market a show.

Speaker B00:24:02

And so it's just, it's completely.

Speaker B00:24:03

I've been like published and stuff.

Speaker B00:24:05

Now it's like, where was this when I first started?

Speaker B00:24:08

Nobody tells you all these intangible things that you could be doing right when you first start because so many people are just worried about, what do I say, how do I edit it, how do I get it out on time?

Speaker A00:24:16

But don't you think you needed those five years of.

Speaker A00:24:18

Maybe not five years, but you needed the practice and doing things wrong on your own to realize the things you needed to create, Create that successful second one and know the value of a network and know the value of all these things that you do.

Speaker A00:24:30

I feel part of the journey is not just jumping into this massive success, but rather trudging through the mud to figure out, like, how can I even do this?

Speaker B00:24:40

Yeah.

Speaker B00:24:40

No, seriously, though.

Speaker B00:24:41

And I feel like I'm surprised by it every time, but I don't know why I am.

Speaker B00:24:45

Like, every time I start a new storytelling venture, I'm like, wow, this is wildly more successful than the first.

Speaker B00:24:50

And it's.

Speaker B00:24:50

Yeah, because you have all the experiences from the first time to put into the second one.

Speaker A00:24:53

But it feels new and it feels exciting.

Speaker A00:24:55

But.

Speaker A00:24:56

And congratulations on the new launch.

Speaker A00:24:58

I couldn't imagine doing another one.

Speaker A00:25:02

You have multiple newsletters, multiple podcasts, and I think what you do with your business, I think there's so much opportunity to make money through what you do, and it's just finding the way that feels the best for you to make it happen.

Speaker B00:25:19

You would think that after five years, I wouldn't be asking myself, how do I want to make money?

Speaker B00:25:23

But I am, like, so often, do I want to make merch?

Speaker B00:25:27

Sure.

Speaker B00:25:28

Do I need to make merch to be happy?

Speaker B00:25:31

Not really, but I think that's the difference.

Speaker A00:25:33

You're being driven from your heart.

Speaker A00:25:36

More so than, like, how do I make the most money in the shortest amount of time?

Speaker A00:25:40

With the best scheme that I can put together.

Speaker A00:25:43

Like, you want the longevity, you want the something that's fulfilling.

Speaker A00:25:46

Same reason as doing your 28 episodes in a row of not divulging too much.

Speaker A00:25:51

You were very intentional about what you're doing.

Speaker A00:25:55

So there's a lot to be said for that.

Speaker A00:25:57

There's a lot of flash in the pan things out there that you could do, but that's not going to bring you any joy.

Speaker A00:26:04

Maybe the money, maybe the paycheck.

Speaker B00:26:07

But can money buy happiness?

Speaker B00:26:09

Maybe.

Speaker A00:26:10

Depends how much we're talking here.

Speaker A00:26:12

Yeah, no, I think.

Speaker A00:26:13

I don't know.

Speaker A00:26:14

I love seeing what you're doing, and it's really inspiring and also frustrating to me, if we're being honest, it's frustrating to me because I still have that voice on my shoulder saying, you should be getting sponsors, you should be putting out a newsletter every week, you should be doing all these things and then you see someone like yourself doing all that times two.

Speaker A00:26:35

And it's frustrating because I'm like, I can't just.

Speaker A00:26:38

I don't know how I can.

Speaker A00:26:40

So there's.

Speaker A00:26:41

It's not anything against you, it's just like it should be.

Speaker B00:26:45

The short answer is that I am a full time creator and I didn't realize how much time I didn't have when I had a 9 to 5 until I went full time.

Speaker B00:26:55

And I was like, hold on, I have way more time to dedicate to this.

Speaker B00:26:59

And I do think that's something that's left out of these conversations that people are having on social media of here's how to make 10k in one month and here's how to make whatever.

Speaker B00:27:08

These people have infinite amounts of time and quite frankly, they had a safety net that allowed them the time to be full time for six months to a year to figure it out when it wasn't making money at all.

Speaker B00:27:19

And a lot of people don't have that.

Speaker B00:27:22

When I went full time, I was leaving a job, so I still had about a month's salary they had to pay me and I started a new contract.

Speaker B00:27:30

So I never really lapsed in like getting paid each month.

Speaker B00:27:34

But going from like a full time job in the middle of the pandemic it was in May 2020, to going into a contract job that was largely hybrid because we couldn't be in person, I had vastly more time to dedicate to like a podcast and all these things and YouTube and figuring it that a lot of people don't have when you have to put food on the table, like, I can't imagine doing this with like kids and a partner.

Speaker B00:27:57

Like, this would be way harder.

Speaker B00:27:59

And there's just different things to consider.

Speaker B00:28:01

And of course, like social media can't catch all of that nuance and I get that and I won't have respect for that.

Speaker B00:28:06

But also, like this statement remains, a lot of the people that you see that are talking about, here's all you need to do and it's here's all you needed to do.

Speaker B00:28:15

That's what works for you, my friend.

Speaker B00:28:17

That's not this bucket listing that's going to translate to everyone.

Speaker A00:28:20

Yeah.

Speaker A00:28:21

I think the best part of my journey was as much as I say that frustrates me and the things I can't do.

Speaker A00:28:27

The best part of my journey was when I realized that I don't have to do.

Speaker A00:28:33

I don't have to be crime junkies and get a bazillion downloads every episode for my goals with the show to be fulfilled.

Speaker A00:28:42

I don't have to hit, like, I don't have to do all these things for this show to be worth my time, whatever time that is for me to do.

Speaker A00:28:49

And so I think you get that.

Speaker A00:28:52

I don't know that a lot of people that don't podcast for, like, a passion kind of project would get that, because I have, like, people I know that don't really understand the nuance of podcasting.

Speaker A00:29:03

And they will be like, oh, how many of these do you have?

Speaker A00:29:06

And how many of that's you have?

Speaker A00:29:07

I'm like, it might sound like a lot.

Speaker A00:29:10

It might sound like not a lot, but for me, it still fulfills, like, that initial goal of helping share these stories.

Speaker B00:29:17

That's how I feel about podcast awards, too.

Speaker B00:29:20

Like, they're great and I know people that have them.

Speaker A00:29:23

Yeah.

Speaker B00:29:24

But also they're in the same position as me, trying to figure out how to get paid for their next show or their next endeavor or find their next sponsor.

Speaker B00:29:29

Like, it doesn't get you out of those harder conversations around making money as a podcaster.

Speaker A00:29:35

Plus, you gotta pay for them.

Speaker B00:29:36

Yeah.

Speaker A00:29:37

Yeah.

Speaker B00:29:37

You have to pay to submit, which I also didn't know until I started looking into it.

Speaker B00:29:41

And like, all these unwritten things, it's great to have.

Speaker B00:29:45

I'm not.

Speaker B00:29:46

And validating the people that have podcast awards, but also, is that a measure of success?

Speaker A00:29:50

For me, it's hard.

Speaker A00:29:53

It's also hard, too, to compete with someone that has unlimited resources, like a wonder.

Speaker A00:29:59

Like these bigger publications or publishing houses that will produce these shows.

Speaker A00:30:05

They have the expansive network.

Speaker A00:30:07

Right.

Speaker A00:30:07

That they can share.

Speaker A00:30:08

I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of apparently a lot of the same network shows because when a new show comes out, I have 50 of the same.

Speaker A00:30:16

You should check out this episode.

Speaker A00:30:18

Episodes in my feed.

Speaker A00:30:19

And so imagine if I had that on a bigger network with, like, millions of followers on each show.

Speaker A00:30:27

You have that opportunity, and the awards are easier to get because you have all of that.

Speaker A00:30:34

So it's.

Speaker A00:30:35

I know there.

Speaker A00:30:35

But there is clout that comes with having an award for somebody.

Speaker B00:30:40

I don't know if it really translates to advertisers.

Speaker B00:30:42

I think it may translate more to listenership.

Speaker B00:30:44

From what I've heard, when a listener's.

Speaker B00:30:46

Oh, this is Webby award winning show.

Speaker B00:30:49

Yeah, I'm gonna check it out.

Speaker B00:30:50

It gives it that little credibility.

Speaker B00:30:51

But for a brand partner, I do think largely they still look at numbers.

Speaker B00:30:56

And again, is having huge numbers a measure of success for me in this show?

Speaker A00:31:01

It depends too what you're like.

Speaker A00:31:03

Some people have hyper local podcasts in which, you know, 30 listeners in this hyper local area might be like a win because they could get.

Speaker A00:31:13

Might lead to a job or a lead or something like that that gets a $300,000 job that comes along with it.

Speaker A00:31:20

And so that's a successful podcast because it did what it meant to do.

Speaker A00:31:25

And then you could have a show that has a bazillion listeners and doesn't do like nobody does anything with besides listen to.

Speaker A00:31:30

So how do we measure that?

Speaker A00:31:32

But I guess we're conditioned to measure by downloads.

Speaker A00:31:35

I measure by the award that I won from Riverside, which this.

Speaker B00:31:41

Yeah.

Speaker B00:31:42

Valuable unit of measurement, I think.

Speaker A00:31:44

Exactly.

Speaker A00:31:44

Yeah.

Speaker A00:31:45

I was named like my show was named by this independent writer from Earworthy.

Speaker A00:31:50

There's a group of people, earworthy publications and they do.

Speaker A00:31:53

They focus on indie podcasters and they only want to talk about really like indie shows.

Speaker A00:31:59

They will blast some more popular shows as well.

Speaker A00:32:01

But they do this annual podcast of the year list and they name my show in 2023, or was it 21 of those years that like the top independent podcast and like, like me and like it's something like that where you get recognized out of the blue for something like that.

Speaker A00:32:18

And you're like, okay, that is a check mark for me.

Speaker A00:32:21

I didn't have to submit to that.

Speaker A00:32:22

I didn't have to vie for that.

Speaker A00:32:24

It was just like someone out of the kindness of their heart listened through all these podcasts and chose and make and created a list and my name happened to be up towards the top.

Speaker B00:32:32

Another nod for you that I definitely think is a win is when your name is in rooms that you're not in.

Speaker B00:32:38

So I did a live with Riverside a couple months ago, I think maybe around this time last year.

Speaker B00:32:43

And myself and another guest on the show were like, Matt Kahuli is a really great interview based host.

Speaker B00:32:49

You guys should check him out.

Speaker B00:32:50

And that's all you need to know.

Speaker B00:32:51

Everybody loves you.

Speaker A00:32:52

It's only real.

Speaker A00:32:53

Right?

Speaker A00:32:53

That's.

Speaker A00:32:54

And to your point, that's like something you can't measure, you can't imagine for yourself and you don't know what it feels like until it happens.

Speaker A00:33:02

And then you're like, like, oh, this is working okay.

Speaker A00:33:07

Like, this is Worth my time.

Speaker A00:33:09

Like other people are noticing.

Speaker A00:33:11

So, yeah, thank you for that.

Speaker A00:33:12

I love that.

Speaker A00:33:13

And I think it's funny too, when I, like, will come across a clip and I'm like, wait, that's my name.

Speaker A00:33:19

Someone just said my name.

Speaker A00:33:20

So really cool.

Speaker B00:33:22

I want to get your thoughts on doing a video podcast, especially for a show like yours, because people are sharing such intimate things and vulnerable things and also just with the inherent pushback against video podcast.

Speaker B00:33:36

I obviously have my thoughts and opinions and stances on that as a filmmaker, but would love to hear your thoughts on, like, why you thought a video podcast format was like, the way to go for your show.

Speaker A00:33:47

I never thought that, but I did it.

Speaker A00:33:50

It was just another thing that someone said.

Speaker A00:33:53

And I said, oh, I need to do it.

Speaker A00:33:56

But I don't focus on it.

Speaker A00:33:58

So I don't.

Speaker A00:33:59

Like, when I'm editing my episodes, I always think audio first.

Speaker A00:34:05

I always think what that more intimate experience for me is because someone's in my headphone that I'm listening to as I'm going through life.

Speaker A00:34:15

Whatever I'm doing when I'm listening to podcasts, that's how I was introduced to podcasts.

Speaker A00:34:18

I don't really watch a lot of YouTube videos myself, but I do offer the video as well.

Speaker A00:34:25

I've only had one instance in which someone was like, I don't want to be on video.

Speaker A00:34:29

And they went by a fake name in that episode because they had a restraining order against people that they were talking about.

Speaker A00:34:34

And so that's what we did there.

Speaker A00:34:36

But I find that most people open up more when we're recording the video, which is really weird in if you think about it, right?

Speaker A00:34:44

Like, I feel like you might be more open if nobody could see you being open.

Speaker A00:34:50

But people tend to really dump all of their internal feelings in a good way in a conversation and open up as if we're old friends.

Speaker A00:35:00

And so I think there's value in seeing how two people can interact in this new digital world, that we're in a hyper digital world in which most things happen remotely, that you can still create those connections.

Speaker A00:35:13

And I create the videos so that people can see how to have a conversation, like how to listen to somebody.

Speaker A00:35:21

If I look at my episode sound waves, 80% of it is my guest and like 20 of it's me.

Speaker A00:35:29

And then I think of like the 20, 30 year old version of Matt who felt like he needed to be heard, needed to be sounding smart every time he said something to this version where I'm just like, this is your Story to tell.

Speaker A00:35:44

I'll be here to ask the questions that I was not allowed to ask when I was a kid because maybe they're too personal.

Speaker A00:35:51

And I think it's the video allows a different aspect of that conversation to be seen, which is cool, but I don't really put much time into learning YouTube.

Speaker A00:36:04

I just plop it up there and say, have a nice day, see you later.

Speaker A00:36:08

But you're the opposite, aren't you?

Speaker A00:36:10

Do you do video first because of your film background?

Speaker B00:36:12

Yeah, my whole first season.

Speaker B00:36:14

I'd even put the audio up, really all video.

Speaker B00:36:17

And I would post the full video to Facebook at the time and I would post the full video to YouTube.

Speaker B00:36:23

I am a youtuber in the sense that I like watching a lot of YouTube videos.

Speaker B00:36:27

Like I've been watching YouTube since I was like in high school.

Speaker B00:36:29

So it's been a part of my personal ethos and culture since my formative years.

Speaker B00:36:35

And there was always a part of me that was like, I want to be a YouTuber, I want to create videos for YouTube at some point.

Speaker B00:36:42

And a lot of my videos really mirror how I felt like YouTube was in its prime.

Speaker B00:36:47

I feel like a lot of people feel like YouTube is in its prime now because of how cheap cameras have gotten and the production quality and all this stuff.

Speaker B00:36:56

Like people setting up home offices that are just for YouTube.

Speaker B00:36:59

None of that mattered when I was first watching.

Speaker B00:37:02

What mattered was, were you entertaining?

Speaker B00:37:04

Could you record it?

Speaker B00:37:05

Could you actually be funny?

Speaker B00:37:06

That was it.

Speaker A00:37:07

Yeah.

Speaker B00:37:08

That's what I optimize for in my solo videos especially.

Speaker B00:37:10

It's like playing around, having fun, showing my personality, but also being somewhat educational but and not really caring about making these larger than life transitions and motion.

Speaker B00:37:22

Like none of that matters.

Speaker B00:37:24

Either the video is good or it's not.

Speaker B00:37:26

And you need motion graphics to make it better.

Speaker B00:37:28

It doesn't matter.

Speaker B00:37:29

It's not good in the first place.

Speaker B00:37:31

So that's my approach to YouTube.

Speaker B00:37:33

And my YouTube video views have always outpaced my audio.

Speaker B00:37:38

And at first I was like, maybe it's because I put this first season out on audio like after it was already recorded.

Speaker B00:37:43

So I didn't have that real time like marketing engagement.

Speaker B00:37:46

But now I would say even with this month, this past month of me doing solo like audio videos, like I still don't think I'm anywhere near in the realm of what I've done on YouTube.

Speaker B00:37:57

Like I think I'm in like the 6 or 7 thousands in audio, but I'm in like the 10 thousands in video views.

Speaker B00:38:04

So it's just like a night and day.

Speaker A00:38:06

Yeah.

Speaker B00:38:06

Outpacing.

Speaker B00:38:07

And I haven't actually put out long form video for the podcast since about halfway through this last season.

Speaker B00:38:13

So if I had been doing video, putting out video episodes and putting out video episodes of my solo ones, it would not even be close.

Speaker A00:38:20

And that's a challenge too for me because I'm like, I don't really know the SEO process for YouTube for like discoverability.

Speaker A00:38:30

And I feel like that's a big part of the game as well, to do it right so that you can play properly in the algorithm.

Speaker A00:38:39

Right.

Speaker A00:38:39

I feel like I'm just cheating myself there too.

Speaker A00:38:42

But again, time.

Speaker B00:38:43

Yeah, time is a big thing.

Speaker B00:38:44

And I do think that YouTube packaging is like its whole.

Speaker B00:38:49

Whole other thing.

Speaker B00:38:49

Like, I've definitely paid for help on YouTube.

Speaker A00:38:52

Yeah.

Speaker B00:38:53

Whether or not it was worth the amount that I paid.

Speaker B00:38:55

Another question.

Speaker B00:38:56

But we've all done that.

Speaker B00:38:59

Yeah.

Speaker B00:39:00

But I definitely have learned a lot from the people that I've worked with on you.

Speaker B00:39:03

How to get better at packaging.

Speaker B00:39:04

Am I perfect at it?

Speaker B00:39:05

No.

Speaker B00:39:05

I still haven't hit a thousand subscribers, but I'm happy with the views that I've gotten and with now the consistency that I've been building on the platform.

Speaker B00:39:13

That feels really good.

Speaker A00:39:14

Yeah.

Speaker B00:39:15

Yeah.

Speaker B00:39:15

It's just a whole different platform.

Speaker A00:39:17

Yeah.

Speaker A00:39:17

But I feel like that's your space.

Speaker A00:39:20

Like you said, it was like your formative years, so it's like comfortable to go there as well.

Speaker A00:39:24

Whereas for me it's.

Speaker A00:39:25

This is like I'm old, like this vast wasteland of videos everywhere and how do I compete?

Speaker A00:39:31

So that's why I'm just like, I'm just gonna put it there and if someone, the right person finds it and finds value in it, then it's a win for me.

Speaker A00:39:38

That's my check mark.

Speaker B00:39:39

Yeah.

Speaker A00:39:39

Plus it's a good marketing tool for the guests.

Speaker A00:39:42

Right.

Speaker A00:39:42

Like now they have an extra thing they can point people to.

Speaker B00:39:45

Yeah.

Speaker B00:39:45

No, for sure.

Speaker B00:39:46

I think too, especially as someone who runs a video production company.

Speaker B00:39:51

I think it's also been an interesting co sign.

Speaker B00:39:54

Like when people.

Speaker B00:39:54

I would put the.

Speaker B00:39:55

And I still do put a link to my podcast in my email signature.

Speaker B00:40:00

So sometimes when people reach out to me and I respond, they'll click on that link and they'll be like, oh, you had so and so on your show.

Speaker B00:40:06

I love them.

Speaker B00:40:06

Of course I'll work with you.

Speaker B00:40:07

So it's always, yeah, you didn't even need to look at my portfolio.

Speaker B00:40:10

You looked at my podcast.

Speaker B00:40:11

Is that what we're doing.

Speaker B00:40:13

So that was an interesting, interesting find and side benefit to having a video podcast because it was like I had worked with them on a video project before.

Speaker B00:40:21

So it was like this automatic.

Speaker B00:40:23

It was for better, for worse part of my portfolio, which was cool.

Speaker A00:40:26

Yeah.

Speaker A00:40:27

What's your favorite part about podcasting?

Speaker A00:40:29

And then I want to know what your least favorite part is.

Speaker A00:40:31

You can start with.

Speaker B00:40:32

Start with the least favorite.

Speaker B00:40:34

My least favorite has actually been audio.

Speaker B00:40:36

Because I feel like that's a weakness, especially when I first started was a weakness of mine.

Speaker B00:40:40

I didn't understand audio and how to record for two people and not just one person.

Speaker B00:40:45

So that was a big deal.

Speaker B00:40:46

And it took.

Speaker B00:40:47

I actually took down all season one episodes because the audio was so terrible.

Speaker B00:40:51

I was like, this isn't what I want somebody to start with on the show.

Speaker B00:40:54

We're just gonna unpublish these and act like they didn't happen.

Speaker B00:40:57

So a lot of times people start with the trailer and then they go straight into season two, which has drastically better audio and gets better from there each season.

Speaker B00:41:04

And even now, like, even just getting a podcast mic for my virtual recordings, that took ages.

Speaker B00:41:09

And like learning how to use it properly to get the best sound out of it.

Speaker B00:41:12

Ages.

Speaker B00:41:13

And I'm ashamed to say that, but it is the truth.

Speaker B00:41:15

And I do think that's something that people don't think about when they do a podcast.

Speaker B00:41:18

They think they can just turn on their cell phone.

Speaker A00:41:21

A lot of people do.

Speaker B00:41:22

Yeah.

Speaker B00:41:23

And it's just, hey, this doesn't sound good.

Speaker B00:41:25

And that's the whole point.

Speaker B00:41:26

It needs to sound good.

Speaker B00:41:27

So it's taken, it's taken five years for me to get better at audio.

Speaker B00:41:30

Roughly five years.

Speaker B00:41:31

And my favorite part, honestly, is the most expensive part, which is filming in person.

Speaker B00:41:40

If you're surprised by how vulnerable people are willing to be on video, just times up by 10 in person because now they're sitting in a room with you.

Speaker B00:41:48

I try to give people water, make sure they have something to drink, a nice soft chair, relaxing vibes.

Speaker B00:41:54

And they're just like, by the end of it, we're old friends.

Speaker B00:41:57

And I think a lot of people that I've met in person, I still do keep in contact with everybody.

Speaker B00:42:02

That is also a really big thing too.

Speaker B00:42:03

I feel like it's important for interview based shows not just have this revolving door of people coming through, but actually building relationships with people that I have on the show, but for the people that I have in person.

Speaker B00:42:13

That relationship and that affinity happens so much faster than it does with People that I have remotely, I think remotely.

Speaker B00:42:19

It takes a few more touch points, a little bit more of me following up after the interview to like really get people comfortable having that two way street of us talking.

Speaker A00:42:26

Yeah.

Speaker B00:42:27

But in person it's like immediate.

Speaker B00:42:29

Oh, you're gonna be here.

Speaker B00:42:30

Yeah, I'll see you there, girl.

Speaker B00:42:31

Oh, I'm going this weekend.

Speaker B00:42:32

You should try out this vacation spot.

Speaker B00:42:34

Oh, you should.

Speaker B00:42:34

We should meet up for coffee at this spot.

Speaker B00:42:36

Like just crazy amounts of affinity, which I love.

Speaker B00:42:39

But I do think we're going to try some different things other than just a sit down interview this year.

Speaker B00:42:44

After 100 plus episodes, I'm tired of that format.

Speaker B00:42:46

So that was also maybe my selfish thing with this solo challenge was like, I want to fall in love with podcasting again.

Speaker A00:42:53

Yeah.

Speaker A00:42:54

As you should.

Speaker B00:42:55

Yeah.

Speaker A00:42:55

If you're going to spend so much time doing it, why would you want to do something you don't that doesn't light you up as much as it used to?

Speaker B00:43:01

I think it just, I think I just got bored with it.

Speaker B00:43:04

And it's not any of my guests fault.

Speaker B00:43:05

They're all amazing.

Speaker B00:43:06

I love them all.

Speaker B00:43:07

But I think just for me as a creator, I get like stir crazy and I'm just like, okay, I've mastered this one thing, let me go do something else.

Speaker B00:43:14

And that's a point where I was at 2, I was like, let me try something else with the podcast and just see what sticks and maybe paved a way for me to do some different styles of in person podcasting and interviews and stuff like that.

Speaker A00:43:26

So I like it.

Speaker A00:43:27

I think you should like what?

Speaker A00:43:29

You should like what you're doing.

Speaker B00:43:30

I think so too, right?

Speaker B00:43:32

I think so.

Speaker B00:43:33

But I think, and I guess here's another maybe perspective on this too, as a video podcaster, primarily because video podcasting has blown up within the past year or so, especially with celebrities getting into the video podcast game to varying levels of quality.

Speaker B00:43:48

Sure, absolutely.

Speaker B00:43:49

I think a lot of audio only podcasters are feeling the pinch of why should I do this?

Speaker B00:43:54

This is boring.

Speaker B00:43:55

This is a boring format.

Speaker B00:43:56

I don't want to do it.

Speaker B00:43:58

It doesn't feel innate to me as a creator.

Speaker B00:44:00

My response is always, if you don't like it, don't do it.

Speaker B00:44:03

Just to your point, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

Speaker B00:44:05

Because this is something that is probably not going to make you a lot of money starting out, if at all.

Speaker B00:44:11

And but for me, as someone who started off with this format years ago, before it was popular, I'm like Okay.

Speaker B00:44:17

This isn't the only way to do a video podcast.

Speaker B00:44:19

And maybe part of me just wants to spread my wings creatively and be like, I'm a video podcast.

Speaker B00:44:25

But we don't just do sit down interviews.

Speaker B00:44:26

We have done that.

Speaker B00:44:27

We can do that.

Speaker B00:44:28

We are capable of that.

Speaker B00:44:30

But there's also other ways that you can experiment with doing in person episodes.

Speaker B00:44:33

And I want to get people excited about the format of video podcasting in the way that I'm excited about it as a creator.

Speaker B00:44:40

And again, this.

Speaker B00:44:41

While I didn't do a lot of video for the solo episodes, some of them I will turn into video episodes because just what I've noticed with YouTube, you do have to make videos specifically for the platform.

Speaker B00:44:53

And that sounds so simple.

Speaker B00:44:54

But like a video that's going to do well on TikTok may not really do well on YouTube.

Speaker B00:44:59

And so that's something that I think about as well.

Speaker A00:45:02

So more time.

Speaker A00:45:04

Yeah, that comes along with it.

Speaker A00:45:05

No, but I think that's, I think that's great.

Speaker A00:45:07

I think you have.

Speaker A00:45:08

It's your podcast.

Speaker A00:45:09

It's.

Speaker A00:45:10

You could do whatever you want and you're seemingly really in touch with your audience as well and asking them questions and them asking you questions.

Speaker A00:45:18

I feel like that's an easy win of.

Speaker A00:45:20

Do you like this?

Speaker A00:45:21

I like it.

Speaker A00:45:22

This is what I'm gonna do.

Speaker A00:45:23

How do you feel about this new vibe?

Speaker A00:45:25

And you have that comfortable, comfortable connection with them to figure that out?

Speaker B00:45:29

Yeah, go for it.

Speaker B00:45:30

Try to.

Speaker B00:45:31

I try to.

Speaker B00:45:32

We'll see.

Speaker B00:45:33

But I think it's gonna be fun.

Speaker A00:45:34

Yeah.

Speaker B00:45:34

At least I'm gonna have fun.

Speaker B00:45:35

And I hope that fun translates to them.

Speaker A00:45:37

Oh, it will.

Speaker A00:45:38

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A00:45:38

I think of, I think a video as I have it.

Speaker A00:45:41

Why not use it?

Speaker A00:45:42

Versus I'm crafting something specifically for video.

Speaker A00:45:45

I'm crafting something specifically for audio, but I happen to have the video, so why wouldn't I use it for you then?

Speaker B00:45:53

What are your favorite and least favorite parts of podcasting?

Speaker A00:45:56

We'll start with least favorite, and that is marketing the podcast.

Speaker A00:46:02

And part of me is I feel like I'm screaming into the void sometimes where I'm just like, here it is, you know, everyone you know.

Speaker A00:46:10

And I understand that people that see your posts aren't always going to engage with your post, but they still might see it and it might resonate and it might do all the things that you want it to do, but you just don't know.

Speaker A00:46:21

So I understand that, but it just sometimes it feels like, yeah, Matt, we know you Have a podcast and you had a really inspiring guest on and they have a really important story.

Speaker A00:46:31

We know we get it.

Speaker A00:46:32

And so every time I post I'm like, so the marketing part is really the part I don't.

Speaker A00:46:38

I think hate is the wrong word, but it's the part that I feel that I wish I liked more and I wish I felt I was good at it.

Speaker A00:46:46

And that's the thing on, if I can outsource anything, that's probably going to be the thing that I'm going to outsource some help with because it's not as natural as I want it to feel for me.

Speaker A00:46:57

So that's the part that I struggle with the most.

Speaker A00:47:01

I should say, not hate.

Speaker A00:47:02

And the thing I love the most is like twofold one.

Speaker A00:47:07

Obviously I love that I get to hear and witness these stories because I think of the eight year old version of me whose mom just died and felt like I was the only kid who had a dead mom.

Speaker A00:47:20

It just felt so alone in that.

Speaker A00:47:23

And growing up I, I thought my dad needed to see that I was happy and I needed to be perfect so he wouldn't leave.

Speaker A00:47:31

Because in.

Speaker A00:47:32

When I was a kid, it felt like my mom left because she died.

Speaker A00:47:35

And so if I had been able to see a 40 year old version of Matt being successful or doing whatever he wanted to do and realizing that, oh, there is, there's hope, you're not alone.

Speaker A00:47:49

Other people have gone through this.

Speaker A00:47:50

So I think about that when I hold space for these particular stories, it just feels maybe this person is going to heal from sharing their story.

Speaker A00:47:59

Maybe someone out there is, am I the only one going through this?

Speaker A00:48:02

And they hear it.

Speaker A00:48:02

So I think that's my favorite part.

Speaker A00:48:04

In tandem with the fact that the show feels like it's doing what it's supposed to do because I haven't had to look for a guest and since October 2022.

Speaker A00:48:16

So like I get so many pitches.

Speaker A00:48:18

Obviously some of them are terrible and we just don't talk about those.

Speaker A00:48:21

But I get so many like really hyper focused, super specific pitches from people that like want to share their story in a way that they haven't shared it before or whatever it may be for the first time.

Speaker A00:48:33

I had a lot of people that have come on and shared this like publicly for the first time.

Speaker A00:48:37

And that part is just who me.

Speaker A00:48:40

Like that little kid in me is like you, you pick me.

Speaker A00:48:43

Like when you were saying people talk about me when I'm not in the room like me.

Speaker A00:48:48

So there's that, that, that Part I think lights me up the most is that people are willing to talk to me, the stranger, about their personal stories.

Speaker A00:48:58

Allow me to ask the questions that maybe we're not supposed to ask.

Speaker A00:49:01

I think I said that before.

Speaker A00:49:03

I don't know.

Speaker A00:49:03

I think so many of us grew up like our parents told us, you don't say that stuff out loud or you don't ask that type of question.

Speaker A00:49:10

And now feeling comfortable enough to do that, I think probably lights me up the most.

Speaker A00:49:15

Even if the story is like super traumatic and terrible, it's.

Speaker A00:49:19

But it's a human story, right?

Speaker A00:49:21

And not everything is sunshine and rainbows.

Speaker A00:49:24

So sometimes we have to talk about the hard stuff.

Speaker A00:49:26

And I think that's where we connect with each other the most, is in those harder moments.

Speaker B00:49:32

No, I love that.

Speaker B00:49:32

And I think that's, I think, again, what makes your show so special and why people are so willing to talk about it when you're not in the room.

Speaker B00:49:40

Because sometimes when you're even listening to these type of shows and stories, you're like, oh, I need to make space as the listener right now.

Speaker B00:49:48

And it may take you a little minute to process what you heard and think about what that story means to you.

Speaker B00:49:54

But then to go back really as a podcaster and just appreciate your ability as a host to bring that out of someone that you likely have never met in person, may never meet in person, is also a very skilled thing to do.

Speaker B00:50:08

And again, I think with the rise of celebrity podcasting and their shows being primarily interview focused shows, we are seeing that interviewing is a skill.

Speaker B00:50:21

And I think people are appreciating this skill and the vulnerability and the intentionality that you bring to the space, I'll.

Speaker A00:50:29

Tell you my secret.

Speaker A00:50:31

Listening.

Speaker A00:50:33

That's it.

Speaker A00:50:34

Listen.

Speaker A00:50:35

As a genuinely curious human being that cares about someone else's story.

Speaker A00:50:41

Right.

Speaker A00:50:41

I think you don't need to know much more than that secret.

Speaker A00:50:45

I don't research my guests because I don't want to know.

Speaker B00:50:48

Interesting.

Speaker A00:50:49

Because if I know, being a type A person as I am, if I know I'm going to take that conversation exactly down the path that I've planned out in my head.

Speaker A00:51:00

But if I don't have all that background and it's uncovered alive in front of me and someone's going to shock me with whatever they're going to say next, it allows me the freedom to release any preconceived questions that I might come in with and run down that path.

Speaker A00:51:16

Because they might come on, talk, want to talk about something else, but they Said something that, like, pointed us way in another direction.

Speaker A00:51:22

And that is where that conversation, in my opinion, was supposed to go.

Speaker A00:51:27

And so I think, like, I don't have a lot of technical interviewing skills, but I've taught myself now with this podcast, thankfully, to listen and be curious and ask the questions.

Speaker A00:51:40

And I always tell people, I'm like, I don't do a lot of research because the questions are coming from my own curiosity.

Speaker A00:51:47

And I tell them, I'm like, but if I say something that is wildly inappropriate or something that you just don't want to answer, please feel free to tell me.

Speaker A00:51:56

No, no, Matt, that's crazy.

Speaker A00:51:58

Why would you ask me that question?

Speaker A00:52:00

So far, nobody's done that, so that's good.

Speaker A00:52:03

But at the same time, it gives everyone the freedom to.

Speaker A00:52:06

To have the conversation go where it's supposed to go.

Speaker A00:52:09

So I just gave away all my secrets.

Speaker A00:52:11

But they're very easy.

Speaker A00:52:12

Everyone can do it.

Speaker B00:52:13

I think not everyone can do that.

Speaker B00:52:15

Let me just be clear.

Speaker B00:52:18

No.

Speaker B00:52:19

And I say that as someone who is maybe a little more the opposite, where I do put a lot of time into researching my guest.

Speaker A00:52:25

I saw your face when I said that.

Speaker B00:52:28

My face was like, what?

Speaker B00:52:30

This is unheard of.

Speaker B00:52:31

No research.

Speaker B00:52:32

But I think, too, like, the reason why I say not everybody can do that is because.

Speaker B00:52:38

And I'll say this about me, when I first started interviewing people, when I didn't maybe put as much time into research or anything like that, there would be times where I'm like, oh, they said something that was really good.

Speaker B00:52:49

I want to go down that path.

Speaker B00:52:50

But then I'm going to forget the question that I had originally.

Speaker B00:52:53

And sometimes, like, I just had to learn.

Speaker B00:52:55

Sometimes you just got to leave it and be okay with leaving it and be okay with the direction that the conversation naturally flows.

Speaker B00:53:02

And even in research, like, I'll have certain things that I want to talk about.

Speaker B00:53:05

And part of that, too, can from, again, making videos for YouTube.

Speaker B00:53:09

Like, you have to have a value proposition video.

Speaker B00:53:12

And what is the curiosity loop that I have as an interviewer that I want to close with this interview?

Speaker B00:53:18

And so that's where some of the research comes in.

Speaker B00:53:21

But also, again, like, as long as I meet whatever my curiosity gap is, we can talk about whatever.

Speaker B00:53:27

I literally had somebody on the show, and we were talking about how old black women love watching old westerns.

Speaker B00:53:33

Like, really?

Speaker B00:53:33

What does that have to do with business?

Speaker B00:53:35

Absolutely nothing.

Speaker B00:53:36

But we were interested, so we talked about.

Speaker A00:53:38

I didn't know this was a thing.

Speaker A00:53:40

Andy Griffith.

Speaker A00:53:40

Did you just say Andy Griffith was all Western.

Speaker A00:53:43

Yeah, it was Mayberry, but that's a different story.

Speaker A00:53:46

We could go down that avenue at another point, but no, I accept that.

Speaker A00:53:50

But also, I love that you just said that you've given yourself the permission to forget the questions.

Speaker A00:53:57

That's something that I talked to Kendall at Riverside about.

Speaker A00:54:01

It was like, some.

Speaker A00:54:02

Which we had a conversation about, like, how do you get people to open up?

Speaker A00:54:04

And, like, how do you listen?

Speaker A00:54:05

And all these things.

Speaker A00:54:06

I was like, first thing I had to do was allow myself to forget so that I can continue listening.

Speaker A00:54:12

Because your guests might keep talking, and instead of listening to what else is happening, you're stuck on this.

Speaker A00:54:17

Oh, that's a good idea.

Speaker A00:54:18

I'm gonna ask them that.

Speaker A00:54:19

And you're not even listening to the rest of the story, so you just have to give yourself permission.

Speaker A00:54:23

So I love that you do that.

Speaker A00:54:25

But close your loops.

Speaker A00:54:26

Those are important.

Speaker B00:54:29

Another interview technique that I think you do really well is active listening.

Speaker B00:54:34

I know you say, oh, I just listen.

Speaker B00:54:35

I just ask questions.

Speaker B00:54:37

But I do think you give a lot of, like, physical responses, which is why the video probably does better than what you expect.

Speaker B00:54:44

But when I see your short clips, whenever you do post them, I know it's a whole thing.

Speaker B00:54:48

But whenever you do post your short clips, I'm like, yo.

Speaker B00:54:52

It always starts off with you being like, I am attentive.

Speaker B00:54:54

I am here.

Speaker B00:54:55

Like, I am focused on whatever you are saying.

Speaker B00:54:58

And I think that is something that, again, like, even in regular conversation, people struggle with.

Speaker B00:55:04

They'll ask you something, and then they'll be like, okay, I'm gonna order a drink now.

Speaker B00:55:06

Oh, I'm gonna look at this plant.

Speaker B00:55:08

Or, oh, I'm gonna stare at this girl's hair or something.

Speaker B00:55:11

We just get so distracted so easily that it's easy for people to feel like they're not being listened to even in everyday conversation.

Speaker B00:55:18

So when you're, like, on an interview like this, even a remote interview, when people feel like, oh, they're tuned in.

Speaker B00:55:24

Oh, they're actually listening.

Speaker B00:55:25

Oh, they're giving me, like, feedback.

Speaker B00:55:26

Oh, they're not just nodding, but they're, like, actually reacting to what I'm saying, that is a level of nuance that especially indie podcasters may not really pick up on sometimes.

Speaker A00:55:37

Do you ever black out when you're doing interviews?

Speaker B00:55:41

I don't think that I've ever done that.

Speaker A00:55:43

So let me explain.

Speaker A00:55:46

I have this.

Speaker A00:55:47

It's not all the time, but every once in a while, maybe more often that I will be doing an interview and I'll have this beautiful conversation and it will end and then I'll go to edit it and I'll be like, I don't remember saying that.

Speaker A00:56:01

Like, I don't remember part.

Speaker A00:56:02

Like, it's like a brand new experience when I go in to edit it.

Speaker A00:56:06

And so, like, part of it is, oh, Matt, you were doing your job.

Speaker A00:56:09

You were there.

Speaker A00:56:10

But, like, I was totally, like, there and nowhere else.

Speaker A00:56:13

And then I.

Speaker A00:56:14

To the point that I don't even remember it.

Speaker A00:56:16

So it's really fascinating to me.

Speaker A00:56:18

So know, maybe I'm just the only one that does that.

Speaker B00:56:20

Oh, no.

Speaker B00:56:21

The only time that I'll forget what I've said is if it's been a long time since I recorded oh no, between the edit.

Speaker B00:56:26

Then I'm like, okay, what did we talk about?

Speaker B00:56:28

What was said?

Speaker A00:56:29

This will be like two hours later as I'm editing the episode and I'll be listening and I'm like, I don't remember saying that two hours ago in the conversation.

Speaker A00:56:42

Like, to me, it's a good thing, I guess, because I'm fully, like, to your point, I'm fully there for them.

Speaker A00:56:48

I mean, the old version of Matt, when I was really trying to climb the corporate ladder, was always just waiting for the next silence.

Speaker A00:56:55

It wasn't waiting to engage, right?

Speaker A00:56:58

It was just like, where's the next silence?

Speaker A00:57:00

So that I can say the smartest thing in the room that was on my piece of paper.

Speaker A00:57:04

I wasn't listening to anyone else.

Speaker A00:57:05

I don't know what I just showed you.

Speaker A00:57:07

So it's a nice thing to notice these little silly quirks that I have now when I listen.

Speaker A00:57:11

It's just, I don't know.

Speaker A00:57:13

I love this journey.

Speaker A00:57:13

I love.

Speaker A00:57:14

I don't care if I don't make a ton of money from it.

Speaker A00:57:17

I don't care that everyone has hobbies, right, that you pay for.

Speaker A00:57:20

So if I'm spending some money every month to do this that makes me feel this good, then I feel like we're all winning.

Speaker B00:57:26

I want to go back.

Speaker B00:57:26

So you've said this a couple times in this conversation where you will say, when I was younger, I just wanted to be the smartest person in the room.

Speaker B00:57:34

And I would always be looking for an opportunity to show that I was the smartest person in the room.

Speaker B00:57:39

And that equated to not maybe being as good of a listener as you are now.

Speaker B00:57:43

I think I equate to that on some level.

Speaker B00:57:47

Like, I started my podcast when I was 26, so relatively young and I'm 31 now.

Speaker B00:57:53

So five years later, I'm a much, hopefully more mature person and more experienced person and have definitely learned that I am not the smartest person in the room.

Speaker B00:58:02

But I do think that I started this show because I knew I would.

Speaker B00:58:05

I knew I was fresh off of being full time.

Speaker B00:58:08

Like, I just started going full time when I started this show, and I was like, there's people who have been doing this for a year.

Speaker B00:58:14

So I always.

Speaker B00:58:15

Maybe this show was my opportunity to really intentionally be in a space where I knew I wasn't the smartest person in the conversation.

Speaker B00:58:22

And it forced me in a good way.

Speaker B00:58:24

I was really receptive to that natural progression of me just listening and taking that listener role.

Speaker B00:58:31

But I don't think that a lot of people would put themselves in that position knowingly a lot of times, like, pre 30, because, again, like, we.

Speaker B00:58:39

We're focused on having career sustainability, we're trying to grow our income, we're trying to do all the things that we think we're capable of in our 20s that maybe are just interesting stepping stones into who we are as people.

Speaker A00:58:53

Yeah, no, I think it's.

Speaker A00:58:54

I think that's commendable.

Speaker A00:58:56

I don't think a lot of people in their 20s would choose to do something that maybe would make them uncomfortable, their normal kind of route.

Speaker A00:59:04

I was very much.

Speaker A00:59:05

And I still have the perfectionist tendencies.

Speaker A00:59:08

To me, that was like, I don't want to choose a lot of things that I know that I might not be good at.

Speaker A00:59:16

I don't know for sure that I'm good at.

Speaker A00:59:18

Maybe is a better way to say that, like, I would choose the easiest classes in school because I knew I was going to get an A, and therefore my family would be proud and, like, at all the things that would snowball in that way.

Speaker A00:59:32

And so during the pandemic, I got a second master master's degree because I was bored.

Speaker A00:59:36

And when I went into it, I told myself that I was only going to choose the electives that scared me.

Speaker A00:59:44

So in your way of doing your podcast, that was me in my 40s of choosing hard things, like the class that I'm like, I don't know what that means.

Speaker A00:59:55

So I'm gonna take that class.

Speaker A00:59:56

Like this podcast, the Life Shift, came from a class in that program, and I chose the podcasting class because I was like, that's scary.

Speaker A01:00:05

I don't know how to do that.

Speaker A01:00:06

What should I do?

Speaker A01:00:07

How.

Speaker A01:00:08

Who's going to listen to, like, all the thoughts that come in your head?

Speaker A01:00:11

But then it forced me to do it.

Speaker A01:00:12

And here we are, I'm starting my fourth year and in this month.

Speaker A01:00:16

So you never know.

Speaker A01:00:18

These things probably are the things we should be doing.

Speaker A01:00:21

The things that are hard, that are scary.

Speaker A01:00:23

Bring us to those points.

Speaker B01:00:24

I have a question.

Speaker B01:00:25

So I didn't know you were four years in, but that does make sense.

Speaker B01:00:27

What's the timeline?

Speaker B01:00:29

How, like, how do you feel about going to podcasts industry events?

Speaker B01:00:33

Is that something that you've done in the past?

Speaker B01:00:35

Is something that you want to do, care to do?

Speaker A01:00:37

I want to do.

Speaker A01:00:40

I'm scared to do.

Speaker A01:00:42

Because I feel like I'm gonna have to defend the way that I do me and my podcast.

Speaker A01:00:49

Right.

Speaker A01:00:49

Like, to the whole point of the industry telling us what we should be doing or we should be doing this, we should be doing that.

Speaker A01:00:54

Why are you doing this?

Speaker A01:00:55

Why are you doing it that way?

Speaker A01:00:57

You should be cutting this out, like, whatever it may be.

Speaker A01:00:59

So I haven't gone yet.

Speaker A01:01:00

I live in Orlando, which is right down the street from podfest, or I think that's what it's called.

Speaker A01:01:06

Right?

Speaker B01:01:07

Yeah.

Speaker A01:01:07

Every January.

Speaker A01:01:08

I even had a free ticket, like, two years ago.

Speaker A01:01:11

And I didn't go because I do have this fear.

Speaker A01:01:14

I don't know why.

Speaker A01:01:16

That I'm gonna have to defend things or make it.

Speaker A01:01:19

I don't know.

Speaker A01:01:20

I don't know why I don't go, but I should go because I like talking to other podcasters.

Speaker B01:01:26

I haven't been a podfest yet, but I have been to a couple podcast events, hoping to do a couple more this year.

Speaker B01:01:33

They're fun.

Speaker B01:01:34

I've never felt like I've had to defend.

Speaker A01:01:36

That's good.

Speaker B01:01:37

Myself, I have definitely been in situations where I felt uncomfortable.

Speaker A01:01:41

I would love to go and be part of a panel.

Speaker A01:01:43

Have you done that yet?

Speaker B01:01:44

No.

Speaker B01:01:45

Yes.

Speaker B01:01:45

Yes.

Speaker B01:01:46

I did a panel last year at Afros and Audio.

Speaker B01:01:48

I would love to do another panel.

Speaker B01:01:50

They feel so much less stressful than developing a talk.

Speaker B01:01:52

My God.

Speaker B01:01:53

But, yeah, so, yeah, I would love to do a panel again.

Speaker B01:01:55

So if you ever want to do a panel.

Speaker A01:01:57

Yeah, that's.

Speaker A01:01:58

I feel like that's how I dip my toe in it.

Speaker A01:02:00

Oh, I have to go.

Speaker A01:02:01

Because I'm part of this panel, but also now I can interact with all the other podcasters.

Speaker B01:02:05

Yeah.

Speaker B01:02:05

Yeah.

Speaker B01:02:06

And I feel like having just that speaker badge just lets people.

Speaker B01:02:09

Puts people at ease.

Speaker B01:02:09

Like, then you don't really have to.

Speaker A01:02:10

Defend, and there's really nothing to defend.

Speaker A01:02:13

Right.

Speaker A01:02:13

Because this is mine.

Speaker A01:02:14

I can do whatever I want with my show.

Speaker A01:02:16

So there's nothing to defend.

Speaker A01:02:18

I think it's just that.

Speaker A01:02:19

That perfectionist thing.

Speaker A01:02:20

And I think it's.

Speaker A01:02:21

As soon as I go, I would realize, like, why did I wait?

Speaker A01:02:25

But also it's the apprehension, it's the.

Speaker A01:02:27

The pre nervousness of actually going that I just haven't gone yet.

Speaker A01:02:30

So maybe next year or later this year.

Speaker A01:02:33

I'm sure there are places to go.

Speaker B01:02:34

Yeah.

Speaker B01:02:35

Okay.

Speaker B01:02:36

Okay.

Speaker B01:02:36

I just want to plant the seed.

Speaker A01:02:37

Yeah.

Speaker A01:02:38

Planted.

Speaker A01:02:38

Planted.

Speaker A01:02:39

There is soil and water.

Speaker A01:02:41

It's germinating.

Speaker A01:02:43

Is that the word?

Speaker B01:02:44

That is the word.

Speaker B01:02:45

I think we're gonna go with it even if it's not.

Speaker B01:02:47

How about that?

Speaker B01:02:48

Because this is our show.

Speaker A01:02:49

Exactly.

Speaker A01:02:50

No, I think this is.

Speaker A01:02:51

I love that we've been able to have this conversation so openly about the way that we do because our shows couldn't be more different.

Speaker A01:02:59

Right.

Speaker A01:02:59

Like, I feel like our approaches are different.

Speaker A01:03:02

Our feelings about how we like why we make, the choices we make are different.

Speaker A01:03:07

You do a lot of research, you do a lot of script writing.

Speaker A01:03:09

I do none of that.

Speaker A01:03:10

I don't like to know much more than a form, but yet there's so much that I can relate to about the way you feel about your projects and the things that you do.

Speaker A01:03:20

And so it again, it's like one of these things where like our worlds are so different, but so similar.

Speaker A01:03:25

And I think that's what I find in a lot of this.

Speaker A01:03:28

The conversations I have with my guests too.

Speaker A01:03:29

It's like I didn't go through what they went through, but I can feel all the same things that they're talking about right there.

Speaker A01:03:35

I love that we could have this wildly different conversation but still understand exactly how the other one's feeling.

Speaker B01:03:42

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker B01:03:43

A thousand percent.

Speaker A01:03:45

What was your favorite emotion through the 28 days of.

Speaker A01:03:50

What was the most impactful emotion?

Speaker A01:03:52

I guess I should say in that 28 days of doing this little challenge that kind of brought us to this conversation.

Speaker B01:03:57

There was a moment, it was Valentine's Day.

Speaker B01:04:00

I was in a hotel room in Asheville, North Carolina.

Speaker B01:04:04

I was there for a board meeting for a non profit that I'm on the board of.

Speaker B01:04:08

And I just remember, like being just absolutely dog tired.

Speaker B01:04:12

If you've ever been on a nonprofit board retreat, there's so much information shoved to such a small amount of time that it's like drinking from a fire hose.

Speaker B01:04:22

And I remember just this one thing that I do at the end of each day is like my own little self care.

Speaker B01:04:26

No matter how busy I get is I'll watch like an episode of a TV show just to have 30 minutes, 40 minutes to myself.

Speaker B01:04:33

And while I'm watching the TV show, I took a little minute to check, like, the stats on whatever my podcast was for that month.

Speaker B01:04:41

And I just remember being belated in this private moment in the middle of the night by myself that my show had done the most downloads we've done in a month, only halfway through the month of February.

Speaker B01:04:52

And I'm like, nobody else is going to care about this.

Speaker B01:04:55

Nobody, literally nobody in the world is up at this time of night checking my podcast test but me.

Speaker B01:04:59

And it's not something that's like, Forward facing, like, YouTube views on a video so only people would know if I told them.

Speaker B01:05:06

But I care so much that, like, people are tuning in to this extent and, like, really reacting to what I'm doing.

Speaker B01:05:13

And that was my Valentine's Day moment, which sounds so, like, cheesy and whatever, but.

Speaker B01:05:18

But I was really happy with myself.

Speaker A01:05:20

It just feels like you're on the right path when something like that happens, because you could look at that stat on a different day and feel different.

Speaker A01:05:28

Like it's all the confluence of things happening to bring you there.

Speaker A01:05:33

I think mine was at the end.

Speaker A01:05:34

And it wasn't because it was the end, but it was because it was the end.

Speaker A01:05:38

It felt like I achieved this thing that initially 30 days earlier felt so insurmountable and scary.

Speaker A01:05:47

And by the end, I had a process in place.

Speaker A01:05:50

It felt very organic.

Speaker A01:05:53

I didn't come in with scripts or anything like that.

Speaker A01:05:55

Some days I actually just was like, I would randomize my list of ideas and pick it on whatever felt the most.

Speaker A01:06:02

How vulnerable do you want to be that day, Matt?

Speaker A01:06:04

And so at the end, which is actually how I won this gift card from Riverside, but I put together, like, this video of all the openings of my.

Speaker A01:06:13

So it's day one, it's day two.

Speaker A01:06:15

Like, I told everyone what day it was and I put it together and I was like, damn, Matt, you did that.

Speaker A01:06:20

You did all 30 days in the way that you said you were going to do.

Speaker A01:06:25

And so it was like this, like a nice accomplishment thing to the point where I was like, I could do that again.

Speaker A01:06:31

Would you do it again?

Speaker B01:06:33

O.

Speaker B01:06:34

I don't know if I'm being honest, I have no idea.

Speaker A01:06:36

What if you do it every February?

Speaker B01:06:38

Are you challenging me, Matt?

Speaker A01:06:39

I'm not challenging you.

Speaker A01:06:40

I'm suggesting it.

Speaker B01:06:41

You're suggesting it.

Speaker B01:06:44

I will consider it.

Speaker B01:06:45

My anaconda will consider it.

Speaker A01:06:47

What if you do a very similar approach to what you did each day and it becomes this formulaic.

Speaker A01:06:53

Each day you have this thing, and then you can look back on your February's from the past.

Speaker B01:06:57

I will consider it.

Speaker B01:06:58

One crazy idea I had was actually doing a video with each episode every day.

Speaker A01:07:03

If I did it again, that's what I did.

Speaker A01:07:04

But it was just like me talking to the screen and saying lots of things.

Speaker A01:07:08

I think I might have cried in one of them.

Speaker A01:07:10

I'm not sure.

Speaker A01:07:11

So it's out there, you know?

Speaker A01:07:13

And I think this is how we show up as humans and this is how we do our thing.

Speaker A01:07:18

So if you do it, I'll do it.

Speaker A01:07:20

But maybe not in February.

Speaker A01:07:21

I'll choose a longer month.

Speaker B01:07:22

Okay.

Speaker B01:07:23

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

Speaker B01:07:24

So next February, catch me doing a daily podcast again.

Speaker A01:07:28

We will memorialize this particular clip and get it out there.

Speaker A01:07:32

No, thank you for wanting to chat about this.

Speaker A01:07:34

I think beyond this challenge, it's so fun to talk to other people about their process and the way they approach things.

Speaker A01:07:42

And I feel like, like I know you so much better, even though I feel like I know you through reading your newsletter and all the other pieces.

Speaker A01:07:47

But, like, this was the extra piece of, like, humanity that comes into the behind the creator kind of feeling.

Speaker A01:07:55

So thank you for this.

Speaker B01:07:56

I, I, that, to me, is the best compliment ever.

Speaker B01:07:59

Honestly, that's a win for me to hear that.

Speaker A01:08:01

So I remember we had a conversation on Zoom two years ago, maybe, and you were like, matt, just do it.

Speaker A01:08:12

Whatever we were talking about, I don't know if I did it.

Speaker A01:08:14

I don't know what it was, but it was me being like, I don't know if I can do that.

Speaker A01:08:18

You're like, just do it.

Speaker A01:08:19

What are you waiting for?

Speaker A01:08:21

So thank you for that.

Speaker A01:08:22

It stuck with me.

Speaker A01:08:23

And so I think there's.

Speaker B01:08:25

I'm an encourager.

Speaker B01:08:27

I'm an encourager.

Speaker B01:08:28

I encourage people to do crazy stuff.

Speaker B01:08:29

You encouraged me to do crazy stuff, so it paid off.

Speaker A01:08:32

Exactly.

Speaker A01:08:32

I hope your listeners and my listeners enjoyed this little conversation.

Speaker A01:08:35

That doesn't really fit either bucket of what we do, but I think it's a beautiful opportunity to get to know each other and our audiences, to get to know you and maybe me a little bit more.

Speaker A01:08:46

We will see you when our next episode comes out.

Speaker A01:09:00

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.