From Addiction and Incarceration to Justice Reform | Amanda Hall

00:00
I began that reentry phase and all of these other systems, it was hard to get a job, hard to... The thing that was consistent was that support group. Those women from prison, because a lot of the women I was in prison with went to that same recovery center. So those women supporting me, or if they found out about a job lead, or they would give me a ride because I didn't have the money to buy a car, they just held me up. Family.

00:29
They absolutely to this day. So eventually I did get some opportunities, people that believe in second chances and recovery. I did get to go to college, you know, that was really hard. I had to write all these essays like, please let me go. I promise I won't, you know. So I started college for social work. And then eventually I got to go work at that halfway house, that recovery program that I talked about. And I eventually became the director.

00:58
of that place, the first women with a felony conviction to do that, the biggest women's center in the state of Kentucky. And I loved it. In this episode, Amanda Hall shares her incredible journey of overcoming addiction and incarceration. Growing up, Amanda faced lots of challenges, including the impact of the opioid crisis in her community. She opens up about her experiences with drugs.

01:26
the lack of trust that she had in various systems that were designed to help people, and the stigma associated with addiction. Amanda's story is one of resilience and redemption. Through her recovery journey, she found hope and support in a community of individuals who understood the struggles that she went through. Together, they built the trust and provided the necessary tools so she could break free from the cycle of addiction. And it's from this support that Amanda found an opportunity

01:54
to help affect change on a wider scale. And now she works for dream.org in justice reform. She's actually able now to help people going through things now, but also in the future by changing laws, getting things changed in local communities and on a wider scale. And she does all this through her own experiences in the system. It was really an inspiring conversation for me. So if you're looking for a story of hope, redemption, and personal growth,

02:23
this is the episode for you. Before we get into the episode, I just want to thank all of my Patreon supporters. Thank you for your belief in me and your support. It helps me cover the production costs and try new things and add equipment and just get this show to more ears. So if you're interested in supporting the show, please head to patreon.com slash the Life Shift podcast and you'll find all the information about all the different tiers there. And you can enter yourself in the t-shirt giveaway. So without further ado,

02:52
I'd like to introduce you to my new friend, Amanda Hall. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:13
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with a brand new connection. Hey, Amanda. Hey, Matt. I love that you wanted to be a part of this and you're kind of making your podcast rounds now. So how's that going for you? Yeah, it's going pretty good. You know, I always get excited, nervous, but yeah, so this is no different. So I'm excited and nervous. But nervous. Yeah.

03:39
And I think that's normal. I think us as podcast hosts, we also get nervous because we want to do a service to the listeners. We want our guests to enjoy the experience. And so far, really, this truly has been one of the most fulfilling journeys that I've ever been on. And I don't know if you had an opportunity to listen to some of the episodes, but, you know, when I was a kid, my mom died in an accident. And through that journey of grief, I...

04:08
I knew it logically that I wasn't the only person to experience this, but I felt like I was the only one to, you know, going through that or had a dead parent or was just like, how do I navigate this world? And so in each episode, I hope that my guest story finds that one set of ears that just needed to hear that. Either they were feeling alone in their circumstance or they needed that extra push of inspiration.

04:35
or maybe even just some random thing that the guest said, like some random sentence hit at the right moment. And so, so far, I think we're there. And I think, knowing the little that I know about you and your journey, I think that your story will also do the same and resonate with people that are listening. So, it's just, thank you for being a part of this most fulfilling journey. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So, I like to start,

05:05
the episodes and have the guests kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this pivotal moment that we're going to talk about today. And then we can just have a conversation from there and see where it goes. So maybe you can kind of tell us who you are first. I think that would be helpful. But then give us a little bit of the background leading up to this moment and we'll go from there. Yeah. So I'm originally and still live in Appalachia.

05:35
So Central Appalachia out in Eastern Kentucky. I was actually born and raised in the county that Lyndon B. Johnson years ago declared the war on poverty. Unfortunately, it still looks a lot the same. So I grew up poor. My mother was a single mom who did absolutely the best that she could. She had been a victim.

06:04
of domestic violence for years and had a lot of trauma. So she had developed a substance use disorder. My life, you know, I was exposed to a lot of things. She was even incarcerated at one point and there was no one I loved better than my mom. You know, she was my whole entire world and she was this beautiful.

06:34
broken person that no one tried to fix, to mend, to put back together. At the time, there was no, you know, go to counseling, go to therapy. We really need to help you. It was incarceration, and it was the small town I lived in, looking down on her and talking about her. I remember when she was incarcerated. I went and...

07:03
you know, it was second grade and my teacher had the newspaper on her desk of my mother, her arrest on the front of the paper in the small town and how embarrassed and shameful and angry. Like you don't know her. She's amazing. Like she doesn't deserve that. So I grew up kind of bouncing around.

07:26
from her to my older sisters. Different systems were very much involved in my life, things like police officers and child protective services. And honestly, I resented those systems because I kept being taken away from this person that I loved so much. That seems like, as a kid.

07:53
I don't think we understand all those things as well. And we see this woman, she's doing all she can for me, you know, and she loves me and I love her. And then all these outside forces are telling me that she's different than I feel she is. And so I can imagine that, that did you feel like it was like a little bit of a burden to carry as a child? Yeah.

08:18
It did, like that. Like I said, that shame and confusion and yeah, it was a lot. But like this burden that you had to defend her and be the person that like lifted her up. Did you feel that? I don't think at that time I felt it as a burden. Like I just felt it. More of like stop talking about it. Yes. Don't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So.

08:47
In my early, early teens, something happened in the region that I'm from, and now it's really popularized. I saw that the last couple weeks there's a new show on Netflix called Painkiller, and there's a show, Dope Sick, on Hulu, but OxyContin just flooded our community.

09:16
Central Appalachia, Kentucky, you know, I'm right on the border of West Virginia. I mean, people were just dying and becoming addicted and they were telling us that that wouldn't happen. It was just a really, it was, it was a time and it hit here because there's so many, this is a former, you know, coal community and there were so many coal miners who were out of work at the time who had been injured.

09:45
severely in the mind. So these prescriptions just started getting written like crazy. Also at this time I had, you know, and I'm pretty transparent with my with my story, but I had been a victim of a sexual assault and it was something that, you know, only my friends knew. I never, you know, went to the cops. Honestly, I didn't think it would...

10:14
be helpful or I'd be listened to, you know, the kind of reputation that we had in our community. And so I was carrying that and I started to experiment with drugs and alcohol. And when I did that, it like all went away. It all went away. The pain, the worrying about my mom, the trauma, it went away. Unfortunately, that's very short lived. And eventually,

10:42
the consequences for my behaviors were so overwhelming. So I'd started experimenting with drugs and alcohol, and at first it was working, it was fine, and then I was in a car accident. I was in a car and prescribed opioids. And like I said, this was the heyday. I was 16 years old. So you were experimenting, should we use the word experimenting or were you just regularly using drugs and alcohol before this accident?

11:12
It had started alcohol and like marijuana. It was pretty regular. Yeah, it was pretty regular. And it really was you had access to something that could help you escape.

11:29
the world, essentially, at that time, to make everything feel or not feel anything. And just, you know, like this is too much of a burden. I think a lot of people can relate to that feeling of this overwhelm that we can't describe. And so there are things available to us if we choose to use them that can kind of push those, push that overwhelm away. It is that some, does that feel like kind of, maybe that's what you were doing, maybe not intentionally, but that's how that worked for you.

11:58
No, that's completely what I was doing because I felt so alone. I'd suffered this sexual assault. I felt like no one would believe me or listen to me. This situation with my mom, and there was a lot with that situation with her. Even though I took up for her, at this time I was starting to get a little resentful too, because I worried about her. Was she still away?

12:27
No, she was home, she just still suffered from her substance use disorder. So it was just a lot, it was overwhelming. Yeah, that took it, it just quieted all the noise, just for a second, the noise was like unbearable. And then you got in the accident. The car accident happened and I was prescribed opioids and that was like it.

12:54
Like I had truly found the thing that, you know, I thought at the time was going to save me. I became addicted very quickly, very, very quickly. And for a while it was really easy to go to doctors and get the pills, get the medication. And then there come a time that that was cracked down on, you know, and so it was harder.

13:23
to get that medication and I started using more illicit drugs like heroin, cocaine. It just continued to snowball. I started having a lot of consequences too. I was wondering, were you, because you said that a couple of years before that, things were starting in your community in which there was more problems. Were you fully aware of that? And then when you were prescribed?

13:54
those opioids, did you think, yes, I'm going to just dive right in? Or did you think it won't affect me? I was curious about that. Do we have as humans this denial that that's everyone else? I'm good. Is there any point that you felt that way? Yeah. I was like, that's absolutely everyone else. I was 16.

14:18
So, you know, like, of course that doesn't affect me. I can handle this. That is, yeah, I obviously really need this. A doctor told me I did. You know, I'm fine. This is fine. Because we trust it, right? We trust these people. But it's so interesting to me also, I think about this in a lot of like looking back on my teen years and how like, that's everyone else's problem. That's not my problem.

14:45
And so you found, okay, this is gonna help me with the car accident, but then it continued and kind of then you were cut off from it and it led you to more.

14:57
I can't even say dangerous, because I guess opioids are just as dangerous, right? Yeah, more illicit drugs. Isn't that kind of scary that it's easier to get those? Yeah, it was a weird time. It was a really... It was a weird time. But yeah, it came to a point that it was easier to get those. And so that took you down. Did you continue doing that?

15:26
Um, yeah, I can, I continued to use drugs. My mental health was horrible because there was definitely periods that I wanted to quit and I couldn't, and I couldn't understand why I couldn't quit. You know, there was some suicide. There were a lot of times trying to get help. Unfortunately at the time, the only thing

15:55
that really happened was you were incarcerated. Out in our community, there was no drug treatment programs, there was no kind of rehabilitation. So that's what I did, is I started getting incarcerated. So it's kind of almost like, we'll put you away, here's a pause, but how many people, after being incarcerated, are able to come back out and be clean if there's no help inside?

16:24
Yeah, it's really sad because studies show that folks' likelihood of dying from a fatal overdose is actually higher right after returning from incarceration. Is it because there's no ability to do it for the time that you're incarcerated and so you like need to like fill the giant void?

16:46
Absolutely, it's you get incarcerated and you have developed a certain tolerance You know I can do this amount of drugs to get this effect and then that stops and when you get out After that that period of not using drugs you try to pick up where you left off So often that will result in overdose Did you feel like you were in some kind of like whirlpool of like this just a spiral that you?

17:15
couldn't escape from because your town didn't have the resources. You knew you wanted to get out. You knew you wanted to be better, but there was, you just couldn't do it on your own and there were no, there was nothing there to help you. Yeah, it was absolutely, just like you said, I felt like I was trapped in this horrible cycle, this maze that I could not find a way to get out of. You know, from the time I was 18 until my mid-20s, I was incarcerated on and off.

17:45
in county jails for long periods of time. So yeah, in my mid-20s, I went to prison. I went to prison for drug trafficking for one prescription pill. Yes, I received a five-year sentence and then I received another five-year sentence for complicity for being in the same room. And this trafficking was to someone that I used with.

18:14
but this person was a confidential informant. So they had gotten in trouble and been told if you do this. That's so disheartening because you grew up like distrusting police and CPS and even teachers by showing stuff or having this newspaper as the local news. You just didn't trust anyone around you. And then the person that you

18:45
trusted was also being paid by the police that you didn't trust. So it's like, who can you trust at this point? Yeah. And I mean, that was the complete pattern, that lack of trust, and even more so in systems, like you mentioned earlier, you know, lack of trust in law enforcement and child protective services, lack of trust in healthcare, you know, because of

19:13
the prescribing of the medication because I couldn't get treatment, I couldn't get help, and you know, another system, the criminal justice system. Because one pill, five plus years, different convictions, when I'm sure that you've seen news or papers or whatever from other jurisdictions in which people get a slap on the wrist. Yeah.

19:42
So that, I mean, that was really these, these resentments and distrust for these systems and people. I mean, you hit it like the nail run on the head. So while I was in prison, I'd asked for help. I mean, again, we helped me with my substance use disorder and I got put on a waiting list. The whole time I was in there, I never got into a program. It seems absurd that someone that

20:12
wants it, that you don't get priority over someone that's being forced to do it. Yeah, it was really something. I did get out on parole. So I got out on parole a little after a year later, because the judge ran my two five-year sentences together. But I got paroled to a Department of Corrections halfway house. So it was, you know.

20:41
Definitely not as bad as prison, a little more freedom, but you're still under Department of Corrections. You know, you have a parole officer there, you, you know, all of these stipulations. And at that halfway house, there was a recovery program. So finally, you know, like finally there was something. Cause what, is this like a 10 years from the time that you started experimenting or more? Yeah, more than 10 years. Yeah, and finally, there's an opportunity.

21:11
I don't know, you haven't got to the point if you took it or not, but there was finally an opportunity for you. I could almost see someone being like, well, now it's too late. Leave me alone. Well that was, I mean, that was something. Like, I was really mad and it took me a while, you know, I relapsed there. So I was just overwhelmed. I was almost four hours away from my family. Like I said, they didn't have the money to come visit me.

21:38
I never got a visit the whole time I was in prison. Like I hadn't seen anyone. You know, I'd wanted to go home. And so I'd relapse and thank goodness, I got to go back there and I gave it a try. You know, when these women who were just like me, who had been formerly incarcerated, who used drugs, were now in recovery.

22:04
And somehow, and it was so hard, like you said, because of my trust issues, but somehow I began to trust them. And like they, all these other systems have failed me, I felt, and all these other people, and here was these people saving my life that most of society really would just throw away because they had done things. And so they saved my life. So I...

22:32
ended up in recovery. My recovery birthday is July the first, 2011. So I finished that program, ended up relocating there for a few years and went back to college. But all of that was so hard. Nobody would rent to me because I had a criminal conviction. I couldn't find steady employment because I had a criminal conviction.

23:01
I mean, financially, it was so hard because I owed all these fines and fees from being incarcerated. And then you have to pay to be on parole. You have to pay to be on parole? Yeah, you have to pay. Absolutely. Wow. Well, let me before you jump into the kind of where you're taking us down the story, I think there's something to be said about building that trust with the people. And I think, you know, not to minimize that and compare it to the.

23:29
my goal with the podcast is these were people that understood you. These were people that have walked in similar shoes. These are people that have been thrown away by every system that threw you away. In a way, these are people that probably hadn't been able to see their families. In a small way, it makes more sense that you were able to trust them over anyone else really in the world.

23:59
There's something to be said that when we can see ourselves and someone else and we can see that these people are making their way, maybe they're only three months into it, but they're three months farther than we are. And so I think there's something to be said about that and how we can build community even in these desperate or dire times like you're explaining, it's a light. I see that part of your story definitely as a light that like

24:28
everyone else screwed you over, but now these ladies understand you. And they know that it's hard. And they know that you can't afford to do this and you can't afford to do that. No one else wants to help, but they want to because they've been there. Yeah. I mean, they saved my life in that recovery center, the women in prison with me, they saved my life there. You're 100% right. That's really...

24:56
So odd, those places is where I learned to trust people. But like you said, there were people just like me who had been through things and I saw myself. You know, I think so many times I think we grow up and maybe it's different in your small town, but a lot of us grow up and we see these things on television and it's like all these extremes that we idolize in some way or we think that that could be us and it's...

25:21
It's the people that are around us. It's the people that understand us that we should be looking to. And sure, they probably had some bad backgrounds, right? They got unfortunate circumstances and got themselves in some trouble, but they're just human. We all make mistakes. We all choose different routes that maybe don't bring us down the roads that we want. But I love that part of your story. I know that you're taking us farther down the road, but I think that's important to see that...

25:52
These people, these average people, changed your life in that way. You could have met, you could have been put in some, drive you down the road on a bus and put in with a bunch of jerks that are only textbook understanding, and you wouldn't have trusted them and maybe wouldn't be on this particular journey. I mean, I think you're 100% correct. And even, as I began that reentry phase and...

26:20
You know, all of these other systems, it was hard to get a job, hard to... The thing that was consistent was that support group. Those women from prison, because a lot of the women I was in prison with went to that same recovery center. So those women, you know, supporting me or if they found out about a job lead or they would give me a ride because I didn't have the money to buy a car, you know, they just held me up. Family. They, absolutely, to this day.

26:49
So eventually I did get some opportunities, people that believe in second chances and recovery. I did get to go to college, you know, that was really hard. I had to write all these essays, like, please let me go. I promise I won't, you know. So I started college for social work. And then eventually I got to go work at that halfway house, that recovery program that I talked about. And I eventually began, became the director.

27:18
of that place, the first women with a felony conviction to do that, the biggest women's center in the state of Kentucky. And I, you know, I loved it. And we're getting to that like real big moment for me because I loved it. And then the same breath, it was the most heartbreaking thing I ever did. What was the heartbreaking part? Because I would meet these women.

27:46
these amazing women who had overcame things that, I mean, these obstacles that were overwhelming. And I would meet them and I would just grow to love them and they would finish the program. And I told them, you know, if you do the right thing, like we can find you a place to live and maybe you can get your kids back, you know, or maybe you can get to see them or we can get you an employment. And those things didn't happen. And then,

28:16
often they would overdose and they would be gone. And it was heartbreaking. And I would talk to parents often who had lost, you know, their daughter. It was just, it was heartbreaking. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are so many success stories, but those stories too, I was like these systems, you know, these policies like, oh. And you feel kind of helpless. It's like you help them.

28:44
through this journey, you get them to a place that you feel like, okay, you can be self-sustaining, but the world is not prepared to help or not willing to help. It's like a constant battle. Part of me was thinking as you were talking about your own battles to get back to where you are allowed to function in society, they permitted you to do this. It's like part of me is like, if only

29:13
this conviction, you could actually tell them it was one pill. You know, it's like people automatically assume that some kind of felony conviction is like. Not one pill. Because I think if most people knew that, they'd be like, what? You know, like we understand that you had an addiction problem. We understand that you maybe weren't functioning in society the way that you wanted to or other people wanted you to.

29:43
but also one pill. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And it's unfortunately, unfortunate that so many people don't get to say that, because often you'll have a job application or a rental application. It's a checkbox. That's it. And that's it. You're done. You're disposed of. That's all you are. That's all, you know, and that's rough. And then if you lie on it, you get in trouble. Absolutely.

30:11
And you know, by that point, yeah, I was not going to lie because I just wouldn't in any kind of mood to go back to prison, you know. So I was working at that recovery center and like I said, it was heartbreaking. It was really fulfilling. But this pivotal moment happened in my life that truly changed the trajectory of like what I was going to do with myself the way I saw the world.

30:40
I had talked to this father, which like I said, like often I talk to family members, things of that nature. They really would look to me and, you know, ask a lot of questions. I tried to help them as much as possible, but I'd talked to him and he had had a 19 year old daughter who had died in a county jail detoxing. She was detoxing off of drugs and.

31:09
The correctional officers chose not to give her aid. She kept asking. And I guess they thought it wasn't, you know, a big problem. I'm not trying to say that they did on purpose, you know, but unfortunately the stigma that exists, you know, we've all been fed that stigma. So, yeah. And, you know, he was just talking to me and her name was my youngest niece's name.

31:39
I don't want to say her name, but who is like my baby. You know what I mean? Like when I went to prison the night before because I turned myself in, we like watched Harry Potter and like I held her because I knew I wouldn't see her.

32:00
So his daughter, it was the same name. And this man, he broke my heart. And I told him, he said, Amanda, I wish somebody could do something. Like she didn't have to die that way. Like I know she did things, but she needed help. And I agreed, you know, and I said, I agree. You know, I truly believe these systems. Like I said, you know, these systems.

32:25
like there has to be change, like we're just letting so many people down and fall through the cracks. And I said, but I can't do it. You know, I could never do anything like that. You know, I have these felony convictions, you know, and he's like, I know, he's like, I just wish. He's like, cause you're so passionate about it. And that night I went home and I prayed. I prayed for this man for comfort, you know, cause he had just broke my heart.

32:55
And the next day I thought about him a little bit, but then it kind of dissipated. You know, I got all involved in day-to-day work. And then I got this email and there was a job description. And on that job description, it talked about changing systems, changing policies around the criminal justice system and substance use and mental health and all of these things. And I was reading it, I was like, oh wow.

33:24
And then it got to a part, you know, I was like, this is so cool. Like somebody, you know, who isn't me that doesn't have a record should do this. I was thinking about people I could send it to. And near the bottom, there was a part that had never seen anywhere else that said, if you have personal experience with a criminal justice system, you are strongly encouraged to apply. I had never.

33:51
Like you said, all I'd seen was those boxes and those, you know, all those barriers. And like, I just felt this wave over me. Like, this is what you're supposed to do. Like, this is, like, this is what you're supposed to do. I could just feel like that man on my heart and I felt like comfort. So I applied. And...

34:16
with little to no experience. I couldn't even vote, you know, I had a felony conviction. But, and I got the job. Wow. It's almost like that email was like, Amanda, you need to apply to this. Was it just like a random email or did someone forward it to you or? My boss forwarded it to me and said, if you know of anybody. And later she told me, she's like, I hate to lose you, but I knew that anybody was you.

34:46
Yeah. And so that like an email changed like the trajectory of what you were doing. Because you were. I mean, let's not minimize all the things that you had done for yourself. You know, you. Faced. Unjust consequences, I would say you went through that whole thing. You came out, you had to live in this halfway house, and then you chose to recover. You chose to go through that recovery journey.

35:16
Then you chose to emerge into society that didn't want you, in a way, you know, that put up every wall to prevent you from doing things. You went to college. Then you became, then you went back to serve the place that helped you, I mean, there are a lot of life shifts in your life, I feel, but it sounds like all those things you were doing to heal yourself.

35:42
and then you were kind of at a point, or this email was the point in which now you were healed enough to now help others in a way that can serve them. So where did that bring you when you got that job? Yeah, and I mean, I believe too that night that I prayed for him for comfort, like the next day that email, it was kind of like the universe saying, you go...

36:10
work to comfort people, you know, like you go. But yeah, so I applied for that job. I got it. I started working at an advocacy organization and I got to work on systemic issues in the state of Kentucky. I became something called a policy analysis. I got to help write bills. I got to advocate to try to get those passed. I was able to start.

36:38
a co-found organization with my colleague called the Kentucky Smart Justice Advocates. It was a group of folks who have been formerly incarcerated, a group of folks that were in recovery from substance use, that got to learn how to advocate for these policies, that got to push them with me. And in the four years that I did that, we passed over a dozen bills. You know, we got to pass a bill, worked to pass a bill with them.

37:08
folks from the state of Kentucky that made receiving a medicated assisted treatment easier, which would save thousands of lives. You know, like I got to work on that system. I got to work on bills and fight against bad bills that dealt with child protective services and push for good ones. I got to work on policing bills. Again, I got to work on...

37:37
expungement to help people get their criminal convictions off of their record so they can get housing and employment. So those systems, those systems that I had failed you, all of them, can you believe that? All of them, I have been able to move in some way, even if it, you know, obviously it isn't this huge, that's going to take a long time. But the way that that

38:05
made me feel and doing it surrounded by people who other people that these systems have let down like the sense of purpose and community and you know I remember working on some of those mental health bills and just thinking oh my god I wish this would existed for my mom you know it's that day that that moment.

38:34
like has changed the world for me. You know, I no longer have to feel like, you know, so alone or helpless, like you mentioned earlier, like I'm able to fight and to advocate and get- And move things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, push things down the line and all the things that the younger version of you wished that could change.

39:04
from small town thinking, well, I have no control. I can't do anything. I just have to live within these bounds and screw it. I can't. There's too much going on. My life is very complicated and no one wants to help. So I'm going to choose my own route. It all makes sense. If you look back, if you start at this moment and how you were able to do that and look back, everything has

39:34
Like, I'm thinking of like where people do like the strings. I feel like everything connects to current day and old version of you. And all the things that you unfortunately had to learn. In your life experience. Are now being used for good, like all those bad things that you experience are you're you found a way to be like, this sucks. Let me make it better for someone else like.

40:04
I mean, I can't talk about, it's just amazing to see someone that's like actually living a purpose, right? Like it must feel very weird. Does it feel like odd? It feels so weird. Like when I take a moment, like you just described and try to see it, it feels like overwhelming. And then I get this like overwhelming amount of gratitude, you know, as opposed to.

40:32
being so mad at the things that have happened, like I said, this gratitude that I can do things that maybe make lives better. It's wild when you work in policy because it affects thousands, sometimes millions of people. And it has a trickle effect, right? I would imagine that even if you're saying, okay, well, it's just Kentucky right now, but this is a movement.

41:00
it's like a wave, you know, and perhaps it's going to pull in more. I can imagine that hopefully. Yeah. And that's exactly what I do now. After working at that organization for four years, I came to work at a national organization called dream.org. And that's what I do is work on criminal justice issues. I'm the director of the justice division. So I get to work in states around the nation.

41:30
and I get to help empower directly impacted people and allies from those states. I get to ask them, what do you want to change? What do you see in your state that you want to make different? And then like, give them all the knowledge I have. You know, I've been doing this for years and I've had amazing mentors and so many attorneys has, I mean, some of the best attorneys literally in the world have taught me things and I get to pour into them.

41:59
And this is something different. National organizations don't always do it that way. And this year we worked in nine states. And those individuals have got bills passed in five states already. I mean, and to see that. And when did you start this journey? Two years ago. I came. Okay, so it's pretty new? It's pretty new. And it, yeah, and it has been like the joy of my life so far. It's been hard. It's been a learning curve, of course.

42:26
as it should be. Yeah, yeah. And I get to work on the federal level too. So it's really something, really something. Well, and it's fun. It's always interesting to think, imagine if that second grader who got upset seeing the newspaper on your teacher's desk and all the systems just screwing up your life and just...

42:52
messing things up. Imagine if she could see what you're doing now. It's probably out of the realm of possibility, right? Never. Yeah. Would you imagine? I mean, that little girl was filled with so much shame and fear and confusion. You know, and yeah, I could have never imagined. Never imagine. You know, and that's what's so important that to me personally that I try to be transparent.

43:22
and tell parts about myself and all of them I'm definitely not proud of, you know, but they are parts of me because I want to own that narrative. It's my narrative, it's my story. Like a newspaper can't own it or if you pull up a website on Department of Corrections, they can't own it. Like I want to tell it. Like it's my story, it's my narrative. And that little girl, she could have, she could have never, you know, she was just...

43:50
drowning in shame. Do you remember that little girl ever dreaming about the future? Yeah, I remember, you know, I wanted to be a marine biologist. I feel like, you know, like there's something like there's got to be like 75, 80 percent of kids that want to be a marine biologist. But yeah, I wanted to be a marine biologist. I wanted to go to college. You know, nobody in my family had ever went. I'm a first generation, you know.

44:20
But there are so many things that I wanted to buy a house. You know, we never owned a house. We always lived in low-income housing or a trailer park or wherever we could live. There's so much that I dreamed about. And now your dreams are probably, I mean, what you accomplished is probably even bigger than what you could have imagined as a kid, because those were like big dreams for a small town.

44:50
Right? Big dreams for the situations you were in, but also very similar to the expectations of other people in maybe bigger towns. You know? Not to sound insulting, because that's not what I mean. But I feel like in a small town in those circumstances, your dreams can only be so big. Right? Or I don't know if they can only be, but that's how we feel about them. Like, I can't dream for...

45:19
I don't want to be an astronaut, you know, because that'll never happen. But I can dream to be a to go to college and to buy a house and those kind of things. And I think a lot of us just have the societal feeling that that we're just owed those things. Like, that's just going to happen. Right. And now you're like literally changing lives, future lives that don't even exist yet by what you're doing.

45:45
That's, yeah, that's not when you say it that way. You are. People might not even be born and the things that you're doing now are affecting their lives in a positive way. Because they're, I mean, let's be real. People are not, they're still going to be addiction. They're still going to be issues. They're still going to be domestic violence. Unfortunately, they're still going to be sexual assaults. Unfortunately, they're still going to be these things. But the things that you're changing and the waves that you're making might help those people if...

46:14
they encounter those circumstances in the future. Yeah, and that's what it's all about. I hope, I hope it does. Yeah, did you see that, this is interesting for me, I'm wondering if when you were doing like that analyst analysis type role, did you see systemically why things were a certain way? Like did it, in a way that it was like, oh, well I can see why this is the way it is.

46:41
Not that it doesn't need to change, but I can kind of see how we got here. Absolutely, especially when it comes to criminal justice issues, things of that nature, even substance use. You know, when I would look at statutes, you know, look at the law and look at bills and when those were written, you know, I'd be able to see, you know, this is during the 80s. Like this is during, you know, the time of crack and how we disproportionately...

47:10
incarcerated black folks and when they took out, when they changed juvenile justice, this is when words like super predator were being thrown around against kids or I could see that fear, that systemic, the systemic gender biases, racial biases, even like LGBTQ stuff, like that.

47:39
you know, there was even enhanced sentences that would primarily impact that community. And I just saw it. And so, like the way I advocate and the people around me advocate, we don't advocate out of that fear. We try to be level-headed. We try to do it out of love. Like I said, we really like try to build the biggest coalition and bring likely allies together.

48:08
to try to change these things. But absolutely, you can see where, just looking at the dates and then going back in history, you can see where they came from. What do you think the biggest difference of you now compared to the day before, like when you were talking to that man about his daughter, what's the biggest difference between who you are now and who you were then? Because you were doing great things then too. Just...

48:37
feeling like change on that larger level is possible. You know, then I thought, you know, the women I care about are continue, are gonna continue to not have these resources, are gonna continue to overdose, are gonna continue this because of these systems, which I was mad at, but at the time had no idea how to change. Just didn't even know it was possible. Didn't even know it could be a thing.

49:06
truly didn't even know what advocacy was. So that's the biggest.

49:12
that one person can make a difference. That hope, that bigger, this giant hope. Yeah, well, because at the time you even said it, you were like, you know, I can't do that. I can't, there are limitations on me. I'm just one person, you even told him that you couldn't do these things. And now it's like, heck yeah, I can, watch me, you know? And then, and I'm sure there's probably like this, this confidence snowball of some sort when you first got something passed.

49:42
or you got some kind of law change, you're like, well, if I did that, I can do this, or I can make this happen. Is that, does that happen to you? Oh yeah, the first bill that was signed in the law in Kentucky, it was an expungement bill, again, to erase records for folks with low level offenses. And the governor, I was at the bill signing, and the governor,

50:11
signed the bill and handed it to a legislator who had sponsored it. And the legislator handed it to me and said, you deserve this. This first signed copy. And I just cried because I thought, oh my God, the amount of people that this will help to move past the worst thing they've ever done. That they won't just be that box. That they can...

50:39
really thrive and provide for their family and have these opportunities. It was nuts. It was nuts. It was nuts that this bill was good. It was just like nothing you could have ever imagined. No, no, because of all the things you had gone through. It's always so fascinating to me, like how

51:00
how our life unfolds.

51:04
You know, and this is hard question to always ask and it's hard for me to think of in my own experience, but I often look back at losing my mom at such a young age and struggling for so long through that grief period. At this point in my life, I wouldn't go back and change things. Is there a part of you that's like, looking back and going, this all sucked, but maybe there was a bigger purpose here?

51:34
Absolutely. That's what I truly believe and I don't think that I would go back and change it either. Which is so hard to say, right? It's so hard and it makes your stomach kind of twist. It all sucked. Yeah. Yeah, but I think so many unfortunate things, so many things that society

52:03
let you down with, you know, and I'm sure you played a part in that journey as well. But I look at your story now and you telling me what you're doing now, I feel like you're that much more effective now because you know firsthand how all of that that feels and works and advocating for people that have that are in situations that you were in, you know, and that I think that.

52:31
probably makes you more effective in a really screwed up way, you know? Like in a way that like, oh, that doesn't feel good to say, but you're probably better because of it. Yeah. I mean, I agree, especially in the kind of work that I do, this policy change, because it's really hard to get a bill passed. It's really hard to change a law. So I've seen people that maybe couldn't get it done the first year and just move on to something else. Like someone who has been

53:02
through it, like, no, like we're not moving. Yeah, we're not gonna forget the people that are affected by this, people we left behind, the people that are us, like we just, I just can't give up that passion. In a way you're healing a lot of those things that font you. You know, I like to kind of bring these conversations to a close with a question. If you could go back to Amanda.

53:31
who was trying to find a way to numb herself for all the things that she was experiencing with her mom, with your assault, with all the things that you were facing. You were just looking for a way out. Is there anything that you could say to her that would help her on this journey? Yeah, these are not, these things are not who you are. They are not the measure.

54:00
of the person you are, there are things that happen to you. And you are so much bigger than them. And like hold on in there, because one day, maybe you can help people that go through the same situation. Maybe you can even prevent it. Like just hold on. Life's beautiful, like stay here, stick it out, and it'll get better. It's really hard to, you know, when you're in that moment,

54:30
to even feel any kind of hope, you know? And your hope was that everything, you could drown out at the time. And now you're like, bring it on. Like, let's go. You know, Kentucky's not big enough. Let's do all the states or let's, you know, as big as we can go because I don't want other kids, people, adults, anyone, you know, whatever you are.

55:00
And however you feel, I don't want people to feel like that. If really it's more a society's issue that you're put in these circumstances, you know? Even if you had been caught with that one pill, but there was more leniency in that because of X, Y, and Z. And then you didn't, you weren't forced to check those boxes. Imagine the different forks that your life would have taken, you know?

55:28
who knows, you maybe would have been that marine biologist, but then maybe wouldn't be serving the people in this way. So, you know, I truly do believe my own tragedies inform who I am and what I do now. And I'm weirdly thankful for them. And it sounds like you're kind of in that very similar space. So thank you for sharing this story. I think it's really impactful. And I'm super honored that you shared it with me and that now I get to know you.

55:56
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm glad I survived the excitement and the nervousness. So super happy about that. And for those of you listening, we also threw in a couple tech issues. So hopefully, by the time you get to the end of this episode, you didn't even notice. But you know, that's just life. And we roll with it and we share our story in hopes that someone listening, here's Amanda's story. Here's something that you said, maybe it's not even like the most pivotal part. Maybe it's just like

56:24
something that you said about your experience and it hits them in the right way and they feel compelled to move on in their journey or to move to a different part of their journey or maybe reach out to you. Is there a good way to connect with you, find out more about what you're doing in your organization? Like what's the, do you want people to reach out to you? How does that go for you? Absolutely. Visit the dream.org webpage. Visit.

56:53
Just click on Justice there and you can sign up to be part of our Empathy Network, which are folks from around the country who want to work on the issues that I just mentioned, who want to come together and find common ground and fight to make a better place. So absolutely you're welcome to join. Come and do this with us. We need all the help we can get.

57:20
We'll include all that information in the show notes so people can easily access that and you. And, you know, just thank you for being a part of this journey for me. I didn't know that every story that I get to hear would heal some part of me and part of my journey. So thank you for just being a part of that puzzle and helping, you know, heal this 42-year-old person over here on the other side of the mic. Thank you. Thank you. And if...

57:50
You are listening and you're enjoying these episodes. I'd love it if you would share one of your favorite episodes, if this episode really impacted you in a particular way, if you could share this with a friend that you think might need to hear it. I know Amanda would appreciate that. I would certainly appreciate that. And with that, I'll say goodbye until next week when we have a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Amanda. Thank you.

58:24
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com