A Psychedelic Path from Finance to Inner Discovery | James Eshleman

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It felt like my goal was further and further away. At some point, I sort of had a breakdown, a mental breakdown. I was severely depressed and disconnected from any real meaningful community. So I moved to Denver and that's where I started working for a financial technology startup here in Denver. I thought it was the perfect marriage of all the things that I've kind of wanted to be a part of. And I got into the job and it wasn't.

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what I thought it was going to be. And it was hard and tedious and boring. I didn't feel challenged and I found my mind wandering. You know, my imagination started running and I started to have all of these really interesting ideas. And at the same time, I ended up meeting who would the man who would become my teacher. And as I one day when I was sitting at my desk, I actually remember the day was January 31st, 2017, the last day of the month.

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And I stood up at my desk and thinking that I was going to walk into my manager's office and give them a two weeks notice and get into her office. And she says, okay, security is going to escort you out of the building in the next five minutes. Go get your things. Today's guest is James Eshelman. James is a Denver based psychedelic guide and an advocate whose journey from a finance professional to a transformative guide in the evolving field of psychedelic therapy is quite interesting.

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James' story serves as a powerful reminder that sometimes the emergency break holding us back is of our own making. The moment we choose to release it, we can propel forward on a path that's most authentic to us. In this episode, James takes us back to his roots in a small Illinois town where he was really groomed to take over his family's manufacturing business. We discuss the weight of expectations, societal constraints, and really the courage that it took for James to embark on a journey of self-discovery.

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He also discusses the revelation when he found himself in a job that just didn't challenge or excite him. This marked a significant shift in his life. It led him to the world of psychedelics, a field that's really often misunderstood and stigmatized. Yet it was here that he found his true calling, guiding individuals through transformative psychedelic experiences. He also became an advocate for the legalization and regulated use of psychedelics in Colorado. This episode is a powerful exploration of acceptance and

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self-belief, and really the courage to break free from those societal expectations. We should trust our instincts, and perhaps pursue paths that seem uncertain but really might align with our authentic selves. Before I get into today's episode, I just want to thank Tracy and Emily for sponsoring two episodes every month for the LifeShift Podcast on the Patreon feed. So thank you both for supporting me, believing in this idea.

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and helping to cover some of the costs of production and hosting and all those things that come along with it. If you're listening now and you'd like to directly support the show, I would love to have you as part of the Patreon. You can head to patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast, and you can find all that information there. And without further ado, here is my conversation with James Eshelman. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:34
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Lifeshift Podcast. I am here joined by James. Hey, James. Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me. Thank you for wanting to be a part of this journey for anyone listening and for you. I started this podcast as a class assignment and I was doing just like a bonus master's degree and took a podcasting class and I was like, okay, what am I going to do this about? And then I realized that

03:59
my life has been dictated by a major life shift when I was eight, my mom was killed in an accident. And I felt that from one day to the next, my life was completely different. And growing up, I was just like so curious, do other people have these moments in their lives in which like everything's different the next day or the next week or whatever that may be? And selfishly, I've always been curious about people's trauma because, you know, that's my own, but.

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then we have people like you and so many other people that I've had the opportunity to talk to that have had this like internal fire. And so I'm super curious to hear about your story today. So thank you for being a part of this and fulfilling this journey that I'm on. Yeah, this is such a fascinating and awesome topic and I'm really excited to share my story. Yeah, your story is, I think...

04:51
parts of your story, I should say. I know a little bit about your story, and for anyone listening, I don't do a lot of research, but I know a little bit about your story, and I think the beginning stages of your story is so relatable for so many. I think there's a lot of us that have been in that state that caused your change, and then what you did with it, I think there's a lot of people that have done that, but then a lot of people might be curious about how you did that, and so I know that your story is definitely gonna resonate with people. Before we get into it, though, maybe you can just like.

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Tell us who you are now in today's 2024. Like, who is James?

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I'm a complex person, you know, to begin with. I'm very sensitive to emotions, my emotions, the emotions of the world, and to the times that we live in. And I think what that's given me is a great gift. That's also sort of something that I've had to learn to home over the last few years. And the work that I do is both supportive of that, and it's also...

05:58
helping to shape that in a way that both serves me and serves other people. So professionally, I am a psychedelic guide in Denver, Colorado, and I lead people through preparation, the facilitated experience and integration of their psychedelic experience in a structured format that helps them kind of shift their life, actually. So if we were talking to a lot of my clients, a lot of my clients would, you know.

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probably say that their experiences were the life shift, where one thing is different today than the day before. I also am a psychedelic advocate. There's a lot happening in the psychedelic space here in the state of Colorado. I've been working with the regulatory agencies here in Denver, broadly Colorado, to help

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psilocybin facilitation, essentially. So creating the training programs and the curriculum and the licensure model itself. And then on top of that, I also do a lot of men's work. So I work with men to help create community and support men and also give men a chance to step into their lives in meaningful ways. So all of the kind of common threads and.

07:25
in my life lead to the supportive individual and collective transformation in the world. Wow. That's a lot. That's a lot in so many ways, in the way of just a lot to do. But even beyond that, it's like that's a lot of, I don't know, that's a lot in here that you have to hold. And I like that you said you work to create the system so that you can hone in that because

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situation that we call the LifeShift podcast, having these conversations, I've even realized that I can only do so many of these conversations every week because naturally, if you're in tune with the people that you're talking to and connected with, like you are in your spaces, I can imagine how much of that you might take on if you didn't know how to protect that space but still hold the space. I'm sure part of your journey had some of that.

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where it was maybe overwhelming? I mean, it's a constant practice. I mean, you really highlighted a very real thing for me that my own human experience is unfolding at the same time as the human experiences of the people that I'm supporting. And so there's a lot of decompressing, a lot of time that I spend in contemplation and with myself and in a peaceful solitude to bring myself back to...

08:52
my center so that I can continue giving. You can't pour from an empty cup. It's hard. I think, as I guess we'll use the word empath, you pull in so many of these experiences and then we keep them as our own. And unless you have the tools that you probably help other people with to be able to one, share those things, but also let go of some things that aren't theirs for them to hold.

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It's a journey and I'm guessing, and I think I kinda know a little bit that your life wasn't always this way. You weren't always kind of centered in this necessarily in this space, is that correct? Maybe you can kind of paint the picture what brought you to this version of James because I think we're curious, like how does one get to be like you are now? Well, it's an interesting story.

09:49
for me, just to even reflect back on, as I sort of feel into the gifts and the essential part of myself, that part of me hasn't changed. That's always been there. Getting into this work has allowed me to bring more of that out. And the thread, you know, going back to my childhood, I was raised in a small farm town, 15,000 people in Illinois.

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and it was a manufacturing hub in a lot of ways. And so there were a lot of blue collar people. The community was tight. I could walk down the street to my aunt's house and most of my friends lived in walking distance and we would ride our bikes clear across town. And my father, my family owned a manufacturing business in a small town. And...

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It was sort of antiquated, honestly. It's one of the industries that was sort of taken over when globalization became a thing in the 2000s. But I was always kind of anticipating that I would take over that family business. So I paid close attention to what my father was doing and his perspective. And when you're a young kid, you look up to your parents and you want to be...

11:13
just like them in a lot of ways. And that was me really looking up to my father. And I used to get so many compliments from family members and people in the community that I was a lot like him, which I really relished and enjoyed hearing that, because I was eventually going to step into his shoes. So I began to take on this persona of somebody who looked like him, talked like him, walked like him, thought like him, and believed.

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like him. And so when I got into college, I went to the University of Tampa and I studied finance. I wanted to get a good background in finance. And by that time, the business had gone bankrupt due to globalization. But I still had that belief system. And so I started looking at, well, what are the intrinsic gifts that I have and what can I bring to the world?

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And I settled onto finance because I wanted to be a stock picker. I realized that I had this ability to see that I had this vision, this this ability to see what was going to be cool and interesting and what was going to be adopted in the future and could be used to, you know, provide meaning and value to people's lives. And so I built up, you know, this this idea of myself as as venture capitalist or would be venture capitalist, would be investment banker.

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And so when I graduated from college, I took my first job. And that's kind of where my professional career got started. Did you, I have a question and you know, you kind of were like alluding to it, but maybe I'm reading into it in my own experiences is like you talk about, you knew you were going to like take over the family business and you kind of started emulating and becoming the smaller version of your father. Was that something that you did

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because you felt like you had to, or do you think you really, like, this was your passion, you wanted to do that? And this is kind of like my own trauma probably. It's a great question, because I think, you know, it happens ever so subtly in a lot of ways, right? And when you're a kid, you don't think about, like, it's hard, at least it was hard for me to think about what I wanted.

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You know, my world was so small at that time, I didn't know what was outside of it. And so naturally I gravitated towards something that was meaningful and what was meaningful to me was that my father, right, I think really appreciated responsibility and duty and expectations. And so as I became more and more like him, though I think those expectations got heavier and heavier and I sort of,

14:08
There's just a separation of the unique sense of self when those expectations are so heavy. And I also just didn't, at that age, know what you want to do. And so you just kind of go with what's available, right? But yeah, so it was heavily expectations. Well, part of me also thinks, listening to you talk about how heart-centered and how that was always a part of you, a sensitive piece.

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is like, are we doing the things, and I know I did, are we doing the things so that we get the love, we earn the love, we earn the respect from people. Like in my own circumstance, this was something I made up in my head, I'm convinced of, but like when my mom died as an eight-year-old, to me, to an eight-year-old brain, I think that's abandonment in some way. And so I always felt that I had to make sure that my dad was happy or proud of me so that he also wouldn't leave.

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And so like, I'm not trying to connect these two things, but also think like, do we do the things for our parents because we want them to love us more or continue to love us? Or are we really like, I don't know, maybe I'm having this little crazy crisis right now, but you know, it's curious to me that that heart centered version of you is always there. So just curious if that was what drove you. Yeah. I mean, you're touching on something real right here. And

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And I think the sensitive, this big hearted, sensitive side of me, you know, I recognized in my dad, my dad kind of always had a sensitive, you know, heart side to him, but I wasn't really able to connect with it unless there was some form of, you know, mirroring or accomplishment, right? Or if I was fulfilling the expectations, if I was becoming...

16:02
you know, some smaller version of him, at least that's what I felt. And, and hyper sensitive, I was hyper sensitive to rejection, you know. I wanted so badly to belong, but I really cut against the grain of, you know, the family, the family dynamic, you know, if I look back on my life over the last seven years, and really beyond that too, there's, there's an aspect, an element of being the black sheep, of cutting against the grain, and so...

16:30
I think I felt that at a young age and really just wanted to belong. And within sort of mother-father dynamics, if you really boil it down to its essence, I view the mother as the model for love. And so that's where we learn what love is. And when it comes down to the father, the father is the model for acceptance. That's where we learn what acceptance is. And so I realized that I got acceptance from him when I did what he wanted me to do rather than what I wanted to do. You know?

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I don't think it's uncommon. I think that's kind of just a natural thing is this like sense of approval and the rejection is really hard. And sometimes it's really hard to find and navigate until we become adults, like what we really wanna do. And even if our parents don't think we should do it, we still feel strong enough in our own sense that we can move through that. And it sounds like you kind of carved, you were kind of almost like.

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the universe, even though globalization and all these things that destroyed this family business, it also opened doors for you to go in a different direction, whether that's what you wanted to or not. Do you see it that way, or do you feel like finance was just something because you couldn't do the other? I mean, there's a lot of dynamics here. I think in a lot of ways, my childhood...

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and the striving to fit a model was the thing that actually became so uncomfortable that I was able to throw it all away and move in a different direction entirely. The weight of those expectations was a gift as difficult as it's been to break them. Yeah. That came while you were in your finance career? How did this breaking of the...

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the egg, if you will, and kind of hatching in this way. How did that happen? I started working for an uncle's hedge fund straight out of college and was doing really just grunt work and wanted to be more involved in the investment side of things. And so I moved out to San Francisco and that's where I started working at Wells Fargo. And I was on, we were on the 32nd floor of the Wells Fargo building overlooking

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the Ferry building in San Francisco Bay. It was beautiful and such an awesome place to live in some ways and maybe not so in others. But to me, it felt like the, it's the venture capital hub of the world and same with startups too, right? So I'm like in this place where I'm like, of course I'm going to find the right opportunity here.

19:19
go to a party and meet the right person and find my way into an organization that's doing something really cool and valuable, and then I can bring my gift to the world. So that's what I tried to do. And it felt like every step of the way I was meeting resistance, the harder and harder that I tried to network, and the more and more that I tried to connect with people, it felt like my goal was further and further away. At some point, I sort of had a breakdown, a mental breakdown, I was severely depressed.

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and disconnected from any real meaningful community. So I moved to Denver and that's where I started working for a financial technology startup here in Denver. Thought it was the perfect marriage of all the things that I've kind of wanted to be a part of. And I got into the job and it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And it was hard and tedious and boring. I didn't feel challenged and I found my mind wandering. My imagination started

20:18
running and I started to have all of these really interesting ideas. And at the same time, I ended up meeting who would, the man who would become my teacher. And as I, one day when I was sitting at my desk, I actually remember the day, it was January 31st, 2017, the last day of the month. And I stood up at my desk and thinking that I was going to walk into my manager's office and give them a two weeks notice. And.

20:45
get into her office and she says, okay, security is going to escort you out of the building in the next five minutes, go get your things. And like, it was, it was this perfect, like, moment in a way, because when I stood up from my desk, I felt like I was being moved by something outside of myself, you know, we were drawn forward, there was as if there was this fire that just all of a sudden erupted and it said, like, this is the action that you need to take because there's

21:15
too much that you are willing to give away here. And there's something that is much more fulfilling for you if you decide to take this risk. And so then that conversation with my managers just really cemented it that like, I'm not a human here. I'm just, you know, I am just a robot, just a number filling in a seat. And that was just revelatory for me. Yeah, I mean, it kind of like everything kind of.

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coalesced at the same point to kind of create this new moment for you. This is new for me in this podcasting journey that I have these, like I almost picture things happening, like when someone's describing their story. And so this is what I was picturing while you were telling that story about San Francisco and kind of like fighting resistance. I was picturing you in a car pushing down on the gas pedal, but the emergency brake was on.

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and things where you're like, I'm ready, let's go, let's go, let's go, but something was holding you back in that sense, and it's like when you stood up at that job in Denver and you were like, someone was like, all right, put the emergency breakdown and let's go, and I don't know why, I just like to share it out loud now because maybe it works. Yeah, I mean, it was like immediate, in a lot of ways, it was immediate traction, right? So it was like.

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When you're spinning your wheels and you're trying to create self-belief, it's like you are stepping on the gas and the emergency brake is on. You're burning a lot of reserves, a lot of fuel. And it felt like at that point I was starting to get empty. My tank was just almost empty and I had the last little bit of gas and it was the last little bit of gas that pushed me out the door. And then that choice and taking that action.

23:09
was the thing that allowed me to then refill my cup up. It was like, I believe so much on this thing that is totally unknown for me, that I have no idea what is in here, but I just need to trust this feeling and go with it, that it sprung me to life in a way and set me on this course that unfold over the next seven years. Yeah, it's, I mean, I love that for you. What I kept hearing in your whole journey was,

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so much of this like, I'm just waiting for the moment that I can share this gift that I know I have, this gift that I want to share with other people, not in any kind of grandiose way or any kind of like bragging way, just like I know I need to add value and I keep trying to find the space where I can add value and it just wasn't allowing you. And so I get it, your body was just like.

24:06
I'm done. There's nothing more I can do here. Let's go, you know, let's go do something else. Was it like this combination of like I'm empty, but also like I'm ready, like this weird, like I have a lot, but I have nothing.

24:21
Yeah, it was like it was like jumping to use another startup term it's like jumping off of a cliff and Assembling the airplane on the way down Right is like I know that there's I Just I trusted that I could figure it out on the way down and that was such a powerful lesson for me Did you always have I mean I know you had the confidence well Yeah, I know you said you you knew you had the gift. Did you always have the confidence that you could do it?

24:51
like anything that you were going to do? So ever since I was a kid, I've had this burning feeling inside that I'm meant to do something important. And I don't know to what degree or I didn't know to... It wasn't that I wanted to be famous or that I wanted to become rich. It was just, there was always something there.

25:21
Definitely got dimmer as time went on and these finance jobs. But once I made that decision, it was the affirmation that I can believe in that and trust in that. It's almost kind of nice that your boss didn't be like, well, why? And then try to keep you and try to get you to say, it's almost just like, okay, go live your life. Go do the thing that you're meant to do. What happened February 1st?

25:50
What was the period in which things started to unfold in the way that you kind of wanted them to? Well, I think what really broke me in the finance space was the rugged individualistic perspective. It's a doggy dog world. Everybody's out there for themselves. Everybody wants to provide. And I mean, there's nobility in it too. They wanna provide for their families, but I couldn't feel.

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the people. I couldn't connect to the people there because they were just in this, you know, sort of rat race with their heads down trying to get where they're going without really appreciating the scenery. And so, February 4th, like three or four days later, I guess, was when I sat in my first plant medicine ceremony. And that really opened up my eyes to that medicine work and just gave me a chance to connect to...

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you know, myself and start to heal the trauma that I've been carrying my whole life. And so through that, it was just this sort of peeling back layer by layer, all of the things that were in the way of me really stepping into my life. And there's so much more to that conversation. What was, I mean, for those people that don't really understand, what is a ceremony like that? You say it was your first.

27:17
You know, some of us over in other states don't understand what some of these things are. So maybe you can give us what that ceremony is like. Was it something that you were watching or you were participating in? Yeah. So I was participating in it. And these plant medicine ceremonies utilize psychedelics by and large. And psychedelic, the word psychedelic just breaks down into mind manifesting, but psyche actually

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in the Greek translation is soul. So it's sort of soul manifesting, which is essentially to say that when you step into a plant medicine ceremony, a psychedelic ceremony, the idea is that you come into contact with your soul, or the essential part of you. And through that, you get to heal some of the baggage or the traumas that you've been carrying throughout your life. And so these spaces are very intentional and ceremonial. And

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depending upon the circle that you sit in, it will look different. But intention is kind of the common thread there. It's that people step in and say, I really want to relinquish my need and desire to live an egotistical life and connect to my heart or connect to the deeper story that's emerging in my life. And whenever you influence what you do with an intention.

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being really clear about why you're there and what you're doing. It creates a space that allows for deep, human, therapeutic work to occur. So that's kind of the high-level explanation of that. No, I think it makes sense. It's, you know, you have to move... I would imagine you have to move into that space with that intention. Like you say, it's almost like...

29:10
If I minimize it over here, you think of therapy. Like it doesn't really work until you're ready for it to work or until you want it to work or until you're ready to unpack things. And it seems like in a similar sense, you have to be open, ready to go. I know it might be tough. I know it might be scary. I know it might be great, but let's go. Right, right. Which one was that, that first ceremony? Was it like, because I've heard that it can be really, really

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overwhelming and great, but also really scary and things like that. Did you have any of those feelings after that first one? I mean, through the experience, it really presents a lot. You can go through waves of grief, sadness, sorrow, pain, psychosomatic pain. You can also experience bliss and joy, and it provides such a perspective.

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that challenges so many of our conditioned beliefs and thoughts. After that experience, what I felt was relief and openness. To be frank, I went into that first ceremony thinking, this is going to solve all my problems. This is just going to wipe the slate clean. One and done. I'm going to be good. I won't have anything else to work on. My life is going to open up.

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And I was right in a sense, you know, looking back, but it was, you know, what I got from it was the seed rather than the whole forest. And then I had to learn how to nurture the seed and tend to the seed. And then, you know, the next ceremony was another seed and the next ceremony after that was another seed. And then all of a sudden, you know, you start looking around at the garden of your life and there's...

31:06
There's a lot of greens that are popping up and fruits are starting to emerge. Yeah. Did that space in yourself feel the most home you had ever been? Would you describe that as like you felt the most you because all the other things you were trying to go through the motions or find the next space where you were able to be open in that way?

31:30
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love this question because the thing that I connected to the most was the depth of human vulnerability in those spaces. You know, people are wide open and totally raw and real and honest with themselves and with each other. Which society tells us we should be scared about? Vulnerability. Right. I mean, because it's scary. Yeah, yeah. And it cuts against the grain of the structure.

31:59
Definitely. Yeah, because it is, or we have been told or conditioned in a way that vulnerability might equal weakness when really, I think it's the opposite. Right. I mean, I think vulnerability when held in the heart is incredibly courageous and produces the kind of strength that can move mountains.

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and build families and create community. So it's an essential piece of the human experience and it was something that I was missing. And so over the course of the next two years, I kept going to these ceremonies and eventually the lead facilitator invited me to co-facilitate with him. And it was at that moment when I was invited in to be of service to other people.

32:56
Well, when I really understood what I was here to do, and it was to guide people, to support people, to walk alongside them, to help build and nurture community, and give back, give the part of myself that is fundamental and inherent to me, that I really only suffer when I'm not giving it. And so that space opened up a whole new channel of service.

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to people that, and ultimately to myself as well, that then everything kind of my career built from there.

33:35
I think of that moment of... It's almost like a moment of... that some of us that maybe aren't as... evolved in this space or in ourselves, I guess, might see that moment where someone saw us and they saw our gifts and they saw the ability and the things that we had to contribute to do that. And then some of us, when we hear that, it's like this approval thing from your older version of your life.

34:05
Do you see those as connected as like that was like, someone sees me, finally sees this gift I can give. And therefore that like triggered me to like move into this space. Yeah, it's so poignant. I mean, your questions are just so on point here. When he asked me, when this lead facilitator asked me, I was 26 years old at the time. I was a year and a half or two years removed from corporate America.

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you know, two years into my healing journey. And I said to him, I think verbatim is like, I'm a 26 year old white man from corporate America. Like, what do I have to give to people? And that was the old conditioning, you know, in a way of like, like not believing in what I had, but I needed him to be able to see that, you know, and to invite me in and to say, it's okay if you don't believe in it right now, but it's there.

35:04
and we can help call you out of that. And so I think about how important it is for us to have people in our lives who call us out, or call us in rather. They call us in. They say, I see something in you and I'm gonna trust in that because I can trust in that. And I'm willing to go on the ride with you and help you figure it out along the way because...

35:31
to break apart all these condition, all this conditioning that we have around what we're supposed to do in the world or who we're supposed to be, often requires a lot of pain and discomfort, you know? Even though it's like the purest part of ourselves, we have to like, we have to cut through a lot of pain. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I think, I think so many people just can't because the conditions aren't right.

35:58
I think we tell ourselves it's very scary. We can't do it. We've been conditioned that we can't do it. And therefore, we don't have these opportunities. And so you're right. When someone sees you and they see the things that you are, you're emitting and you're putting out into the world. But maybe you're not doing it. You're not actually doing it. And you're showing some of this self-doubt. And you're showing some of these things. But when someone finally sees it and like, stop. Cut it out. Cut out the naysaying and all these other pieces.

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Like you are here for the right reason. And it's like, then the clouds part and the curtains open and everything's like, okay, I can see it now. Was it like that moment? Like clouds parted and like everything's gonna be good or did you still have a little treacherous journey to go through? You know, to begin, there was definitely a learning curve, but one of the things that I began to lean on was this fundamental curiosity that I've always had.

36:58
and this capacity to just observe and watch. And that observation of watching, you know, the group, how the group was sort of experiencing and how the facilitators were moving in the room and what they were paying attention to and asking, you know, my co-facilitator, like, what are you watching? What are you paying attention to? It was like my curiosity took over and that felt so good to lean into.

37:29
And through that developed just a sense of confidence and trust because it was inherent in me and I just needed somebody to believe in it. So it was pretty in pretty short order where I really started to feel at home in that space where there was no mind. I wasn't thinking, I was just there and present and with people and that's what might be called flow state. I was just in flow state. It didn't feel like work.

37:59
Or did it? Not at all. No. It was like the more that I gave, the more I got back, which ran so contrary to what I was used to in the finance space. I think that was probably the thing that really triggered my awareness of like, I think you found something here because you're not, it's instant traction. I'm moving a mile a minute almost effortlessly. I was so hungry for the work.

38:28
It felt so nourishing on the deeper levels of my being. Yeah, because the older version of you was probably working as hard, if not harder, and just fighting against the wall that the industry had for you, but also probably your own wall that you were like, this isn't really what you want to do. Like, keep fighting until you stop, but you're going to hit a point in which you need to find your real space.

38:56
I think there's a part of probably you were doing that to yourself and kind of putting that resistance in there. Is that something that even connects with you? A hundred percent. I mean, I think that's what I've really come to realize in life is that we, something deep down inside of us puts in front of us a resistance that we have to work through, you know, and whether we continue pressing up against it and trying to fight through it.

39:25
or we surrender and let go and trust it dictates how quickly we move through. And so my notions of what I thought that I was supposed to do in the world was also the obstacle that kept me in it. And so yeah, fighting against myself and my beliefs about what I think I should or shouldn't be doing. I talk to a lot of people about what I've kind of called society's checklist of the things that like

39:55
I'm actually wearing this shirt right now, abandon the checklist life. I did that. I was like, you have to graduate high school, then you have to go to college, then you have to get a job, then you got to get a graduate degree, and then you have to buy a house. And you're like, everything. And you're just chasing. You're just chasing this thing where there's like, they're just things. They're just check marks. They're not really anything that creates, like you're describing this flow state, this like, sure, what we would do.

40:24
determined to be work. I'm working, but I'm not. I'm like in this space, in community, in helping people, in actually helping myself. Because you probably healed so many things just by guiding people and the things that you didn't realize just by seeing how they were approaching whatever they were facing and kind of onions and layers like that. So yeah, that we do, we create the walls for ourselves in a lot of cases, I think.

40:51
Like subconsciously, obviously not on purpose, but. Yeah, no, it depends on what you mean by on purpose, right? Cause like. Fair. But on that level, on the conscious level, we're not consciously doing it, but on the deeper level, you know, on the purpose level, like the purpose level, meaning, you know, if we really peel back all the layers and we get down to the port of us, that is.

41:20
here to do something and give something to the world. That part of us is driving forward, and we're the resistance that's holding it back. And I think it's just, I think this checklist, this checklist removes the adventure of life, the dance. You just move to the next thing. Yeah, it's a roadmap. And I think, as you've probably experienced,

41:47
the magic is in the journey and sort of finding your way and creating trust with yourself and following your heart's desires and connecting to whatever is meaningful for you. And we can often find that in the checklist or sometimes find that in the checklist, but it doesn't land in the same way. I agree. I also just think, I think it's generational as well because our parents probably absorb something from their parents.

42:17
this epigenetic kind of idea of like just our DNA is like infiltrated with these things. And then everything we see around us puts us on this path naturally. You know, like going doing what you do is considered, if we look at the grand scheme of things like against the grain, like you're not doing what life has told you to do. Like this is not how you find success. But it is because success is whatever we determine it to be. But also like, shouldn't the goal be like that we enjoy all the time that we're here and not just like

42:46
fight to the death of making the most money and being the best person in the business, you know? I think so. It's just like so refreshing to see that you found this space and created this life for yourself, especially the dichotomy that I feel, and maybe you don't see it as much, but the dichotomy between this life that you have and like this small town, blue collar upbringing in which it probably was very...

43:12
I don't know, siloed in a way of like vertical structures of the things that you had to fall into. Yeah. I mean, I definitely broke the mold, you know. It wasn't until recently. In a good way though. I'm still trying to understand it. You know, I'm still trying to understand what all is here. I know that what I've been doing has been an iteration of.

43:39
of what I'm here to do in the world. And I think that, and there's always more. And like that's the fascinating part about where I'm at in my life right now is because I've been able to help a lot of people. I've been able to apply my inherent gifts and I've been able to live in purpose, on purpose for really the last seven years. And now I'm being drawn towards

44:09
something that I haven't yet really been able to understand yet. And so I'm doing it differently than I did last time, you know, finance of trying to resist it. I'm really, you know, trying to practice this artist's surrender. And so it's never cut and clear. You know, we're always kind of wading through, I think, trying to find the path. And one of my, and on that, one of my friends,

44:36
His wife was going through late stage cancer and a few days before she passed, she was inaudible. So she would write notes to him and she wrote a note down for him and it said, traveler, there is no path. The path is made by walking.

44:51
And I really think that that cuts against the grain of what is expected in society. It is a mystery to walk your path. It is a mystery, because the path hasn't been cleared. And sometimes it's hard to get over those hurdles to be able to trust that there's something greater happening when so many oppositional forces are in the way.

45:17
I agree. I think, I mean, do things unfold differently though, once you have the experience in which you

45:27
open up or trust yourself or whatever it may be, and then you see the fruits of that labor of some sort. You know, like, okay, I'm letting go of everything, I'm jumping into this, I'm going to uncover something. Oh, that was a good experience. And I think that's like this kind of like reward situation that we're conditioned to. But is it similar in this kind of space where everything is unfolding, everything is ever evolving and there's more and more and more? Is that?

45:55
a similar thing, once you get a taste of it, it's kind of like, okay, this works. Absolutely. I think the realization, the recognition that there are certain facets that in characteristics that you have to continue to practice when you're going through a transition. Because you can go too far, right? Right. Can you? Right. Well...

46:22
Yeah, I mean, I think you can go too far where you let go of too much, right, and put yourself in a position where you can't really operate or, you know, within sort of this defined and agreed upon society. I mean, if you take it way too far, that's how it could show up. But the practice of working with these characteristics of what it takes to be with yourself in transition is equal to, I think, the depth of what...

46:50
you know, you're being called to do. So you have to really trust that there's an evolution happening. And it doesn't always, you know, it doesn't always happen in sort of short order. In fact, you can't really plan for when it's, when it does show up, you just have to, you know, continue to practice to be ready for when it does.

47:12
does in this, in the space that you live in and you are, does the word failure exist?

47:24
Uh, not with the same weight that it carries normally, you know. Right, because you talked about the rejection of like the possible rejection from your father or you know, like growing up and those kind of things. And I kind of vision that this version of you sees that differently. Yeah, I think there's still a part of me that attaches to that, you know, to failure. There's a part of me that doesn't want to fail at what I do. Because you're human? Yeah, right?

47:54
You have faults too? That's weird. Yeah, I have shadow. I still have some traumas that I'm working on and and my big wound my biggest wound is is rejection That's something that I've really struggled with my whole life Still due to this day and and continuing to work on that. And so when you're bringing something that's really, you know Vulnerable and real and feels important to bring to the world. It's it's delicate and

48:23
to present that to the world and have it be rejected is one of the scariest things to do. But to look at that as well as the fear of rejection and the wound of rejection is also just an opportunity to get to know myself on a deeper level and become the person who accepts all parts of myself independent of whether or not.

48:53
somebody else chooses to reject what I have.

48:58
So as you were saying that, I was just realizing this whole conversation that not a part of me thought of the industry that you're in and the space that you're in is regularly rejected by so many. And I'm glad that it didn't cross my mind, but I just realized now that you're saying that that you are living in a space in which it's a constant proof battle, if you will, of like.

49:24
no, this is real and I love that you're working on this legislation and things like that, so that you can work through it. But I also am kind of like pat myself on the back for not thinking that you're in a space that's heavily contested by a lot of people. And I just didn't even think of that, which, hey, you know, this evolving journey. Yeah. And, you know, that part of it is really easy to see in a lot of ways. You can see people's ignorance. Because once...

49:53
It doesn't fit the mold. It is a judgment. Once you're in this space and you connect to it, I mean, my whole, the last seven years of my life, my life's work, like all of this really is proof that it works for people. I've worked with countless people, somewhere over 2,000 people in these spaces and their lives have dramatically shifted. To me, that's one space that I...

50:21
I really just like if people have those beliefs and that's what they want to believe, I've got no problem. Like believe what you want to believe, but I've got anecdotal story after anecdotal story of the ways that these things work. Yeah, and I think that people are starting to open up to what this is. Yeah, I mean, the people that aren't, those aren't the people that you need to talk to about it. They're just not ready. It's kind of like, you know, like we were saying, like therapy, you gotta be ready for it, or you have to be ready to be open enough.

50:50
to face your, because it's probably a fear-based thing that they have. It's something that they've been conditioned to be afraid of and told one way or another. And so you keep doing your life's work with these people around you and kind of making changes. I mean, it sounds like it's changing you a lot, but you're also in process helping thousands of people. What is your favorite part about this life that you lead?

51:23
I think there's two pieces here. One is that I feel like my life has meaning. I know that, yeah. I know that I've helped people, you know, and that could bring tears to my eyes. And the other thing that I really revel in is that I...

51:53
Freedom, you know, I have the freedom to be me. You know, I have the freedom to do the things that I want to do. I have the freedom to go where my heart wants me to go. I have the freedom over my schedule. And you know, and I can be with myself when I need to be with myself. And I can go on an adventure when I need to go on an adventure. And I can serve when I'm called to serve. And so, you know, life has really opened up for me because of that.

52:22
Do you have people in your life from like your before times? And how is that incorporated? Just curious if like, if this is an adventure in which the previous version of James doesn't really exist anymore and those people also feel that way. Hmm.

52:40
And their loss, by the way. You know, it's an interesting thing, is I try not to spend too much time, you know, thinking about what other people think of me, what I'm doing, or... Good for you. Yeah, I try. And I think when I started doing it, I was really quiet about it. I didn't tell many people about it, and then...

53:09
as time went on, really over only over the last six months have I begun speaking out about what I do. And, and it's been, you know, really well received by a lot of people. And, um, I just posted on Instagram, a story about, you know, the evolution over the last seven years for me. And I got a lot of great feedback and people reached out to me for my past and, you know, said that they just love to see where I'm at and what I'm doing. And, uh,

53:38
And that to me is just like a sort of tip of the hat. You know, it's like, I'm glad you found your thing. Yeah, I think it's beautiful to see someone that we know or that we love, like just being, just existing in joy in the space that lights them up. The older version of you or the younger version, I guess, but the previous version of you,

54:08
you probably didn't look so happy going into that, you know, fintech startup or into the building, as beautiful as the view was, that was probably the only beautiful thing about being there, right? And you probably could tell, and people could see that on you. And now I'm sure the difference is quite large in the way that you exist in the world and the light that you show off and those kinds of pieces. So I think there's this like thing that we see if we really truly care about a person, it's like, yeah.

54:39
they live in their best life or the life that they want to live. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just my relationship with myself has changed quite a bit over the last seven years. So, you know, isn't that the most important relationship we have?

54:55
It's really all there is in a lot of ways, and certainly the most, definitely. If there was someone like, I don't know, someone like me, someone that lives in a world where we still feel that the world has some control over us and we still have more boxes that we need to fit in or boxes to check off or whatever it is, is there anything that like

55:25
something simple that we could do to get an inch closer, to get an inch closer to having this relationship with ourselves that you would say from your experience.

55:40
Yeah, I've realized that on this whole path for myself, it was never about adding anything to my life. It was about removing, you know, removing things from my life. And so I guess two things. One is to experiment with removing things from our life that feel heavy and dense. And that...

56:08
helps to clear the way. And then a simple thing to do while you're doing that is, and it's so interesting because it's literally the most simple thing, is your breath. And when we live in this stressful environment, when we live in a tense environment, oftentimes we have a really shallow breath. We either breathe really shallow at the bottom or really shallow at the top.

56:39
And when we breathe deeply down into our bellies and into our diaphragms, whether it's a stressful moment, an emotional moment, a fear-based moment, whatever, if we can be conscious enough to bring ourselves to our breath and have a full breath and soften our belly.

57:01
There's a way in which the true self has more space to be. And if you do that consistently over the course of three months, six months, you begin to see yourself more clearly. And it's from that place that we really begin to attract parts of our life that help to steward us to our purpose.

57:28
So it's like being more in tune with ourselves, obviously through the breath, but it's just like being aware that we're all here and we have all these things that we need to function with. And I think just slowing down that breath can be a good step. You're not the first person that I've ever heard on this podcast say that. It's just as simple as breathing, whether that's actually a structured breathwork class that a friend of mine does, or what you say, just...

57:57
just being present with it and making sure that we're not taking these short breaths and we're listening to ourselves. I think that's great advice. You know, I get these, you gave me a short little bit about your story and never could I have imagined how this conversation would have gone. So first, I just want to say thank you for letting me ask silly questions or bringing up visuals that I have because this is where I grow.

58:27
through curiosity, through asking questions of people's lives that I've not lived, that now I know more, now I can do something different in my life because I've had this conversation with you. So thank you for that. Yeah. I mean, thank you for this conversation. I really appreciated the depth of your question and I felt none of it is silly. I felt it as deep and contemplative. And I just want to...

58:57
that part of you that's willing to do that. Well, thank you. It's been a long journey and I think we have to unfold just as you had to unfold in your journey and open up. My grief journey was decades after my mom died because I didn't have the tools. But once I was able to, I was able to step more into the space where I can be vulnerable and broken and all these things that make me me and I can embrace those pieces.

59:25
And so this podcast has been wonderful in that way. I do love to wrap these conversations up with a question and I'm wondering if you could go back to, I'm gonna put you in that car that I put you in, if you could go back to that version of James, like, you know, trying to get to that space where he can start sharing his gift, but seeing all that resistance, is there anything that this version of James would wanna tell him?

59:51
Um...

59:53
Yeah, just keep pressing on the gas. You know, I really, I wouldn't change a thing. I think the resistance taught me so much and it served a great purpose in hindsight. And I don't know if I would be here where I'm at if I had a different perspective back then.

01:00:17
I agree, I say the same thing and it's jarring when I say it out loud, but you know, like, my mom's death made me the person that I am now and the battle that I had of grief and depression and all the things that came after it made me who I am now and, you know, I wouldn't change things because I don't know who I would be. And so it's important to think that voice, that say it out loud, and I think there are other people out there that have similar feelings and maybe are afraid to like admit that those pieces exist in their lives, so.

01:00:47
Thank you for sharing your story. If people want to learn more about you, connect with you, watch that Instagram story, what's the best way to get in your space and your orbit? Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram. It's at James Eshelman, E-S-H-L-E-M-N, and I'm online at cent Awesome, so they can...

01:01:15
reach out to you if they have questions or they want to be, they want to talk to you in some capacity, they can do it there and we'll share the links in the show notes so that there's easy connection. And, you know, thank you for just being vulnerable and being you and bringing yourself to this strangers podcast and connecting in this way. Yeah, thank you for having me. I just really relish this conversation. It was beautiful.

01:01:43
If there is someone out there listening and you're in a space and you want to connect with James, please do that. If there's someone you know that's in your life that feels like maybe they need to hear something that James shared and maybe it's not his journey specifically, but it's something you heard in this episode. We'd love it if you would share it with them as an indie podcast or any kind of sharing. I appreciate you guys and spreading the word. As I always stated, my main

01:02:12
if he had heard someone else succeed in grieving a lost parent and felt less alone in his experience, then I would love that for someone else listening to this show. So thank you for that. And I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the LifeShift Podcast. Thanks James.