A Hacker's Mind in Cybersecurity | Chris Rock

00:00
I got asked to do a Ted talk in New York back in 2019 about this whole conversation. And then the Ted organizers, I had my approved speech and I was ready to present. And I said, Chris, you've shown us how good a hacker you are but how good a hacker are you really? And so I then hacked into all the Ted speakers, the Ted conference organizers that I'd been interviewed along the way. And I presented their life in a, this is your life. This is your credit record. This is your bank statement. This is like this.

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And they pulled my TED Talk. And for me, I think the biggest shock that I'd ever had was, you've asked a scorpion, you know, to do something and he's stunned you and that's what scorpions do. And for me, that was like, I wouldn't say the word shock, but it was like, wow, you thought you wanted to hear from a cyber mercenary, you didn't actually really want to hear from a cyber mercenary. Today's guest is Chris Rock. Chris is a cyber mercenary and he's a trailblazer in the cybersecurity world.

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His journey is fascinating to me, and it's one that's been fueled by a spirit of defiance and a relentless pursuit of finding his true self. He embodies a unique duality. He's both a hacker and a protector. A couple of the areas that we touch on in this episode are embracing your true identity as Chris did by integrating this hacker persona, or his livelihood, with his cybersecurity expertise.

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We also talk about how defying societal norms can lead to personal growth and career success. And we talk about how that worked for him. And then really the power of introspection, which led Chris to this realization about what his true path and purpose is. His story isn't about the adrenaline-fueled world of hacking. It's really a deeper exploration of embracing all parts of oneself, challenging conventional paths, and really finding success

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on our own terms. Before we start, I want to thank my Patreon supporters. This week, special thanks goes to Traci, Emily, and Miki. Your contributions are really so helpful in bringing these stories to life. For anyone wanting to join the community and enjoy exclusive content, please go to Patreon.com forward slash the Life Shift podcast and you'll find all the information about the different tiers and the t-shirt giveaway.

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and all those other things. So thank you for that support. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Chris Rock. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

02:53
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with Chris Rock. Hey, Chris. Hey, mate. How you going? Good. I told someone that I was recording with you today, but I just said your name. I'm sure you get questions every once in a while. I do. I get all these freaking flies by accident too, so it's win-win. Oh, yeah. So there's some benefit to having the same name as someone that might not be quite as popular as you.

03:21
Do you have any challenges? Are there challenges that come along with that? No, not in my industry. I'm a professional hacker by trade. For me, actually, when I'm talking to somebody, it relaxes my target. So if I'm going through something like customs or dealing with somebody who's more senior than myself, and I'll just take a step back saying, hang on, you're white. And it just puts them off, which does me good favors. I like that you've been able to use it as a.

03:48
Is that kind of a benefit or something that calms you down? It's like a little piece of medicine or. It's a hack. It's kind of a chill pill. Oh yeah, or a hack. I guess we could go in that way. And so we were talking briefly a little bit, briefly before we started recording. And I mentioned to you that you don't do any specific research. However, when we first connect with guests, I asked for like a little bit of information, right? And so.

04:16
The person that connected us gave me a little bit of information. And if I'm being totally 100% honest here, most of it went right over my head in the sense of I'm really interested in hearing your story because a lot of it was like, what does that mean? So thank you for just kind of being a part of this and sharing your story and hopefully a unique way. I love your show. I love listening to all your different guests. They all have a different take on everything. I see common threads throughout.

04:45
which I'll touch on today, but it's great to see experts and just other people and their life story. It's really entertaining. What I've really realized through these really human personal stories is how much we all have in common. No matter what other people tell us are these huge gaps of differences and all these things that people say that we're so different.

05:11
at the core, we're all just people trying to do very similar things on this earth. Exactly. I mean, I was listening to your Lolo podcast yesterday and for me, I just saw, we might call it something different because we don't know the technical term for what we're referring to, whether it be subconscious or pre-conscious or whatever it is, but just having that vein that's like, oh yeah, I have that too. And even you mentioned in the podcast as well that you have the gut feeling or the third eye on a particular, on a topic that leads you.

05:41
Yeah, you know, I probably told her this in that episode. I can't remember now, but it's like part of me, like this show is a little bit selfish for this eight-year-old kid in me who had just lost his mom from an accident and just like felt very alone. Like I was the only kid who ever had a dead mom. And it was like, now I get to have these conversations and go like, oh, other people felt the same way even though they had a different circumstance. So I'm glad that you have those connections to what Lolo had to share.

06:10
You know, it's just, it's been such a fulfilling journey that I can't believe I'm on this little version of me. Anyway, let's get to your story. I think what would be helpful maybe, and you kind of alluded to it, that you're a professional hacker by trade of some sort, or some words like that. But maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are right now and then kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to whatever moment we're going to talk about today. Definitely. So I'm at Cyber Mercenary by trade. So I am paid to do.

06:40
hacking around the world, like particular targets. I'm also a security researcher. So I actually look at holes in systems and then publish those holes so that people can then plug those holes. And I also run a co-founder of a company that produces security software to detect threats in people's networks. So I see myself always as having three roles and that's what I currently do right now, all three. And that, I can imagine how that must paint

07:10
certain picture or something in the sense of like how you think about just any old thing that a lot of people probably don't even give a second thought to you're like wait a second look at all these holes or you're spot on i essentially analyze everything that's said to me or anything that's that i read or have been told i question i you know i don't assume that what they're saying is correct and actually looking to

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why they said that in the first place, you know, to deter maybe that's what they were told. And then I just look for the holes in that system, if it interests me, of course. Do you find that that is of any, I'm sure there's a lot of benefit to that. Do you find any kind of detriment to that in your own like personal wellbeing or happiness? Does that intrude on any of that? No, that's my calling. So for me to do that, I love it. So I live for that. That's essentially what I do.

08:07
So you were made for it. I was definitely made for it. I mean, I'm age 50 now and in one of my roles, I'm taking a lesser role, which was that security company I mentioned last. But my wife said to me, like, what are you gonna do now? It's like, man, I'll do the other two, which I really love, like they're my calling. I can imagine you, do you also like puzzles? Actually, I don't. No? I know I'm supposed to like them, I just can't stand them.

08:34
It just felt like, you know, like you're always trying to probably find these things and put these pieces together, but maybe not in the literal sense. Can't stand them. Hey, yeah. Well, maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to kind of this life shift moment or something that kind of threw your life in a different direction. Yeah, definitely. So look, I'm a child of, I'm a, I've got two siblings, normal suburban family. Your listeners and yourself will know that my accent, I'm not.

09:04
American, Australian. So a normal household, middle income, father was a teacher, stayed home. I paint the picture because I just want to show you where I came from. Computers at that time were not in people's homes at that stage. I didn't get a computer in my home until I was 13. And then as soon as I got one, I just gravitated to it. I was like in front of it, you know, 18, 20 hours a day. That was essentially my calling.

09:27
Security wasn't a job at the time, you were in IT. So when I hit 18, you know, university age, I went to university, I thought, that's what you did. I was essentially following the path. And my father was a teacher. He wanted to be a principal, but he didn't ever got a degree, so he could never be a principal. So he was essentially pushing me down the university track. Now, computer science was what you did back then. There was only one computing degree. And I did it for about maybe a month or two and pulled out. Couldn't stand it, it was the height of the course, pulled out.

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went back the second year, pulled out, same thing, third year and fourth year. I was like, I'm smart enough now that this is not what I want to do. So I went straight into the workforce. I went and worked at a computer shop. Obviously my parents weren't happy that I didn't finish university. It's great, but it's something I wasn't interested in the stuff that I was learning already knew because I've been using computers since I was 13. So that puts me into the mid twenties and that's then when I went into essentially my career, I did 10 years in banks, four different banks in Australia.

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and essentially doing IT for those banks. And that led me up to around about age 30. And that's when, you know, essentially the Pivotal Movement started. Well, before you get there, I think it's so interesting that you kind of hit on that. Like, I feel like you were, you said that you were kind of hitting the check marks or you felt like the next step, you were supposed to go to university and you were supposed to get whatever job and then show everyone that you could hit all the marks. And I, I live that life. I feel like so many of us.

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subscribe to the life that's like, okay, here's what life tells you you have to do and then you do it. So good on you for quitting four times or five times. Yeah, it took four times to realize that look, it probably was five. I still have a university debt that I'm still paying off right now for these unfinished courses. But yeah, and you're right. Some people go through their whole lives following the narrative, you know, you must do this. Lolo mentioned this before, have a family and do this, do that. You just seem to be on a

11:23
conveyor belt, a life conveyor belt, whether you want to be on that belt or not. And some people break off the belt and some people are happy to stay on the belt. Yeah, were you scared to break off the belt or did you feel like you just knew that wasn't what you wanted to do? It's a really good question. I think initially, yes. I turned to something, I turned to meditation, like that Zen meditation. Now, I'm not that kind of guy.

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that does meditation, you know, I'm the worst person. You know what I mean? I'm the, if you look at me, I'm the right side of the spectrum. And for me, that seemed like really weird stuff. And then I turned to it just to, you know, look for some meaning in whether I could break that conveyor belt. And mine was an extreme conveyor belt break because it wasn't just moving from one job to another. And it was just breaking my whole focus that I've had to that point. Well, even just like,

12:17
even just breaking off the belt in the sense of not conforming to going to university or getting the degree or getting the expected job and then the expected promotion and all those pieces. I think that's really big. And if I put myself in those shoes, like I probably wanted to quit college a thousand times, but I knew I couldn't in my mind. Right. I knew that.

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in my mind that society was going to judge me for that and that my dad was going to be disappointed and I was going to let down no one that cared, you know, like nobody really cared. They would have preferred that I went the route maybe like you did in that you knew this wasn't for you. So you jumped into continuing to play with computers and play with IT and find your space there. So, I mean, good for you, but I can't relate. Yeah. And what grade did you end up doing?

13:09
Well, my first degree doesn't really even exist now. Like my first bachelor, my bachelor's degree was in management information systems. And it's like, I remember, you know, like, and nobody talks about that anymore. It would, you know, so I did that. And then I was to the point where I was, you know, immediately went in to get my MBA, my, my master's in business, just because it was offered to me, not because I wanted to, not because anything else. It was just like,

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the next thing. So I'm always inspired by people that kind of like, I know I'm supposed to do this, but I'm not going to. So just wanted to pause and give you kudos for that. Thanks. Thanks. I'm pretty stubborn. So you're working in banking, which I'm imagining is also kind of somewhat preventing people from getting in there and that kind of stuff. We refer to it as blue team. So I was on blue team. So securing banks against hackers from the outside.

14:10
So that was what you like, did you start in that or did you eventually kind of get to that space where they realized you have the skill to do that? Essentially, I was a hacker. I was a hacker. So I was a criminal hacker leading up to that point. So my job was, you know, because there's no job as a hacker, you're either criminal or you're not a criminal. My job was in banking was to stop people from getting in. So that was my, essentially my day job, but my night job was a hacker.

14:39
So how did you balance those two worlds? Very hard. You obviously working in banking sector and being blue team, you can't say that you're a hacker. I mean, most hackers that you talk to today, they talk about, I'm a reformed hacker. I was hacker and now I've gone on to, I've gone on the dark side and now I'm on the light side. And then I'll talk about what they did in the past. And in my industry, it's very common for hackers to say, I did this when I was younger, I'm reformed and now I do this. That's not who I am, but that's who they are. Yeah, so you grew up.

15:08
from the age of 13 when you got the computer, were you always kind of just trying to find holes and trying to, what was the, do you know what the drive was to do that? I think like you said, it was like solving puzzles. I don't like puzzles, but I love these puzzles, if that makes sense. So I love the computer related holes in systems. They were essentially designed in 1965 with not security in mind and just looking for holes in those systems. Yeah, I'm just wondering like, you know, was your life

15:38
You said your life was this middle class normal, if you will, boring. Is that part of it? Was the thrill of doing and not getting caught or potentially getting caught, was there that piece that felt like, this is so boring, I need to do something? I think the thrill of it was finding information that wasn't currently available. So hacking into systems to find out what was out there that was essentially protected, whether it be the latest book.

16:06
the latest game, you know, things that would interest me with the stuff that I, they were told that I couldn't access that I wanted to access. Like pre-Napster almost. Like pre-Napster. Like the illegal version of trying to find things that are out there somewhere, but what did you do with them? Did you sell that? No, no, I wasn't like that. It was essentially just a thrill. I would read it and dispose of it, next target. Well, I think as an American, we think criminal and then we think like.

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you're doing something even more mischievous with it, like that you're selling it or selling private data to someone. It was just the thrill of can I do this? Yes, I can. Let me try something harder. Correct. And then you kind of like were also in parallel. Do a day job. Preventing people from doing what you were doing. Correct. And that's why I was so good at what I was doing because I was preventing people like myself. Did people know?

17:01
They do now. I'm public on what I do. So right. But at the time, did you feel like you were going to get it? No, to boot completely to boot. Because I feel like if I was sitting around sometimes, how did they know how to, you know, do the opposite, right? Like, protect us so much. Why are they thinking about this? I would never have thought of that. And here you are coming in. I did this last night, by the way. Yeah, both sides of the fence. Yeah. So if you're if you're playing both of those lines, what what leads you up to to what?

17:31
your shift was, if this was like going well. The shift was I was denying who I was. So I would, you know, my frontward facing role in society was I am a blue team, a preventative hacker. That's my role. I'm that. But I was dismissing half of who I was. And my shift came by just acknowledging who I was. I'm both. I'm not embarrassed. I'm not scared. I am both these together. And it's funny when you talk about that. People

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in my industry, the hacker industry, that they had that same feeling. That's something that they won't come out with publicly, but they do walk both sides of the fence because they enjoy both sides. So what brought you, was there like a significant, like something that happened that you were like, okay, I'm going to expose this or share this publicly, was there some kind of impetus for you to kind of shift that or bring both sides into the light instead of just one,

18:29
Not the nice light, but just in the daylight. Yeah. I was coming up for essentially my fifth contract at my fourth bank. And I, my manager went up to the CEO that they needed CEO approval because I've been there for so long and they said, we need this guy, myself signed on. We need him to, to, to sign on for another, say three years at our institution. He does a great job. And the CEO came back, which is a great line, by the way, the CEO said to my manager, if he's so good, why doesn't he go and do it himself?

18:57
Like, why doesn't he go and work for himself? And that feedback came back to me. And I'm thinking, she's right. She's absolutely right. And then I then went back and meditated on that discussion and thinking, what is stopping me from doing what I wanna do? Like, who am I? And that wasn't a quick, we talk about pivotal moments and your guests have had some shocking pivotal moments. For me, it was a small expression that led me down that meditation route to work out, who am I?

19:27
Like, what am I, what I've been trying to hide for the last, you know, 20 odd years and just having that discussion with myself on who am I, what makes me tick, and how do I want to present myself going forward in life. Yeah. Well, I mean, before you heard what, you know, the higher up said, had you thought about that? Was that like an option for you?

19:53
Yeah, so I mean I married the right person so essentially my wife I don't think she's a weird brash, but she's very assertive in what she wants and and she gets she's just a natural leader and having been with her and watching her behavior It's almost like gave me permission to do what I wanted to do I didn't have to pretend but when she did something she did something with I'm not gonna say word force But she did something without even thinking twice because she knew in her heart what she's what she needed to do

20:22
And so you asked a good question. So I had by example, someone that I could follow and permission to do what I wanted to do. Yeah, but before that was, were you going to do that? No, no. Or were you content? It was completely taboo. I would have to always hide that part of my life. It would be, you know, nine to five at the bank. And then what I did outside the bank, completely hidden. Yeah, were you getting paid at that time with the stuff on the other side? Yeah. Okay. How does...

20:52
I mean, this is another world. That's another world. And we can discuss that, but that's another world, completely. So there was, you were, it wasn't just for fun anymore, like when you were growing up. No, no, no. You were professional. Yeah, people would say, look, we've got a target. We want to find out what he's doing. We think he's embezzling money. Can you find out for us? Here's the scope, here's the money. Go do what you do and present us with the material. And that's what I would do.

21:19
And they weren't reaching out to Chris Rock. They were reaching out to some kind of hidden entity. Correct, there's always a middle man who would take a cut. Right, and so you wanted to bring that other entity and your real presenting self to the world together here, but kind of society was still telling you like, you can't, it's taboo, we can't do that. And I kind of think of that, or the way you describe it, the way when you heard

21:48
almost like permission from an external source of like why, if they're so good, why aren't they doing it themselves? Is almost like that like, oh, I should be. Like this like almost, it is kind of like this shift in approach or I don't know, maybe confidence. It's not confidence, but it's like a possibility. Yes, spot on. It's essentially the first card, when we talk about pivotal moment, it's the first card that drop.

22:17
which then I could then look internally to go, who are you and how do you want to present yourself to the world and then go forward forcefully or assertively and do what you want to do without hiding. Yeah, that's fascinating because, and I think it is because I also like on the flip side, think, do you think that you would have eventually done that had you not heard that statement or would have been farther down the road or maybe not at all? I don't think, I think I would have

22:46
been less of who I am today and less who I would have been in the future. So the answer is there may have been some sort of shift, but less of a shift. Or like you said, I may have hit that like all my other info sec people, info security people hackers out there who would not go public with this information. Yeah. Cause I feel like, you know, if I don't see that, I mean, I understand logically that this an opportunity for me, I could do this. It is possible. I know it's taboo, but they're still like, I'm sure.

23:14
Were you the first one to ever do this? I'll never claim to be the first. Could be. It's not the ego thing for me. It was essentially, like I said, I looked internally, like who am I? And then I got an answer. Like an internal answer just said, you're a fucking hacker. And for me, when I got that internal response, for me, that was just like, boom. My career just skyrocketed based on me just functioning on who I'm supposed to be.

23:41
It's like that practice of, you know, you at first you're like, I'm not a meditation, not for me, but the more you do it, and the more comfortable and you find your own way of meditating, right, I'm assuming there's probably a unique way for you that works that is effective, apparently, and then you hear something that tells you keep going. Exactly. For me, and I'll never preach to anyone, but for me, it was like Zen meditation. Other people do.

24:10
hypnosis other people you know listen to their gut feeling their third eye whatever they do for me was essentially listening listening to my subconscious like my conscious is me reading books watching tv hacking all that sort of stuff but my subconscious is what i bring in but don't actually bring to the surface i was actually you know touching in on my subconscious saying but my subconscious brings in more data than my conscious it stores my whole life

24:37
Can I draw in on that and get some information that maybe my conscious is not aware of? And then I got an answer. And you got the answer and it was like, let's go. Let's go. And my career, like I said before, it just went bang. And I've presented all around the world, been asked to do Ted Talk, the whole thing based on just letting go of who I am or who I thought I was and just going full steam ahead on I am a hacker. Leaning into your true.

25:05
purpose and joy and the things that fulfill you without shame. Correct. Correct. Because you didn't have shame behind the scenes, but there was some kind of societal shame that you were wearing like a jacket. I was in the closet. Yeah, you're just throw this off and like, let's go. What was that first like, when I mean, to go with your coming out of the closet kind of thing. What was that first like, coming out of?

25:34
this darkness that you were hiding, just letting it all out. What was that first experience like? Or did you just like, here's my website, here's what I do? For me, it was liberating. It was a lightening of the load. It was essentially, I don't give a fuck what you think. I don't think if it's against the society, I don't think if you think I'm a criminal, this is who I am. And right or wrong, this is who I am and I will go forward doing what I wanna do. So for me, it was liberating. How'd you do it?

26:04
Did you post it on Facebook? I think it was more of a subconscious. My first thing I presented to the world on how that you could kill somebody virtually, so you could kill them and birth them virtually. I presented to the world on how you could circumvent the system without actually telling the authorities how to fix it. That was my first public outing.

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For example, when you die, the doctor comes, fills out some paperwork, gives it to the funeral director, fills out more paperwork, and then you're dead. But now that's moved electronically. So I found flaws in that system and I published them without notifying any authorities that this could be done. So that was essentially my first. So in true form, it was like a digital release of some sort. Correct. That other people, was this something that you promoted or was it more like you put it out there and it kind of grew legs of its own?

26:58
legs of its own. This is presented at the largest hacking conference in the world in Las Vegas in front of 30,000 hackers. Then the media picked up on it and then it just went. Okay. So it was a big to do. It was a big to do. Okay. I was going to say, I was thinking like, maybe you were just dipping your toe in the waddo but you're going and presenting at a giant conference. But then I'm sure the reaction and all the stuff that came after that was like a further like...

27:24
Yeah, you're doing the right thing. It was an affirmation. It was an affirmation of A, you've done it, B, you've got the balls to do it, and C, this is step one of your second career, if I want to call it that one. Yeah, was there a part of you, I feel like, I don't know why I would assume this feeling, but was there a part of you that was like, damn, I wish I had done this sooner? I suppose it didn't really matter. Okay.

27:51
I don't want to sound like, sound wanky. It's just, it doesn't, it doesn't really, I'm 50 and you know, I've got another 30 odd years before whatever, it didn't matter whether I was 30 or 20 or 50, for me it was just like, I've got there. Would it have been nice to have done it earlier? No, I think it made the coming out even better, having, you know, such a buildup. Yeah, I don't know, I feel, I like to assume as much shame as possible apparently. And so it'd be like, damn.

28:17
Had I done this 10 years ago, look, I wonder where I would have been, you know, and then assume all the things that don't matter because it's in the past. I shouldn't really care. No, you shouldn't. But since it's my podcast, I like to just say these things out loud for everyone to know about. That's right. So, but, you know, so you have this conference, you told everyone, look, this is who I am. Did you also include like the things you were doing on the outside professionally? Um, that came straight after. When people saw.

28:47
what I could do with this in my industry when you find an exploit as a pro info set professional, you're not supposed to publish it without notifying the authorities first. It's almost like a taboo. Like if you find the vulnerability and say, you know, iTunes or, you know, a website, you're supposed to divulge it to them and give them three months to fix it. And then you can then say, when they fixed it, then you can say, is the issue. And you can publicly release it to say, you know, he's the holes.

29:16
The vendors fix it, clap, clap, clap, everyone's happy that you found it and they fixed it. That's the normal process. Whereas I did a system where you could kill, essentially kill anybody in the world. It's not an Australian system, it's not a US system, it's worldwide, that you could kill anybody or birth the fake people without me notifying authorities first. But I mean, who were you supposed to notify on that? And who makes that rule? Government departments. It's an internal rule. It's almost like, you know, if you're a doctor, is he... It's a code. The code. It's like Boy Scouts Honor.

29:45
Correct. But because I was walking both sides of the fence, I didn't have to follow a code. So where did you go from there when that conference, like, I guess that conference was like the confirmation that you're doing the right thing? So I backed it up with another speech the following year. So I then did a talk on how to throw a government digitally. I worked with a coup mercenary, a physical mercenary, who'd done coups in Africa. And him and I did a presentation on how to throw a government.

30:14
by hacking into government systems and all that sort of stuff. And essentially my work led into the Middle East where I started doing work for for cutments there and private companies there on things that they wanted to do, essentially that other side of the work. Wow. And so the feeling built and you were reminded that the more you lean into your purpose, your joy, the things that you know you're good at.

30:42
the more confirmation you got and the farther you got down the line. I mean, if we equate this to something that people can relate to, you know, like, because I don't think there's a lot of, well, then maybe there are. Are there a lot of people in your space? Yeah, spot on. So I try to, without getting all philosophical, they call it Buddha nature. And that means your true nature. Like when you see a dog chasing a fox and it just, it's all of a sudden something clicks and it just does what it does.

31:12
That's called it's Buddha nature and then when you you know, you doing your podcast and that's your natural fire You can see that's your natural calling Leo just comes across. This is your natural calling we call that Buddha nature So for me doing you know, the hacking that is my what called my Buddha nature. I don't have to think I don't have to question I don't have to there's no conscious thought involved. It is straight subconscious acting when you're so involved in that and your passion and

31:40
I'm just thinking like, how do you put limitations on yourself so you don't burn out, so you don't, like I feel like if you're just so in the zone, you could lose all the other pieces of like real life. Does that ever happen to you? Or do you know how? It doesn't. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I'm also a father of four. I haven't mentioned that in this call. So I still have that life. I don't.

32:09
turn hacker on and turn father off. And I love spending time with my kids. Does it influence my kids? Yes, like for example, you know, I certainly I try to push them off the conveyor belt during their path. Yeah, so I've got kids at university and whatever. And I deliberately don't try to, you know, push them because they're not ready, you know, they're 24, you know, 22, 18 and 16. But I also ask them to question what they're doing. And I promote them doing things like philosophy and.

32:38
Is this something you really want to do for the next 40 years of your life? Just really have a think about it. Now's the time to have a think. So to answer your question in a roundabout way is, I think the balance comes naturally for me. I mean, it sounds great. And it sounds like you can also serve as a source of inspiration for your children in a sense of like, like, like dad is leaning into what really serves him and serves other people and.

33:06
is super passionate about it, I hope I can find something like that. Do you see that in your kids? I definitely see that. And they'll watch my presentation and a bit like you, they'll only understand a certain portion of it. But they know that the pinnacle of my industry or the focus that I have on my career, that they see that. And I see them in doing their own thing with that extreme focus as well. Well, you cannot probably... They can probably also see...

33:34
the joy that it brings you or like the sense of satisfaction that that your career brings you now. And I think there's something that's subconsciously really fulfilling for an offspring to see, you know, their parent do. You're spot on. Because I feel like, especially in America, I don't know how it is in Australia. But in America, I think so many people have been on this performative, societal checklist journey of their life. And

34:05
Not a lot of us are fortunate to see the people around us and our families doing something that really truly brings them joy or leaning into a career that maybe is not textbook, that's not, you know, and that you've created kind of your own pathway for this. A lot of us grew up with parents and grandparents that were like, I hate my job. And they came in every day from work and

34:29
And we absorb that, not on purpose. Nobody's trying to taint our experiences. It was just like, this is what life is. This is what we've grown. So I can imagine even not intentionally doing it, you're inspiring your children and the people around you to be like, one, it's never too late to do whatever the hell you want. But two, if you really lean into that thing, whatever it is.

34:54
you could really make something of yourself. You're so right. And that leads back to when I was talking about the subconscious. You know, I mean, the subconscious, you know, your conscious thoughts might remember your father or your mother or your grandparents coming in, but your subconscious brings that, all that information in. So you've actually got a bigger mind than what you think you do. And just by tapping in that subconscious and saying, is this the right path for me? And you'll get a different answer than having your book.

35:20
brain conscious thoughts do. And what I've learned from that is I don't let my conscious thoughts make any decisions. I let my subconscious make all the decisions. So for example, if I'm doing something boring, such as a price model for a product, I'll essentially write down, I'm doing a price model for a product and just leave it. I will come back to it in a week's time. I will not think about it any more time. And I'll just let my subconscious come to the surface on what is the simplest price model for a product. And then my subconscious will just tell me the answer. And I was like, oh, that was easy. And it takes the stress off.

35:50
having to complexly complex algorithms and Excel spreadsheets and boring shit. My body, my mind knows the answers, but my conscious mind just screws everything up. So all of that ability that you just described as far as like letting your subconscious kind of guide the decision making or even make the decisions in a way, that is fairly, because you said early on in your life, you started to meditate like.

36:18
when you were dropping out of high school, college or university. And so is that like a fairly newer decision making process for you? Like from the time when you were like exposed on your own doing? So I'm 50 now. So this was, you know, back in my 20s. So when you say newer, I think I've harnessed it over the last probably, say, five to eight years. But it's been around. And, and, and when I see an artist who, you know, have a, when I say an artist, someone like a, like your guest.

36:48
you know, whether I have a notepad beside their desk, and they'll write, you know, they'll write something before they go to sleep, because they won't remember it when they wake up, or they'll have a notepad in the car, that that that subconscious thought coming through before they go to bed when you know, when you're just drifting off to sleep, I find that that's so important. So the beauty is it takes the stress off everything you do not have to don't get me wrong, you need to read, you need to research need to learn. But you read read coming in, and then just leave it.

37:15
And then 95% of your brain, which is essentially your subconscious, will do the rest of the workflow. Yeah. What's the biggest difference between you now and the way that you operate compared to when you were still doing all the same kind of things, but you were hiding part of you for everyone's eyes to see? It's a good question. I think because I started when I was 13, I didn't have to hide anything. So my pre-adult.

37:44
was a natural form of hacking at 13. Cause at that, we're talking 37 years ago. So no one cared about hackers back then. But when I hit the adult, you must do this, you must do that. You know, parents that went to church, you must, you know, all of a sudden you're an adult and you've got to do the thing. That screwed my path. And then I then unscrewed it for a better work, you know, in my mid to late 20s. Were you as content or happy when you weren't?

38:14
showing your full self? Uh, no. I wasn't at all, only because it was half of who I was. Did you, I mean, I talked to a lot of people about this, my self experience, did you have, because you felt that you had to hide that portion, did you ever experience any kind of like, depressive states or anxiety or any of those elements in your life? Or was it just like, this is uncomfortable, but whatever? Not consciously. And what I mean, I don't want to sound like a stupid, I mean, a lot of people.

38:42
you know, whether it be depression, all that stuff. I'm so stubborn that even if I was, I wouldn't admit it to myself. So if you'd asked my wife, she might've said, oh yeah, back when you were 30, between that and that age, I can see it, but I'm too stubborn for my brain to absorb that. That's just my nature. That must be quite an experience there. Yeah, it's very relaxing. In your world, like what is your day, I mean, don't give me all the details, but like what is a day-to-day life for you look like now?

39:12
you're being sought after to tell more stories and things like that as well. Yeah. So I did a talk last year. So I did. I've been doing some research for the last four years on IEDs and jammers. So, you know, IEDs in Iraq or Afghanistan getting exploded and then jammers, how jammer technology works. So I was tasked to have a look at if I could circumvent a jammer and IEDs could then be blown up in a jammed environment. So I spent the last four years of my life just focusing on getting around that.

39:41
I presented that last year, these talks are all online on how to do that. Essentially, like you said, I look for holes in system and then I present them. And then people then have the ability to fix those holes if they want to. A lot of time, most governments don't fix it because it's too hard. Yeah. So something like that, four years looking into that, that's something that an organization, a government of something has reached out to you to investigate? Or is that something that you choose to do on your own? I chose this one. I chose on my own. So usually what will happen is...

40:11
because I work with certain governments, I will, the perfect example said what happened was Julian Assange, you know Julian Assange, he was in the Ecuadorian embassy in the UK and he was being jammed but he couldn't communicate outside of the embassy. And I then got an interest in jammers, how do jammers work? How do they block the frequencies? What don't they block? You know, what frequencies do they not block underneath? So I started going in head deep into how jammers work.

40:39
only because I was interested in the technology that we're using. Along the way with my research, I would then talk to government departments along the way about, have you looked at this? Have you looked at that? You know, so there'd be a communication back and forth and also private companies as well to lead up to that part. So you were doing what the scouts honor to like, let them know that there could be some holes and things like that. That's correct. Especially when you're talking about like like troops getting killed and stuff like that.

41:07
So it sounds like a lot of the things you do really come from that initial interest, your own interests, and then you kind of uncover these things and then you bring it to them. You're spot on. And the first talk that I did was actually I was watching the news and it was an Australian news article where they published that 200 people who are supposed to be discharged from hospital had actually been declared dead from leaving hospital. So someone had done and ticked the wrong box instead of letting them discharge, they click dead and then actually killed 200 people virtually, of course.

41:37
off the system. I think how could that actually happen? So that led me down, you know, the rabbit warren of the death and the birth industry. I mean, I love that not the topic I love that, that you like legitimately just get interested in something like something happens. And then you're like, I can actually make a career out of something I'm interested in.

42:01
using the skills that I have. It's like fascinating to me and I love that for you. I'm so lucky. I can, you know, I'll wake up at like six in the morning and I'll sit in front of a computer and I'll just start. I call it, we call it working, but I mean, I'm having fun. And if I've been knock off at 11 o'clock at night or 12 o'clock at night, I don't care whether it's Monday or Sunday, like it makes no difference to me. I just love what I do. Yeah, no, and that is, I think, rare. I mean, I don't know. I don't know a lot of people that, I'm sure at some point it feels like work.

42:31
What part of it feels like work to you? Nothing? Putting the presentation together? No, I love that too. I love that too. Because remember, like you said, when you were presenting with some material, a lot of it went over your head. My job, and I obviously failed in your case, is putting it in a format that is digestible for everybody. And so I just can't assume that everybody has just been working on jammers for the last four years and working with electrical engineers. So I then have to go and talk to other people, you know, the public about what.

43:01
Do you understand this? No, I don't. Okay, dumb it down. So I enjoy that part too, of communicating the story. That's like another hacking of some sort. It's mind hacking. And that's why I gravitated to this meditation because it's like, man, I've got this sub-brain doing all the work. Why aren't I using it? That's, you know, I'm lazy by nature. So let that do it. Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you're very dedicated to your curiosity.

43:30
Yes, and what I mean lazy in life is like, you know, how many trips do I need to make from the car with bags of shopping, you know, I'll carry 12 bags and drop two instead of two trips, you know, that sort of behavior. Well, if we're talking about grocery shopping, I tend to put all the bags on one hand and then I have one thing in the other hand. I'm like this, I really didn't think this one through, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. You're not, you're not. Yeah. No, I hate saying that I'm so like shocked that someone could find something in which

44:01
their curiosity could lead them, you know, I mean, you have a lot of skill, clearly, to be able to not everyone could have a lot of people are curious, a lot of people can't do what you do. I think it's just, it's just focus. It's not skill. It's focus. Anyone can. I'll give you an example. My wife said to me, I heard something about I heard something about baby shark. I thought what the hell is this baby shark crap? And she said, you must be the only planet person on the planet not to have a baby. Because I'm just solely focused. He put something

44:30
someone in front of a computer for 19 hours a day for four years, you know 360, that's 1200 days, anyone can do it.

44:39
I don't agree, but we'll agree to disagree here because I think you have a lot of skills that you taught yourself. I'm sure you've learned from other people in your orbit of some sort, but the focus I'm sure is definitely helpful, but I don't think that everyone can do it. I think that's fascinating. If we distill it down to a moment of you were...

45:06
doing stuff and you were on the path, you were kind of doing the things you liked, but also the things you felt you had to do. And there was like this little voice out there, some person that was just like, why don't you just do it on your own? Yeah, and that is the trigger to bring everything into line. Yeah, it's that whole butterfly effect kind of thing. It's just a little tiny flap of the wings and.

45:31
You could have heard it on a different day and maybe felt a little bit differently about it or heard it in a different tone or from a different person. And maybe it wouldn't have done the same thing. I agree. Yeah. No, it's fast. It's so crazy. Because you've been doing this since you were a teenager, essentially. And when you were a teenager, did your family know that you were doing this stuff? No, for them, that was a kid that was happy in front of a computer, just leave him alone. And I was lucky enough to have

46:00
He's quiet. I've got other kids. I've got my other interests. He's happy. I'm just leaving him be. He's the computer guy. He's just that guy. I see it in my kids as well. They've got that hyper focus where they'll just sit in front of a computer and they'll do what they're doing and you just leave him be. Why would you let sleeping dogs lie? I know you've mentioned the word, you said

46:30
relationships around you or people that you knew the idea. I mean, I don't know if it's the same connotation in the United States. I think a lot of people are, will look at that and just completely wipe someone off the board. Did you have any of that? No, I got respect. So I had organizations who will, I can't give you their names, but they would essentially say, we're glad you've come out. We see the bullshit for other people said I'm a reform hacker and now I'm this.

46:58
We actually like it that you're on both sides of the fence because you can actually bring us intelligence to this side of the conversation because you don't normally talk to a criminal to find out what they're looking for in a system. So I can then present, I present to banks now, I present to banks to say, this is what I'm looking for when I'm trying to target you. This is what you're gonna look out for. I'm not after you personally. You're just one step in a hop for me to penetrate your employees network.

47:25
So you embrace that word? Oh, completely. I embrace it. I use the word mercenary, and the only way I use the word mercenary, I hate the hack, is hacker, the word even in my industry is changing. When you think of the word hacker, do you think of the word criminal?

47:40
I think of movies. Yeah, exactly. And most people do, and that's criminal, and that's okay. But in my industry, they're trying to, well, they're going back from a word that was used, I think in the 70s, where hacker was somebody that likes to use, to program or to play with computers. And that's completely fine. But even in my industry, if I said I'm the word hacker, that's not saying I'm a criminal. So I have to use the word criminal, hacker or mercenary to show what I do is not to differentiate for the sake of differentiation.

48:09
But just to highlight this is what I do. Yeah, would you say that most or what percentage of what you do has the end goal of something that is positive or for the betterment of people? I'm probably 50-50. Okay, so there are things that you do that are seemingly on the surface, not pleasant.

48:36
Yeah, definitely. But you've always got to put yourself in the mind of, for example, if an American journalist is in a prison and is being held captive and she needs feminine hygiene products, and then I can, because the governments don't want to deal with that, if I can pay a Libyan guard to make sure that she gets these products via Bitcoin,

49:02
That's a criminal act on the Libyan side, the American side, the Australian side, whatever the hell you wanna deal with it. But the fact is she's essentially getting what she needs. So is that criminal? Yes. I'm at the state, I just don't care. You know what I mean? Like for me, it's like, it's a law for the sake of being a law. But I would not see that, I would see that as something that is for the general human good. Correct, correct. But if I wanna be a stickler.

49:30
then I'll say that's criminal, but does it keep me up? And I'll say it really well, if I'm doing that sort of activity. Yeah, because I mean, the way that you presented, the reason I asked that question is the way you present, I assume, which I know people have told me what assuming does, but I assume that there is an intention of end result being good for people and not harming people, whether that breaks the law, criminal, whatever.

49:59
throw that piece away, but the sense that you're not out there, or I'm assuming, like this example you gave me, that's to help another human. So there's a human quality to it. Correct. And you're not just like finding ways to mass kill everyone. No, exactly. And I'm not robbing bank after bank after bank and moving money. There's nothing. Yeah, nothing like that at all. But again, you know, anything if you're hacking into another country doing something like that, it's criminal activity.

50:28
Yeah, and I totally understand that. And I think that to your point, some laws are laws for the sake of being laws or rules because some man over there said that that had to be a rule and not doesn't make any sense because, you know, whatever, we go through that a lot here in the United States. Yeah, you do. And Matt, and that touches on what we talked about right at the start of the conversation.

50:51
When I'm told something, I question it. Like, does that sound like a reasonable law that this woman can't get what she wants? She's just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Political porn, release her, and then we'll release all Libyans from this Middle Eastern jail. For me, that's just stupid. And then I will then dismiss that as a law and then make sure she gets what she needs. Yeah, I love it. You know, well, as much as I said, I just love breaking glass.

51:17
But no, I mean, I think that at the heart of what you do is to help others by exposing things that they didn't know existed or holes that they didn't know existed. And now out in the open, it sounds like there's a lot, even more of you trying to let those people know that this is the problem and they can probably fix it so that it's not a problem. So that more than just you won't do it.

51:47
Exactly. And that's when we talked about that 50 50. For example, do you want to be in a world where there's 100,000 virtual people in America that don't exist because you virtually birthed them. They're now 18 years old, they have a credit record, they can, you know, essentially get a firearms license, they get a driving license, they can do whatever, but they don't physically exist. And then your children or your sister, your brother or your whatever cousin wants to buy a vehicle from this person doesn't exist, you pay money to this person that doesn't exist. And all of a sudden,

52:16
that money is now gone, that person never existed. And this person then can be declared dead. You can then get insurance payout on this dead person, and then the criminals then get this, all of this money starts hitting the insurance industry. And that's why I essentially published that material back in 2015, it was. So basically you're saving the world one case at a time. Exactly, and for me, that was a detrimental one that, yeah, I don't want my kids dealing with that stuff.

52:43
buying cars off people that don't exist. And it sounds like it stems all from like your personal curiosity and things that bother you or things that so I mean, I love this journey for you and and hearing about it. And it can parallel so many other people. You know, in a sense, in a different industry or a different passion or whatever it may be, there's a lot of parallels that can be taken from your story. We're not here saying like everyone needs to do what you do. But

53:14
everyone should lean into what feels right, what serves them, what drives them, and kind of go in the direction that you went with your own. And it doesn't even matter, it doesn't even have to be a career. It can be like a mother of three children who loves raising children, and that's what she loves doing, and she focuses in on that. Good point. She doesn't need a career, doesn't need this, doesn't need that. Is this her true calling, is the answer? She says, this is my true calling, or a father, a single father.

53:43
That's a true calling. Just fucking run with it. You can't go wrong following your gut. Drop the shame. Completely drop the shame. Drop any of the activities. And it comes back to, do you care what this person thinks? And you should not care what somebody else thinks. It's very hard. It is. It's very hard. But if you're sure in what you're doing, it's just noise. And I came out for the whole industry to say, why is this guy saying he's a hacker?

54:12
and do I care or is it the right thing to do? To me it was the right thing to do. I don't really care. People have now come around to that sort of behavior but you shouldn't have that shame on what you love doing. Yeah, is it interesting to you now that people revere you for what you do when for so long you kind of hid it behind the scenes? It does. And the reason I smile for those who are watching the video, the reason I smile is I got asked to do a tech talk in New York back in 2019 about this whole conversation.

54:39
And then the Ted organizers, I had my approved speech and I was ready to present. And I said, Chris, you know, you've shown us how good a hack you are, but how good a hacker are you really? And so I then hacked into all the Ted speakers, the Ted conference organizers that were that I'd been in, you've been interviewed along the way. And I presented their life in a, in, you know, this is your life. This is your credit record. This is your bank statement. This is like this. And they pulled my Ted talk. And for me, I think the biggest shock.

55:08
that I'd ever had was you've asked a scorpion, you know, to do something and he stung you and that's what scorpions do. And for me, that was like, I wouldn't say the word shock, but it was like, wow, you thought you wanted to hear from a cyber mercenary. You didn't actually really want to hear from cyber mercenary. Yeah. Don't ask the question you don't want the answer to. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's, like I said, I came into this conversation like what, like, I don't understand, but.

55:38
It's very simple on the surface of not what you do, but what you do in your life, and the way that you do it, and the way that it serves you, and it serves the people around you, and there's something to be taken from that. You know, if this version of you, which doesn't sound too different than it, but this is kind of how I like to bring these conversations to a close, but if this version of you, with all that you know, being out in the public and sharing all this information, could go back to...

56:08
the Chris that was about to sign another contract or really just wanted to keep going down that road. Is there anything that you would nudge him to do or say anything to him? No, just follow the path. And like I said to you at the start of the conversation, not to go on a tangent, but your guests all touch on it. They've been that moment in their life, whether it be a death or whatever, they come back to what do I do now? All of a sudden they have to think about what's the next part of their life.

56:36
and in some it's very difficult, more difficult than what I've had to do. But my point is, is they find their way. And I see a vein all through your talks and I love listening to your talk because- Well, thank you. Yeah, it's very enjoyable. And your listeners, you must have a great audience because that vein must resonate for a lot of people. Yeah, it's true. Even for myself, I've just recently in the last year or two taken the word

57:06
Like I used to be forced to tell people that my mom passed away in an accident. She was killed in an accident. And so I've taken that word back and we have these conversations around this. And even though it was such a tragic thing and it happened to me at such a young age and it happened to her at such a young age, knowing what I know now, the experiences that I've been through now, the person that I am now, I am this way because of all the things that came after that moment.

57:35
And so going back, I don't think I would change things because I don't know where I would be. I don't know what that situation would be. And it's so terrible to say out loud, but it's truthful. So I agree with you that there's this vein of like, life just has to unfold in the way that it's unfolding. And you said you I.E. yourself at the time.

57:55
So the beauty is your conscious hadn't started, your real conscious hadn't started until your, essentially the first seven years. So your subconscious has all those great memories just tapped of all that knowledge of her. It's been a journey and I appreciate you coming on and sharing this and being so open about something that I think a lot of people, like you said.

58:21
play this game like I used to be this or I was reformed this. And you're like, no, I still am. I'm doing the damn thing. And I don't need to be performative. And I don't need to impress anybody. And I just need to do what I'm doing. And I appreciate that honesty and that drive. And I hate the word because it's overused, but the authenticity that comes across of, this is what it is. This is straight up what it is. I'm not sugarcoating it. I'm not.

58:50
pretending it's something that it's not, and I think that's really refreshing. So thank you for that. My pleasure. And it's just clean. It's just a clean, when you're doing something that you love, it's just, for me, it's just clean. Whether I'm doing something criminal or not, it's just a clean, because it's, like you said, authentic. It's natural. Yeah, it doesn't look like you have to work very hard to... You said you're lazy, so... Yeah. If it has to be work to be somebody else, why do it?

59:20
Exactly. But that's a good lesson. I think it is an important lesson for someone. You know, I'm early 40s, and my experience, in my generation, was very much you had to perform to certain standards of all people, and you have to pretend, you know? Like, if you don't fit in the mold, then you're not going to get anywhere. And so I think it's just... We're at a place where I think that there are more people doing what you do in the sense of, like, really being true.

59:47
themselves and what they want to do and I think there's a lot of value there. If people want to like watch your, not your Ted Talk, but people want to watch your presentations or read about you more, what's the best way to get in your orbit without being hacked by you? Yeah, if you just go to my website, chrisrockhacker.com, you'll see all my presentations and books and articles and you'll find everything there. Do you interact with people if they like?

01:00:15
Yeah, people write to me all the time. I've got people saying, you know, I'm sick of my government. Can you overthrow me or do all these other stuff? But I love talking to... I've had people who've had... They've been killed off virtually. So, you know, my ex-husband killed me off virtually, and now I am with, you know... I can't get a driver's license, I can't get a passport. Can you birth me? Yeah. Exactly. Can you rebirth me? Are people afraid to connect with you?

01:00:42
They are, they are. But like I said, you've got to have motivational interest. I've got, you know, I get a lot of people contacting me. I've gotten, you know, please email me. I'll give you a link. It's clean. Don't worry. I'm not interested. Well, and just for people that are only listening to audio there, I don't think there has been a moment except for when your phone went off that you didn't smile in this whole conversation, you know? And I think that's, there's something to be said about that. I think it's...

01:01:10
You know, I think, like you said, what do you think of when you think of Hacker? You think of these movies and you think of these moody, kind of like, mad, angry kind of thing. And you've just been so, like, seemingly happy through this whole conversation. And I think that that's a nice, refreshing take. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So we'll have we'll have all those links in the show notes so people can connect with you or get in your orbit or just like run really far.

01:01:37
Whatever feels right for them, I appreciate you though, and for sharing your story on the Life Shift podcast. It really means a lot. Thanks, Matt, and thanks for all your listeners. And to the listeners, if you enjoyed this episode or you were really inspired by what Chris had to share, if you could send it to a friend that might wanna listen to it or wants to hear a little bit more about what Chris is doing, we would appreciate that. And with that, I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Chris. Thanks, Matt.

01:02:17
For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com